The plight of the SO

I wanted to post this as I want to have an opportunity to try and give the GG’s an opportunity to express their side of the story. I've found more and more that I get worked up reading many of the threads relating to SO's in the MTF forum. To me it seems that so many of the people on here are so quick to pin all the blame on the SO's. Now I'm not saying that everyone has this attitude, some of you give fantastic "balanced" responses trying to highlight how a situation may be seen from both the CD’s and the GG’s point of view.

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing. And yes it's true that we could walk away from the relationship/marriage just because of the CDing but in all honesty most of us are in far too deep for that to be a simple option. For us GG’s on here, I think the very fact that we are here on this site shows that we are the ones who trying to accept this part of our partner's personalities but it's not that easy.

I see so many of the CDer's talking about how we should just accept their CDing unconditionally because if we love them we should accept them for who they are. But don't they see that it's that fact that causes the problem in the first place? If we didn't love them it'd be easy to just walk away, but because we do love them we struggle on desperate to try and accept, but of course there's going to be a few backward steps down that road to acceptance. I'd very much like to see how well many of you would cope if the boot was on the other foot and you found out your partner was a FTM CDer! I very much doubt you would be the perfect SO immediately. Think about how you’d feel that you’re lovely woman all of a sudden wanted to act and dress like a man. Give it some serious thought for a while (but you must also be in the mind set that you are not a CD yourself, you’re just a bog standard everyday guy) and then perhaps it might help you understand how we’re feeling.

So I guess my point is that I sometimes wonder why I'm on this site. Have you never thought that it may be slightly hypocritical to talk about us accepting you all the time when you can't accept that an SO may have a difficult time accepting your CDing? Most of you have had years to come to terms with your CDing, yet you expect us to be able to accept in a much shorter space of time. Don't you often talk about how you were racked with guilt and confusion initially... Isn't it obvious that some of that is going to be the same for an SO?

I guess the real purpose of this thread was to try and highlight the plight of the SO. It’s not easy for us and it upsets me to see the number of “SO hate threads” that I’ve recently read.

Finally I’d like to finish and just say that this is not aimed at all CD’s on this site. Many of you are fantastic, but it just concerns me that a growing number seem to only be able to see things from the CD point of view.

You bring up some really good points.

I for one have been guilty of being hypocritical with my wife about her accepting me as a CD. But I can say I have changed my opinion over time that I am the one who had thrown the proverbial monkey wrench into our relationship by coming out to her. I have since come to understand that I should be willing to listen to her concerns and try to understand her point of view instead of getting frustrated because she just didn't jump right on the CD band wagon from the instant I told her about myself.

I also believe that what your seeing here is the way the male mind really works. (if we want to admit it or not). I feel horrible about what I have put my wife through, But I feel good now about taking the right steps necessary to help her understand me better and as a result the communication between us has improved greatly.

I agree with your points on acceptance it seems like most people want it one way. Many Cd's and men in general need to examine their own biases and realize that their level of unacceptance in any area is what I assume from what I read here is what their SO's are going through. Let's try exercising our inner woman and not just dress the talk. :2c:Kahlan

Raverbabe GG, you are absolutely correct. My wife is not bi. She does not want a sexual relationship with someone dressed as a woman. Once a SO finds out about our "hobby", it changes the way the see us. Sometimes they just can't get the image of us dressed as women out of their heads. As you said, how would we feel if the shoe was on the other foot. I know I would not be a happy camper! Great thread, it should open a few eyes and make a few of us think.

I agree with your thread. It has to be VERY difficult.The risk of being isolated from friends and family because you're married to a CD must be as bad as it is for us.

I get VERY depressed sometimes due mainly to this issue. My wife and family are first, but I have been bitten by the CD thing since 5 years old. Have tried to stop many times.

