Woman vs Female

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Originally Posted by Zooey

There are a lot of things about the experience of living as a woman that I am INTIMATELY familiar with however.

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AND a lot of things that you're NOT.

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The vast majority of my women friends are cis, and somehow we have considerable overlap in our experiences and our views of the world.

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When in the company of others, I spend about 90% of my time with women. Despite our shared experiences, as well as 'views of the world', I don't pretend to be able to somehow magically 'know' what it feels like to be them. I get it; you think you know better than all of us, do. Where oh where have I heard all that before......

Does spending time with my SO count as spending time with woman? If so, then I'd say I spend 90% of the time with woman and have a lot of shared experience too :) Especially with her knowing me CD, I can even spend more time shopping with her and able to discuss girl things.

- Bonnie

It really doesn't matter what planet we decide to reside on, no one can know exactly what is in another persons head, it's wrong to tell them they are wrong when they know how they feel inside. It is not all about living a fantasy , sometimes it might lead to it with simply to have some fun.

Look at the other way women can't and won't understand what makes a CDer do what he does, they may not like it but whatever they think or say isn't going to change that.
What some of us feel is our version of dressing, looking and possibly living as a female, because our parts aren't all consistent with how we feel it's wrong to say what our feelings are like when expressing a female side.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

Alternatively, all of those words have actual definitions, which aren't predicated on your feelings... Without HRT, I was male no matter how I felt about it. Medically, with the exception of reproductively, my body is more female than male at this point, so my doctors treat me that way. If you're a natal male comfortable living as male/a man, that makes you a cis man - not trans. "TG" has lost it's meaning; gender non-conformance is not gender-identity. Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors. Prior to actually living as a woman, I was definitely trans, but I somewhat regret claiming to BE a woman at that point. Life is a harsh teacher though, and my identity as a woman grows more developed every day.

We don't have to redefine words to talk honestly, openly, or compassionately about our issues.

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But redefine is exactly what you are doing. You denigrate the accepted use of TG as being meaningless. Then say that "woman" is a lived gender identity. That is just another way to redefine the term to exclude others that aren't full time, part time, or whatever your personal cut off is. I am perfectly fine with you making your own definition of terms when applied to yourself. When you use those personal definitions to exclude others that is anything but honest or compassionate discussion. I personally am gender fluid in that I'm am comfortable as presenting as both male or female. If I had to choose only one gender then that would be female. Since I don't have to choose, that does not make me any less trans then you or others. The prevailing definitions of most of those gender terms are not in line with your usage. And that ultimately leads to the "not trans enough" attitude that I see far too often. Does HRT, or breasts, or bottom surgery make you trans enough? How about FFS or years spent transitioned and socialized? Others would exclude you because you will always have Y chromosomes. I spend my time defining who I am and how I live my life and trust that I am the only one who can do that!

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Originally Posted by Sally24

But redefine is exactly what you are doing. You denigrate the accepted use of TG as being meaningless.

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The problem is the word "Transgender" has lost all its meaning. If you ask a CIS person who has no knowledge of the trans community they will tell you that it means people who transition.. ie transsexuals. I have seen many people on here identity as TG and not ,TS,cd, gf,NB ect... So in essence it has lost its meaning due to misuse...

I met with my local member of parliament 4-5 months ago and we were talking about a bill that was introduced to extend human rights protections to trans people. She got on the topic of bathrooms and had mentioned that she felt that transgender people should be able to use the bathroom that they identity with. So long story short I explained to her what the true meaning of transgender was (umbrella term) and that by saying that she was implying that she was ok with men who dressed up occasionally (some for sexual reasons) using that same washroom and suddenly her tone changed. She thought transgender meant people who have (or are in the process) changed sex...

So there is just one example of how the word has been misused and not fully understood..

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Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan

Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel

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Actually I find the exact opposite..

