Jennie
Would you be satisfied with a mixed style or do you find its either all man or all woman?
I'm just wondering about your statement regarding recognition which I totally agree with.
But how can you present an inbetweener to the masses?
Jennie
Would you be satisfied with a mixed style or do you find its either all man or all woman?
I'm just wondering about your statement regarding recognition which I totally agree with.
But how can you present an inbetweener to the masses?
There are inbetweeners who present androgynous/mixed style and there are inbetweeners who sometimes present male and sometimes present female. As far as the masses, I think it would be valuable for the public to understand that some inbetweeners present androgynous and some present either or. Some present androgynous and either or. I think it's most important for people to understand that there is great diversity amoungst us period and we like the rest of humanity deserve respect and acceptance.
I don't know if happy about being Transgender would always fit for me, but I do feel Transgender definitely does fit me. Although technically at least, Transgender is still considered a spectrum.
For me, yes, I feel I am an inbetweener. Those feelings do not change regardless of how I am dressed or whatever activity I may be doing.
There are times when it feels like I only identify as a woman. Then other times only as a male. Most often I do feel some sort of both.
When I do dress, it is merely just a comfortable expression. I am not uncomfortable dressed in male clothing. Neither to me ever feels wrong. There are times though when feeling strongly feminine the desire to present as such is quite strong.
I have always had feminine mannerisms. For me. It is not something I have ever had to learn or practice. It is all very natural to me. Growing up and being born male, I have only learned to suppress these, and I am not always successful at doing so. When I am feeling stronger on the feminine side, this becomes even harder.
What stops me from living full time or possibly transitioning are those times when I feel and enjoy the masculinity I do have. I think I would miss it at least. So, for me going that route is not the correct path. For me, my path is one of acceptance of who I am, and balance as much as I can. Compromise is not some do just for my wife or kids or society, but I do it for myself as well. I feel both genders and both needs to compromise for each other.
Hi all,
I thought I might be able to add my two cents here for discussion as at one time I identified "gender fluid" but we all know that kind of went south within a month. It is not that I thought "gender fluid" or any other middle ground on the TG spectrum did not exist, it was because the reality of being TS crashed down upon me once I was given latitude to express myself as a woman now and again in my professional life (work). Before I begin . . . I am going to tack a rider on to my last statement . . . I am not saying that A leads to B which leads to C and so on until you Z. Specifically gender fluid or other middle ground points don't necessarily lead to being TS. Sometimes A just leads to B or C :).
When I first gravitated to this forum a few years back I was completely and utterly confused, angry, resentful, bitter, and in a very dark place emotionally. Oh, I knew there was something buried deep and on this site I found kinship, others like me and I latched on to that like a drowning person latching on to a life preserver . . . I was CD and others were like me . . . I was a guy who like to wear women's clothes. I explored, read, went into therapy and as some here know, penned countless long winded social experiments, musings and whatnot on what it meant to be TG. Yup . . . TG. By that point I quickly realized that being TG was not a set in stone "thou shalt do this and that only" but a fluid moving target . . . watch the wheel folks, round and round she goes and where she'll stop, nobody knows :GD: By that time, I began to identify as having what many term as a desire to express my feminine self. That made sense as I was out and about in public, drinking lattes, eating lunch, window shopping and feeling good about it. So I settled as TG . . . again, it felt right and I was gladly holding on to that life preserver again as it was keeping me in check . . . emotionally.
However as things are never want to stay static . . . especially if you are feeling good about yourself . . . stupid life . . . the emotional balance slowly drained out of my latte sipping, window shopping days. Some strange force yanked the life preserver away and I began to sink again. So back to therapy and my therapist would never answer my question of "Who was I?" it was always a dodge and deflect of "Who do you think you are?". So I ruminated all along treading water and then a life preserver slowly slipped into view . . . "It wasn't about feeling like a woman it was about being a woman" . . . Wait a minute Sherlock, you can't be a woman because you are a guy . . . right? Why can't I be both, a male me and female me? Good question so let's explore with the therapist . . . response "Do you think that is possible?":facepalm: Seriously, why was I paying this person (I jest, she was great and doing what any good therapist should do . . . make you question yourself).
