"Im so tired of needing to always be a man"

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Why do you feel the struggle of a CDer is so different? I don't. I can't imagine what part about my secretly dressing up, being terrified someone would discover me would be much different from the experience of many closet CDs here. Nor are the consequences all that different for them - most of their wives will be terrified that they'll transition - if they are even able to accept it on that level. (Read almost any thread in "loved ones".)

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

If I am honest and compassionate, I can't tell you which of us has it worse, overall.

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Both TS and CDers have lots of challenges. Some challenges are common to both, and each one has challenges that are different from the other, but we both have lots of hardships we face. Here are some of the challenges of being a CD.

1. Finding time to cross-dress, where you won't have to interact with the world
2. Work - unless you work from home, you can't CD at work. And if you're lucky to work from home, that will likely change and you will be forced to commute to an office and sit through rush hour traffic.
3. Wife and kids - most wives aren't accepting of CDers, and many fear the CD will eventually transition, even though that is highly unlikely, but you don't know who is gonna transition and who is not. You may have to sneak dressing time when no one is present. That can be very tricky to pull off without getting caught, and to even find time alone when you're married and have kids.
4. Family - parents, siblings, cousins - even if you're single or have an accepting SO, chances are your parents or siblings won't accept you and you're still struggling to keep it a secret from them. Try living near by and having to visit them in drab, be in drab if they visit you, give up a day of CDing to tend to family obligations, have a family member inadvertently discover your secret stash of clothes. And heaven help you if you live with family. Good luck finding time to CD.
5. If you're an out CD, you face all the risks a TS woman would face when out en femme. The only difference is you can revert to drab mode and cis-male privilege.
6. Fear of being caught by family, friends, SO, kids, work, neighbors.
7. Getting irritated if you have to go a long stretch without CDing. And what constitutes a long stretch? 1 month? 2 weeks? 1 week? 3 days? And if god forbid you're forced to go 2 or more years without CDing. Lucky you don't end up in the loony bin.
8. If you come out to others, they may think you're crazy, messed up in the head, insane, gender confused, a sinner, going to hell, and people may be afraid to hang around you because they'd be guilty by association. People may literally treat you as if you're on drugs. People might even think of you as a drug addict.
9. Finding women's clothes that fit a plus-size male body.
10. Shopping for women's clothes in drab, getting mistreated by an SA, or being caught shopping by someone you know. I've never had trouble with an SA in L.A., but I certainly fear getting caught by someone I know. And I have had trouble with SAs in less tolerant places like Virginia.
11. It's very expensive to maintain two wardrobes.
12. Double duty laundry.
13. Hassles of hair removal or beard covering. Some CDers have such stubborn beard growth that waxing or electro or laser is a must. Even those of us with average or below average beard growth, some of us opt for painful and expensive waxing, electro, and laser.
14. Self-acceptance. CDs and TSs both struggle with accepting who we are. This can be the hardest part of all, accepting being a cross-dresser.
15. Although unlikely, what if you really are TS and do need to transition?
16. What if you really do hate being a man?
17. Loneliness.

Edit: People actually think cross-dressing is selfish. :Angry3:

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I find your attitude, quite frankly, smacks of prejudice - you want to exclude them from your happy little TS camp. Yeah, most of the girls on the CD forum will never transition. You know what that makes them, in my opinion? Lucky.

I've talked to many, many CDs here on this forum. And the inescapable conclusion I have is that their experience differs from mine largely in terms of degree.

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I find your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills frustrating. For whatever reason you keep imagining evil where none exist. There is no "Happy little TS camp" to exclude anyone from and yeah I agree people who do not suffer from gender dysphoria to the point of needing to transition are quite lucky indeed. My point made, thank you.

Paula those degrees matter, do black people and white people share many common human problems?, yes they do. Does that mean I know **** all what its like to be black?, no it does not. You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

Paula those degrees matter, do black people and white people share many common human problems?, yes they do. Does that mean I know **** all what its like to be black?, no it does not. You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

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If you would actually talk to others, and try to understand their problems, perhaps you would no longer use your ignorance of their concerns as a justification for feeling the need to exclude them. Do you talk with many black people or CDs either one?

