Don't Be One

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

PS
Flatlander almost all of the bullet points you are stating are based on stereotypes and internalized social fears.....or just reinforce them....

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No, I'm stating this is the world in which we find ourselves. It is what we have to work against. By no means are most of society's expectations correct or useful. Anyway, in part this is what makes it so difficult. We have all had a lifetime to absorb this B/S.

Also, our situation is considerably different from what women experienced. I don't think there ever was the kind of resistance that women in men's clothes experienced compared to what men in women's clothes have experienced.

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

But i do like the fact that knowing and seeing what other people perceive of LGBT community to be, but i just wonder how much of it is really just internalized by us.

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For some, these issues are deeply internalized. Others, not so much. Unfortunately it's the world that exists just outside our front doors.

I've got to say, the OP was like a dozen kittens in the house, and the thread is like taking those dozen kittens out for a walk! I won't even try to quote anything, I'll just line up a few of my reactions.

* "women who wear trousers are CDs" complaints: they're a lot worse than mere "whining." It goes beyond "iron my shirts"-style sexism. It's "there are wrinkles in my shirts and it's all the fault of Teh Wimmenz." A.k.a. misogyny. (And MRA-style misogyny.)

* Being seen. Speaking for myself, I wear skirts and jumpers (UK: pinafores?) almost everywhere other than to work. I don't go to any trouble to hide the fact that I'm male (which is anathema to some here at CD.com), so I think I'm doing my little bit to disprove the notion that "men don't wear skirts." I know that there are others here at CD.com who do the same.

However, "being seen" is a bit more complicated for the [male] CDers whose goal is to "pass" as a woman. There's a logical contradiction between passing and making CDing more visible -- to be visible as a CD, people have to be made aware that you're a CD, and then you're not passing any more.

* The "fit" of "women's clothes": I gave up buying ready-made clothes from the women's departments a long time ago (the only exception is tights and other underwear.) No matter what size they are, they don't fit me, and even if I could find ones to fit, the designs just look wrong on me. So I've ended up making all my own skirts, jumpers, and now I'm working on dresses.

It's given me a new appreciation for what women, especially women who don't have the ANSI standard "female" shape, go through when shopping for clothes. I counted something like 15 independent measurements you'd need to make a dress fit properly, but women's clothing has only a single scale. I don't know if this is "the" reason why so many women prefer sweats (or yoga pants) to tailored dresses, but it would be a good one.

The usual men's clothes don't have the same problem, or at least not to the same extent, because men's clothes are usually looser. Even so, if you go to a place like Brooke's Brothers and get a suit, they spend a half-hour measuring you (reminds me of Harry Potter in the wand shop :) ) and a day or two altering it to fit.

* Admiring women: I frequently see comments by M2F CDers about how they admire, value, etc., "women." Maybe it's just me being a grouch (again!), but this always grates. There are something like 1.5 billion women out there, and they're all individuals. There's no way that they can all be admirable, regardless of what standard you use -- unless the only standard is whether they are female or not. To talk about admiring, etc., "women" without any further qualification is, when you come down to it, to ignore who these 1.5 billion people actually are, as people, and reduce them to a single characteristic: their sex.

* Whether women care how men dress: I've cerainly heard women say they'd prefer if the men in their lives paid more attention to how they look. But I've also heard men call men emmasculated (I won't use the actual word) if they do much of anything to please their SOs. There's a strain in male culture of deliberately not dressing to please women in order to prove one's masculinity.

I wear woman's clothes because I want to and for me it relieves stress. When I am dressed as a woman I feel comfortable and it feels right.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

Now, I will admit that my SO and I have been paranoid at times going out..,worried about violence. Well, really, I'm the worried one...but, my SO was able to actually consider that people might be violent over such things...I think being raised male gives a bit of an "it wouldn't happen to me" mindset at times. It seems like me and my friends are perpetually on "rape alert"...as if every male on the street is just one flip out away from raping and pillaging. (It's actually really sad that we're taught this, but I actually have been pretty thankful of it in the past). But, the point is that we were also scared...we still are...but, we put ourselves out there. And, with doing that, we have had nothing but positive experiences...any negative experience that we have had remotely related to CDing has been from within ourselves...our community has been nothing but supportive. And, if we can get this in the middle of Alabama, I think it can be accomplished almost anywhere.

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This is one very good point, one that virtually all men never even consider. You're not free to go out whenever and wherever you want without being constantly on the lookout for the creepy guy who just might be one step away from attacking you. And it's a big deal, really; it's a major difference in how men and women have to live. I mean, even here in the U.S., or other western so called civilized countries it goes on, and there are so many guys out there that really believe that any attractive woman is fair game 'because she was asking for it' by dressing so attractively. Yet, no guy would ever say that a man was just asking to be mugged because he was wearing an expensive suit.

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

How about this jacket! This style is fitted and looks incredibly like the Ladies cut leather jackets from the 80's
Attachment 198541

How about these jeans....I love them!
Attachment 198543

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Donni, thanks for reminding me about some great brands out there. I just wish the clothes were cheaper.

Interesting thread, Shanninigans!

One of the fears of straight men crossdressing is that people will think they are not 'real men' (whatever that means). Having a very attractive female SO who clearly enjoys his dressing has to make it easier on your SO, Shananigans. Thanks for supporting us!

Deedee

I am going on a limb because I am way to lazy to have read every post in this thread. Men's fashion does have its ebbs and flows just like women's clothing. It usually comes in the more formal and less casual areas, suits and blazers often change with the culture. right now the lapels on suits are being cut much thinner and more "dainty" and the pants are being fitted much slimmer for instance. The patterns and prints of men's fashion are less diverse then their females counterparts though. The differences are usually much more subtle.

To me crossdressing is a state of mind, not clothing. I can wear woman's jeans and flats and feel feminine but I can not wear men's jeans and sneakers and feel the same. I think that it would be similar for woman, just because a woman wears a pair of woman's jeans does not make them a crossdresser, to me it means that they are wearing what they want to that day. The same woman can go home and put on a cocktail dress and heels and be the same person. If I wear jeans and a tee shirt one morning to go to the store and then come home and put on a dress and heels, my persona changes to a more female one. not so with the woman I mentioned, although her personality might change a bit, the persona remains the same.

Sorry again if this has been discussed, but like I said I am too lazy...Megan