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Me, Ms. Tessa?
I may agree with Ms. Tessa, in a way, but I hope I would have chosen my words, or, word, more carefully if I were her.
No, I'm just Mary Kay Linden, and there's very little in my life I'd use the word "disgusting" for...
Almost nothing, in fact.
You have to be careful in redefining marriage. Words have power. You can potentially change the context of the society you live in. This can be dangerous. Think long and hard before changing a social paradigm.
I didn't like Tessa's attitude and what she wrote, it didn't sit well with me, and it immediately told me that she was not only young, but " angry ", angry with herself and about herself, and as someone said .. she just wanted to " rant ".
She also seems confused. And I don't accept her tone and her insults. So.. basically I will just say my piece....actually to give my :2c:.
I have been married for a long time, will be 40 years next year, and been crossdressing since age 8. I didn't tell my wife when I met her, simply for fear of being rejected, for fear of losing her. Because she is a product of our society, and our society does not accept crossdressing and most people ( my wife included ) do not really understand the mechanics of crossdressing, and the issues relating to it. Therefore, in order to avoid problems, serious problems I might add, lots if not most cds decide to keep it a secret, and crossdress in secret or in private when they are alone. In my case, as I got older, I noticed that my desire to crossdress grew and got more intense each time. I have to say I loved to crossdress from the first moment I started doing it, but as I got older, not only did I like it more and more but I found myself needing it more and doing it more. It also started to occupy more of my time, I started to think about it more and more . I'm not complaining btw, not at all .
Eventually the day came when all of a sudden, the opportunity was there for me to come out and tell my wife about my passion. And I did ! It happened when she was throwing out some old pantyhose and stockings, and she said just get rid of all these nylons and throw it in the garbage, and I instinctively blurted out " NO....!!!Please don't...... and I heard myself say to her...... I want to wear it......please don't throw it away ".
It was that fast.......and she was surprised to say the least. And confused. But she didn't get angry, she actually told me she wished I had said something about me being a cd when we first got married. But....one can't undo the past as they say......
Today she knows I cd, she is not crazy about the idea, she would much rather I be a " normal macho " husband, but she knows I can't be that. So we don't talk about the subject, but we both know its there.
I don't feel I deceived her, I don't feel I betrayed her. Not at all. If we lived in a more tolerant and better society I would have definitely told her of my passion for crossdressing. No question. But I loved her from the moment I met her and I still do today. I am just trying to find a way to balance my life, keeping her happy as she deserves to be and also taking care of my love to crossdress, which happens to be very important to me.
I hope I made sense here .....I would love to get girls's thoughts on this... I feel its so very important to communicate and exchange thoughts.
I love this forum, simply love it and I welcome any comments........
Michelle
@Miss Tessa:
It's not as simple as saying that CDers should be open and honest with their wifes.
From reading this forum over the the last year and 1/2, it's my distinct feeling that many people here did not really "get out and about" until after the signing of the marriage papers.
And I have seen more than one person in this forum go the honesty route, only to have their marriage disolve, which normally drives the guy into deep depression. Not good.
I can barely keep my marriage together as it is. Outing myself, even to just my wife, would surely kill what little candle light remains.
Everyone is different.
As for me, I am quite sure I could not handle the depression of a breakup on these circumstances. Maybe others can, but I'm sure that I can't.
I congratulate those with the strength, tenacity, and courage to be reveal this side of themself to their wife, and hope that massive understanding follows.
So, TFN, I will continue to peek out the closet door to see what life is like out there.
Regards.
Who is redefining marriage?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaM
Please read my posts about other cultures.
I have close aborigninal relatives even though I am not myself aboriginal.
I have met people from a wide variety of cultures and I have family members who are Anthropologists and have discussed this issue with a number of Athropologists.
If anyone is redefining marriage it's the people who are trying over a handful of centuries to impose an exclusive heterosexual monogamy on a practice and institution of varied polgamy, varied duration and mult-sex marriage traditions that worked successfully in my country for over 50,000 years.
