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THIS is at the very heart of my position. This one line.Quote:
2. I NEVER said or forced or pushed anyone to come out of the closet. In fact, I told Anne to stay in the closet. But I correctly pointed out that the more of us which go out, the better our collective position in society will be.
I am Gutless as a guy...why I should be different as a girl.
The way I see it, CD'ers do not need to be out.. it is a personal CHOICE and only the individual can decide if being out is right for them, or even necessary. Now, TS on the other hand, NEED to be out.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that ANY CD'er needs to be out of the closet, unless they WANT TO... Now, TS on the other hand, NEED to be... Certainly many TS are afraid and have many real and valid concerns, but it is an actual and real NEED that causes the person real pain and suffering... the NEED to be out and the complications associated with achieving that, and only after taking various steps at that individuals own pace do they eventually come out and finally travel the road towards inner peace and comfort.
I haven't read all the responses, nor the other thread(s).. so, not sure what was said and not said, etc, etc...
But, my take on it is this... there are SOME that should NOT EVER come out of the closet... such as the extreme fetishist, the flamboyant exhibitionist, the "sissy" and so on.. you get my drift here... Sure it's ok for these certain "types" of CD to be out in like a club reserved for this sort of "style" etc, but not in say like the supermarket or ball park, lol... Personally, I think certain "kinds" of CD make things more difficult for Transsexual and those with gender identity disorders... There's absolutely NO REASON certain types of CD'ers should be OUT in public....other than in safe controlled environments reserved for that sort of thing... away from mainstream eyes
Nothing else apart from that needs to be said really, because I am the first to admit that while I wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
in the closet I was living in fear still & being honest with myself there is nothing at all courageous in that. :eek:
So there was once a time that I might have joined the chorus here as well, but I would know that I was
singing this same tune to justify the pitiful existence I once had hiding in the closet. But it's all good now ;)
because I know now that it isn't me hiding away from the world & for the first time ever I feel really alive!
I am not here to judge anyone, I am just sharing how I felt, please take no personal offence & carry on :)
Absolutely............to each his (or her) own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crissy Kay
What works for one of us may not for another. No one should be made to feel they "must" come out. I needed to...others don't and are happy that way, so do what works for you.
I guess this is a subject that is never going to go away! It will lose momentum for a while and then resurface..
There are some people who want the world to fit in with what they believe. They are often called extremists, radicals or fanatics. At the extreme end they are terrorists. Then there are the rest of us... happy getting on with our lives doing what we need to do and accepting the position others take in life. The extremists will exist at either end of any spectrum of activity/interest. There will be the pros and the cons. So we have the CD guerilla movement at one extreme and the 'beat the s**t out of the trannies' at the other.
Such is life...
There has always been a huge rift that has existed between the cross-dressing community & the transsexual
community. And there are many transsexuals that are keen to distance themselves from CDers who are driven
by transvestic fetishism. Transsexuals as a whole see themselves more like intersex people do - born with a
condition cause by a biological birth defect. Personally I am not so close minded because I understand that
there are a lot of trangendered folk who are evolving from crossdressers because they are finding out they are TS.
I would like to share with you a true story about something that is going on in my real world right now which
is also about showing respect for other transgender members of the community, the decisions they make & also
their personal opinion which has often become a bone of contention between CDing & transsexual communities.
Just because I am a transsexual female, this does not mean that I side with the transsexual community on everything.
Yesterday at my local TG support group meeting I tackled one of the group's organisers about their segregation of
other people of other gender types that fall under the 'transgender umbrella'. This organiser told me about month that
if one of the new members of our group didn't start to make an effort in transition, then she was going to kick this new
TG person out of our group, which I felt was very wrong because I can see how this new person NEEDS our support!
Also I questioned the organiser over a month ago about what the true identity of our support group is because I was
going to send in a funding application that had been sent to me by a state government funded LGBT groups because
they had some cash available for us for any projects that we could organise for our transgender support group. But it
was here I found many holes in a very leaky boat that we were all relying upon. So something needs to be done & fast!
