I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho
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I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho
Twenty years ago I was in a Men's therapy group where, by happenstance, three of six guys were closet crossdressers (including me). One guy had not told his wife of 15 years and said he would never tell her because he felt it would hurt her and her feelings about him. He absolutely adored his wife and did not wish to hurt her or their relationship in any way. I hope he was able maintain that stance as I'd hate to think his wife ended up feeling betrayed by him as I know was not the case.
That said, I think those who say a willful omission is not a lie are playing semantic games.
Many years ago I was stockbroker. When selling, under corporate pressure, a product that I was less than thrilled with, I often thought that the most important thing in the sale wasn't what I said but what I didn't say. Why? Because what I knew but didn't say would have killed the sale. Is this comparable to holding back on telling about your CDing? Maybe not exactly, but this is an essential piece of yourself which I think you owe the person you are marrying - it's too big a deal to hold back.
I think that depends on the motivation. If the reason you didn't tell is because you knew it was going to be a problem, it's a bit different than an inadvertent omission. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
My SO doesn't think I'm a bad person for not telling her earlier in our relationship, and yes, she had to drag it out of me when she suspected. She was very hurt that I kept something important from her, and that hurt our trust. When somebody keeps something important from you, especially when it's a person you love and care for deeply, you have to wonder what else they're keeping from you. It's human nature, and I don't blame her for it one bit. I'd feel the same way.
"Coming out" to her has probably been the best thing I've ever done. Not because she's super in love with the dressing, but because I've been able to remember what it's like to not have any secrets, and our communication is so much better as a result. It's taken a lot of work to get there, and we're by no means perfect, but it's been worth it.
I am really enjoying this thread. I am also of the camp that believes that not telling is definitely not lying. If anyone wants to argue go find me the dictionary version of that definition. I am not saying that not telling is necessarily good either. To me it depends on the circumstances and all the details that we never really know as members here based on a few posts by someone.
The reason I do not like others calling not telling a lie, is that the word, "lie" in itself always has negative connotations. The initial thought, which many times is very difficult to change, is that the liar did something wrong. The "liar" is labeled as a bad person immediately, whether stated overtly or hinted at in comments by others. However, when someone holds back on telling, sharing important information about themselves from the other party to an important relationship, it does not necessarily mean that they are being bad and should be shamed as many like to do here to those who do not tell. I am not saying that one should not tell. I always think that telling is the best route. However, no one lives in the shoes of the other person and cannot know all of the reasons why someone does not tell. I believe that there are certain situations where telling may cause more harm than good, if both parties are in a happy and very workable relationship prior to the big reveal. Each person needs to decide for themselves when is the best time, if any to tell, and also be ready to deal with the consequences of their own decisions.
Well by the definition of some. I am definitely a liar and I'm beginning to feel that they have a point. Because I accepted that I was TS and actually came out to some people before I even met my future wife. Indeed even my motivation for starting to date was in a way to prove something. I had no intention of getting married and never actually expected anything to come of it. I didn't tell her then because it wasn't a consideration as I expected it not to last. I suspect if I told her she would have ended the relationship and as I was enjoying her company. I really didn't want that to happen, still don't.
But it did last and I ended up getting married. Believe me no one was more surprised than me to end up at the altar and later have two kids.
I remember when I did come out a friend. She commented that 'At least you weren't married when this came out.' Well that changed.
To be fair I have stated before that I believe she has an inkling. She knows I've bought and worn women's clothing. Indeed I gave her some when I realised they didn't fit me. She's called 'A bit of woman' on occasion. She told me that when we were dating that she thought I might be gay because I wasn't behaving the way she'd experienced in other men. Somehow though I don't think she wants to know because she doesn't want to deal with it directly. This I believe because I know her by now. She avoids situations.
So I'm left between a rock and a hard place. Guilty for not telling her but frustrated I cannot tell her.
There's no easy answer.
I posted this on here more than 6 years ago and it's still relevant now.......
