I'm on the GG side. We need to start taking resonsibility for who we are

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Your one in a million, Di.... How about mythical... hehehe.... I don't know why I argue with a woman... I know I will always loose.... happends wevery time!!! So say there are 350 million people in US and Canada.... 50% male, 75% over 18, 5% crossdress, and 50% are married and you two are the only accelting GG's around...... That's 0.0000305% Rounding error... hehehe One in 3.25 million to be exact....

Karren

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I think there are more than you know Karren.
I'm much happier, as is elly , now that I know she is transgendered. No more "secrets" or anything..not that it was really secret to begin with...

Anyway, there are alot more ggs who are accepting than you are giving credit to. I don't like being mythical or imaginary, I don't live in a fairy tale world and I have to work just like everyone else. Yes it is work to be accepting just like anything else in a relationship. It takes time, patience and desire to reach a goal. please don't dismiss a whole group of people on the forums just because your wife doesn't accept it. Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't..if that's the problem discuss that instead of slandering a group of people by saying they don't exist.
:devil:

After Michelle's original post I, in part, said:

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Originally Posted by Barbara4242

"Well said, Michelle . . . (y)ou are absolutely right!!! To use the title of a Billy Joey song, "It's a Matter of Trust." IMHO, a marriage is only as strong as the foundation upon which it is built. Build it on lies and deception, and I don't care how smart you are or how careful you hide your secret, your marriage is built on a foundation that is doomed to crumble!!!

And, most people (men and women) that I know, will, when they find out they have been lied to in a major way, will always wonder, "what else has this person been lying about." Trust is broken -- and broken trust is perhaps one of THE most difficult things to rebuild in a relationship!!!

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I would like to add one more thing in the context of what I originally said, the plight of "married with children CDs" notwithstanding. No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. If acting appropriately has consequences, so be it. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie with one whom you are pledged to give trust, fidelity and honesty is the antithesis of your vows. In every situation, there can be ways to deal with situations like CDing in many, if not most, cases. Living in dishonesty can only cause stress and a lack of intimacy (in the true definition of that word). I am convinced that it is far better to introduce the truth -- and be prepared to go slow for as long as it takes -- than to suffer the consequences of being outed by accidental discovery. True, every person's situation is different, but there are fundamentals that every marriage must contain.

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Originally Posted by Barbara4242

After Michelle's original post I, in part, said:



I would like to add one more thing in the context of what I originally said, the plight of "married with children CDs" notwithstanding. No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. If acting appropriately has consequences, so be it. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie with one whom you are pledged to give trust, fidelity and honesty is the antithesis of your vows. In every situation, there can be ways to deal with situations like CDing in many, if not most, cases. Living in dishonesty can only cause stress and a lack of intimacy (in the true definition of that word). I am convinced that it is far better to introduce the truth -- and be prepared to go slow for as long as it takes -- than to suffer the consequences of being outed by accidental discovery. True, every person's situation is different, but there are fundamentals that every marriage must contain.

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I do believe that the majority of CDs/TVs do not intend to hurt or betray their wives/partners even though that is exactly what it feels like to the wife/partner. The hurt is real, the intent is not, IMO. and the trust, once this point is realized and accepted, can be fully rebuilt and be even stronger in the long run.

Louise.

I will not be judgemental of other people because this is not a black and white issue except in an abstract perfect world.

The crossdresser has to weigh the stress of hiding his feminine self and the risk of discovery against the certain hurt and possible destruction of the relationship and family, i.e. kids. This is an individual choice and neither one is pretty, it is a choice of which is the lesser evil.

Our society stresses that one should place your partner and your children ahead of your own personal needs, in which case not revealing the crossdressing can often be the better choice especially if he believes his SO will definitely reject him.

And this all assumes the crossdresser understands what this is all about and what it means to him etc, and many are far from reaching that level of self understanding and acceptance.

I also know that many people do hide things all the time from their partners precisely to avoid hurt and disputes. It may not be right but it is human nature, Life would be impossible if we always told the whole truth, we would always be hurting others everytime we opened our mouths. Not revealing information is part and parcel of relationships.