On an online forum the only thing that we have to be able to communicate with is words than the definitions are extremely important. If someone said "When I dress up I feel sexy, I feel pretty, I feel feminine" than no one would have batted an eye at it.... becuase you are talking about an emotion that yes women sometimes feel when the need comes to dress up. Those are valid emotions that women feel..

But by saying you feel like a woman is talking about an innate gender identity and we feel that regardless of what we are wearing.....I feel like a woman when I am out in the garden covered in dirt wearing old male sweatpants and Tshirt...

If transgender is a meaningless term, cisgender is beyond meaningless, given that it is defined solely as "not transgender".

Tina, I agree. Since TG has lost its meaning, please consider any usages of "cisgender" in any of my posts to mean, "not suffering from diagnosable gender dysphoria with an associated need to transition", which is a definition inclusive of the vast majority of the people here.

It does not include non-binary people who need to and do transition to living full-time as an ambiguous gender, as I believe those who do so are reasonably suffering from gender dysphoria to a point which affects their normal lives and are therefore reasonably described as - at least - not cisgender. On this forum, from what I can tell this group is made up of about 3-4 people, most of whom are in the NB forum (it is a small minority of that group).

Good gollies Miss Mollies! So far, there have been 1,260 reads and 57 responses. Each of you have made excellent points. Thanks for that. But to reiterate my reason for posting... Please don't tell any male that he can NOT feel like a woman when dressed, because he is NOT a female. Just let him "feel" the way he wants to and expresses.

Best quote ever on this forum from years ago "Just because you put frosting on your head, doesn't make you a cupcake."

True, not a cis-cupcake, but you might feel like one, huh. Sorry, Lorileah, I couldn't resist ... lol

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Originally Posted by Megan G

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Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan

Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel

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Actually I find the exact opposite..

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Eh, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by you find the opposite. I only talked about how Zooey seems to be not trying to understand what other people feel and only focus on herself. And that is causing a miscommunication that's going on now.

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Originally Posted by Megan G

But by saying you feel like a woman is talking about an innate gender identity and we feel that regardless of what we are wearing.....I feel like a woman when I am out in the garden covered in dirt wearing old male sweatpants and Tshirt...

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IMO, "feeling like a woman" doesn't necessarily talk about your innate gender identity. Again, I'm saying that it's just an expression to say how one feels like at that moment. For example, if you have long hair (for no CD reason), you may make a joke with your friend saying "I feel like a woman now". How about that statement? Does it mean one is expressing their gender identity? In this case, no. One just wants to make a joke that "I can look like a woman now because of my long hair, but I don't mean I am a woman just because of this".

Seriously, I think we are taking the "feel like a woman" too seriously (no pun intended :) ).

- Bonnie

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Originally Posted by Megan G

The problem is the word "Transgender" has lost all its meaning due to misuse...

I met with my local member of parliament 4-5 months ago and we were talking about a bill that was introduced to extend human rights protections to trans people. She got on the topic of bathrooms and had mentioned that she felt that transgender people should be able to use the bathroom that they identity with. So long story short I explained to her what the true meaning of transgender was (umbrella term) and that by saying that she was implying that she was ok with men who dressed up occasionally (some for sexual reasons) using that same washroom and suddenly her tone changed.

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Because some people do not understand the term does not show that it has lost all meaning. That's an education problem.

And the majority, at least in the past, of trans people who lobbied for the laws in New England were not full time transitioned people. We were CD's and other Transgender people. There were very few fully transitioned men and women who lobbied because they had no protections until we got those laws on the books. I fully support full access to public accommodations by ALL transgender peoples. If you start drawing lines there it always ends with someone wanting you to prove that you've had "the surgery".

I find the "feeling like a woman" question interesting. In my therapy session last week I was asked if I felt like a woman when I went out in public for the first time. In dressing at home I never felt like a woman, I just felt feminine, and suddenly more complete. So, when she asked me this question I felt like there was no way I could make claim to feeling like a woman. However, when I went back out to group this week I paid more attention to that question and since I was being accepted by others in Trans form I really in many ways felt like a woman several times that night. There's still no question I'm a guy, and even when trying to pass I'm still very self-conscious, but that feeling was there.

