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I just wanted to say thank you Karren...... I think that it is wonderful that you see how hard this is for some female at birth women... and that you can put the shoe on the other foot. Sometimes, all I read here is that there is no way to put the shoe on the other foot for a CD - especially if they are in the middle of a pink fog attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
:hugs: Kris
The reality is that we'll never reach a conclusion because the group is too diverse and consequently their motivation for trans-behavior too varied. Theres been too much rhetoric thrown about with the intended purpose of suppressing the opposing viewpoint or eliciting an irrational response. It actually isn't possible to conduct a productive, rational debate on an internet forum.
Maybe if people worded threads in a rational way, instead of writing in such a way, it becomes insulting, then maybe, just maybe we could have a rational, productive debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Fitzgerald
I don't however agree, we (the GG's) have plenty of discussions in the GG forum, they are always rational, productive and worded in ways that we don't take offense too, the Transmen forum is always productive and interesting, maybe it's the majority of MTF's with the rational behaviour problem eh? and just ponder that before you go jumping down my throat....
Reread my posts, their quite rational from a debate standpoint. I always try to refrain from rhetoric such as 'whining', etc. I try to avoid logical fallacies and unscientific terms such as 'pink fog'. I also do my best to debate from a place of value neutrality.
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Originally Posted by Bridget Fitzgerald
Whenever I refer to Mother "F"err's, I just abbreviate them MF's. Wondered why U added a "T"?
RS
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Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
Your welcome, Kris... Sometimes I scare myself.. But God Love'em..... ... Don't ya just love a good fight? Hehe. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kris
Karren
[SIZE="4"]UN F'ING BELIEVABLE M[SIZE="2"]ale[SIZE="4"]T[SIZE="2"]o[SIZE="4"]F[SIZE="2"]emale[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
DUH! This just reinforces that most people are cattle..
Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! ! ! ! ! !
:lol2: sorry this comment just made me smile lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kris
Oh honey you have no idea.. this fight is starting to scare me. These people can vote.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
I'm afraid we are doomed.
:hugs: Kris
Oh My! Emotions seem to be running a bit high here.
It is NO harder for the woman in a relationship who finds her SO is a crossdresser than it is for the man who has had to hide it since birth. Different sides of the same coin. Inflexibility is bred into the situation when neither party seems to understand the others view point in a fair and objective way.
So, should you find it impossible to leave the angst out of your "talk" with your SO (or others in any situation), then it is incumbent upon you to re-evaluate the situation and approach the subject in a more contemplative, objective oriented, logical way.
The best result comes from everyone doing what is best for themselves and the group they are involved with. When emotions start running high, take a step back, re-group, re-evalutate, take a breath, think it through to a logical conclusion and begin again.
To fire off replies without thinking anything through is the best way to alienate people.
Like mom used to say (or was it Thumpers mom), if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Today's world is completely opposite, everyone has something to gripe about and if you don't agree with said gripe, you are branded and sent out as an outcast.
Tolerance of ideas, ideals, preferences, etc, should be something we ALL practice, not just preach. It is not the end of the world if someone disagrees with you. And more importantly, it is definately not worth getting angry over, no matter what. Obviously, you should defend yourself if you are attacked (and I mean legitimately, not via some narcissistic view of yourself).
If everyone could just relax, enjoy life and be more open minded, we would have a lot less conflict here and in the world abroad. It is ALL small stuff after all.
I do recognise that this is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
Just as I also recognise that it is hard for a homophobic person to discover their child is gay. Just like it is hard for a racist who has grown up in a racist family and a racist society to then accept their sister marrying an aboriginal man. I knew one racist who became suicidal when he discovered he had a jewish ancestor. These things were all hard. It was also hard for a fundamentalist christian I went to school with when they started teaching evolution in class. He was so distraught when he found out about the development of different strains of disease and vaccination and how that conflicted with what he had grown up believing. I found him crying in a dark corner of the library where I usually went to get some peace and consoled him as best I could, telling him he needn't give up his religion (or keep it if that was his choice) just because part of what he'd 'known' all his life didn't match the evidence of the real world.
Yes it is hard. It is hard but it is right. Shedding yourself of racism sexism and homophobia is right. Accepting gay family members is right. Accepting people of different race into your family is right and accepting crossdressing is right. Not easy. Definately not easy. Sure not everyone can do it. I met plenty of elderly folk who could never accept that other races were equal, that men and women were equal, that homosexuality isn't a physical disease or mental illness. Several of them have gone to the grave distraught with the directions society has taken and unable to reconsile themselves to it.