I've spoken with many on the CD forum who appear to have significant gender issues, some who need professional help in my opinion. All of them found the TS forum to be hostile, unsupportive, and unwelcoming, largely because of exclusionary attitudes like yours. They were "just CDs", so they didn't belong on the TS forum, their issues were nothing like those of the TS girls, who did them a "favor" by convincing them their feelings of GD were just a runaway case of fantasy.

I found this plausible, because it was my experience too.

We on the TS forum, not all, but many chase away people who need our help.

As for what CDers are challenged by and what TS girls are challenged by, Obviously there is things that we both have in common. Both are people who are born of a certain gender and have desires to look like act like and or be like the opposite gender. Where the road Y's off..... I am not going to say I think one has it harder than the other. It would all be perspective IMO. My perspective would be that in a way, it must be difficult for TS girls in that they are born of a gender that they simply do not match emotionally, at all. That must be very difficult to deal with, either by living through it, or through the process of transitioning. Even then, there will usually be plenty of people who know that what a person is now gender wise, they were once the opposite. They will still be "different" Although they will be able to live a life that is more suited to them.

However, in a sense, their struggle, however difficult may in some ways be more simple. Simple in that they are mentally different than what they were born as. And, as they go through life and deal with transitioning or just living more as the opposite sex they were born as, more people will take on an understanding that they are just not suited to the gender they were born as. Certainly there will still be many detractors, and those which will bring negativity or worse. But many who will accept this person as the gender which they are aligned with mentally.

As CDers go, while they still match their birth gender at least part of the time, their challenges may be more complex. Internally there may be more confusion. What am I? A TS knows. CDers it is a far grayer area for many. Many people in society and in a CDers inner circle may have a harder time dealing with a CDer. They are often married and are mostly the gender they were born as but.... and that is really it, but. It is easier for people in general to understand a person who is TS than a CDer who shares both feminine and masculine characteristics or desires. Men who dress as women, but don't really want to be women, and are still attracted to women. As the list above done by Michelle, which was well put together shows, there are many difficulties a CDer faces that TS girls who are out and living more as they are aligned do not.

I suppose in the end, being TS and not yet out, or having started any transition must be more difficult. They share the challenges of a CDer and face that challenge 24/7. A CDer can at any time for the most part be part of the normal crowd. Maybe a part time member of that crowd, but a member nonetheless. CDers can still live comfortably with their birth gender and associate themselves as their birth gender. So, who's to say what really is more difficult? Both do have the common bond of crossgender issues and that ultimately should be something that does not work against each other simply because of how far on the TG scale they fall.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

As for what CDers are challenged by and what TS girls are challenged by, Obviously there is things that we both have in common. Both are people who are born of a certain gender and have desires to look like act like and or be like the opposite gender.

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I'm sorry, but that statement is simply not true.

A Transexual woman is a person whose gender is female. They are women. Their transsexuality occurred in utero by a birth defect that changed their physical sex to male. That is very different from a male gendered person who has feminine feelings they want to express.

Before this thread gets locked as it appears to be getting off track. I read that statement "I am tired of needing to be a man" quite frequently as a justification to xdress. I have no doubts it helps to relieve stress as I used it as a coping mechanism for many years. I am in agreement with Melissa and April that it is important to be authentic. Incorporating your emotions and mannerisms into your everyday life would go a long way to relieving the distress of not being able to express yourself. I understand many have hidden their proclivity to crossdress from their partners and that is unfortunate. I believe when ever we start getting serious we should disclose to our prospective future mates so they may make the decision to stay or leave.

It took a fall off a roof followed six months later by a sigmoid colon resection to stare at my mortality for the first time in my life. I choose at that time to live my life as I wanted and not what others expected. I started wearing eyeliner, colored nail polish, pierced both ears and wore woman's tee shirts, jeans and shoes in various combinations. My wife was certainly not thrilled , but she was used to me crossdressing as I told her on our third date I had a need to wear woman's clothes.(That was 34 years ago).
it took some time but they eventually got used to the idea especially when they saw most people really didn't care. I didn't want to people to see my femininity at that time so I cut my below shoulder hair short. I was accepted by all I came in contact with. I owned what I was doing and when I was asked I would reply, this is what makes me feel good. But I was authentic and felt that way.
3 years later the inner war I was waging came to a head and I realized I needed to transition. I am full time. My name has been legally changed and I socialize, work and play as a woman. I have not had facial surgery or body modifications other than those resulting from 18 months of hormone therapy. I get gendered both female and male as I am in that awkward beginning stage. I am accepted and get the respect I expect because I own what I am doing. I am not afraid to act emotionally or mannerisms how I am feeling at that time.

