The difference between a CD and a TS

I think Pamela has stated things quite well; her autism example being quite good. My son has Aspergers but is on the more functional side of things. There is a massive sliding scale for how it affects different people. I briefly tried to quantify my own gender issues but quickly gave up as I am happy as a man who can indulge my female side when I need to. I just have to look at all the people I meet in a day to see everything from alpha-male to milquetoast to see that nothing about humans is set in stone, other than that most of us are quite good at following the ruts in the road.
Interestingly for me, my son says that if a pill was developed to get rid of his autism he wouldn't take it, as it is a part of who he is and he wouldn't want to become someone else. I often tell those in the know that although I wouldn't have chosen to be a CD, I certainly wouldn't give it up either.

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Originally Posted by pamela7

99.999% of non-CD-TG-TS people do not think about their gender, IMHO.

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You think not? Even when the angry Coach / Drill Instructor / (other male authority figure) yells at them:
"Man the hell up you <expletive> <derogatory term for a gay man>!"
or even the milder:
"What are you, some kind of a big girl?"
"Don't get your panties in a bunch!"

What about in a positive light, such as:
"Jones is a man's man!"

There is a fair amount of pressure on children, many times, to conform, especially if they don't. Maybe they are just a little bit of a tomboy, or a boy who likes playing with dolls. At a certain point, lots of parents will tell the kid "enough." Other kids can be cruel too. I'm sure this isn't as bad as it used to be, but I expect it still happens, and I bet when it happens to you, you think about it.

I'll admit that it's more about their conformance to normative gender expressions, rather than their actual gender identity, which is implicit. I'm sure no cis person ever questions their gender assigned at birth! I still think how cis people express their gender, though, is thought about more than you are allowing for - for example "Can a man wear a pink shirt?" It's a part of a much more complex discussion, but since they are cis, the rest of the discussion isn't usually necessary: (See the following)

The Genderbread Person

yes Paula, even when those words are used, the normal guy (assuming we can define a normal any more than we can CD/TS/TG), won't question his gender, why should he? He might think/start to believe he's effiminate, he might believe he's gay cos of early-opportunistic imprinting experiences, and for myriad of other reasons. Separating those people such as yourself and my stepdaughter who have "always know" they're in the wrong body gender, I reckon most other folks follow their physical gender first and don't think about their gender. They might feel macho or effeminate, they might feel different, but I reckon it's simply not questioned.

This is my own experience. Only now am I questioning this. I'm open to where it goes, to being a man who wears ladies clothes, to being a lesbian in a male body, to being a female spirit only just allowed through the returning anima to even realise this might be the case, to that all being a pile of fluffy nonsense and i'm a man, period. But I'm damned sure the guys down the pub never ever thought of it.

PaulaQ - I'm happy you've offered a handful of clarifying posts, because your first one came off as dismissive to me. Actually, it was a bit offensive to me. Your follow ups have helped me understand better, so thanks for taking the time to continue this important conversation.

To put the pump on the other foot, imagine if I were to say, "Transexuals are fortunate because they are always confident of their gender. Crossdressers are the ones who struggle because their gender shifts constantly." I imagine you might react negatively to that because I'm dismissing your history, your struggle and your triumphs. As a crossdresser, your initial post swept me aside as easily.

I understand you're still incredulous, but there are days I despise the maleness I see in the mirror. There are times where I embrace it. There are times when I'm dressed that I connect so intimately with the female image I've created that I weep when I'm forced to remove it. There are times when putting on make up is a total drag (pun intended).

What I'm sure about is I have a strong "female-ness" about me, and in the same way you had suppressed it for years, I do the same now, except when it's OK not to. (I'm working on it, though; trust me!)

Fortunately, you now can live one authentic life, but unfortunately, I spend too much time feeling as though I'm living two inauthentic lives.

And to be honest, I like who I am, but I definitely do NOT lead an authentic life. I admire PaulaQ more than I can say because she does live under her terms. It's an incredibly impressive thing, and I'd guess those who live that way are in the minority.

I think the difference, and the only difference that really matters to me, is internally.

We can try to define each other until the cows come home and regardless, people are going to be offended or think that that definition doesnt transcend. For example, the idea of not wanting to use SO or not wanting to use GG on the forum. Each person can identify whatever their heart tells them.

CD, TS, TG, PURPLE. It doesnt really matter. and the difference between a CD and a TS, there are an infinite number of differences that could occur. Just like how no other GG/SO on the board is like me, no CD is alike, nor any TS.

I think that society forces labels and boxes. I dont think you could define the difference between CD and TS, because it would matter WHICH cder and which TS, and the difference between those two people will not carry on to define any one else.

I understand the basic point is that TS feel that they were always a woman, or that they need to have their outsides match their insides. SOme CDers feel this way as well though, the clothing is a manifestation of thier personality. Etc. For them, dressing is a way to get their outsides, to match their insides, without the need for surgery or physical transformation of any substantial kind. Most CDers transform in a way that is reversible, so that they can also live and portray as "men" when they deem appropriate.