Pre-internet era, there just was not the right information and support available for crossdressers and SOs to make sensible and reasonable assessments. This is changing so future generations will have an easier time and will hopefully always deal with crossdressing early on in the relationship.

As for Karen's myth quote, accepting GGs do exist but they are rare. Hopefully that will change for the better in time. Also there is no standard definition of what constitutes acceptance, what one person considers acceptance, another may view as a level of tolerance.

IMO if you accept something then you would not have any issues with it, you would not have up and down days, you would not have to constantly think about it or struggle with it, and you probably would not have any need to be in these forums in the first place. You would not have thoughts like "it could be worse, other men are violent, abusive, adulterous etc" as this denotes a negative view of crossdressing by comparing against bad behavior.:2c:

I agree you should tell the truth but if its going to hurt your SO and you lose the woman you love theres no need to tell. Not eveything in your life has to be told to your wife are anyone. Crossdressing isn't something in most ppls lives thats so important that you should tell the world.
We should all just go out and tell everybody we can that we dress as women, i sure there cool with it. As far whos side i'm on no ones. There is going to be things in a gg's life she will never tell you. Does she have to tell you no unless its really important she will. Take your resonsibilitys for who you are and stop worring about telling ppl you Cd. It gets old hearing this stuff.

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Originally Posted by michelleupnorth

If she was doing something behind your back wouldn’t you be upset?

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Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

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Originally Posted by noname

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

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Does the loving of someone unconditionally also mean, then, that we should put up with infidelity and anything else partners decide to throw at each other ???

If we reverse your statements, we would be saying "I truly love you so I will accept your crossdressing"........................therefore would we be saying "I truly love you so I will put up with your infidelity".

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Your one in a million, Di.... How about mythical... hehehe.... I don't know why I argue with a woman... I know I will always loose.... happends wevery time!!! So say there are 350 million people in US and Canada.... 50% male, 75% over 18, 5% crossdress, and 50% are married and you two are the only accelting GG's around...... That's 0.0000305% Rounding error... hehehe One in 3.25 million to be exact....

Karren

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I would not want you as my Statistician Karren (Sorry)

You neglected a lot of things in your calculations you assume every figure except one. The one which helps your argument. You also assumed this figure by assuming this is the only forum, and only the two GG's who responded to your comment are accepting.

Trust and Honesty are key to most relationships

That said fully understand the concerns of some who have said there were told there SO would walk away

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Originally Posted by JudeGG

Does the loving of someone unconditionally also mean, then, that we should put up with infidelity and anything else partners decide to throw at each other ???

If we reverse your statements, we would be saying "I truly love you so I will accept your crossdressing"........................therefore would we be saying "I truly love you so I will put up with your infidelity".

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What does Cd'ing have to do with infidelity? I've always been faithful to my wife. My wife could shave her head and go goth. I would never leave her for how she chooses to express herself. How does infidelity fit into this again?

Doesnt have anything to do with infidelity - but your statement of unconditional love implies that if we love somebody unconditionally - we (and Im talking both sides) would accept anything because we love our partners unconditionally.

You were trying to imply that we dont love our partners unconditionally just because we dont accept CDing

Noname -

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truly loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, "I will love you as long as you don't have affairs with twenty-seven different women" nor were we told "I will love you so long as you don't turn out to be gay", or "I will love you as long as you don't visit prostitutes" or "I will love you as long as you don't commit bigamy", or "I will love you as long as you don't gamble away all our life savings, lose our house and get your legs broken by loan sharks".

God, GG's are so unreasonable!

I'm not equating CDing with those obvious bad things, btw. But "I love you" can only ever be based on who she thinks - knows - "you" are. If you're keeping really big stuff from her (and what's no big deal to one person is really big stuff to someone else), you aren't who she thinks you are. Particularly as in many cases, CDing isn't just CDing. Some CDers are bisexual, others feel they're trapped in the wrong body. That's big stuff. That's not the same as sickness and in health, better and worse, richer and poorer.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie . . . is the antithesis of your vows.