So I grabbed a hold of the life preserver "gender fluid" and began to take steps in my professional life to work some days as a woman and other days as a man. But I was still bobbing along on the high seas, life preserver in hand with no shore in sight. Being a woman at work felt great, normal, natural . . . authentic. Being a guy . . . not so much. When I was him, I could feel her behind my eyes and missed her. When I was her, nada from male me. I soon realized the only reason I was presenting male at work was because that was part of the original workplace accommodation . . . male some days, female other. Then . . . the big crash . . . there was no "him" it was always just "her". He was a façade, a hold over from what society forced on me . . . boy parts equal boy, not girl. I remember that day, I had gone into the study, coffee in hand and prepared to read this very forum. I took a sip of coffee and noticed my male uniform hanging the closet realizing that Monday I was going to have to wear it and then . . . I cried . . . cried . . . cried and when I thought I could stop, I cried again. My wife came down and was terrified . . . she asked if was okay and all I could respond with was "I'm a woman not a man" That day, he effectively died, I finally saw the shore, let go of my preserver, swam hard and struggled to shore.
Now what does this have to do with being "gender fluid" you may ask . . . bottle the genie Marcelle for goodness sake :raisedeyebrow:. For me I experienced all aspects of this wonderful spectrum of ours in an effort to lead me where I needed to be. Gender fluid was a real construct to me I truly felt I was both and not in some weird Sybill Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as Multiple Personalities) kind of way where one personality is not aware of the other. I felt fully integrated in that they were the same person and each just needed to express themselves in different ways. We carry many identities with us in life and each takes on a different guise/aspect depending on the situation. Soldier me (work identity) is quite different from social me. So it is not a stretch to believe that one can have both genders and express them in different ways to varying degrees. You might be a guy 99.9% of the time but when you are a girl that .01% of the time, you see yourself as a woman and identify as such and this has nothing to do with going out, working as a woman . . . it is an internal sense of self. On the other hand you might split 50/50, 60/40 and you identify as each gender accordingly. Again, IMHO has nothing to do with "street cred" . . . it is about the individual and how they feel. Nobody can tell a person just because you don't live 24/7 as one gender you can't possibly identify as that gender . . . that would assume that person knows you better than you and that would be arrogant. However, IMHO where you cross the Rubicon WRT to the TG spectrum is when you land back on the binary (man/woman). If you are a man, identify as a man even when you are all frilly and frocked up, you are not fluid. If at times you truly feel like a woman when dressed (or not) but you can still feel "guy you" floating along like some disembodied spirit and you feel good about that . . . you are fluid in the sense you don't identify in the binary. When I swam ashore that day, I was no longer fluid I was static . . . a woman. However, until that time . . . I was in flux and very fluid. :)
Cheers
Marcelle
Katy - An interesting discussion. I think you identify crossdressing commonality for most under the "transgender" label. But I do think there are significant differences pertaining to needs, purpose and identity depending on where you are on the transgender spectrum. I also believe the behavior of crossdressing is probably OK to most of us and maybe most people, but the label of being a crossdresser is likely to be more troublesome and more negative.
I think all MTF crossdressers possess more than a simple drive to express a feminine look when transformed or they would not continue to crossdress. Their desire or need to continue to crossdress is probably part of their identity, as a manner of expressing purpose or reason as well as an outlet and a means to an end. I personally cannot identify feeling that crossdressing is driven by an ability to "yell at the world" because it is usually always a very private behavior, done alone, at home, or with the intent to be unnoticed or to "pass". I do feel that many needs are satisfied by dressing, regardless of the degree to which we dress and express ourselves. For some they may be primarily sexual needs, for others, maybe a vast array of physical, psychological and emotional needs, known and unknown, strong or subtle - but real. The accompanying feelings of freedom, naughtiness, fulfillment, excitement, joy, guilt, confusion, aloneness - are also shared by all of us, to varying degrees. I always enjoy dressing and feel happy and fulfilled.