By this regards and definition that TS are trapped in the wrong body, and CDers are not. I would say that there are many CDer on this forum who present as a woman a substancial amount of the time, or wish to be able to present as a woman 100% of the time. I always get confused if the CDers who live full time as women are TS or CD.

So greenie is going to ask a peanut gallery question; I just wonder Paula based off of your first post, but others can answer: Are we trying to define TS or CD based off of the below types of questions?

Is surgery or hormones necessary to be a TS? (By a technical definition I guess?) Is this what we are alluding to as being the difference?
What about CDers who live full time as women. Are they CDers or TS? or purple or whatever. ;)

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Originally Posted by TinaZ

your first one came off as dismissive to me. Actually, it was a bit offensive to me.
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I imagine you might react negatively to that because I'm dismissing your history, your struggle and your triumphs. As a crossdresser, your initial post swept me aside as easily.

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Hey, I can appreciate how my OP sounded, and I sincerely apologize for the dismissive tone, unintentional though it was. And believe me, I take the history and experiences of the CDers here just as seriously as I do my own. Your experiences are just as valid as mine, and I know many people here are in quite a bit of personal pain because of their gender - however they choose to define it or identify it.j

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Originally Posted by TinaZ

I understand you're still incredulous, but there are days I despise the maleness I see in the mirror. There are times where I embrace it. There are times when I'm dressed that I connect so intimately with the female image I've created that I weep when I'm forced to remove it. There are times when putting on make up is a total drag (pun intended).

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Actually I can believe you feel this way, very easily. The feelings you describe looking in the mirror are totally relatable to me. I didn't get tired of female presentation - it's who I am - but I can relate to everything else you say, Tina.

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What I'm sure about is I have a strong "female-ness" about me, and in the same way you had suppressed it for years, I do the same now, except when it's OK not to. (I'm working on it, though; trust me!)

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Have you considered that you might possibly be transsexual?

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And to be honest, I like who I am, but I definitely do NOT lead an authentic life. I admire PaulaQ more than I can say because she does live under her terms. It's an incredibly impressive thing, and I'd guess those who live that way are in the minority.

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Thanks, but I'm really no big deal. There are, unfortunately, costs to being authentic, at least in my case. I hope you are able to find a path to an authentic life for yourself, whatever that might be.

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Originally Posted by Greenie

I think the difference, and the only difference that really matters to me, is internally.

I understand the basic point is that TS feel that they were always a woman, or that they need to have their outsides match their insides.

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Yes, I think the key thing - and the point people missed from my OP - was that it's really a question of identity. A TS identifies as a woman, and feels the need for gender transition. A CD doesn't feel either of those things.

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By this regards and definition that TS are trapped in the wrong body, and CDers are not. I would say that there are many CDer on this forum who present as a woman a substancial amount of the time, or wish to be able to present as a woman 100% of the time. I always get confused if the CDers who live full time as women are TS or CD.

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I'd count them as TS - there are no-hormone, non-op TSes. My boyfriend was one. He is the most masculine person I've ever met, and he was well before he ever started T. He has lived as a man his entire life - basically since he was old enough to buy his own underwear, which he did with money from his allowance and after-school job. He started T last year - but other than dropping his already deep voice even lower, it hasn't done much else. There wasn't much else to do. Even without T, he made the Marlboro man look effeminate - no exaggeration. He knew from day one that he was a man. He never let anyone else define him as anything but a man.

I know of others, who may have gradually socially transitioned, staying longer and longer as the opposite gender until life as their birth sex simply made no sense anymore.

I know some who can't medically transition, because of health reasons.

I'd consider all such people to be TS - or at least in transition in the sense of social transition. And to me, social transition is by far the hardest. Medical transition is no walk in the park, but it should be based on the needs of the individual.

Anyway, if someone tells me they are a woman, and lives as one, or is in the process of transitioning to one, they are TS as far as I'm concerned.

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The difference between a CD and a TS

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Lets look past all of the labels, where one may or may not be along the "sliding TG scale" and the medical/psychological terminology and lets instead look at the differences in how the subject of clothing is approached by a CD'er vs a TS.

Now it has been said many times, by many a TS, myself included, that it is not about the clothes.
[TS] women wear women's clothes because they are the clothes women wear, plain and simple.

Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

A CD'er wears these clothes for reasons ranging from the fetish/sexual all the way up to wanting to be seen as a women.
While some may dress casual to better fit in, seems the vast majority like to, or will only, dress to the nines or nothing at all.

The point is not so much the differences in how a TS or CD'er chooses to dress but how each describes those clothes.

Most TS's and GG's for that matter do not even remotely go into the details of an outfit the way a CD'er will.
More importantly, we generally do not go into any if all details about what undergarments we are wearing.

Browse through the 500+ posts in the What are you wearing right now thread and you will quickly see exactly what I mean. :heehee:

We, [TS's] generally just do not speak that way about what we happen to be wearing on any given day.