Nice post, I hope it generates a lot of serious thought and discussion. Guys can be very thoughless sometimes and the same can be said about some gurls...:sad: I know this thing we share can cloud our perceptions. We often mistake acknowledgement for acceptance, toleration for enjoyment, and participation for [well, you know]. We sometimes blissfully live with a SO who is in deep crisis and has nowhere to turn, ignoring the clearest signs of distress. She finally snaps and we cannot understand why she left.

As a life long CD'er that has been married more than once and has had my share of good and bad relationships, I can say that I did take advantage of a few relationships and a few SO's. Not intentionally or knowingly, but I my younger days I'd ignore my SO's feelings and assumed way too much.

Today I'm with a wonderful gal. She is working to understand me and this thing. Our relationship is far better than any I've known, not perfect but we do try to stay on the same page. We still have our bad days, but I try to be aware of her feelings and adjust my behaviour to suit her. She didn't ask for this, this is not how she'd chose to live her life. She has changed, just as I have for her. I love that she can still laughs at stuff like Cosmo Kramer's "manzer", "Tootsie" and "Klinger".

As for this site, I think you'll find that there are always new gurls coming in. Just as there are some gurls moving on. I see this site as a good tool. It is a good info exchange and really helps to "refine" us. Sometimes the new gurls come in a little coarse, a little compulsive and impulsive. We are all thrown together here and some posters' thoughts may be a little out there. Do NOT allow the words of some people to upset you. You can always hit the ignore button. :p

Hopefully, threads like this help ALL of us to understand and work with their SO's better.

Thanks for your wonderful post. Lynn

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Originally Posted by raverbabe gg

I wanted to post this as I want to have an opportunity to try and give the GG’s an opportunity to express their side of the story. I've found more and more that I get worked up reading many of the threads relating to SO's in the MTF forum. To me it seems that so many of the people on here are so quick to pin all the blame on the SO's. Now I'm not saying that everyone has this attitude, some of you give fantastic "balanced" responses trying to highlight how a situation may be seen from both the CD’s and the GG’s point of view.

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing. And yes it's true that we could walk away from the relationship/marriage just because of the CDing but in all honesty most of us are in far too deep for that to be a simple option. For us GG’s on here, I think the very fact that we are here on this site shows that we are the ones who trying to accept this part of our partner's personalities but it's not that easy.

I see so many of the CDer's talking about how we should just accept their CDing unconditionally because if we love them we should accept them for who they are. But don't they see that it's that fact that causes the problem in the first place? If we didn't love them it'd be easy to just walk away, but because we do love them we struggle on desperate to try and accept, but of course there's going to be a few backward steps down that road to acceptance. I'd very much like to see how well many of you would cope if the boot was on the other foot and you found out your partner was a FTM CDer! I very much doubt you would be the perfect SO immediately. Think about how you’d feel that you’re lovely woman all of a sudden wanted to act and dress like a man. Give it some serious thought for a while (but you must also be in the mind set that you are not a CD yourself, you’re just a bog standard everyday guy) and then perhaps it might help you understand how we’re feeling.

So I guess my point is that I sometimes wonder why I'm on this site. Have you never thought that it may be slightly hypocritical to talk about us accepting you all the time when you can't accept that an SO may have a difficult time accepting your CDing? Most of you have had years to come to terms with your CDing, yet you expect us to be able to accept in a much shorter space of time. Don't you often talk about how you were racked with guilt and confusion initially... Isn't it obvious that some of that is going to be the same for an SO?

I guess the real purpose of this thread was to try and highlight the plight of the SO. It’s not easy for us and it upsets me to see the number of “SO hate threads” that I’ve recently read.

Finally I’d like to finish and just say that this is not aimed at all CD’s on this site. Many of you are fantastic, but it just concerns me that a growing number seem to only be able to see things from the CD point of view.

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Originally Posted by raverbabe gg

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing.

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Actually, neither did we. Choose that is. Many of us anyway. Many of us are trans and as such were born this way.

Sure, the SO can walk away, but we can't.

Some of us have tried stopping, to no avail.

So, as for fault. Nobody is at fault.

Some, both CD and SO are very selfish. All or nothing ultimatums are very selfish.