And the main reason is that we have no committee or infrastructure & group identity to support our SUPPORT GROUP!!!
Anyway my group's organiser told me that we are a TRANSGENDER SUPPORT GROUP, but the irony is that this same
person is also telling me that it is exclusively for transsexuals & was wanting to kick this new TG person out! And this
same person also tried to mention that the group was exclusively for transsexuals yesterday, but then I asked her at
the meeting with everyone else present the straight up question about 'Why are we a transgender support group,
instead of a transsexual support group?'. Naturally this started a very fiery debate between us, very similar to what
we see on this forum, but it was me standing up for the rest of the TG community, including the cross-dressers! :eek:
So yesterday I challenged the group's leadership on these issues in a debate where everyone else in that
group agreed with the argument I presented & fully supported the new proposals for the group that I put
on the table. And while this might come as a surprise to some here, I am 100% sure that I got the respect
of the group because I do actually listen to others & it was their concerns that I also raised yesterday ;)
So now we are in the process of organising a new mission statement as our group's new focus & agenda.
We are also in the process of establishing a proper committee, infrastructure & group identity so we can
start organising more social events so the entire transgender community here can get together, learn
about each other & network together. I also see huge benefits for our group through organising fund
raising events to raise money for our group in conjunction with the main LGBT community here. I am
also on that committee for that so I have tabled some of my suggestions to them & have their full
support already. AndNot only that I have the support of the management of my local gender clinic ;)
So we need all of this sorted out to run this group democratically & effectively & put & end to many ongoing
disputes & problems that have been plaguing our local transgender support group for a very long time.
The best part about yesterday's TG meeting was there was a local transgender matriarch also showed up unexpectedly
while I was waiting for the group's organiser (who was running late as usual) to arrive & unlock the building. It was the
first time I ever met this person, however while we waited we chatted for a bit, I told her before the meeting about
some of the issues I was going to be bringing up & put forward a new proposal about how we could tackle these issues.
I got the biggest surprise when she turned around & told me that I am now doing what she tried to do here in this city
15 years before I did & that she fully supported my proposal. So she was a fantastic ally to have on my side yesterday. ;)
So what is happening now, is our group will finally become a true TRANSGENDER SOCIAL SUPPORT GROUP with a focus on
opening up our group more on a social level to allow other transgender members to join in & network with others. But at the
same time our main objective is to support those transsexuals in the group who need as much help as possible & usually this
is the transsexuals who have more serious issues of Gender Identity Disorder & a physical transformation to contend with.
Collectively as a transgender group we have a stronger voice & presence in the local
community if we do unite to tackle any political issues, transphobia & bigotry as a group.
My personal agendas here is to not exclude anyone within the transgender spectrum who might be struggling trying to find
out where they fit in. And my motivation is because I was in that same place in the closet before I learnt to understand myself
better & now exactly where I fit in this world - since coming out of the closet I have more true friends than ever before!
But it has served me well to listen to others & learn all I can & appreciate their struggle - this is why I am here on this forum.
Well I'd have to say that most of these "militant" out-ists probably live in or near a big city, probably don't have close famlies, and have few outside responsibilities they need to meet. Location, family (especially kids), jobs, bills, etc etc etc. Hey -- how about that army ranger who's currently serving in Afghanistan.....who happens to be a cross dresser in his spare time? YEAH I bet he has no "sack" or "guts" either, does he. Your argument is invalid.
LitaKelley, I appreciate your candor even if I don't agree with your position. It seems you're saying that cd's shouldn't go out if they don't want to, but if they do want to they must meet certain standards, as determined by...???...you? So you see me out in public and you think my style is too flamboyant. You don't know if I'm a cd (should stay home) or a TS (must be out in public).Quote:
Originally Posted by LitaKelley
It seems that you want me to be in the public's eye if my presence supports your cause (acceptance), but you want me to stay away if my presence hurts your cause.
I'm sure many people in the general public would like to have all the TS folks stay out of the public and go only to special clubs where they are accepted. You want the same for crossdressers whose style you don't like.
