Out

I had a reasonably good session with my therapist today, dressed as Paula. I think I was a little scattered and all over the place, but I felt good.

I'm not feeling so good tonight now that my wife is back home. She's really depressed. She said "eat dinner without me, I'm going to go bury my head under the covers." I asked "Is there anything I can do or say, hon?" She said "Don't feel what you are feeling anymore," and went upstairs.

She's not sleeping well.

Tomorrow night will be interesting. We have a regular dinner with friends. I wonder if I should go?

I thought maybe her change of attitude on Friday was maybe a little too much, too soon. We'll see, I suppose.

Paula give her some time. She has a lot to think about. Let her bring it up. I know it is hard but pushing the issue is not good.

You are right Stevie. I am terrible about leaving things alone that need to be left alone for a while. It's only been a little over a week.

We had a long talk tonight. She's worried that her life, which is about perfect right now, is going to change. She's worried that I'm going to change. She hates the idea of even small changes in me. If I stop functioning as a male (she's convinced this will happen) we're pretty much done as a married couple.

I told her that if she couldn't abide me changing and couldn't stand the sight of me, I was prepared to leave and give her basically everything, and do what I could to keep her in her present life. That I loved her enough that if this process, wherever it goes, is like watching me die from cancer, I'd rather she not have to go through that, and find a way to be happy - that I don't want her to suffer like that. She pointed out that she suffers anyway, no matter what, which I know is true. She doesn't really want to throw 20 good years away though. She does care about me. She discussed having me move downstairs, staying married, and just having a platonic relationship. (She'd need to find another lover, and doesn't like that prospect much.) Of course, I have no idea if any of this will happen or not. Who knows if I'm even TS? I sure don't.

I wish I could help or even give advice but I am the last one who would know what to do. My divorce was finalized in court last Monday. My second one. I don't think relationships is my strong point. Keep your head up though, sometimes things seem the worst and in the long run it is not as it seems. Sounds like you are doing what your heart feels like the right thing. Being as unselfish as this will at least keep your conscience clean.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I trust her friend. She's a civil and gay rights activist. Her own family won't speak to her - hasn't spoken to her in years because she's married to a woman. I think she'll help.

I really don't care what happens to me here. I'm more worried about my wife. I wish I hadn't done this to her.

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So one of the conditions when I came out to my wife was not to expect her to burden my secret alone. I had to give her a green light to speak with a friend in confidence. This help with the dialogue towards acceptance and tolerance. Over time i was surprised at how many she shared with. She used great discretion in who she told as they were people I could have outed myself to.

I spent part of the night on the couch. She came and got me at 5AM. I lied and told her I laid down because I wasn't feeling well.

I'm pretty furious with her. I think that it drives her nuts that this isn't about her. She complained last night that I seem to enjoy sex more now - she actually complained about that. She's quite worried about what I'm going through, and how it will impact her sex life. She's never spent much time worrying about mine, I can tell you that. I was sitting there thinking "wow, I pray for death lots of nights, and you are mostly worried about sex. OK." Her perfect little life is going to be upset, possibly, and this is just intolerable. (I'm thinking "wow, like my life isn't going to be disrupted?")

Our relationship works as long as I'm the one doing the giving. I give and give and give and give. This time I need help - so we're in trouble.

I am on my own here.

Sounds, Paula, like a bad day.
I'm thinking right now she has no idea what to think, and is probably wondering what she did wrong to make this happen (only a guess)
You are never alone - I know that now :)
Hang in there..

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Originally Posted by TeresaCD

I'm thinking right now she has no idea what to think, and is probably wondering what she did wrong to make this happen (only a guess)

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She's told me exactly what she's thinking:
1. I'm going to transition. She's sure of this. (I'm glad one of us is!)
2. This will disrupt her home life - we'll sell our home and split up. Where will the grandkids play? The grandkids! (Note: we have no grandchildren at this time, nor any on the way.)
3. This will really affect her sex life.
4. She will have to get a fulltime JOB! A JOB!

I think she also feels bad that I'm not happier. I am also fairly sure she doesn't understand the extent to which I am an unhappy person. I think she's vaguely offended that she isn't making me feel great about myself. (With all I do for her, how could I not feel great?)

I'd thought, when I told her this, that she'd feel grief about the man she loved, as if I were dying or something. Or horror that I'm so screwed up. Or something about me - at least a little bit. I felt a lot of guilt over this.