But for the most part, IMHO, a good number of us work out a sufficient compromise.

I think we would rather there be some understanding even if there is very little to no acceptance.

I wouldn't blame any wife for not accepting a crossdresser as a husband... Especially if they didn't know about it going into the relationship.. I know I'd have a hard time accepting a wife that crossdressed.. So its not her fault I crossdress... It's my cross to bear and mine alone!!!

Karren

Hey RaverbabeGG, if you have not already seen it, there is a current thread that is quite like yours, it is called "My former SO".

Having found out about my SO's dressing in May, she told me about this site. It has helped me to understand the person that she is.
But our problem is that she also told me that she is gay. I read on here that so many of you are STR8, and I wish she/he was. I don't know if it is something that I could accept as a spouse. Now that I know that we are not going to be married, I am just trying to learn who she really is. If we are to continue as friends I have to understand everything about her. I am not sure if alot of CD's are gay. It this point knowing about the CD'ing just does not matter. She has been dressing around me and I see how happy she is. We even went shopping together. The CDing is not why we are divorcing.


Plain Jane

I think this touches on some of the reasons behind why many of us do hide our CDing from the wife and family.

I'd like to add some food for thought (gee I think thats my favorite phrase on this site :heehee:) if I may.

I think the reason so many find themselves bein given ultimatums or unacceptance from thier SO's has to do with the fact that CD is so outside the realm of "normalcy" (and I use that term losely since normal is such a broad term) It would be different if it was somethin like sports or fishin or poker with the boys. If falls WAY outside the "normal" gender roles. And as much as yall say screw society, society/culture DOES play a lot into peoples upbringing.

I had more to add but my mind just decided to take a vacation on me :rolleyes: so I'll add more if I remember later.

Just some food for thought!!!

and KUDOS raverbabe :hugs: great thread!!

Nic

raverbabe, some very good points.

I have every understanding for your point of view.
That is because CDs and their SOs are sitting in the same boat IMO.

Personally I have (had) very similar struggles like you pointed out.
Most of us were raised to become a "normal" member of the society.
So we know what is expected, what is forbidden, what causes problems, what is liked and what is disliked. To bring this together with our other side is THE PROBLEM for ourselves also.

DonnaT already said it.

We havn't asked for that part of our life.
We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing.

A difference is that you as a SO can walk away from it (maybe you even should sometimes), we CDs (or TG folks) can't. We have to live with it somehow.

I think I understand and have sympathy for the concers of SOs (nothing wrong with it), I have no sympathy for denegation and dispraise.
I am positive that there most always is a way to deal with Cding in a dignified way. I have seen several different approaches here on this froum. But BOTH have to be willing to.

Raver, you express the issue very well. It's easy to get defensive about many things when reading some of these posts. Some, not all.

I'd like to paraprase a quote from Helen Boyd's 1st book. (I do not maintain that she is the ultimate authority on TGness, but the lady has done an impressive amount of research and makes some very informed, common sense statements.) "Some people are just bad husbands/wives." When CDing comes in contact with one of these people, IMO, someone is going to get hurt every time. Since no one would want to admit they are a "bad partner", it's much easier to live with blaming the other person.

Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult in a somewhat free society. However, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly). It can't always be about the one in any relationship. At some point, you have to put yourself (your needs, your wants) 2nd so the other can be #1 for awhile. And vice versa.

If you look at the history of posts for most members, I believe you'll find a progression of understanding, tolerance and acceptance (either of themselves or their spouse). Those that keep growing, eventually find no need for a support group and leave the fold. Many never progress to a CD comfort zone in their "real" day-to-day lives and hang around forever with on-line forums being the "real" world for CDing issues. Others take a look and say "No flippin' way" and leave the sites and relationship immediately, never looking back. All are valid options, depending on your perspective.

I'm still here. I'm not 100% sure why, but I do know that I've met some very interesting, great people that I want to maintain contact with. Also, I'm still curious. Not sure about what, but I keep wondering what's happening in CDs.com-world. Perhaps an unhealthy obsession, perhaps a sense of community. Doesn't matter - when I receive no benefit of some kind for coming here, I'll stop.