I work in a very male dominated industry and I have yet to get dissed for dressing or acting as a female might. I am authentic to the degree I feel I should. I am certainly not male, but I am no princess either. I do the brakes on my company or personal vehicles as needed. I can use a portable chop saw to slice through crap filled rotted cast iron pipe if necessary.

The point is to be yourself and to be authentic. Express yourself however you like and in a way you feel comfortable. if you have not told your partner I do feel for you but you made that predicament yourself. Only by freeing your inner you to the world will you feel liberated and find the happiness you deserve.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I've spoken with many on the CD forum who appear to have significant gender issues, some who need professional help in my opinion. All of them found the TS forum to be hostile, unsupportive, and unwelcoming, largely because of exclusionary attitudes like yours. They were "just CDs", so they didn't belong on the TS forum, their issues were nothing like those of the TS girls, who did them a "favor" by convincing them their feelings of GD were just a runaway case of fantasy.

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This is really sad that this has to happen. First, many of us suffer from serious gender issues, whether we are TS or CD or some other gender variant. Second, we're all hated by society. People don't like cross-dressers or transsexuals or other gender variants.

What's really sad is many of us who come on here really need desperate help. We might be afraid to go see a therapist because we got screwed over by a psychic (substitute psychic with priest, minister, rabbi, coach, counselor, or another therapist, 12-step sponsor, or someone else who was supposed to help you and betrayed you). Believe me my experience with the psychic has scarred me for a long time about seeing a therapist, because she was supposed to help me and she completely turned a blind eye to the fact that I was dealing with serious gender issues. Some of us cannot afford to see a therapist. Some of us are too shy and afraid to join an in person support group. Some of us live in remote areas where the nearest therapist or support group is a 3 hour drive away.

For many reasons, joining a forum is a great way to get answers to problems that are really bothering us, and to start searching for a solution. We don't have to spend any money. We don't have to turn our life over to one person. We don't have to see anyone face to face, and we can thus overcome our shyness and fears. And we don't have to waste time in a car, money on gas, or stress ourselves out in traffic. And we can post 24/7 - no need to be at a specific place at a specific time, and no conflicts with work or other commitments. I certainly joined for these same reasons and it's taken me months to get to a point where I'll consider seeing a therapist or in person support group, so this forum was a great help and necessity to beginning to deal with my gender issues.

Sadly, not everybody has had such a positive experience. Sadly, people get chased away by others on here because of insecurity, fear, and a trannier than thou attitude. Some of the girls on here think that "only my problems are real" or "your problems aren't that bad" or "you're just a CD" or "it's just a sexual fetish". The cruel truth is we're suffering from serious problems and it doesn't matter if one group has it worse than another, because maybe they don't. Maybe CDs and TSs just have different sets of problems and neither is privileged to the other. Society certainly doesn't see it that way.

We should know better. We're hated by society. We've lived on both the male and female sides of life for at least some percentage. Why can't we just get along? Why do we have to fight and argue.

I'm not accusing everyone of this. Most of us here care, most of us play by the rules most of the time. Most of us want to give and receive help. It's a few people that ruin it for all. All it takes is one person to say the wrong thing and it can literally ruin someone. We are vulnerable as a group, and yes some of us are more thin-skinned than others - I should know because I've been told that several times that I need to grow a thick skin and stop caring about what others think.

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

You seem to be the only one in this thread who is imagining injustice where none exist.

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This kind of arguing has happened on plenty of threads before, and plenty of us have been involved in the arguing, myself included. Please don't accuse one person of seeing injustice, it has occurred before. Threads have been closed by the mods because of it. Maybe it's time to start a new forum called "Controversial Forum" for fighting topics like this one, with me as the mod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc45-ptHMxo
(link)

Relevant?

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Originally Posted by stefan37

I am in agreement with Melissa and April that it is important to be authentic....The point is to be yourself and to be authentic....Only by freeing your inner you to the world will you feel liberated and find the happiness you deserve.