So please Amanda, stop redefining marriage. Your definition is extremely recent, comes from only a tiny proportion of the worlds cultures and has caused misery to countless millions of people who have been denied their traditional marriage practices and discriminated against and made second-class citizens in their own lands when it was imposed over them by force.
It is your definition of marriage that is non-traditional, that is new, that causes known harm, that is re-defining marriage.
So please take your own advice.
Whew; wow.... this post sure stirred up some comments....so in light of that it is good to air our individual viewpoints. Here is mine.
I don't know how marriage began, (religious roots, socio-economic roots or whatever) but I do know that women have throughout time, (and in many countries still do) been treated with much less respect than men. Think of the "honor killings" that go on daily in the Middle East and in fact the two teens killed in California recently.
The phrase "Rule of Thumb" came from the rule of law (common law) that a man could beat his wife, should she need it, but not with a stick any larger than his thumb!
Today women are treated with much more respect, especially in democratic societies and forward thinking/leaning countries.
I also have seen statistics showing in America at least, more people have been divorced than not. It didn't used to be that way. Something changed.
Today a lot of people get married for a variety of reasons and when times get tough they bail. I will make no judgements if they are right or wrong, especially in the vein that more have been divorced than stayed together.
Another piece of the equation is that there are undoubtedly many married people who are staying married but are not happy. When those figures are factored in then the scales are greatly tipped in favor of divorce as a means of escape seeking happiness.
We are talking about relationships and the love two people have for each other. I do agree however that marriage should be transparent. There shouldn't be any hiding things from your spouse. If it is a must then I suppose that one should consider a divorce before breaking our honor and marriage vows. My :2c:
Thank you for taking the time to read my viewpoint. :hugs:
Since marriage is defined by God, then quite clearly, neither you nor I have the authority to redefine it. Just because imperfect humans have screwed it up and tried to redefine a divine institution created for the benefit of God's creation -- stability of homes, establishment of the smallest churches, unity between man and woman, and of course procreation -- doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater OR accept as truth the attempts of misguided people to define it any way that makes them happy. Just because other cultures have different definitions doesn't mean they are right or that their definition is equally valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Can't wait for the Cannibal Party to demand equal treatment for their cultural tradition of feasting on their spouse(s) at the end of the wedding... I mean, who are WE to say that definition isn't valid?
The whole movement that is currently trying to define marriage in any way they please is preposterous. Words mean things. Marriage won't mean anything anymore. Just beause it is always executed imperfectly (because we are so deeply flawed and sinful as human beings), doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to truth.
When one understands God's desire for us in marriage, then he understands the beauty of it. By sacrificing for our spouse and engaging in mutual unselfish service (which God calls for a husband and wife to do), as well as meshing the unique characteristics distinctly held by men and women, we see His perfect plan and we understand how our needs/desires get met by the other.
God's plan and definition came LONG before the aborigines... Frankly, I could care a less what they think. I only care what God thinks.
Well, i've just read through all the previous posts and think that this is obviously a subject that people feel deeply about one way or the other.
In a perfect world we would all live happily together with our spouses, girlfriends or boyfriends and crossdress to our hearts content, but that ain't gonna happen!
I told my wife 22 years ago and she has been fairly accepting on the surface and never threatened to leave me because she loves me. I don't think i realise how much it hurt her when i told her and just how difficult it was to accept. I worry about this now, years later, even though things are ok between us.
Relationships are all different and you just can't have one simple rule to cover everything. Weigh it up very carefully before coming out to your wife, i think some would admit to having been happier not knowing!
Intereting topic and hope ya don't mind me adding here. I have been married and divorced but I definitely did not just bail out, I faught for my marriage which stupidly for me nearly had me having a nervous breakdown after 11 years. That was because I tried to do all the things I was brought up to believe ya know like what the marriage vows mean and also the old fashioned thing of 'you make ya bed and ya lay in it' which was ingrained in me by my mother. I have recently been handfasted and for me this is just as significant as the marriage vows I took way back then in 1988. I do think in todays society that some peeps do bail at the first major hurdle but thats because society has made it easier for them to do so!! Me myself even though I have been divorced and for good reason in the end would not just bail out I would still fight for something I thought was worth fighting for!!! I also believe in the old saying,'If you love someone let them go. If they are yours they will come back, if they are not then they won't.' Well it's along those lines anyways!