All too often with us C/Ders it always has to be about US,how WE feel,about OUR feelings,why can't our SO's accept US......yadda yadda yadda ! To read some of the posts on here it's plainly obvious that a lot of us never get out of our own arses.....and i'm included very much in this category.
Sometimes it would do all of us a lot of good to have a good look at ourselves,stop being so selfish (me me me,what about me!) and try to look at CDing from other peoples (SO's) perspectives. Some SO's can accept it,some can't but no point complaining about it if they can't accept their man wearing a dress.
My best friends are CDers,a nicer bunch of folks you would never meet but the "me myself and I " syndrome comes across loud and clear. I know it's not easy and lots of us have sad tales to tell and some have had crappy lives because of folks finding out and being outed etc etc but that's no excuse to blame SO's for what is still(and you can like it or not) regarded by most folks as a perversion.
Sometimes maybe we all need to have a reality check....It's a hell of a lot to expect our partners to go along with/accepting us wanting to look like a girl......sometimes,just sometimes taking a step back and having a wee think about their feelings would do all of us the world of good
I told 1st date..been together now for years...i personally dont give a **** what you do..bottom line is if you dont tell she will find out..you will leave something out that she will find..oh well its your problem..enjoy it when she finds out-and she will believe me..my wife unit still amazes me after all these years with what she does (seriously you mowed the grass with no oil in the engine sorta thing) and what is actually going thru her brain...I recently donated my forms to breast cancer survivor charity and it was one of best days ever for the both of us that i/we did that..we both went out and celebrated with her buying me some nice stuff later on...keep lying to yourself and i dont give a damn anymore on those who come in here crying about why there SO has an issue..Cd'ers some times make the dumbest decisions like new coke formula dumb decisions...
We can and have (those who did not reveal early on, myself included) been very clever with semantics about not actually lying. I find it hard to think that someone who has actively crossdressed and kept it a secret from an SO for a number of years has at some point not crossed the actual lie barrier. But EVEN if somehow it has/had been accomplished, does that make what we have or more aptly have not said any better?
So often comes the gripes about how we have had to live secret lives and hide our desires and activities from the general society. Yet, IMO, far too many here are making acceptable excuses for doing the same exact thing with our SO's. They have bared all to us but we have not reciprocated back. And whatever you want to call it, our relationships were or are being lived under false pretenses.
I just truly believe in my heart that our SO's deserve to know everything about us if they have made strong and most often lifetime commitments to us. They should get all of the facts about who we are. They should be allowed to make that choice to commit based on as much information about us as there is to make. And we should expect and do from them.
But what so many of us who are excusing our poor choice in not telling seem not to even realize, is that we in fact only cause ourselves more grief and anxiety. Of the active crossdressers who had or have not told, how much effort gets put into keeping it a secret? A lot of hoops get jumped through wasting precious time in life that could be spent doing more productive things, let alone the freedom to dress without the high anxiety and stress. Even if one is in a DADT relationship, removing the anxiety stress and fear of being caught is so much of a relief.
While there are and have been some who will take that secret to the grave, most likely it will get found out one way or another in the end anyway. And when it does the relationship will suffer a setback. It may never fully recover from the setback and it may destroy the relationship altogether.
The anger, betrayal, the fear, the disconnect our SO's feel is not from the CDing itself, but of finding out later on after a commitment has been made. One thing my wife said to me that really hit home about all this. She bared her soul to me and trusted me with everything about her life. And one of the things that hurts her most, and tears came when she said it was that I did not trust her with telling her.
The amount of negativity that comes from not telling our SO's so outweighs whatever positive if any that comes from not telling. I guess the only positive we can really get is to make it easier for ourselves in the early going to get our SO's to commit to us. But that early easy road so often comes back to bite us so hard in the end with the hurt we cause. We love them so much and we would never want to hurt them with. But, with not telling about our crossdressing and when they do eventually find out we end up hurting them so much more. And all we have accomplished for ourselves is placing more limitations on ourselves with added stress and anxiety along the way.
As the wife of a CD who didn't find out until after 20 years of marriage, I have to say this is an interesting post.