.......But in the real world, for a majority of us.......... The truth will set you free of your wife, kids, family, job, life, money (lawyers probably love that)..... But we'll look pertty in our cute dresses.... Broke and in the unimployment line.... Hehe

And I really don't know why I belabor the point... Cause my situation is working for me and her...... Just irks me when people get on their high horse......But chastising us for not telling the truth has life changing consiquences....... for the chastizee's not the chastizer's... (Spell check please!! Hehe)!!

In my opinion...........


Love Karren

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

To the contrary, the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking.... The GGs that aproach totaly accepting are more like a high degree of tollerence... Ask anyone... Its different levels of tollerence not acceptence after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex!

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I have to disagree Karen. This is a wide and varied world. I cannot believe that there is not some dominant b***h out there who not only totally accepts but actually forces her SO to crossdress 24/7.

As for Kerry and I, Any intolerance that she does have is beyond where I want to go anyway. Her limitations mesh with mine quite well. She is as close to "totally accepting" as I could ask for.

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Originally Posted by noname

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

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Let me first say that I have been married for seven years now and found out about this three years into our marriage. I understand that this is who he is and what he needs to do. I am ok with that. I might not choose to participate all the time but that does not mean he cannot dress.

Ok now for my .02... You say that you expect unconditional love...we all deserve that imo...You are also saying (in a round about way) that if we (as gg's) don't embrace everything TG then we are not showing unconditional love.

Now let me ask you this...A person (gg or gm) grows to adulthood and is "hardwired" (meaning deep inside this is who they are and will always be) to feel attracted to a specific image, whether it is a fem female or a masculine man, then after years of being in the closet their spouse comes "out" to them. The spouse starts shaving things or growing things (beard, face, arms legs, boobs, ect), now is the one who is "hardwired" to be attracted to the specific image not showing unconditional love for their mate or is the mate not showing unconditional love by not taking the spouses "hardwiring" into consideration before changing their appearance and 99% of the time their very mannerisms... How is this considered "lying" when we could not make a decision as to how we feel about cding because we were not given the information beforehand? By definition to lie is
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
If we did not know about the cding, we can not know how we will react to it. If we did not know from the beginning why would we think "hmmm if my spouse decides to switch gender rolls will I still be attracted to him/her?"
Unconditional love is a two way street. With unconditional love comes trust, respect and honesty. You cannot have these things without the others. So when you slam us for not showing "unconditional love" think about the flip side...are you showing unconditional love for someone when you are constantly doing things that may go against the others "hardwiring"?

Angela

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Originally Posted by JoAnnDallas

Here is something to think about. many of us are boomers. This means we were born in the late 30's/ early 40's. Grew up in the 50/60's, and got married in the 70/80's. Long before the Internet and such. I bet most of us did not tell our wifes when we first got married mainly because we knew that they would not have married us. Also we were ashamed, because back then if you were a CD, you were SICK, PERVERTED, MENTALLY ILL, and no woman wanted a man like that. As such as time went on we kept it hidden. When the Internet came around and forums like this one came along, all of a sudden we discovered that we were not alone. Second society has changed enough that being a CD is no long a Mental Illness and people are more tolerant to us. I think the GAY Revolution had a lot to do with it. Even laws have changed. It used to be we could have been arrested for impersionating a female. In most cases it is no longer a crime and even law enforcment officers will treat us with respect. So here we are today, still in the closet and if we tell our wifes, we risk them leaving us because they precieve that we lied to them and so forth.
If I was just starting out today in life, yes I would tell my future bride all about me because today it's a lot easier and people are a lot more tolerant. Case in point, 3 CD friends of mine. All three are boomers like myself. All three have been married for decades. Then all of a sudden two decided to tell thier wifes they are a CD. The third the wife finds her out. Two are now devoiced and the third is getting a devoice. I look at as a catch 22, your damed if you told them at the beginning (1970-1980) and your damed if you tell them today (2000-2007). IMHO, don't be so hard on us boomers. It may be too late for us to come clean with out losing everything. It may be best to keep it in the closet. As for the younger generation since the internet, you have a better chance than we do. So tell them early on.