I would never attempt to redefine marriage myself and across cultures these things are different! Anyways thats my :) xx Felix :hugs:
I agree with the sentiment. How many people would be critical of a person who decided to hide a deep, dark guilty secret such as childhood abuse. A person has a right to withhold secrets about themselves if they honestly believe that the secret will not impact upon the relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleA
Also as you point out often it is the CD who is the only one who can properly judge what is the best course of action because their SO will not be able to get past the irrational prejudice that society has imposed on her thoughts about such matters.
Although that can be attacked as wronging your SO as it takes away their right to know and to decide for themselves, an even greater wrong would happen if a perfectly good relationship was destroyed because of a change of perception based upon prejudice.
Imagine a person who was a model citizen whom everyone liked and admired and who was trusted. Then you discover that 30 years ago he was jailed for a crime. Now you frame your thoughts about this person around teh fact he is a convicted felon and your perception changes. You happily throw out all the good things this person has done and view him with suspicion and mistrust.
Everyone makes mistakes, some make bigger mistakes than others and pay for it. If they truly repent and forge ahead making the best of their life and are good to family and friends then they have a right to keep their history secret. Shame on those who would judge that person for one mistake and ignore who they are today.
In the case of CDs our secret is not a mistake, it is just who we are. It is society which thinks we made a mistake and will change their perception of who we are based upon prejudice and ignore the real person standing before them.
I do hope Tessa did not get banned for this thread. because she sure did stir up a lively debate. Yes, she did show her lack of real knowledge and experience, but she did express her viewpoints as she is entitled to!
The message here was not meant to redefine marriage, but more likely to say how a real marriage, as understood in the context of the culture of most of us on this forum, should work. As I said in my earlier post, judging from the comments in this, and many other threads, many people on this forum don't appear to have the foggiest idea as to what a marriage is all about!! And that includes a lot of married CD's!(That might get me some emails!!)
I believe it was Suzy who said that more people divorce in America now then ever before. and she wondered why. Because they get married for all the wrong reasons!! Most young people who marry today don't even really know the person they are marrying! And if those people are not going to be honest with each other from the beginning, how can the marriage last. Yes, at age 76 I guess I can be classified as old fashioned in my way of thinking. Especially about marriage! But you know what! That way worked very well for several hundred years!! Marriage is, or should be, based on LOVE!! Not sexual ability, social status, power, or anything else. Just LOVE, which means totally open and honest communication between the two parties. Without that, there is no true love! My :2c:
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
Which God? Ahura Mazda? Camasotz? Quetzalcoatl? Papa Boa? The Rainbow Serpent? Odin? Aphrodite perhaps? Dagon? Osiris?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Scott
See there's a lot of religious beliefs and a lot of religious deifinitions of marriage. That makes applying one definition of mariage from your faith over people of other religions as wrong as having one from another religion applied over yours!
Except that there is more than one divine institution of marriage.Quote:
Just because imperfect humans have screwed it up and tried to redefine a divine institution created for the benefit of God's creation -- stability of homes, establishment of the smallest churches, unity between man and woman, and of course procreation -- doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater OR accept as truth the attempts of misguided people to define it any way that makes them happy.
And marriage was very different in Egypt to Israel! So then it's wrong to impose your religious view of marriage over people from other faiths. The Bible says so!Quote:
Exodus 22:21
King James Bible
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt
No more nor less than your own. You cannot prove the truth of your religion nor can any other religion prove theirs. All any has is faith and as so there is no justification for any to impose over the others.Quote:
Just because other cultures have different definitions doesn't mean they are right or that their definition is equally valid.