That said, I still acknowledge my ignorance about what feeling like a woman actually is.

- Sandra

Jenny,
Interesting conversation you have sparked here. Nice to see a broad (not a gender specific pun intended.. ) range of ideas. Appears to me to be a sliding scale, and where you land is up to your own experience and opportunity. Had a conversation with a man today who was talking about an argument he had last night with his wife, and we somehow got into the "traditional" roles of male and female. He likes to build things in his shop (and last night ignored is wife a bit too long), but also likes to cook and shop. His wife does not like to shop, however. Different ranges and activities please everyone differently. And it also seems that we change over time, and can be fluid in our thinking.

I think I'll let folks be who they want to be, and not worry too much about pinning labels. Labels are helpful when picking out a dress, but as we all know... not every size 16 (or 8 or 12 or 24) fits the same. Got to try it on, see how it feels. Same thing applies to how you live. I think..

Hope your quest, your journey, and your life are filled with joy... And a few dark chocolates along the way..

Lauren

What does feeling or being a woman actually mean? There are behaviours and society norms that are more associated with one gender or another. But what about a Cis gendered 'normal' woman, who likes to dress in jeans and a t-shirt and doesn't particularly like dresses? What about a woman who loves football and prefers action movies? What about a career woman who will stop at nothing in her quest to get to the top? Are these woman any less female or less womanly than a stay at home mother? Of course not, my point is we are all people and we are all different.

I believe that gender is a continuum and not binary many of us (particularly on here) have many feminine aspects to our makeup.

I believe that that fact that i hate my body hair or that I feel so good with the swell of breasts or that I don't enjoy the company of 'the boys', are examples of many indications that I am closer to the female side in my head... what does that make me? Not a woman, but also not a man.

WOW. A deep, deep thread. So much to cover here.
My take........
As my signature line suggests, there IS a woman inside of me. But I'm grounded enough in my own reality to understand SHE is not a real woman; nor do i believe I am a woman; nor do I think I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. None of that. It's more like the Spirit of a woman, the feelings I may imagine a woman to have or even the personality of women I like or the woman personality I imagine my femme side to be. I don't know if they're the real feelings of a real woman, because Ilene is not a REAL woman and never had those experiences first hand. It is Ilene's construct, this Woman inside me. How she came to be, who she is and any identity she holds remains a mystery (for most of us?), and too deep a subject to cover in one thread.

BUT.........
I understand rationally that Ilene is not a woman. She is me in women's clothing.

My informed views changed considerably during the Caitlyn Jenner drama. God Bless her (Caitlyn). Love her (him, Bruce). I have the most heartfelt sympathy and empathy for the gender dilemma she suffered. I believe we've ALL experienced it to some degree; the anxiety of knowing you're different. I feel her pain. [Yet frankly, the whole publicly played out drama was a bit over-wrought, and in the end may have hurt the TG movement... I don't know.]

The one thing I really took away after thinking about it was how different are the lives of men who sincerely believe they are women (and in some cases genetically disposed, or hermaphrodites, etc.), and the lives of real girls/women. The two are not even comparable. [And please excuse me if I don't express this gracefully enough to suit real TG's. I'm with you, girls. Please.]

I went to one of my granddaughters dance recitals long ago. Loved it, especially watching the little girls. I really enjoy watching how young girls socialize with one another and older girls. A great thing to watch. BTW.... for the most part, BOYS can't do it. They don't do it; not that way.