Can't have it both ways.
If you're going to engage in the conversation, you should have the courtesy to read all the posts. If you can spare the time, read my post (# 45). I guess I was referring to you.
Wow, some people really don't have a clue. "No guts or sack" As a former military combat veteran, like many others here, I also take offense to this. Havving charged into a firefight to protect ones fellows I believe takes both. As a Vet I fought to protect your right to express yourself, don't force your beliefs upon me! I am happy in my closet, it's a big one!
Anne, As a (mainly) closetted crossdresser I'd love add a response supporting the opinions you expressed but I'm afraid I lack the guts to do so :straightface:
Zoe
Next time, read what I actually said instead of conjuring up conjecture on what you think I said, which are two different things.. My post is exactly what it is and not up for debate on what you think it means... I have a real disdain for people like you, those whom alway insist on insinuation, assumption and conjuring up imaginative speculations based upon their own paranoia instead of based upon what was actually said.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
Actually, to the extent that someone passes or blends in, they do exactly nothing (zero) for the image of crossdressers. They are just wearing their closet instead of living in it. The real hero(ine)s are the ones out and about who are obviously CDing: the men in skirts, the fetishists, sissys, the man wearing lingerie on a plane, drag queens, etc. The public will never accept crossdressing until it is in their face enough that they throw up their hands in defeat. That's the way it's been for every minority. Don't worry, it won't be me. I don't care if CDs are accepted or not. But I have to laugh when people talk about how brave they are for going out but they still don't want anyone to know they are a genetic male wearing women's clothing. If they are serious they should be flamboyant or at least wear a sign saying "I'm a Crossdresser and I'm in your face."Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
:D
I have NEVER met a CD that did not want to be out of the closet. They dream about it all the time. They dream about a lot of things I will not mention in this post.
What is sad is that they always overlook the fact that they are not the first to come out. Countless TS girls have had to come out and they survived. I guess CDs ignore history or at least dont learn from it.
I am out of the closet. I think it is better to be out of the closet. It is in a way a lot more fun and adventurous to be out of the closet. But sometimes people are forced to be in the closet because there are people close around them in their homes and on their jobs and in their towns who would be total nazis about it it they found out,pardon the expression. Sometimes telling your secrets about LGBT stuff can really bring down a lot of wrath and it can be a real invitation to a hanging! I am out of the closet but I can respect that some people have to stay in the closet for awhile and they can't help it! But if a person can find a way and if it is possible,being out of the closet can at times be more fun and less frightening than being in the closet.
As to who you have met, you have not met me. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this, but I have no desire to leave my closet. None. But I do dream about things. I dream of things such as winning the lottery, going on vacation, the weekend, having free time to do what I want to do, travelling to far off, exotic locations, etc. Absent from my dreams, and my dreams are many, is a desire to leave my closet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
You state that it is sad those such as I "overlook the fact that [we] are not the first to come out." If indeed you do feel sad about this, please do not feel sad for me! Instead, feel happy that I enjoy what I do, in the manner I choose to do it! Such happiness should be celebrated! I, for one, celebrate it!
LOL. You mean dreaming about having sex with men? :eek: *shock*Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
But seriously, just think for a moment: how would you have met the thousands of CDs who are happy with their circumstances, if they are dressing at home? :facepalm:
So, since you haven't met them, you'll need to take their word for it here.
"CD's ignor history or at least don't learn from it" ?????
I have to admit, I'm at a loss for words after reading that statement. How we make such blanket statements in such a diverse community?
tina
I too am a former grunt and nothing I ever did in the Army took as much courage or 'guts' as coming out. I also haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Denise69
a couple of mates, one is a decorated ex-Vietnam veteran (Machinegunner in the battle of Long Tan) & also a former
SASR (Special Air Services Regiment) with Gulf war experience who both really respect me & both admitted to me that
they wouldn't have the courage to do what I am doing now because of fears of rejection by other family members. So
even the toughest of guys around don't have the ballz it takes to come out & be so honest when you are trangendered
or transsexual.
