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I agree completely - I have used the ladies room many times, but always very discreetly, so as not to confront any of the GG's who are using it as well. I actually have alot of empathy for ladies who have not had much trans exposure, and are suddenly confronted by the sight of a CD in the restroom
...speaking of mobile phones, a while back I was out shopping en femme and at one point was in the ladies' room touching up my make up. All of a sudden - and out of the corner of my eye - I noticed a couple of teenage GG's nearby giggling away and taking selfies of each other. Huh???Quote:
Originally Posted by char GG
I realize that for many GG's, using the ladies' room is sometimes a social event and a group activity, but this? Definitely a WTF??? moment for my male side, as that kind of thing is not what one typically sees happening in the men's rooms. Then again, teenage GG's seem to live in a world of their own when it comes to doing their "girls just wanna have fun" thing, and often thrive on flouting convention.
I know that I flew under the radar that day so no worries on that account, but I still wonder if I inadvertently photo-bombed some of those pics just by being in the background. Just one more pitfall to consider when using the women's restrooms...
With certainty of angering most, I agree with Heatherdress.
Like everybody else, I've used the ladies room. I mean, really, what else are you going to do? It's a predicament for me, and although I do it, I'm often uncomfortable. The single occupancy ones are a non-issue. I've used them in male mode when I had to, as I've seen women use the men's. If you REALLY pass, as some of you do, then it's a non-issue. If I can't get in and out without being seen it's an issue for me, and I've been doing this long enough that I should be used to it.
I've been told to not use the ladies room on one occasion. There was a fast food place where I'd stop to get a bite to eat and use the restroom when I was out specifically because it was never crowded. There were windows all around and I could tell who was in there before I ever entered. I would use the ladies room on my way out, and had done so several times, never with anybody else in there. I had been to this place a few nights earlier, but this time when I started to the restroom and employee told me that I wasn't allowed to use the ladies room anymore. She said they'd talked to the manager and the manager told them to tell me I wasn't allowed. Of course, I've never been back. It was uncalled for, as there was nobody else in there.
I was at a gay bar once where there was a sign on the bathroom doors, something to the effect of "If you're a male you must use the men's room". Seems like there was a specific reference to CD's, but I don't remember for sure.
The most fear I have of using the restroom I have is when I'm not completely dressed, but not completely typical male. In those cases I use the men's room. I often wear high heel boots, or I have polished toes with flip flops. I almost always carry a purse. Having my polished toes or heels visible under the stall or my purse slung over my shoulder while standing at the urinal scares the crap out of me.
I've peed in a cup in my car many times to avoid using a public restroom. I always try to avoid them. I try to go before I have to. If I'm somewhere that has a family or gender neutral restroom I'll use it before I really need to to avoid getting in a situation where I have to go in a less desirable situation. I go back home or to my hotel room just to use the restroom instead of staying out for hours on end. I can usually avoid public restrooms altogether. It's kind of a priority to me. I've never used the men's room when dressed, though.
I get the impression that using the ladies room is kind of a bucket list thing for some. Or it's an "I use the ladies' room therefore I am" thing. I definitely shouldn't be. It's a sensitive issue for a lot of women, and we'd be well advised to respect that.
I find it somewhat ironic that in this era of political correctness and sensitivity training, we can dismiss the sensitivities of others in order to promote what we feel are our own rights. I say this fully aware of the fact that some jurisdictions have legislated that we can use the washrooms of our own choosing. Those lawmakers are also dismissing the sensitivities of others. In an age when we can be fired or charged with harassment for making what some might consider to be a lewd or suggestive remark in the presence of a woman, we can none the less insist on the right to use the female facilities and no one should feel any discomfort whatsoever.
It is a cultural thing. Women in the western world who are middle aged or older have been brought up in a society that segregated the sexes in matters of personal privacy, and allowing men to use the women's washroom can seem like a tremendous invasion of that privacy. This has nothing to do with transphobia or bigotry or fear that we are dangerous perverts. It is simply an instilled belief in what is proper decorum and the polite social graces. Many of the replies by those who regularly use the ladies room, state that they have never encountered any incidents. However, that does not mean that there is not resentment, as the vast majority of people are too polite to cause problems. It could also mean that those CD's are extremely passable, an attribute that many of us could never achieve. Should non-passability be elevated to the status of requiring special legislated protection to enable access to facilities available to some but denied to others because of that inability? Where does it end?
It is also stated by most, that use of the men's facilities is too dangerous when crossdressed. This is a terrible indictment of men, who we must all think of as loutish Neanderthals that cannot be trusted to be civilized, and are prone to physical violence at the slightest provocation. Certainly, there are situations where the men's room can be a dangerous place, but that is the case regardless of what you are wearing. No matter how I am dressed, I try to avoid such places. The same could be said of some women's washrooms, as men do not have a monopoly on boorish behaviour. Those of us who are mostly in the closet are constantly told that it is only are own irrational fear that prevents us from going out. Perhaps it is also that same fear that leads crossdressers to use the women's washroom.