IMHO, I was LIED to. Sugar coat it how ever you want, but keeping a "secret" of this magnatude is a lie. You didn't say you liked a gift she gave you, even if you really didn't. Tell her she looked great even when you didn't think so. You KEPT an important part of yourself from your SO.
Does my head understand the "fear, shame and guilt"? Yes. I have even cried thinking about what my husband has been through. The pain and shame and guilt.
Does my heart understand how he could keep it from me? LIE to me for so many years? NO! He knew and knows all aspects of me - the good, the bad and the ugly so to say. I was and have been completely honest with him. He was not.
Does this make him some kind of evil, unforgiving, bad person? Hell No. But to say not telling your SO by omission not a LIE is offensive and like a slap in the face. And one sure fire way to make your SO not trust you.
It's been a year now since I found out. A hell of a years. A year of me trying to "catch" up to where he is. To get to know her as I can. A year of trying to figure out where she fits into our family and marriage. A year of me trying to trust him again and not think everything these past 21 years were a lie. My CHOICE was taking away by his so called omission. My choice to marry him, have children, live the life we have lived. If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
And I leave those who haven't told a question:
How can you live a lie? Why would you want to live a lie?
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.
TanyaR is exactly right. We can rationalize it all we want, but keeping something as big as crossdressing secret from a potential spouse is lying about who you are in a very fundamental way.Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaR
I've commented on this thread before. I, and the people who read my post (if they understood it correctly), know how I feel about this. It is too harsh to say that not telling our partners is simply lying. But it isn't incorrect to say that a cd not telling their partner is withholding the truth. Does not disclosing the truth amount to lying? I don't think it does. At worst, it simply amounts to not being totally open. A lie on the other hand would be a misdirection. For example, a partner says "are you a crossdresser", and you reply "no", that would be a lie. Yet a partner never asking if you were a crossdresser would never result in you having to answer a question that has never been asked.
It's clearly not as simple as that. The presumption will be, from our partners, that we don't crossdress. It simply won't be a thought that would have entered their mind, hence why they would never ask such a question. But even if the question hasn't been asked, then we (the cd), isn't being open, isn't being totally honest about who they are, so by that definition alone, we are with-holding a truth about ourselves. And it is a truth about ourselves that, if it ever came out, would result in our partners looking at us very differently. They may accept us after this truth is revealed. They may not. But the bottom line is, the inescapable fact is, in holding back a truth about ourselves to our partner, we are holding back a significant part of our character.
And that is where the problems start. The problem with our partner accepting us. I got some flak from Isha earlier in this thread for saying what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway. It is better to be honest, right from the start. I understand that for many, that time has long been and gone. But for those, they are faced with a situation that isn't ideal. Meaning that they have to make the most of the situation in which they do reveal themselves.
I, personally, can not escape my own view. I regard my crossdressing as nothing to be ashamed of. As nothing that I have to hide. It is a part of me, it is a significant part of who I am. If people don't accept this part of me, then they can never accept me totally. So long ago I came to the only logical conclusion I could. And that is - be honest about who I am, and if others accept me, then great. If they don't, then that's their problem, not mine. It took me a while to reach that stage, but hand on heart, I am so much more happy for it. I am now an open book. My advice would be for all of us to try and reach that stage. For not only will it result in surrounding yourself with people who accept you, it will do wonders with you accepting yourself.
I can sort all this out for you. :)
What people are doing when they don't tell... is Deceiving someone. They are NOT lying, they are being deceitful.
OK make it a sticky then we never need to have this conversation again :)
Thank you.
Unless a lie was told, not a lie. Go read it in the dictionary. Withholding very important information is not good either. One might react the same when a lie is found out or withheld information is revealed, but .. they are two different definitions. That is what part of this thread is about, as I understand the thread.
One is meant to deliberately mislead, while the other is meant to deliberately hide and not share. End results may be the same, while reasons may not be.
I am not trying to diminish or understate the pain, et al, that one may feel when the hidden is revealed. I am just trying to clear up a poor mis-use of definitions, one of which many times carries unwarranted negative connotations.