So the next time you think about flexing you military muscle around here just remember soldier - you are NOT alone here!
Melody, have you ever considered that when someone says he doesn't have the ballz to do something, he may also mean that he doesn't want to? And for reasons that you can't even think of, since you do not live in his shoes?
Good Lord, it's an expression I've used often and when I see someone bungee jumping for example, I also say that I don't have the cahoots (can't use ballz) to do it. But at the same time, it is something that doesn't appeal to me in the least. Am I not bungee jumping because I'm afraid? NO! I'm not bungee jumping because I can't find anything the least bit redeeming about the activity.
It takes all kinds in this world, ya know?
Why is it so hard for some of the members here who are out, to believe that those who don't want to be out stay in for reasons other than fear?
It is maddening when someone shares how they feel and someone else says they are BSing. How would all of you who are doing this feel if you were called liars?
This conversation is becoming circular.
Reine, I see your point, but have you ever stopped to consider that some of my friends might have
looked at this from where I am at & have developed such a much better appreciation of such things?
And I will never accept that people don't come out of the closet because they are not ruled by the fear!
Talk to any pyschologist & I am sure that most will agree with me. But I am not arguing about what is right
or wrong here - because people need to do what they believe is best for them. My choice is not to be ruled
by this type of fear anymore. Just look at the thread about the regrets of those who have come out. I think
the feedback there more than endorses my point of view about this.
So yes, this conversation is becoming circular.
Melody, point taken about your friends as well. But the thing is, you don't know everybody! To insist that others are lying when they don't have the same degree of gender dysphoria is the height of arrogance, I think. No offense intended.
Doesn't this make sense to you in the least? How would you like to be called a liar, being told that you are not TS but in fact are a fetish CDer at the height of a pink fog, by someone who has no idea what it's like to experience GID? You'd be very angry about this.
As to psychologists, even they can develop tunnel vision. I've seen this with a friend who was a Court psychologist in child abuse cases. He saw child abuse everywhere after a while. Psychologists are human too. And don't forget, it is the TGs with severe GID who do seek the help, and not the CDers who find balance and who also enjoy being guys. The professionals only see GID cases.
Maybe it's a dream for u and your friends, Kate, but it's more of a nitemare for me! Come meet me in the bar at the SCC and you'll see why! I'll be dressed as the old granny! So I can "blend" and fit in with the other girls there. Sigh!
But, all the while, Sherry will be telling me to let her; young, sexy, ****ty exhibitionist self out of the suitcase upstairs! And, I KNOW I'm not alone in this! In my nearly 4 years here, I've gotten a NUMBER of sympathetic posts and PMs from like minded CDs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
hiya RD,Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I believe I can provide an explanation for you. The technique is called "framing". Reducing the content of the "question" and decision options down to a binary set of carefully manipulated choices that are assumed to represent the only two options. Advertising media and manipulators understand this strategy very well. It is readily observed on forums too. (But probably not a conscious process).
You are either _____, or you are _____.
You simply address (present) the "question" and decision options within a binary context assumption. (There are only two options.)
This of course is rarely, if ever true. There are typically many options in every issue and decision making process.
By "framing" a debate you can essential force the discussion to operate with the assumption that there are only two choices..."You are either out and "free", or you are "hiding" (the word "hiding" implies a motivation by fear).
This "framing" approach creates an unequal basis in the discussion...by forcing those who are not "out" into a position of "defending".
Rather than attempt to explain this further (which typically proves to be a waste of time), I am providing a link to an article that clearly explains "framing" and the other factors influencing decision making.
http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives...ion-making.php
just my thoughts...
:love:
I read your post many times, and still see hipocracy. You want "certain types" of CD's to remain out of the public's eye to make it easier for TS and those with GID to gain acceptance (hmmm - no mention of acceptance of CD's) . Instead of your verbose bashing, just tell me where I misread your post. Or are you just a TS looking down your nose at us mere CD's?Quote:
Originally Posted by LitaKelley