Certainly, those who have transitioned, are in the process of doing so or have chosen to present as female more or less full time should be allowed access to the ladies room. However does that mean all crossdressers should be granted the same privilege, regardless of other factors such as their obvious maleness? Instead of pushing for the right to infringe on the privacy of others, however worthwhile we might consider that to be, perhaps the onus should be on the crossdresser to do his research, and know what type of washrooms will be available before venturing into any public establishment. Also, we should be pushing for more single user washrooms, family restrooms, and even locking outer doors on smaller two or three user facilities. I have seen these in some smaller restaurants and truck stops. I, for one, have no desire to go where my presence is not wanted (if you will pardon the pun).
Veronica
I am glad that we have legislation in many places to protect transgender people and their rights, even if it is confusing and upsetting to some. It does foster awareness and progress. I also apologize for pushing this discussion further, but I am driven by a personal passion that might be hard to both explain and understand.
We believe we are tolerant, knowledgeable and caring on this site. Yet there is a subtle but insensitive attitude towards others which is embedded in this simple rest room rights issue. Most responses just look at this issue from their point of view - they, as crossdressers, do not have problems so it is therefore OK. But there seems to be no empathy or understand for the other users who are women.
1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted or abused in their lifetime. If you were sexually assaulted or abused by a man, your life is forever different. You have anxiety, and fears, difficult to explain, the rest of your life. You might be upset, or scared or angry if a man shows up unexpectedly in a room that you felt some sort of personal vulnerability in as well as some sort of protection or isolation - like a rest room they might believe limits use to women only, regardless if there are new laws and progressive attitudes which extend use to men dressed in women's clothes. I am being rather blunt but you do not have to confront a woman in the bathroom to upset her if she has mental issues, or religious beliefs, or personal values which are threatened. You simply have to enter a room she considers her space.
How is impossible to claim to have never upset anyone when using the women's rest room, or caused them fear, just because you you not heard complaints? Those troubled the most would be the last to complain. If you live with anxiety as a former victim or if you love someone who does, you will better understand, but we simply do need to think of the affects of our behavior deeper than making a statement or exercising a right. Sorry for being preachy, but I do feel we can be disrespectful or hurtful without realizing it.
Children are also unfortunate victims of abuse and can also be further troubled or confused. It is similarly impossible to distinguish those who could be troubled and who would not be.
It is nice to think that all transgender people are more sensitive and more caring than everyone else, and that they never hurt anyone. But unfortunately, that may be our own wishful thinking. Transgender people get angry, make mistakes and even hurt others. They are human, too. But you really don't need to analyze transgender behavior characteristics or rest room crime statistics to simply be more aware that the mere presence, itself, of entering a woman's rest room can be upsetting, painful or troubling to some, and we do need to be careful as others have suggested.
I never half dress. If I am female dressed I will always go to the women's room. If you go in do your business and get out there is no problem. Or I haven't had one yet. Typically when I'm on the road, I go to a mickey D's as they have good bathrooms. My SO asked my why I did that. She informed me that some of the truck stops and big gas stations have decent restrooms. Never had any problems in a restaurant.
I have never been in a ladies room that didn't have doors on the stalls. If I look like a woman in a woman's room, and "do my business " seated and quietly with the door closed, I don't see how there could be much of a problem. I don't linger in the public areas, I just touch up my makeup and lipstick (as do most women there) wash my hands and leave.
Is that as painful as it sounds?!?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kandia
DeeAnn
I usually go in the mens if I can or if I'm accompanied with other real females then use the womens. I'm still a hetro male and not going thru transition so the men can make room for me. Dangerous? Yes it can be. I've had close calls with a bunch of men once. Cowards though are usually mouthy in big numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by pamela7
Pick the one that's best for you and hold your head high.
Like most, I make every effort to avoid the issue. There have been a few occasions when I had no choice. When that happens, I look for a family restroom. If that fails, I go to the ladies room. I have never had a problem.
One time on a road trip in Sarah mode, I stopped at a rest stop for a bathroom. There were two rest stop employees standing near the family bathroom, one male and one female. I started to go into the family bathroom when the male employee pointed out the ladies room to me. The female employee said nothing one way or the other. I thanked him and used the ladies room.
What does that mean? Probably nothing.
It doesn't matter what percentage of men are bothered by a cd in the men's room. It only takes one to potentially put you in the hospital. You're going to be at a disadvantage in a confrontation if you are the one in high heels and a dress.
I used to work at a state park and had to clean the shower/bathrooms every morning. Yes, women will use the men's room without hesitation. These women don't represent the entire female population.