It's not just the group/gender socialization that makes a difference. The Obvious once again dawned on me. I have daughters too, so I know. Each of those little girls will grow up (in general) physically smaller and weaker than male counterparts. They will live their approaching adult life as targets for bullies, sexual assault, rapists, muggers/criminals, etc. for that very reason. Easier prey.
Imagine (you as a guy) strolling though daily life, every day, with the idea parked in the back of your mind that a stranger can pick YOU out of a crowd to violently invade your body orifices at any moment. I never had some pimply 16 yr old lout try to rip off my bra in a heat. That's REAL life for REAL women. I imagine Bruce Jenner [Olympian] no matter how hot he looked in a dress ever had to fear about forceable entry of his male stature.



All these things women can do as part of their normal life cycle experience and function. No matter how hard I try; not matter how deeply I go into the depths of my own soul to find my spiritual inner Woman, I know I can never BE a woman. No matter how I may wish or pretend, I will never have the life experiences (yes the bad ones too). I am me (and that's a good thing even if Me is in a dress).
Maintain perspective.

I feel almost an outsider when reading the many well-expressed and sensibly argued points here. This forum - this web site - includes the word "crossdresser" in its title and that's the key word for me. I have never worn a wig or used make-up; I don't possess any breast forms; I don't shave my body. Sadly, I've never been out dressed fully as a woman - though I have been "underdressed". That isn't to say I would not have liked to do any or all of those things but the opportunity hasn't arisen. I know I am not a woman and don't look like one. None of that really matters to me because my interest is in the clothing, the dressing. All I ever really wanted to know is what it feels like to wear (some of) the clothing worn by (some) women. The brackets are there because, for reasons I can't explain, I have no interest, for example, in wearing jeans or leggings or shorts, even if they are designed and cut for women. What I enjoy is experiencing what it feels like to be in a dress, to wear a bra, to wear tights or stockings, to wear shoes with high heels or platforms. Of course I don't know whether what it feels like to me is the same as it feels like to a woman: probably not, if only because my body is a different shape from that of most women. The bra, for example, can't feel the same because I don't have breasts. I don't suppose my girdles feel as they would on a woman because of the difference in the waist-hip ratio. In other words, I want to know what it feels like to wear those clothes and I believe I can get some idea of that - but it still will not be the same feeling that a woman gets.

It goes just a little further for me. As well as simply wearing the clothes I want to try to experience "doing things" while wearing them. Unfortunately I can't go as far as I would like - walking in a dress and heels across the park on a breezy day; getting in and out of a car in a smart, slim skirt; dashing through the rain hampered by heels and with wet stockings - and thousands of other every-day experiences. What I can do is feel what it's like to relax and watch TV in a dress with a silky slip beneath, covering legs in nylons held up with tight suspenders, feeling what it's like to have my waist held firmly in a girdle and my chest hugged by a bra. I can know what it's like to walk down the street wearing (under my male clothes) tights and a pantie girdle; to wait for, go up the stairs and sit on a bus in a suspender belt, stockings and bra. I can try different skirts, different tops, different dresses, different petticoats, different shoes with different heels, different bras - soft, underwired, long-line, lacy - different girdles, sheer tights, control-top tights, short skirts, long skirts, big skirts, straight skirts.....all these things in every combination. I think I have some idea what women's clothes feel like.....and just a little idea of how women might feel when they wear them. I will never feel like a woman.

Here's the deal... If you all believe you understand how women feel, then go convince a doctor to get you on HRT. None of this mythical low-dose crap either - get your hormone levels female-normative. Transition. Start living full-time as a woman. Everywhere, all the time. Call me in a year or two to tell me how your perspective on how women feel hasn't changed, and how well you understood women all along.

You won't do it, of course, because you're not women, and even if you started, it would likely end up dangerously miserable for you. That's the smart decision, btw.

Cis women are born female. They become women. I was born transexual. I became a woman.

Zooey, no one here ever said they know how woman feels. Please, do read it again, carefully, and you'll see for yourself that a lot of us already understand a significant difference between male and female and we will never understand it. I'd like to say, it does apply to you as well. You'll never know how the real woman who's born from birth feels like. They have more experiences as a woman than you. At most you can say you have more experiences as, by definition, a trans woman more than us and only you know how it really feels like. But you can never truly understand other genetic woman feels like because you've had no experiences as a girl from childhood, and so on.