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Michelle, I have to say I agree with you when it involves new relationships. We know enough today that we cant fool ourselves by thinking it will go away if we settle down and get married. If we are a C/D we will always be a C/D. Knowing this it is wrong to lie or withhold from the person you are making a life long commitment to.

But I must agree with Joanne. The older C/D's who have been married forever are in a different position. They did not have the same information we do now and had a much tougher time of back then. Each of them must make their own desision. All the time knowing either answer could devistate their lives.

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Originally Posted by Lawren

I have to disagree Karen. This is a wide and varied world. I cannot believe that there is not some dominant b***h out there who not only totally accepts but actually forces her SO to crossdress 24/7.
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Somehow I've never equated forced femininization and accepting SO's... Lol. Thought old Abe abolished slavery in the 1860's.... Hehe

The accepting GG issue aside.....(Mental note..... Don't mention that ever ever again).....

If I wanted someone to berate me for not being a as good of a human being as they are because I lied....or didn't tell someone my secret..... I'd go on the Jerry Springer show...

I figure that's my burden to bare......

But I really do appreciate it that someone would take the time and effort to keep pointing that out to me..... again..... Hehe. Bet we could make a killing with a Liars Anaomous forum.... Small fee to join.. But then you would have to use your real name.. Else that would be.... You know... ......

:D

Love Karren

You're absolutely right Karr, no one can MAKE me wear a dress, I do it because I want to--I guess nobody gets that--too simple. Maybe we should go on Jerry's show (Jerry!Jerry!Jerry!:rolleyes: ) to "confess". You are correct though when you say it's our choice and our burden to bear if we tell our friends and family or not.:happy:

Hmm.. there may be a decent basis in biological reality for your 'hardwiring' argument.

But as the exact same argument could be made for a man being potentially 'hardwired' to be attracted to a thin woman then having problems when their wife gains weight... or being 'hardwired' to sleep with multiple partners to maximise the spread of their DNA amongst the population...

I always find it interesting when morality and ethics comes into conflict with biological reality. How can we punish criminals if we find a criminal gene? What about violence and the controvertial 'warrior' gene? How can we assume we have total free will after the discovery of the unconcious?

This is an interesting and dangerous argument. If accepted It could end up justifying the worst crimes comitted by humans. Genocide, war, lying, cheating and rape all have some degree of value when viewed from only a 'survival of the fittest' argument, they help ensure the success of a particular set of genes.

It is also true however that good arguments have been made recently for the evolution of altruism, morality and empathy from purely natural selection forces too. Altruism for example in a community helps the entire community prosper which helps propagate the species and family groups within that species therefore self-sacrifice has a genetic survival benefit.

This 'hardwired' idea is one that can only be determined by hard science, explore it by all means but be careful where it may lead. Just because something is natural doesn't automatically make it good or right. Personally I think that there is a balence between free will and deterministic biology and that we must use our will to be sure that we are as ethical as possible in our expression of these 'hardwired' traits.

If the CD is 'hardwired' to need to change there appearance by shaving and the SO is 'hardwired' to only be attracted to hairy men then we have equality. Doesn't bode well for the sex-life of the couple though. That's the trouble with this notion. Could one or the other be more 'hardwired'? Only science can answer that question.

It seems to me that if you're a crossdresser before you get married, it's a pretty cut and dry case: You should tell your SO before it gets anywhere serious.

The problem comes for those who become crossdressers after they are married.

As far as ethics are concerned, is it ethical to tell your wife that you are a crossdresser? Yes, it is. But what if she's not accepting? It still is.

Lets face it, this revelation may turn you into something your wife isn't attracted to. And that's fine, because I'm just going to go against popular opinion here, and suggest a divorce. If you're not happy and your wife isn't attracted to you, then why are you together?