But in the end, what is most important to me is what my CDer is wanting to do and how that will effect our life. What is said in this forum, from enlightening to ridiculous, is simply education of the possibilities. And a good number of valued hugs when the going gets tough. I refuse to internalize any perceived "blame" heaped on the SO by venting CDs or rejected husbands. As my husband will say whenever I mention an outlandish post, "I didn't do it!" :D And he didn't - neither did I. It makes the defensiveness easier to dismiss. :happy:

Gay or str8 seems to be a different issue. accepting CD'ing or even TG is one thing, but living with a person that is sleeping with other people is something else completely. I don't know it I'd accept my SO sleeping with a male or female, why would I expect her to accept it from me.

While most CD'er are str8 or like to say they are [many are], there is a group that is Bi or gay. Sometimes fantacy, sometime reality. As some push themselves closer to looking and acting more and more like a women they want to experience being with a man. Sometimes it is a phase and once you act on it you may come home.

Some gurls that are TG don't see being with a male as gay, rather it is part of being who they are, a women. Because you say she called herself gay, my guess is, she may not be TG.

Whether your gurl is transgendered or gay, it is good she has you as a friend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plain Jane

Having found out about my SO's dressing in May, she told me about this site. It has helped me to understand the person that she is.
But our problem is that she also told me that she is gay. I read on here that so many of you are STR8, and I wish she/he was. I don't know if it is something that I could accept as a spouse. Now that I know that we are not going to be married, I am just trying to learn who she really is. If we are to continue as friends I have to understand everything about her. I am not sure if alot of CD's are gay. It this point knowing about the CD'ing just does not matter. She has been dressing around me and I see how happy she is. We even went shopping together. The CDing is not why we are divorcing.


Plain Jane

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I haven't got a lot of time for a reply as I'm about to shoot off to work and won't get a chance to get on here properly until tomorrow but I wanted to add a quick reply in here.

First of all thanks for all the fantastic replies everyone, I was a little wary about posting this incase a got a lot of "hate" responses but it's really refreshing to see the responses that have been given.

I'd also like to say it is a very good point that's been brought up about the CD having no choice in the matter either and I agree with that.

And to DonnaT, when I said it wasn't the SO's fault I didn't mean that therefore it was the CD's fault. I was trying to highlight the fact that when we don't agree with everylittle thing that a CD may want to do, that we set rules and boundaries you don't agree with or when we do something you don't agree with it's not necessarily all our fault. We're struggling to come to terms with something that's very difficult for us to accept and as a result many of us have some blips along the way to acceptance.

And LaFem that is an excellent thread, I hadn't seen it. I've given in a quick scan through but I'll give it a proper read tomorrow when I've got to time to look through it properly.

Raverbabe, I do agree with you to a point. Many do blame the SO's, but I caulk that up to the point that we are mostly CDers here so there is more of that point of view. I see the validity of the blame is always questionable as we never have the full story from both points of views.

IMO a lot of the blame should go to generally poor relationship skills and communication. These are not usually taught and most of us to not try to improve them on our own. And last time I checked there was not a manual for marriage. Then add most do not seem to get help from a professional when the relationship gets on the rocks. And if they do they often wait too late and one of the partners has already given up. Then add to that many go for help with the CDing to those that are not qualified. And all of the other issues are over looked.

Along the lines of communication there is also the spouse, CD or GG that will not open up to the other one. And interestingly it seems that the one that is trying to get the other open up and talk / communicate is fairly open minded and trying to communicatea, as in the case of the GG or in the case of the CD being open and not pushing the GG.

After that there are so many different situations that it is hard IMHO to push the blame to either side. And not just CDing issues, but all marriage / relationship issues. They are all inter-related.