No, I think it's just about losing the stuff we have, and disrupting her perfect little life. That's it. :( (BTW, I knew this stuff would bother her, and it should - I just didn't think it would be the MAIN thing that bothered her.)

It really is just that shallow, and just that selfish. I feel completely disposable, just a piece of trash, human garbage to her.

I'm glad she agrees we need some couple's counseling. You know what though? At this point, I'm not even sure I want to resolve this anymore. I have done a LOT for her and her family. A LOT. So I have the worst problem of my life - and it's just too much for her to even consider helping me? (I could use a tiny bit of sympathy.) The stuff and her life here is more important than I am? The house is more important than I am? Her sex life is more important than I am?

Yeah, apparently so. At least that's what she's telling me.

Sorry, I'm just really angry today!

I hate to say this but your description of your wife sounds a lot like my ex.
We divorced for different reasons but when I looked back on our marriage latter I realized that she only thought of herself. All the affection she showed for me was a sort of act. Doing what she thought she should do as a wife.
My sons and daughter could not believe I didn’t see what was going on at the time.
And that’s how it is sometimes in a marriage that’s not working.

There are a lot of comments on this forum about saving a marriage at all costs and little about getting out of it while you still have your sanity!

Sometimes divorce is the best thing you can do. It was for me. It just might be for you too Paula.
But only you can answer that.

All the best,

Suzy

In truth this is how my last marriage was, A little different though. She really did nothing for me at all. At first I tended to her every need, I would wake her up with massages and coffee in bed, I did all the housework, cooking, cleaning, laundry. After a while I noticed she did nothing for me and even ignored me completely at most times. She wanted to stay up all night but had to get to work at 5:00 in the morning so she would come home from work, eat and go to bed, and about the time I went to bed in the evening she would get up. We didn't sleep together for years because of this and she could never understand why it was a problem. She refused any physical contact, no kissing, no hand holding, no cuddling, sex became a job of what I had to do for her and then it was ok if I wanted to enjoy too but not if she had to do anything. Eventually she told me she didn't care if we ever had sex again, and actually lived up to that. She would spend hours talking on the phone to her sister but didn't have time to talk to me for 10 minutes. If we were watching tv she would sometimes get tired of the show - one she picked out - and just turn off the tv and walk away with me sitting there wondering if I was invisible. Hey wasn't I watching tv too? And she was surprised when she told me she wanted to move out that I said ok and helped her move. She actually thought I would beg her to stay and is still shocked I let it go as far as a divorce. She told me she will never understand how I could just "turn it off".

She also was surprised I didn't like the idea of her moving to the guest room and us living kind of like roomates, of course with me paying all the bills, her car insurance, all the groceries, all living expenses and her just paying her car payment, student loan and her beauty shop and nails costs. Oh yes a birthday gift for every one in her office all year but never more than a card for me for 8 years.

I hope your situation is not the same and it is just fear and stress driving both of you. I tried for four years to get my ex to notice me, and it just wasn't to be. When I just gave up and stopped trying and basically treated her the same way she was treating me, she decided it was not working.

I personally do not believe in divorce. But sounds like she is telling you that everything you two did to get to this point was end the end result she envisioned. Was she there for you when you were dealing with other problems? If so I can see what she is saying then. is she so deeply hurt that she is having a hard time telling you how she feels. It seems that she has a sense that you want to transition. Is this something you want to be or can you come to a compromise with her. I wish I had an answer that would help, even though we are all here dealing with similar issues we are all unique in our own world. My wife isn't accepting and I have put several strains on our marriage. I have to prove to her that I love her and is committed to our family. She has put up with me dressing and at the same time reminded me how she feels which is not positive. I know I have feminine feelings but also know I'm a guy and like to do manly things. This is what my wife wants to see. What does your wife want to see in you to make this work.

There is a saying: "When you're up to your a++ in alligators, it's hard to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swap.".

Humans often have difficulty in dealing with change. We like stability and LACK of change. I can see how one partner might not react well to the news that potentially could turn a presumably stable situation into chaos. The reality may be that the chances of any major change are fairly small, but we often hear how we THINK things are and not the way they really are. Simply put, it's driven by our fears.

I didn't check the chronology, so I don't know how long things have been going one. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a while for the churning to die down and substantive talking can take place.

Paula, I think you're both being self-centered, and that's a good thing. This is important sh*t! It will affect the rest of your lives together or apart. It's healthy to mentally explore splitting up, to be angry at her, for her to be angry at you, for her to mentally explore splitting up...