Examining the alternative will give some clues as to my thought process. Lets say you never tell your wife. Now if you're able to go the rest of your life living like this, and you want to for whatever reason (kids, house, family) that's fine. However, as many of us know, denying your crossdressing leads to depression and irritability. Is it ethical to subject your wife to that when it could easily be changed? I do not feel like it is. Lets face it, it's not fun living with a depressed person. Sometimes these feelings lead to suicide. Anyone who has ever had a suicide in their family will know why this is an unethical decision.

A lot of people would argue the utilitarian value of divorce versus the sacrifice one must make for his family, but this is something that needs to be left up to the crossdresser. There really is no "right answer," just one that will cause less pain.

Things are a lot different than my parents' time. It's no longer about graduating high school or college, marrying and raising a family, and then working for 40 years before dying. A sort of second renaissance has come about, people spend a lot more time and energy on self-actualization these days than at any point in the past. People have the need to be what they are and to find their potential.

I agree with just about everything Karren says! :thumbsup:

I will say that if you are single and dating you should tell a GG in that case right away. No need for hiding things...but I fully understand about the Cds that are married and can't risk their marriage, job, family, etc. For those of us that are to one degee or the other transgendered I would imagine a lot of people out there have no idea the pull it has on us.

I feel bad for the girls in a marriage that got to sneak around but I understand what they are doing. Bad for the GG partner too...really its a mess. I hope the younger girls here read the forums and before they get married work out all the issues and don't hide being a Tgirl!!!!

We have a girl here in Atlanta, she dresses and comes out sometimes, but still dates GGs as a guy. She does not tell them and I gotta admit that gets on my nerves. She also plays with guys when she dresses and I get angry her poor little GG GFs have no idea about that. Nothing wrong with bi or gay relationships...but don't sneak back to some GG and act like you are Str8!

Anyway my two cents. Just lucky that I am single and I plan on staying that way for now so I can be a selfish little Tgirl and have fun. Plus I do take good care of my kids and gotta get them into college anyway, that will keep me busy for the next few years.

:thumbsup:
Well said TracyH

But if we temper our idealism with mercy we must remember that people are flawed and make mistakes. What of the crossdresser in denial? They may be well into a marriage before they have succeeded in gaining enough self acceptance or courage to be capable to disclose it to their SO.

Again ethically the situation is the same as with the person who only recently became a CD. The SO may be more likely to realise they can't change the CD if they have been doing it since they were 14 however the SO isn't as likely to be understanding about the lack of disclosure.

It is important to remember though that many people are not so idealistic. Just look at the ugly truth that the rise in genetic paternity testing has revealed about the amount of women who cheat.. the percentage of children who have discovered that their father is not the one they grew up with is truly staggering!

AWWW, the age old question, when to tell someone you have decided you love you are a freaking pervert? :eek: My Mate was being eaten alive with guilt of being so disrespectful after 11 yrs of marriage, (losing touch with each other by the hour), and told me 2 years ago.

Fortunately, we are "Split-Aparts", and I was humbled that someone loved me so much to risk it all, knowing how impossible it would be for her to not be with me, expecting me to run, not walk out the door.


And now we have worked our way to total peace and happiness, everyday, of who we are, and what we want.

It's simple, I'm Gypsysexual, and she's Katsexual.

That's all we need, anything else we can face together, and laugh about it later.

It's really a matter of making a choice, for us anyway.

[SIZE="3"]I'm in support of you 100 percent, wish I could have been honest to my gf from the start, but I was in denial to myself, I lost out too, for all the years I missed not accepting who I really am[/SIZE]

This subject really hits home. I am so very fortunate to have a GG that is not only accepting of my dressing but actually encourages me to be myself whenever i chose. I went through a couple week period recently where i didn't wear anything fem and she was wondering what was wrong. I woke up this morning and felt like wearing something silky and i am so very glad that she just feels like no matter what im wearing she loves me. She actually just asked me what i was typing and i told her about this subject and how lucky i feel to be able to be completely honest with her. Hope everyone out there can find that special person who truly appreciates them. Feeling blessed in Michigan