I'm in the minority and don't listen to me but I'm not at a disadvantage if my dress is above the knees. Heels can be kicked off fast. Boots with a zipper is another story but usually there is warning the goon is going to start making a scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah L
Replace "women" with "whites," "men" with "blacks," and "sexes" with "races" and the bigotry of the above statement will be clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica27
I believe your point about women who have experienced abuse being sensitive to men in the washroom is a good one and deserves consideration. This washroom problem is a tough one.Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherdress
I don't believe the 1 in 3 statistic, unless it is based on a very loose definition of assault or abuse. I don't want to hijack the thread off-topic, but I didn't want the 1 in 3 number unchallenged.
Everything else you said seems good to me.
Crossdressing in no way compares to racial discrimination. No way. Not even close..
Yes. What she said. ↑
I was thinking the same thing. Obviously, there are differences but discrimination is discrimination. It boils down to what is society's norm. At one point in time, blacks couldn't ride in the front of the bus, italians couldn't be hired for work, gays couldn't get married or adopt, etc ad finitum. In hindsight, all society norms that were learned to be wrong and corrected. Because its normal for only the same sex to be in a bathroom that makes a CD using their presenting bathroom wrong. I still haven't heard what damage this causes. If it's because females feel this is safe place I ask safe for what? What are they doing in the bathroom that they need any more protection than normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
Some folks seem to live a very sheltered life. The real world with real people is very different.
We're not speaking only of CDing, but of the entire TG community, and discrimination is discrimination wherever it occurs. TG people are not second-class citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
It's likely that there were a few individuals in the black community who also advocated for maintaining the status quo of segregated facilities so as not to offend the supposed sensibilities of the majority. History has proven them wrong and there is no reason to think that discrimination against TG individuals is any different.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Racial distinctions are primarily superficial while the sexual distinction is anatomical. Recognition of that difference, and respecting the need for a degree of privacy in specific situations in no way is bigotry, and considering it to be such belittles the struggle against racial, religious and even gender discrimination. Being raised in a culture of modesty about such things as our sexual differences, does not equate to racial segregation with different drinking fountains or seats on a bus. Different racial washrooms is wrong; different men's and ladies facilities is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
When most crossdressers go out and about, using women's facilities and so on they are usually recognizing the sexual differentiation by the use of body shaping, tucking, wigs and makeup and making themselves as passable as possible. There is an element of deception involved. Being able to fool people into relinquishing their right to privacy seems somehow wrong. I am not referring to transsexuals, or those in the process of transitioning or even those who have made a personal commitment to live as a woman. I am simply referring to those like myself, who like to sometimes crossdress, depending upon my mood and a host of other factors. I feel that it is wrong for me to enter the lady's room unless I am invited or asked to do so because of circumstances.
If it didn't matter which washroom we use, then there would be no point to the deception. Without the need for deception, we could simply be a dude in a dress, with no boobs or makeup, complete with our mustache and beard if we wished. Would you be comfortable using the women's room that way? If so, then why the deception? If not, then why label others as bigots?
Veronica
As they say, "When in Rome"....
If I'm presenting Cheryl to the world then it's the ladies room of course. I'd rather risk the ire of an offended female than the wrath of a testosterone overloaded homophobe.
So to all those here that are afraid of being assaulted or physically harmed by using the men's washroom let me ask you this. If you could choose to use the mens facility with a guarantee you would not be harmed would you do it instead of using the womens?
Or do you feel the need to be in the womens facilities where you truly belong? My stance is unless I go full time I will try to use the mens whenever possible. If I offend a man so what? But that's me.
Since we don't wear buttons that say "I'm a _______" (insert term of art to describe what species of TG one identifies as), how would the Muggle women know this information?
Women's restrooms are not simply a haven for those lucky to blend in with the crowd so I cannot see that as a criteria. Furthermore, discrimination takes on many forms. I had a friend who I told that the trans seemed like the only thing left that people feel free to laugh at. She pointed out something I didn't know, her boss was a dwarf.
I stood corrected.
I am still confused as to what GG's are doing in bathrooms that that this need for privacy is so important. Are they taking their tops off at the sinks or dropping their pants there? Or in reality is most of the private stuff going on behind closed doors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica27
I disagree and raise you on that. How can you define a crossdresser from a Transsexual in public? Now, I agree with Eryn, and I know you don't because you are a man in a dress (you have stated that over and over again) but really, if you were TS you would see that I am in the same boat as the blacks were 40 years ago (sorta have some background there too but we will get back on topic) or other minorities. I fully understand YOU think we can turn it off and on and needed because you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
The use of the restroom by a trans individual should be the one that they present as (poor sentence structure). The sexual assault is a HUGE red herring in all this because sexual assaults by men on women are usually not by men PRESENTING as woman. Now if we are discussing assaults look at how many transwomen are beaten and killed BY men for no reason other than they are TRANS. Being in a male area, in a compromising state (i.e. a dress or skirt) is an open invitation to violence. If the CDs don't think they need to see this, you need to start understanding more than your 3 ft circle.
So unless you want to start wearing name tags that say "HI I'm ________ and I'm really a man " you use the restroom that fits your appearance
Always the ladies room, no matter how terrible I look. In emergencies, I've used it in drab before.