I'm not putting unaccepting GGs down by mentioning these other things that the majority of society has managed to handle.. I am calling for greater compassion for everyone. Who has not believed something that was wrong? Who has not held at least one bigoted opinion over their life?
Do CDs deserve acceptance? Unequivocally yes. Yes they do. Just as women in the workforce or the universities did. Just as black people in the same school as white people do. Gays do, Jews do, Gypsies do (and not many get it still!), Muslims do, Christians do, Atheists do, Nerds do.. everyone whose actions and nature are ethical deserves acceptance and respect. The more marginalised, the more oppressed they are the more they will crave it and the less they will get it.
To put the shoe on the other foot for CDs just search for a persons past bigotry.. we all have at least a bit somewhere, we pick it up unconciously. Some have fought it and won, some fought it and lost, some never fought it at all and harbour it still. For almost everyone it is a hard fought battle as the concious mind has to constantly overide the unconcious reflex until the unconcious learns the new reflex.
I'm reminded of both my father and also my best friend. Both are generally good people. Both are quite open-minded, accepting and decent. Both are in favour of equal rights for everyone, including gays. Yet both can't handle seeing open acts of homosexual romance. The holding hands or kissing that anyone else can do in public freaks them out, they don't appose it but they can't bear to see it. I understand it is hard for them but that isn't any reason for restricting gays from holding hands or kissing in public like straight people can is it? Instead they have to acclimatise themselves to the experience.. slowly but surely, if they can.
I agree 100% that acceptance is deserved. No question in my mind. But....and this is for the sake of discussion only....Does acceptance mean participation? I don't feel that I am homophobic. The man who helped raise me is Gay, and he would b-slap anyone who thought I was homophobic...he didn't raise me that way. But, does my acceptance of Gays and Lesbians mean that I have to have an intimate homosexual relationship? Maybe, I just don't swing that way. It in no way means that I don't accept them. I'm just not oriented that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
So, is it possible to accept a CD, while still feeling that one doesn't necessarily wish to participate? Can I say to my SO, "Yes, I know you dress. I will not stand in your way. I support your right to express yourself. I'm just not into it myself. So while you are dressed, I'm just going to go to a scrapbooking class."? Can acceptance only be defined by a willingness to share clothing, give makeup tips and/or share intimacy while our SO is dressed? [SIZE="1"](again...just a discussion point..don't attack me please :heehee:)[/SIZE]
I know that there are some CD's who have more acceptance than others here. There are some CD's who are grateful for the amount, however small, they receive. There are some CD's who are given the world and ask for more (I know, I know...human nature). Who is to say what defines acceptance?
Dee
Ethically. The answer is yes. Yes you can accept without participating so long as the non participation wasn't used to prevent the act (say by not allowing enough seperate time for the act). It is perfectly fine for you to choose to not be a part of the activity as it's your right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
Is it good in the long term for a relationship for people to keep such a big part of themselves seperate? Hmm.. I suppose it depends. Just because some people don't get any acceptance at all doesn't mean that someone who finds that this is a big part of their everyday self identity should be happy with dressing once every 3 months in total secrecy from a hidden stash for which nothing new shall ever be bought for (which is what my girlfriend considers a very charitable comjpromise on her part). For some people keeping different hobbies and social contacts have been a very positive thing for their relationship. But with hair removal and other matters that isn't necessarily going to be as easy for some couples as it might be for others.Quote:
I know that there are some CD's who have more acceptance than others here. There are some CD's who are grateful for the amount, however small, they receive. There are some CD's who are given the world and ask for more (I know, I know...human nature). Who is to say what defines acceptance?
Some CDs may feel an aching need to be seen by their partner, to be loved totally rather than just for their masculine role.
For them participation may be an important thing for them.. however that involves mutual consent and so, from the ethical rights perspective it is something that can be asked for but never demanded, never expected.
In any case it is hardly acceptance if the subject is a taboo. a don't ask don't tell policy. However that doesn't mean that participation is mandatory.
Absolutely. Just because you can be tolerant of an idea does not mean you have to be a part of that idea. This, in my opinion, is the essence of acceptance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
Example, I am not gay, but I wont stand in the way of someone who is. I wont put that person down or talk about his life style negatively. I can respect that individual as a person, but it doesn't mean I have to participate in his activities. Thats what makes democracy work. The freedom to choose and not be persecuted by that choice. Granted some people take that to the extreme which is why the law is around, but you get the idea.
There is no greater freedom than that of choice. You remove that from any individual and it destroys that individual.