But a couple of large issues I often see is:

A CDer wants acceptance from a spouse and others but they have yet to accept them self. The CDer is a moving target and they often seem to not allow the Spouse into their inner world so they can understand a bit better and help. It is hard for anyone to understand something that may change from day to day.

A CDer, say age 40 has been dealing with there CDing all their life and is either found out or coming to some type of self acceptance and wants to come out to their spouse. The CDer has had a life time of dealing with, and often seem to have the attitude that the Spouse should suddenly accept them for who they are. Get real. 40 years versus a few days, months, or even years is not fair. There is a lot of communication that needs to be done as for the CDing. Then add in any other issues there may be.

The CD's and SO's come here looking for help and support. There is a lot of information here. IMHO, often the CDers think they are or need to be like other CDers. When they really need to look within them self and see who they are and what they really want out of life. And the SO's look at what other CD's / TG's / TS's are and do and think that is who their CD spouse is. When they need to be talking with their CD to try and understand who they are and what they may want.

Plain Jane,

I feel for you as I do for my SO. I recently came out to her after almost 28 years of marriage and two young adult children. First I told her that I am a crossdresser and then I told her I am gay. She then asked if I planned on becoming a woman. I told her no only because of my age. We will be separating soon and then probably divorcing later on. Since I can't leave presently for financial reasons we have been spending a lot of time talking. One of the questions was, "how can I be gay if I been with her all this time?" I replied that I was really bisexual but that I don't have any interest in having sex with any other woman, only men. I want to find a man to have a relationship with who will be accepting of my dressing and who I can be the 'woman' with. This is breaking my heart more than anyone can ever know but the stress for me had reached a boiling point and so I have to leave.
I will be keeping in constant contact with her though and she will be my best friend.

Raverbabe,

Sorry for detracting from your thread.

I agree with Karen. When and if I find a man to have a relationship with I don't want him to be a crossdresser. I want him to be all man in a gentlemanly way.

Bonnie

Bonnie D
Your wife and I are in the same place. I have found alot of support group on the net. We also have to stay together because of having a business together.
The day that I caught her dressed, I had to come home from work to get something, and found her. Had to go back to work and act like everything was fine. I wonder if anyone noticed that I smoked 4 cig's for my dinner that day. I hoped beyond hope that he was STR8. If it was just a side to him that I did not know, I would have gladly been able to see him dressed. Just to have him with me. But I am very glad that she told me the truth.

I know we are getting off the track of this thread, but I feel that if your SO is a CD and they are in love with you and STR8, than this is just who they are. You should try to accept them. If you have a true love, don't let there be a secret between you.

Are you sure your not my wife? You sound just like her.

I applaud you. Good for you. The selfishnes that gets involved in cding can be astounding.

I try hard to please both of us and it really isn't easy. I've put my wife through alot of hard times and maybe she can learn to forgive in time. Yes I've gone through alot of things coping with this side of me and tried most of the time not to involve her. She wants nothing to do with it and I respect it no matter how hard. I've blundered and fallen but she has often picked me back up. I love her. I've been no angel and nearly lost her.

So I have my secret life which isn't much of one. I've barely any femme stuff and try to make do.

Hi everyone - what a great thread!

This is my first post outside of the welcoming introductions - and what a gem to add my penny-worth to!

The difficulties facing cross-dressers involved in a relationship are huge - and for the wives and partners equally so.

One of the problems is that many cross-dressers have things in common, but the way the urge is actually expressed or is sought to be expressed varies so much that almost every instance is to some extent individual.

In my case, when I met the person who was to become my wife I told her that cross-dressing had been a feature in my life - genuinely confident that 'the demon' had finally left me in peace after 30-or-so years.

Almost ten years on I am back in a situation I hoped never to revisit - wearing underwear in secret and loving it - but feeling awful that there is something unspoken and unexpressed between my wife and I when we had started off so openly.

On the whole I am a conformist, to a fault according to my wife. However, in this one area I cannot entirely conform and the range of pleasure I get from it is proportionate to it being so out of the character I generally present.