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First, I agree with Michelle (post #107) that it's sad that there is so much hostility on the forum. I have had both good and bad experiences in my five years here, and I'm still here, taking the good with the bad. I used to think we are a community with much in common, but then saw that perhaps we have only one thing in common, that we were born male and now wear women's clothing. There is one more, as others have said: the reasons we dress as we do don't much matter to the ignorant (not stupid, just uninformed) general public which includes friends, family, employers etc., that our behavior is deviant and all that goes with that. The reasons we dress are wildly varied, and some people can't see that. PaulaQ gets it, and her acknowledgement of it got her blasted.
The OP is a GG/SO of a CDer. Melissa and April are TS, and their POV is different than that of a CDer. Authenticity is good but may be defined differently for TS than for CDers. I have read posts from more than one TS (on the CD forum) "go ahead, if you want to live your life cowering in the back of your closet, but until you admit to yourself and the world who you are, you will never find happiness". Probably good advice for a TS from a TS, but the CDer POV is different. Yet, because most TS people misidentified themselves at some point to be a CDer, they think they know the POV of the CDer. I don't think so.
I am a CDer who likes to dress for my own pleasure. I am authentic, but other than my wife knowing, I live in the closet, as there is no compelling reason for the rest of the world to know, and I have no reason to be a front-line soldier for the cause of acceptance and for the benefit of others at my expense. Happy to live my CDing life in the closet, so please stop trying to draw me and others like me out for your perception that I need to free my inner soul to the world. It ain't so.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

...I have no reason to be a front-line soldier for the cause of acceptance and for the benefit of others at my expense.

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So being your brother's (sister's) keeper or looking out for the whole community isn't your thing? Let's hope that after they pick off the TSs and the CDs who are out, they don't start raiding closets. Be that as it may, what is your feeling about the OP's question that some don't like being a man and doing manly things? Why is a TS's opinion (having been a man or trying to act like one once) different than a CD when it comes to stereotypical behavior? We have all rowed the same boat. There are very few here who won't or don't want opinions from anyone who has walked the path. Technically everyone's perspective is different. so any opinion would be just as valuable as another.

Thanks, Zylia, for that link. I thought it was very relevant.

Lorileah, no I can't look out for the whole community. I know...repeat, I know....my job would be in jeopardy if my boss knew I crossdressed. I have known him for decades, he is a good friend, I like my job and the pay, but I know that he sees all CDers, TS, gay, lesbian, bi, effeminate mannerisms and speech, etc. as the same "queer". I don't fear my closet being raided by whoever "they" are.
As for the OP's question, if some men don't like doing manly things, that's OK with me. But in a marriage where those feelings weren't made known before-hand, it's a problem. I can't relate, though, because I identify as a man (who likes to dress up occasionally) and enjoy man things including certain responsibilities and expectations. It is possible, though, that not liking "always being the man" is a strategy/excuse to escape responsibilities. But those with gender issues may see it differently.
I don't think we have all rowed the same boat. I am confused by "having been a man". Many or most TS say they have always been female, just in the wrong body, and not a male that became a female. I do understand (as much as it possible for a non-TS) "trying to act like one", trying to meet the expectations of others based on a person's sex. I will never say that I know what it's like to be TS, and I don't believe a TS knows what it's like to be a CDer. Yes, you crossdressed, but you were never a crossdresser.
I value the opinion of others, but value it less when opinion turns to judgement. "Here's what worked for me, so you should, too". My post was prompted by the post that suggested authenticity...defined as being who you are to the world... as necessary to free the soul. That some people can see things only one way leads me to see a somewhat dysfunctional community, and that's what my post was about.