"Churning" is a great word. Churn away! But don't do anything permanent until you both settle down. Eventually the question might return to "how are we going to handle this?".

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Originally Posted by Mich Salem

Paula, I think you're both being self-centered, and that's a good thing.

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

I can see how one partner might not react well to the news that potentially could turn a presumably stable situation into chaos. The reality may be that the chances of any major change are fairly small, but we often hear how we THINK things are and not the way they really are. Simply put, it's driven by our fears.

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Yeah, these both describe what is going on fairly well I think.

So some updates - I should start by saying that after two weeks of my wife being angry, freezing me out, and arguing with me, I got angry myself, so some of the remarks I made about her earlier are overly harsh. Yeah, she has a strong sense of entitlement, and yeah, that was angering me something fierce. But we really do love one another, and we like each other as well. We are really good friends.

Today was really a rollercoaster ride. The day didn't start out so well. We spent the evening last night at a local car show. This was fun. She was wondering, though, if she'd even want to spend the next one with me in a month, much less our anniversary together in July. She was that uncertain she wanted to be with me anymore. She just didn't think she could do this - that I would change more than she could handle. (She doesn't want any changes in me, and no doubt, I'm changing. She doesn't want ANYTHING to change.)

So I pointed out that splitting up was going to be a pretty big change. And then I talked to her about how I really feel about myself. I hate myself. I've always hated myself. I hate my body. I pray for death quite frequently, and I've thought about death quite a bit over the past couple of months. So she talked about how much it would hurt her and our kids if I killed myself - and I told her I knew that, and had been forthcoming with my therapist and physician about these thoughts, and that I thought I was over the crisis. I did tell her that I felt like god hated me - that I was, and always had been, the butt of some cruel cosmic joke. So she told me many things about me that she thought were positive, and I think she's genuinely shocked and saddened about how I feel.

It's hard to stay mad at someone who does something like that. So I talked about why I was mad - at least one reason. I didn't give her an ultimatum, I told her "hey hon, I'm having serious problems here - you need to know. Do with that information what you will." We argued a little more about that - she pointed out she could've just thrown me out when I told her, and I said "yes, I appreciate that, but I am a little hurt you felt like I gave you an ultimatum. I've told you how bad a shape I was in emotionally - there was no way in good conscience that I couldn't tell you." So we settled that.

We talked about going to town today. We'd planned a week ago to go, and get pedicures together, and measure me for women's shoes. So I asked "what is the purpose of going? I mean, you hate this and don't want to deal with it - you tell me you can't accept this, or are you feeling more accepting?" So she tells me "No, but don't read anything more into this than what it is. I can handle seeing you with nail polish, and I think it will help you. If we know your shoe size, you'll have an easier time shopping online for shoes. I don't have to see them, but I'll have helped."

So despite spending a couple of hours in a fairly heated discussion, we went to town. We stopped for breakfast, we listened to music we both liked in the car, it was a beautiful day, and we both chatted and enjoyed each other's company. Surprising really, for how the day started. We measured my feet (I'm size 12 / 12W), and we bought her a couple of pairs of shoes at the department store. (She got some really pretty platforms.) Sadly, nothing in size 12 there.

We bought some scented lotions and moisturizers for the both of us next. Then we went to the nail salon in the mall and got pedicures together. I chose the same polish as her. She was nervous about me getting a color at all, and when the woman next to her looked at me, my wife chimed in "he lost a bet, and is being a good sport." So I played along with that. I think this was hard for her. But we did it. It was a lot of fun really - I've never had a pedicure before.

We looked for some clothes for her, didn't find anything. We hit another couple of shoe stores, and the only 12's I could find were some sorta cute flip flops. She scored another cute pair of shoes for herself. (I'm hoping she'll see the advantages of shopping with me.)

At one point during the day, she admitted she really didn't want to think about being with anybody else but me. We have a lot of history, and most of it is really good. And we are friends. I told her "promise me, no matter what happens, we'll stay friends - you are my best friend."

After all that we went to a nice restaurant, and had a really wonderful dinner together. It was a really nice day. She did tell me at one point that she was thinking about things like shoes abstractly, without seeing me in them. On the other hand, once we got home, she asked to see me in the flip flops.

So despite a lot of really heavy discussions, and anger all weekend, today ended up as a really good day. I know this is still hard for her, and I don't really see it not becoming hard. But I know she understands how desperate of a shape I'm in emotionally. She wants me to be whole and happy, regardless of what happens to us. She wants to help me how she can - although she has lots of limits.