Mixed is what I'd say my normal state is these days. Most days I wear jeans and they're always "women's" jeans. My shirts are a mix from both sides of the aisle and I pick the one that makes me happy that day, not the one that's men's or women's. I always wear earrings, my nails (finger and toe) are always painted and when I leave the house I'm usually wearing some amount of jewelry. My eyebrows are waxed, the hair from the ears down -- I might be a little fuzzy in places for lack of effort on a given day but generally it's pretty unmistakable that it's been removed on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
But when you say "satisfied"...? I would not be happy if there was a time I couldn't get totally femmed up with dress, wig and makeup because some days I need that. And I wouldn't be happy if I could never again dress "totally male" (allowing for the nails.)
How do I represent inbetweener to the masses? Both sides have to understand for that to happen. I'm afraid at the moment I represent "eccentric" to the masses because "oh, transgender" just isn't a natural thought to them at this point in history. One thing I have come to realize (and I'm probably repeating myself) is I don't actually want to "pass" any more. I don't want people to see Jennie in her best dress and think I'm a woman. I want them to think I'm a (hot) person who was probably born male but is presenting female (even though they don't have that concept.) I'm really hoping over time we can get to a point where people can say, "Oh, transgender" and not give it another thought just as they now say "oh, a woman" or "oh, a man." In that perfect world, my driver's license will have T in the gender box and if I use the ladies room when I'm in a dress and someone starts to freak I can show the nice officer my driver's license and he'll say, "Oh, well, it's OK then." ;)
Let me try to put into words, how I feel, which answers your very good questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
Like I posted earlier I consider myself Genderfluid and TG. My belief is that the difference between crossdressers and TG are that for crossdressers the clothes and the presentation are the beginning, middle and the end. The experience is solely external. Where TG comes into play is that the feeling is both internal and external, there are feelings and emotions that accompany the time enfemme time. The clothes are just a tool for the experience, I can feel like Gretchen without a stitch of female clothing on.
The difference between TG and TS, (again my view only) is that TG has no issue with there born with gender, it just varies the percentage they need to present as the other gender. So for me, it's 80/20 male, but any ratio that does not contain zero applies. TS detests there born with gender and can not survive without some degree of transition.
I consider my brain a Venn diagram, the intersection are my base tendencies that define me in both male and female. However, the outer corners are unique to my male and the female role, my therapist thinks that the female side is much larger than I currently thought.
Great thread, Katey!
I believe that I fall in the "happily transgender" category. I was raised as a male, and am comfortable with the bits I was born with. That said, I have always had a fascination with females and the differences between my own life, clothing, etc. and theirs. I also have a strong preference toward female friends. No one would describe me as macho, but am probably closer to that end of behavior than to the effeminate. My two daughters (one 20-something and one 30-something) tell me on occasion that I behave like "such a guy," although not when we are all getting mani-pedis together lol.
I have put some thought into what it would be like and how it would feel to be a woman, but primarily as a thought or empathetic exercise. I would not seriously consider transitioning in any sense. I would estimate I identify as 70% male, but the remaining 30% female part of me is very important!
I don't know the "correct" definition of transgender, but it seems reasonable that a person who chooses to express two different genders in their clothing, etc. is not best described as one of the binary genders and is thus "trans." I don't claim to understand it, or why it describes me, but it does -- and I'm ok with that.
I'm about as mixed (up) as you can get.
I live every day expressing both genders. I *am* both genders. I don't need to imagine what it would feel like, it is my daily existence.
I'm not Trans, I have no desire to change myself. I'm quite content with who I am.
Nobody should feel like a failure for not being 'pure'. You are who you are, and you have value. I don't care if all you do is slip on a dress when alone. You are YOU. That is admirable and valuable.