Julie York raises a very good, and very literal, point. A point that is hard to ignore.
It is however a point that gets right at the heart of the semantics of it all.
When a partner, who has just found out that her SO is a crossdresser, accuses her partner of lying to her, what is she actually saying? Where does her problem lie? If her partner says to to her "but I never lied to you", would she respond by saying "well no, you actually didn't, so that makes everything ok", or is she more likely to respond by saying "that's immaterial, you're not the person I thought you was"?
The point is that semantics only play a part. And the part they play only has any significance in the cold light of day. Never in the heat of the emotion. The point being that we can twist it, justify it, label it how we want - doing so is to be literal. But being literal doesn't sit at all well with the emotional. And it's the emotional that we'll all have to deal with should such a time come.
A point which answers AllieSF's point - yes - Alllie is right - we can all go and read it in a dictionary. Unfortunately however, we don't live our lives by dictionary defintion. Meaning that such replies are simply moot.
I NOW understand what the difference is in the dictionary. Thank you for clearing up the fact that he was only dishonest for 20 years, not lying about a part of who he really is.
I will make sure to add "ask if he is likes to cross dress" to the list of questions I tell my teenage daughters to ask the guys they are dating. That was one question I never thought to ask.
TanyaR - who is your post aimed at?
So Allie, you know my situation. After 20+ years, I came clean. My wife was not equipped to even ask if I was a cross dresser when we first started dating. It simply is not in the realm of possible questions. So while I withheld the info, had she somehow asked, I would have lied, way back when. I am sure that any other cross dresser would do the same until they are ready to come out. So, even though I was not asked, I know I would have lied. Withholding any significant information is no different than a lie, even if a different verb has to be used. Maybe that's the rub of the semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieSF
Jennixx - no one per say.
Just found it amusing getting the "dictionary" reference.
Some one made the point about if we didn't ask if they were crossdressers. I know I never did. Lol.
I also must have been typing as you were posting. As I didn't see yours until now.
Sorry I forget how sarcastic I can be sometimes.
Thanks Tanya.
I agree with you. And the "dictionary" reference is amusing at best, completely irrelevant at worst.
I think both you and I are on the same page. Figuratively speaking, of course! :)
x
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie York
I love these posts for two reasons. The first Julie is looking at it from a very MALE stand point. Logic and literal definition. Great in sales, pretty good in politics (I did not have sexual relations with that woman) but not so good with real live people who we should care for.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
Jenni shows it from the female side. Where words can and do have alternate meanings. The sky can be blue or it can be azure or it can be sky blue. Subtle maybe but not as sharp delineation. Also so many here don't see how it does effect the SO...the one who has her (his maybe) world where they think they know their spouse. And I also agree that it would be very rare for the CD to never actually definitively lie. I pointed this out earlier. When you get caught...the first time...many tell one of two lies. The most common? "No, I don't dress...I did it on a lark...it was just the one time." Which leads to the second REAL lie. "I will never do it again." So if we want to stay literal, how many CDs told one of THOSE lies? So it is a lie when you are confronted and you deny...Hmm:thinking:
and I want to make the next point really stand out...for all those who were selfish enough to think of their own happiness and disregard their SO'sQuote:
Originally Posted by TanyaR
I have been on the receiving end of that when my GF didn't think I could handle some information. Let me tell it hurts, it hurts just like the worst physical injury you males here have ever felt in a sporting event before you got your cup.Quote:
If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
and the most salient quote of the day...thank you Tanya:clap:Quote:
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.
Here's another way to look at it. A lot of women don't understand their husband's desire to masturbate. Their husbands often find ways to hide that act (staying up after the wife goes to bed, for instance, or getting up early). But when the husbands get caught, it usually doesn't end the marriage. And the wives don't usually say, "you're not the person I thought you were."
Similarly, with crossdressing, if the guy can explain to his wife that this is a small but necessary part of his life, and he won't do it when she's around, and it's not even that unusual... I think many wives would be okay with that. And I don't necessarily blame CD'ers who keep the CDing to themselves, as long as it's a minor part of their lives (since I think their wives would prefer not to have to think about this minor but icky trait).