Questions? Comments? Would love to hear them. :)

Comments Sammy...? :D

I'd agree with a lot of what you say there... In fact, if you look at the thread Why do you crossdress you also get a good indication of how much the feeling of the clothes contribute to why the behaviour persists, I think... It's a good observation - that folks' underlying motivations are subconsciously revealed in the way they choose to describe feelings or clothing, or simply the fact that so much emphasis is placed on these aspects of the behaviour.

I still think there's almost more complexity amongst CDers than TS because there is such a wide range of motivations.

Katey x

and for those of us who don't yet know which way is up on the CD-TS boat/submarine/vessel/ship/thing?

i've just come out of a marathon, 9-hour client session, dressed in my old man-clothes, and straight into my pinkest of pink. Aaaahhh, that is SO much better. I don't care what it's called, i'm just enjoying being comfortable and not pretending.

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Originally Posted by Sammy777

Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

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Thank you. At least one person doesn't attribute the way I am to overcompensating. I get a fair amount of grief over my clothes, although really they are quite conservative. I just mostly wear dresses and skirts because I like them. I take crap over my makeup too, although again, mostly well executed I think. I don't like to dress like a frump. What in the hell is the point of that?

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Originally Posted by pamela7

i've just come out of a marathon, 9-hour client session, dressed in my old man-clothes, and straight into my pinkest of pink. Aaaahhh, that is SO much better. I don't care what it's called, i'm just enjoying being comfortable and not pretending.

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Maybe those are really your clothes, and the others aren't?

A cross dresser does her thing for recreation, a transsexual is living life out of necessity.

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Originally Posted by Sammy777

. . . and lets instead look at the differences in how the subject of clothing is approached by a CD'er vs a TS. Now it has been said many times, by many a TS, myself included, that it is not about the clothes. [TS] women wear women's clothes because they are the clothes women wear, plain and simple. Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl . . . Comments? Would love to hear them. :)

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Hi Sammy,

I agree in principle with what you are saying but I don't truly believe we can say "if you dress this way or that way" or "if you are more concerned about fashion or not" you are more TS or CD. I do not consider myself TS nor CD as I lie somewhere within the spectrum. I don't think of my clothes as defining who I am but more an necessity to express my gender. So no, I could not put on my guy clothes, no wig, no makeup and proclaim to he world I am expressing my feminine side as it would not be obvious . . . not to mention using the ladies room would more than likely get me arrested. Contrarily, I could not dress "en femme" with makeup and wig and proclaim I am manly as it would be incongruous with the presentation. So the clothes do not define me they just make it easier to express my gender. I like to dress casually when out with my GG friends, much as they do or more dressy should the occasion call for it and I have been known to wear yoga pants, top and flip flops (with minimalistic makeup) out and about while en femme.

On the flip side of the coin, I have plenty of GG friends who live and die by fashion, they think about it, discuss it and live each and every day of their life. Yes, they may not come to a forum like this and discuss details about their outfit or post pictures but they do so in real time . . . because they can. My GG friends have the latitude (societal) to put on an awesome dress with heels and other accoutrements (if they wish) and show up for a luncheon. We will compliment her, ask here where she bought the dress, and validate her choice of style (even if it is not our choice). We might think . . . "A bit over the top for a luncheon" but we would never think she is trying too hard to be a woman. Heck, I have had GG friends show me countless selfies of outfits they have bought. I am not saying all my GG friends do this but some do because their clothing defines them as the woman they wish to be. This is akin to what you see on this forum . . . discussions about outfits, pictures, advice sought . . . all meant to validate a perceived sense of what that person feels defines them as TG. WRT to lingerie, well let's say you are correct in that many do talk about it on this forum but, in fairness, I have had discussions with GGs about their choice of undergarments which would make most sailor blush.

All this to say, I don't think we can put the binary of "you talk way too much about your clothing and undies" so you must be CD as it is not as clear cut as that much like the TG spectrum is not clear cut. :)

Hugs

Isha

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

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Originally Posted by Sammy777

Some of us may dress like "slobs" jeans, t-shirts, ect. Basically the same way some GG women do on a daily basis.
Granted some GG/TS also, for whatever personal/fashion reasons like to dress a bit better then the average girl.

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Thank you. At least one person doesn't attribute the way I am to overcompensating. I get a fair amount of grief over my clothes, although really they are quite conservative. I just mostly wear dresses and skirts because I like them. I take crap over my makeup too, although again, mostly well executed I think. I don't like to dress like a frump. What in the hell is the point of that?

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Your Welcome :)
Just because my ideal daily outfits happen to be [Stereotypically] seen as "Hipster Soccer Mom Lesbian Casual" :D
I begrudge no woman who wears dresses or skirts and heels on a daily basis simply because "that is what she likes".
I may not show it all that often, but hiding under my flannel there really actually is a "girly side" that does wear dresses on occasion. I even found a pie chart explaining how often and why I wear them. :lol2:

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