I talked with her a lot more today about my feelings. She's still stunned that she had absolutely no clue about what I was going through. I was a little rocky emotionally, and that's all she knew. It was nice to be able to talk to someone.

So I still don't know how this will turn out, we've gone from wanting to split up to not wanting to be apart and to grow old together in the span of a few hours today. I guess, though, you never know how a relationship will turn out, so why should this be any different.

So we'll keep trying. I'll try not to drive her nuts with what I'm going through. We'll both get counseling, and we'll likely do some couple's counseling. Maybe this will be too hard for her and we won't make it. Maybe I'll change too much. Maybe she'll grow a little more accepting and we'll meet somewhere in the middle. Time will tell, I guess.

We'll keep churning away for now.

Hey Paula, really glad you got to be straight up with her, and that the day ended up well :)

What a rollercoaster ride. For both of you.

Good to hear that she's talking to you.

The journey of a 1000 miles begins with the first step...

Wow I really missed a lot on your progress, I'm sorry. Well that's good that you guys are talking and the fact that your arguing about it also means a lot as she coulda just left or kicked you out. I hope things go well for you!

We talked some more tonight, after she got home from therapy. It's interesting to talk now - I told her that I'm not going to hide anything from her, but I also am in kind of a funny position because she doesn't want me to tell her more than she can handle. I think of it as "controlled truth." For example, she told me that her therapist was at the same facility, leading a youth TG group, that I was at last night. I told her that the next time I go, I'll try to meet him. She told me that she didn't have a picture of me on her phone to show him. Here's where the controlled truth comes in - I DID NOT SAY: "That's OK hon, I crossdressed for that meeting, the picture on your phone wouldn't have helped..." :lol:

She told me she screamed in frustration and anguish for a minute or two after we got off the phone last night after my first TG support group meeting. I told her it was useful, and it was nice to meet some others who have the same issues as me. She had hoped that I wouldn't find it useful, and tell her "wow, those people are CRAZY - I am sooo not one of them." Alas, that is not the case - I am transgendered. I told her that I secretly had hoped the same thing. (Which is true, I did hope that - until the other girls started talking, and I realized I was *exactly* like them.)

She said her therapist insists that I'm the same person - that being transgendered just happens to some people, but that while their bodies may change, they are the same person. My wife feels like physical changes are very tangible changes, that they change her attraction to me, and that I'm changing as a person. It's weird for her, I know - because we'll have days like sunday where we finish each other's sentences, and laugh about old memories, and just generally have a wonderful time being together. And then she'll think about me with breasts or something - and it's VERY different. I can appreciate what she's going through - I feel like I've been falling down the rabbit hole for about three months now.

She doesn't feel like she has any good options. She's sad being with me. She's afraid the relationship won't survive, that she won't want a physical relationship with me. But she doesn't want to be alone either, and doesn't want to lose me. I told her that I feel much the same way - that I love her, and that I don't want to lose her. She's afraid that she'll hold me back, keep me from becoming a whole, well person, in an attempt to save the marriage. I told her no, that I would tell her what I needed to do, as honestly as I could. That I'd try to pace things to give her time to catch up, but that if we reached a point where she simply could not bear what was happening, we'd deal with it. It would be hard, but there would be no blame. We can each only bear so much. If this goes beyond her measure - well, it just does.

I told her that she was actually responding better than I'd expected or hoped, and that I felt like we had a decent chance to get through this, if we kept talking and just took things one day at a time. I told her that I knew how much she cared, how hard this was for her, and just how hard she is trying to deal with this, and to help me. I told her that I appreciate it with every fiber of my being, and that if it just can't work between us - if I change too much, there would be no blame from me, because I know she's doing all she can.

What more could I ask of someone?

Hugs

Hooping for both your sakes it improves

Thanks Molly, me too. But you know what? I hope my last post didn't sound too sad. I'm really not so sad or worried. What will happen, will happen. My marriage is worth saving, but it isn't worth my life or my sanity. (Nothing is worth either of those two things.) I'll fight for my marriage, and I believe now my wife will too. Maybe that will be enough, maybe it won't. But it really is the best anyone can do.

I think the main thing I can do is to try to make sure the time we have together is as good as possible. Who knows how much we have left? But then, how is that different from ANYTHING in this life? Maybe the bad will overwhelm whatever good I can do - but maybe not, and maybe that will be the key?

Good for you. I am proud of you.

Paula dear, my heart goes out to you and your wife. I want you both to be happy. :hugs:

- Amy