And even of the cannibal traditions of the world which one has that practice? And how can you say yours is more valid? But in your hypothetical the philsophical principles of the enlightenment while they entitle the cannibal to his cultural tradition would also entitle the spouse to decline consent, and without uncoerced informed consent he may not ethically do so.Quote:
Can't wait for the Cannibal Party to demand equal treatment for their cultural tradition of feasting on their spouse(s) at the end of the wedding... I mean, who are WE to say that definition isn't valid?
Indeed. So please cease imposing your Abrahamic religious tradition modified further to remove polygamy and to grant equality to the wife and to remove the 'husbands prerogative' that enabled him to legally rape his wife, and modified further to allow divorce etc over the rest of the people in your own country who come from a variety of traditions with different definitions of marriage many of which are older than your entire recorded history.Quote:
The whole movement that is currently trying to define marriage in any way they please is preposterous. Words mean things. Marriage won't mean anything anymore. Just beause it is always executed imperfectly (because we are so deeply flawed and sinful as human beings), doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to truth.
Thats fine for you when speaking about your own religious tradition. But many do not share that! So please stop being so bigoted as to demand everyone in the whole world follow your faith and it's rules. You would not like it if you were forced to follow another faith and it's practices... so "do unto others..." and stop considering only your own faith and its rules as valid for everyone else.Quote:
When one understands God's desire for us in marriage, then he understands the beauty of it. By sacrificing for our spouse and engaging in mutual unselfish service (which God calls for a husband and wife to do), as well as meshing the unique characteristics distinctly held by men and women, we see His perfect plan and we understand how our needs/desires get met by the other.
I respect your faith and your right to it and it's practices as being right for you. But you should respect the faith of others and their practices as being right for them.
Otherwise we should impose our faiths on you and you would not like that.
You cannot prove that and the material evidence does not support that. And while you may hold that on faith the Aboriginal people hold on faith their own beliefs many of which involve the rainbow serpent creating the land and a continuous culture from the dawn of creation till now.Quote:
God's plan and definition came LONG before the aborigines... Frankly, I could care a less what they think. I only care what God thinks.
So then if your faith is to be respected by others you must respect the faiths of others.
So if you think having your heart torn from your living chest on an altar to the Vampire-Bat God Camasotz of Central and Southern America would be bad then stop imposing your faith over the lives of others who do not share it or it is valid for a Camasotz-worshipper to sacrifice you to their God.
Yes marriage is supposed to be a sacred vow between a man and a woman with God as their witness, however most marriages are not sacred any more:sad:. I do agree you should not hide anything from your wife because if she finds out then you have lost her trust, and good luck getting her trust back. I will not judge anybody because it is not my place to judge anybody. I did tell my wife before I married her about my crossdressing, she was supportive about it until after we said our I do's, then she laid down the law and said she does not want me to crossdress, so she was the deciever in my case. Crossdressing was an issue because I refused to stop crossdressing. I did not hide it from her and told her when I was going to dress because I needed too. I finally quit crossdressing 7 yrs into the marriage because she was raising too much hell with me over me crossdressing, I went into a deep depression because of not being able to cd. the marriage finally ended 10 yrs later, after the divorce decree was signed I went home and put a dress on, after I started wearing dresses my depression went away and I am very much happier. I have always been up front about my cd ing when I am getting into a serious relationship with a woman, and yes they do end the relatioship because I cd, However to me it is better that the relationship is over than to live in misery by being in a relationship with a woman who will not accept me as I am. Hopefully one day I may find a GG who will accept Vivian as a part of me.
I was about to weigh in on the whole "God" issue but you covered it excellently as always :) There are moments when I get really perturbed by the the whole my God says you have to live this way shtick or else you are WRONG that its no wonder people turn away from religion itself... especially when it comes to marriage.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
As for the whole "disgusting" part of this thread... well, Marriage, Life, Cding etc is what YOU and your partner wish to make of it. If your faith determines such things, then more power to you, but don't go shoving your beliefs down other people's throats. Thats how wars are started.
Zarabeth
Seeing as Miss Tessa is done (banned) this thread is also done.. take your religious discussions to the section created for it, NOT in here!!!