I'll say it again as I said in my earlier post already, I believe most people here just want to express "I feel like a woman" because they think they feel like a woman from their own imagination. It does not mean they know how other real woman feel. No one ever claimed to know that so far I've read here.

- Bonnie

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Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan

I'll say it again as I said in my earlier post already, I believe most people here just want to express "I feel like a woman" because they think they feel like a woman from their own imagination.

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Or maybe they want to feel as if they are feeling like women? Isn't the fantasy a deeply rooted part of the CDing?

Reine, that's a good point, which is still a question I have whether what does "Feel like a woman" really mean. But I don't want us to jump to any one conclusion that it means one thing and not the other. Because that's what I see from what Zooey is saying recently.

- Bonnie

Bonnie, I take what people say here at face value, because all we have here are words.

My whole point is to get people to recognize what they're actually saying, and why it doesn't work in some cases. I also take people here at face value when they say hurtful, offensive, and/or regressive things about women in society. When you've got people saying some of those things about women, while simultaneously claiming to understand how women feel, you've got a pretty substantial problem. If they're saying what they mean, it's one kind of problem. If they're not saying what they actually mean, that's a problem too, albeit a different one.

Given that you've got a group of men here who routinely claim to want to be "more connected with their femininity" and talk about how well they understand women, you'd think they'd be less argumentative when women come in with the occasional "Well, actually...". This is not the only place where men presume to mansplain womanhood and femininity to women (it happens all the time), but given the common interests of most of the men here, it is one of the most simultaneously hilarious and infuriating.

Yes, you have a point about someone may not truly know what they're saying actually means. But it could be the other way that someone may not know what others have said actually mean. In a communication world, that's a problem because a listener is getting a different perception of what speaker is truly conveying. BUT, who's wrong here? Both, speaker and listener. Speaker is wrong here because he/she can't convey the real message to listener. Listener is wrong here because he/she can't understand what speaker is trying to say.
What you said sounded like you blame on the speaker side only, which in this case, is mostly CD here. And listener is either CD/TS/woman here. And so to correct the miscommunication to make both sides on the same page, Both need to come to the middle-ground that each agree upon.

From what I've seen here, it seems most CDs understand the "I feel like a woman" said by other CD because we are more similar and get the same feeling and can relate to each other more.
However, it seems like anyone who identified themselves as woman seem to get it differently. So, if that's the case, this maybe something that a male should say differently to woman to make them understand better, or maybe a woman should come to understand what a male actually means by saying this.

- Bonnie

So, if I'm understanding you correctly Bonnie... You think that it's incumbent upon men to only talk about woman "their way" in the company of other men, but be more polite about it in front of women? Conversely, you think that it's incumbent upon women to step aside when men use poor language that all too often minimizes the value of our gender by reducing it to a set of physical sensations triggered by fabric because we should understand what they really mean?

Okay.

Weirdly, the men here seem to get pretty riled up when women start saying things about the oppression of women in our society that they feel might reduce men to dirty, violent, muscle-bound beasts. Don't they know that that's not what we really mean?

Hmm.. not quite so, you seem to understand partially what I'm trying to say. Well, it seems by a male saying "Feel like a woman" implies offence and rude to you. I'm not sure why is that? Why don't you focus on the real intention of a male saying this. Please don't imply any bad meaning to this, that's not what many of us are trying to say. I think as long as we have a good intention of saying it, there should be nothing wrong.

And now, if you still insist this means bad to you, why would a male saying this to each other annoy you? It's just a matter of using a different language because it's easily understood. I kind of get your feeling if someone talk something bad about you behind your back and you know it you would feel frustrated. But, why don't you think they it's just a matter of different language and there's no bad intention of saying so?

- Bonnie