The problem comes when the CDing blows up from a minor, easily hidden part of life into a major obsession. At that point, no wonder the wives feel that "you're not the person I thought you were." If he wanted to spend all his free time masturbating, wearing diapers, or locked in a dungeon (or any other non-socially acceptable form of adult play), she would also be upset that he had changed into a different person than the one she thought she had married.
So keep your CDing to a minimum, and it barely matters whether you reveal it or keep it private. But if the CDing becomes a major part of your life, then realize it won't stay secret, and try to consider how best to bring it up with her, to reduce the chances she feels deceived, and increase the chances she comes to see it as a fun way to spice up your marriage.
I agree with Jess and I've said it before effectively CDing is effectively a hobby, like any other hobby men do. But with often complex motivations and indeed implications for the women in their lives.
Of course if it was just like Golf and socially acceptable if not always understood. We wouldn't be having this debate. It isn't.
Part of the problem is people like me, whose reasons for crossdressing are more fundamental than something interesting to do at the weekend. Then there's others for whom crossdressing is a fetish and a sexual thrill. Neither is particularly palatable to the average spouse.
All too often the key to understanding and tolerance is knowledge and experience and crossdressing is not something the average person knows about or experiences. Neither do they want to and we shouldn't expect them too.
To those who suggest being upfront is the ONLY way to go. I disagree. No two people's lives are the same. There is no one size fits all solution. This is not a soap opera with a storyline and a resolution. This is life. My experience of family members who know about me is that they simply don't want to face it or discuss it. They haven't rejected me or changed their attitude to me in an overt way. They know about it but it's as if it never happened. It's 'Don't ask, don't tell' if you like.
As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me. But I can't be sure. I have to temper my desire to be accepted with her implied denial of it.'You're a man' she said to me the other day in relation to some issue and that's what she wants from me. She's right, she married a man and whatever my demons that's what she wants. A man who can do all the man things and yet be a stay at home homemaker and cook, clean and look after the children while she works. I don't think she's unreasonable even if I wish I could express my real self more.
But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises.
So if your hobby is say...trains and you spend thousands on said trains but you don't tell your wife...its OK?Quote:
Originally Posted by mariehart
But you have not asked her. How do you know it isn't boiling under the surface? And if she "knows" then somewhere along the line you did discuss it...right? You are guessing what she thinks again. Sort of like the train engineer who was describing the derailment..."we were going along fine I thought and the the next thing I knew...bang...we were here"Quote:
As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me.
It does take two to compromise I think...two people with ALL the information to allow for a compromise. If only one has the information it isn't fair. It is one taking advantage of the other. But then again, that is how the world in the US and most civilized countries run. One side has the chips the other thinks they have an even playing field.Quote:
But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises.
In this case, we assume, she "knows" and has chosen (her choice) to let it ride as a DADT. Have you ever actually talked about it?
But Jess, every woman knows that men do this. It may not be discussed and it may repulse, but there is no surprise in the fact that it happens AND most importantly it is normal. No woman thinks, "men cross dress." Cross dressing is totally foreign and therefore quite different from your example.Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
If you spend too much money or time on trains or golf, don't blame trains or golf. Blame spending too much.
If a man fulfills all his manly duties: provider, chores, parenting, man-in-the-bedroom-husband, etc. but also likes to spend a little private time dressing up, and the wife knows but prefers not to know, what's the frickin' problem? They have settled into a arrangement that they are both comfortable with, even if that arrangement was not openly negotiated. They both know the deal. Is it really necessary to have that frequent open discussion about CDing that neither really wants to have, just to say you didn't lie?
I never was asked, so I didn't lie. But yes, I know now that I should have told before I married, but I honestly believed my sexual energy would be re-directed towards my bride and that the CDing desire would go away. Sure, I was wrong, but not dishonest. Many of us have found ourselves in that situation where we didn't tell for honest reasons. We know that now, and we'll be the first to say "at some point, when it is getting serious, tell her".
When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".