I appreciate you saying this. It's not my personal choice of acceptance level, but I don't think we should negate that simple acceptance may be the only acceptance some CD's can get from their SO's.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I absolutely don't think it's a good idea to do this. I know that, the more Barb and I "do our own thing", the harder it becomes to find things that are "our thing". But, I also understand that this is the way some marriages are. Not for me, but it seems to work in some marriages.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Do you remember or ever see the episode of Mad About You, where Paul started sleeping on the couch because he was watching TV...and Jaime stayed in the bed and talked to her sister on the phone or read magazines? In the end, they decided that this was a bad idea. That marriage needed to be a shared experience and too much alone time wasn't healthy. Well, I agree with this philosophy.
When Barb came out to me, she misunderstood the acceptance I was offering and told me she was putting Barb back in the closet. My heart broke because that wasn't what I wanted. Not what she wanted. And it was only with me trying very very hard to communicate my acceptance that Barb heard my words. She was willing to give up dressing if I didn't want to participate. My acceptance wasn't enough, so I understand exactly what you are saying here. I can't get inside the mind of a CD to FEEL that need. But, I understand. And I appreciate that you agree that this involves mutual consent----freely given, not demandedQuote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Again, I agree with you. I think that in any marriage, lack of communication on any issue can only erode the fabric of the marriage. I feel real sorrow for the CD's who can't discuss this with their SO's. But, I also feel sorrow for the SO's. I feel sorrow for the fear and sadness that they must also be feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
What I take from this discussion is that we are both agreeing on the issue, just with a different perspective....if that makes sense. I think we both seek the same end result, we may just take slightly different paths to reach the destination.
Dee
(Zee, you posted while I was posting so I didn't catch your thought until after I hit enter. Thank you for your answer too. It was very well thought out. BTW...it's very hard for me to think of you as Zee, as a very good GG friend of mine is a Zee. Do you mind that everytime I see you post, I think of a Filipino woman who is around my size and has a biting and intelligent wit :) ?)
I totally agree with you Karren.
If the tables were turned on me (my SO goes ftm) then I am sure I would need to negotiate a truce! I would feel totally uncomfortable holding hands with my wife in public were she dressed like a male when I was as well, especially with the kids in tow!
How's that for a double standard! At least I admit it!
Any restrictions are obviously individual to your relationship but empathy for the SO is paramount here!
Hugs Jazzmine
This is the only bit of what you have said say that I don't completely get. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
We seem to agree on the same conclusions of ethics philosophy. We seem to agree on the practical relationship things too. We both are looking at the same thing from our own different personal experiences and also the experiences of others. Beyond that what is different about our paths?
:hugs:
It's those different personal experiences you mention that make our paths different. Our paths may run parallel to each other, but they are ultimately different. And I happen to think this is a good thing. It's our different personal experiences that shape what we bring to the discussion. We can agree 100% on everything but still be looking at it through different eyes. And it's by sharing these personal experiences that we can affect compassion and understanding for each other. Geez that sounded pretentious.....I hope you get what I am saying. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Dee
I get you and concur entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
It's the value that comes from diversity. :)
:hugs:
That's not pretentious. That is quite wise.Quote:
And it's by sharing these personal experiences that we can affect compassion and understanding for each other.
Thankyou.
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Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
Hi Dee
You know what I found interesting with your exchange with Batty was not that the two of you are in complete agreement but why you thought you might not be in agreement and so your need for these qualifications I quoted above.
You see everything you said makes perfect sense and I very much doubt if any of the thousands of CD members here would have the slightest problem with any of your comments. So I am interested in finding out why you must have thought otherwise. What were the building blocks that lead you to this conclusion?
Let me de-construct this for a moment.
All CDs go into the closet because they know their thoughts are taboo and socially unacceptable and if revealed would make them social outcasts. So all CDs expect that other people (including their SOs) when presented with crossdressing would:-
not accept feminine men and consider them perverted
not want to have a CD as a husband or friend
not want to be seen in public with a CD
not want to ever participate in CD events
not want to engage in sex with a CD
and so on.....
So if CDs expectations of other people is total rejection then CDs are actually very surprised and over the moon to find any level of acceptance whatsoever. Now given this, your apparent nervousness about discussing acceptance and participation would inflame CDs does not make sense to me considering CDs don't expect either.
So this is my take. CDs do wish for, pray for and fantasize that their SOs would be accepting and would want to participate. Naturally CDs will ask this from their SOs and keep all their fingers crossed that the answer is yes. Could it be that SOs are misinterpreting a request as a demand? Do SOs really think that CDs expect this of them rather than just CDs hoping for it? If so then this is a major source of miscommunication and an avoidable source of friction in relationships.
Does this make any sense?