- MM
Dana,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
In regards to what I quoted above from your earlier post. When Becky mentioned that what you wrote did not sound like something that would be said by someone that identifies as a woman or partly as a woman you mentioned that you were most likely in your "male persona".
I have seen this term used quite a bit on here by people that are both self identified CD's and gender fluid people like yourself.
So my question to you as a self identified gender fluid person, when you make this switch does your personality change as well? To me (and maybe this is the confusing part for me) is when you say "my male persona" or "my female persona" it sounds like two different people, especially when you add in that when you wrote something that you most likely would have been in your "male Persona". So that makes me think you would have written something different if you were in your female persona...
I am only curious and by no means is this trying to prove or disprove anything. Just looking to learn...
Hi Katey,
I saw the thread earlier today and made a mental note to check it out later. There has been a lot of thought provoking sharing on your question. I will try to reflect on your question.
First, I am comfortable identifying as a transgender individual; and I am happy. I have put blinders on to block out the world’s opinion of what I should be, i.e. a ‘standard issue’ male, and as a result, I am able to get in touch with the real me, which is ~60% female to 40% male.
Coming to terms with my identity eliminated melancholy and even a passing suicide thought some 8 years ago. I do not ever want to return to those days. Accepting this side of me has enabled me to have more fun with family and at work. It also has given me more confidence when around siblings and work colleagues. (Interestingly, I have been wearing bras to work for some time and I thought the bras provided the confidence, but it really is my acceptance of being TG that provided the changes.)
Today, I am in a better place mentally due in part to this forum, the internet and personal reflection. I am happy where I am at in my life, but strive to expand my individuality. One of my favorite songs, Ray Stevens’ Everything is Beautiful (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a45z_HG3WU), includes a line – everybody is beautiful in their own way that has always touched (and teary eyes today) . Unfortunately, because I lived the majority of my life according to traditional male expression expectations, I covered up my inner beauty. No more cover up for me, as I believe I am on higher ground today and a HAPPY TG!
Megan, Well I would say that it is two aspects of the same person. Perhaps persona is the wrong word. We had discussions about that in the DES thread. But I must say that strangely I switch like no other and am unique. But the switch is a real male/fem interchange and as a male I do not put on a skirt or anything fem. But when I switch to fem I do feel comfortable as a female out and about and do feel that way. But they are different aspects of me. I see that no one understand it and it is hard to explain. But there are others like me out there and no one like me on this site. But some days I am male and others female. As I have stated it has been that way for my whole time on this earth and it took me half of a lifetime to figure it out. As I had that issue I was never comfortable in my skin. I would love to be one gender and not have that issue. So, I had to beat to my own drum my whole life. Take for example a type A male. He is comfortable in his skin. But my dealing with them I could see far farther than they did. I did not feel like them and knew I was different. And at strange times I would get this switch and felt so much different that I could not express it. I finally figured it out. If it took me half a lifetime it would be really hard to explain.
'Facsimile'
I know it wasn't your main point.
Nobody here is facsimile, a copy. We are all just who we are.
Some us are blessed and have total support, some are stuck in a DADT situation. NONE of us are a facsimile.
We all have very different living situations, each measured by what we can 'pass' on.
I respect you transitioners more than I can describe. I personally know members here who only wear girl clothing in privacy.
They are still sisters and are worthy of our support and respect.
Great that you are a GM and know you are a girl. Not all of us have evolved that far.
- MM
as usual, this type of discussion has degenerated into a who can pee higher on the tree match. Let's get this back on track and not about TS vs CD vs Horned frog ok? Read the OP, respond to the OP within the perimeters of the question asked.
Yes. M'am. I personally believe you crossed unneeded lines, M'am.
Deleting posts like that was a bad call.
I'm certain this will be deleted. Some will see it.
I'm inflammatory, but not without cause . Some of this stuff doesn't deserve the type space.
- MM