Some people get awefully bent out of shape over words on a computer screen. It's amazing how easy it is to be misinterpreted here. Nicole has just said what I was trying to say earlier to Paula. Paula can't really use her CDing experience in retaliation to CDers because she is TS. Even if on the surface a crossdressers CDing and a pre-transition TSes CDing look similar they are coming at it from different places one is not better or more valid then the other there just different. I was not dissing CDers, I was not excluding anyone from any phantom non existent clubs. I wasn't suggesting that every CD needs to be out and proud to be happy. I was merely agreeing with Misty that guys don't have to like sports or enjoy fixing cars to be guys. Guys can like opera or ballet if they want. They can enjoy ballroom dancing with their wives. They can watch a romantic comedy with their GF. Only an extreme homophobe would call a man a sissy or fag for doing these things. You don't have pretend to be a stereotype in order to protect your masculinity.

answer the OP or this thread is done. Arguing who has the best perspective is not going anywhere

Yes, the thread got off track, but perspective is relevant to the OP's question. There seems to be a lot of one-downsmanship - I've got it worse than you. For me, being the man is easy, because I am one and I just like to crossdress occasionally. I don't know how a TS thinks, but from what I have read from TS over the years, there are TS who are tired of pretending they are men to fulfill others' expectations, tired of pretending they are men because they are NOT men.
I can imagine my wife's reaction if I were to announce "I'm tired of needing to always be a man". I might hear "Fine. I'm tired of always needing to be a woman. Say hello to your favorite hand, because that's your new woman". In any case, whatever the perspective, such news would not be good for the relationship which started as the man being the man. The issue, as presented by the OP, has little to do with dressing.
If we are to be a community giving and getting support for all, we need to start seeing things from perspectives other than our own. If we can't do that, we should quit making blanket statements to a broad audience but from a narrow perspective.

Gosh - did I miss all the early fun on this one :cheer:
I'm a guy - and I CD. I don't tire of being who I am. I do sometimes tire of the pressures of life, and those pressures generally apply to the male and female roles in unequal measures, for different reasons, and at different times of life.
I like fixing cars (Guy+) but I live in the UK and hate soccer (Guy-). I like the art of makeup (Girl+ Guy-) but I still look like a guy in a dress (Girl-). I like ballet, opera, literature, art, baking (?) - I don't like team sports, pub crawls... I could go on... what I think I'm trying to say, in answer to the OP, is that none of us totally fit one stereotypical image. We're all different, and perhaps those unequal pressures weigh more heavily on some than others. To me, it's easy to understand how someone who also has to cope with the complexities of real gender issues can feel overly burdened by the pressure of societal or familial expectations.
Does that answer the question? I feel better for saying it anyhow...? :D

Now I must go back to my baking...
Katey x

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Originally Posted by Katey888

what I think I'm trying to say, in answer to the OP, is that none of us totally fit one stereotypical image. We're all different, and perhaps those unequal pressures weigh more heavily on some than others.

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Maybe, there in lays one of the problems, to fit in within our society many of us force ourselves into stereotypical behaviors and images. When this gets added to the pressures of life, it causes us to go to the opposite extreme when we dress up. The pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, when what we need is to find a happy middle ground. I'm not saying it is easy, but these massive pendulum swings are not easy on us either, also our families.

Good save Nicole, and I mean that sincerely. It is a good point about what the OP is bringing up. That there are men who are or are they? tired of being a man. It has so much variance of opinion simply to what a man really even is. CD's and TS's do have something in common. Both are to some degree, or more, more feminine than that of the average guy. It is a femininity that drives a desire to do anything that emulates women. Whether it only applies to dressing and appearance, and only occasionally, it is still there. Part of the way, half the way to where a TS is, but still there. Similar issues still arise. And CD's often do feel trapped (as I have read numerous times here) of expectations they do not fit well. No, they do not want to change their physical gender. But many of them, and I being among the CD crowd in a certain sense often feel trapped, or that we are not a good fit for societies expectations.

My personal experience with this phenemon if you want to call it that is not that I dislike or feel so out of place with being a man or the expectations of being one. It is the lack of inclusion and the expectation that I should not be included in feminine and woman type expectations, including dressing. If there is one thing I do truly dislike about being a man is body hair. I dislike body hair. I am somewhat fortunate that I do not have a lot of it, but more than almost all women have. I shave most of mine off. Society has an expectation that I should not shave it off. (I know its not as taboo as it used to be) but still, why would a 49 year old man who is not seriously involved in athletics shave his legs, shoulders, underarms and hands? I keep the upper chest hair per my wife's request. If the only reason is that I like to be hairless than that is not a "normal thing to do. It is a girly thing to do and yadda yadda. There are plenty of other examples of course, dressing, make up, nail length.... I would like to partake in these things, but to do so puts me out of societies expectations as a guy.