This all makes perfect sense to me. The single reason that I qualified my comments with the disclaimer is that sometimes, people tend to let emotion override logic in discussions like this. I say people in the generic....not directed and anyone in particular here on the forum. There have been instances in the past where I thought my tone and intent were fairly clear. However, either due to misunderstanding, miscommunication, or just plain old "didn't read the whole post and jumped to unreasonable conclusions" my intent has been misconstrued. I wanted to be able to continue this discussion without fear that someone was going to make inaccurate assumptions about what I meant, and then turn this into an attack-fest. (edited to add...I wasn't worried about Batty attacking either..just CMA!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
As to the question of what SO's see as CD expectations regarding acceptance, it's unfortunate that at times....we really just don't seem to see eye to eye on this issue. I think it boils down to the old Venus vs Mars issues. Men and women just communicate differently. My case with Barb is an example of that. Me saying, "gee, I don't know if I can be into this. I don't know how I am going to feel. Let me get a chance to adjust. I won't stand in your way", was my way of letting her know that I accept her. I love her. Give me a chance to catch up to where you are and learn. I thought I was offering total acceptance, and asking for acceptance of my need for time in return. Barb (I asked her just now so that this would be her correct feelings), in turn heard me saying, "I won't stand in your way, but I don't want anything to do with your dressing". I find it amazing that two people who have been married for 15 years, sometimes still can't communicate. Don't you?
But, that's it in a nutshell. At times, there are posts here on the forum regarding GG's level of acceptance. Sometimes, we GG's, read that CD's are NOT happy with our level of acceptance, and we get upset. Sometimes, those posts can feel downright insulting. We don't feel (and I am taking the liberty of answering for GG's here...sorry) that anyone has the right to demand more acceptance than we may be willing or capable of giving . There are intensely personal reasons behind our levels of acceptance that anyone outside the relationship can't know. And truthfully, is no one elses business. It's hurtful to us sometimes to feel that what we have given, may not be enough for the CD. We may feel that any acceptance we give is underappreciated.
From the CD perspective (and I have discussed my words here with Barb for accuracy..however...still just my surmising), perhaps, CD's aren't really accusing and demanding so much as venting and emoting. A simple, "Why is my SO being so difficult about allowing me to dress in public?" may just be a cry from the heart. A reaching out to other CDs who are in a similar situation. Maybe, the poster sincerely wants to understand the why's. Perhaps the CD is intensely grateful to their own SO for the love and understanding that has been given, but in a moment of anger or weakness, they type something that boils our blood. The need and desire to vent is understandable. It may have nothing to do with your reality. It may just be a release of the understandable stresses CD's are under.
It's like this. Years ago, I read in a parenting book to REALLY LISTEN to what the child means, and that the words don't necessarily fit the meaning. If a child is being told to go to their room, they may say, "WHY!!!???? I don't WANT to". If that child is saying these words, and simultaneously moving toward their room, they ARE NOT being insolent. They are asking WHY!!! But, sometimes, in our emotional state: anger, frustration, hurt, etc. All we hear is the insolence. We increase the punishment, when it wasn't really necessary.
I think that we just aren't communicating well on this board. And this is not surprising. In the cyber world, we can't see facial expression. We can't hear inflection. We can't see the child, moving toward the bedroom.....we only hear the insolence.
A little acceptance, not of crossdressing, but of each other and our differences will go a long way toward constructive progress.
Dee
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Originally Posted by battybattybats
And this makes me CRAZY!! Women get to walk around pregnant...... and that is advertisement of what they have been doing...... and I hear people all the time, especially men say it's okay for women to kiss each other but men........... no freaking way.. Why? It is no different.
I too am not saying they are bad people, but I do not agree with them. I will also fight for the rights of each gay person that I know each time I am faced with this problem. It infuriates me.
JMHO.. I could be wrong,
Kris
WOW !! Surely one of the most eloquent and powerful posts I have ever read ! Bravo Batty !!! - Yes, It may be hard, but no matter how hard, acceptance is right. BOTH acceptance of a persons need to express themselves in the manner they choose AND acceptance of a persons right to not participate in activities which are a detriment to their personal peace and happiness - in essence - Live and let live !Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I think every woman has a right to be with a man... That's why I gave up on them.
Lisa,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly
What if the woman doesn't want a man, or wants a feminine one? By giving up on them, aren't you leaving yourself left out of happiness in your life?
This just sounds so sad. I had issues when I left my ex and had to spend time getting to know who I was before I attempted to get involved with anyone new..so I took 5 years. I got a lot of flack for doing it.. but I didn't give up - just took a break. There are good men out there, and there are good women.. maybe we just can't see them now?
:hugs: Kris