One of the issues, then, is how much is the cross-dressing a threat. I believed that one of the reasons I had stopped needing it was that the relationship was more complete than any other I had experienced. To admit that I have gone back to that need might imply that the strength of the relationship has lessened, when in truth I don't think that is so. However, another need is clearly re-asserting itself and it is a powerful threat to the equilibrium we have enjoyed for so long.

One of the issues with a long-standing relationship is that each partner takes from it what they want, or need, and the aspects that are not so great are either simply tolerated or dismissed with a 'blind eye'. Compulsive behaviour is by its nature, however, sufficiently outside the norm that it is difficult to deal with in either of these ways.

Both my wife and I are very sceptical about compulsive or overtly selfish behaviour. We always agree before going out who will drive - and it can literally be either of us on any given occasion. On the other hand, if we are going somewhere that I know she especially likes to relax with a drink, I will always drive.

We have a friend whose partner is very keen on golf - to the extent that it is quite destructive to them as a couple. We often talk about it amongst the four of us.

However, to share with them, let alone my wife, that I have a compulsion to wear women's underwear is in most respects in a different league altogether and should be recognised as such.

It is early days - both in terms of my membership of this forum and in my consideration of how I deal with this situation, so I will let you know how and when things develop.

At least my step-daughter has now left home and her protection is not such an important additional issue - but one thing is certain. Something will need to be done to avoid the damage of the secret eating away at me - but just how to broach the subject before I am 'discovered' needs careful consideration.

I have already had a 'near-miss', and one that speaks volumes about boundaries and perceptions. I bought some micro fibre knickers (panties) and took out the labels 'just in case.' They are so anonymous - without any lace frills or anything - that I actually found them particularly practical to wear when going to the gym.

When I accidentally left a pair in my gym bag and my wife found them, I told her that I had bought them from a web-site that sold nylon underwear for men. I was so relieved that this was accepted as an explanation that I no longer keep them hidden - but wear them regularly. However, only I know know completely what they are - a fact that makes them great to wear because I have that knowledge, but also acceptable because my wife doesn't. We have even had sex with me wearing them, my wife recognising that their 'slinky feel' is something that enhances things for me - just as her wearing sexy lingerie does. How differently she would feel if I left the label on and they were identifiably female is difficult to judge.

To take this just one step further and to present myself in the slip that I routinely wear under my male clothes, however, would be a huge matter. There is no room for doubt what a slip is. I also have male underwear that is very similar in its tactile feel and does not offend my wife in any way, but it does not give me the same buzz either!

So at one level it comes down to the fact that the straps of the slip are the things that I am conscious of during the day - and remind me that I am wearing it - and the one thing I cannot reveal to anyone else!

If I could also find female 'tank top' style slips I would have the best of both worlds. Perhaps.

This thread deserves to run and run (no pun intended.)

Love to all

Lesley

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Originally Posted by GACountrygal GG

I'd like to add some food for thought (gee I think thats my favorite phrase on this site :heehee:) if I may.

has to do with the fact that CD is so outside the realm of "normalcy" (and I use that term losely since normal is such a broad term) It would be different if it was somethin like sports or fishin or poker with the boys. If falls WAY outside the "normal" gender roles. And as much as yall say screw society, society/culture DOES play a lot into peoples upbringing.

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Notice that you said gender ROLES. Trying to follow a script can sometimes lead to a life of great unhappiness.
As food for thought, I'd point out that it wasn't that long ago that a wife who didn't do the cooking & cleaning & taking care of children was "so outside the realm of normalcy." It wasn't that long ago a black man & a white woman getting married was outside the realm of normalcy. It wasn't so long ago a woman wearing pants was outside the realm of normalcy, etc.
Society/culture plays somewhat into people's upbringing, but as an adult they make choices as to how they decide to live their lives, based on what best feels right for them, and that may contradict completely what their upbringing programmed them to be.

I look at her acceptance and encouragement as a honeymoon period before a lot of the what ifs have crept in. I'm enjoying a lot of latitude and freedom and it feels good.

The only reason my wished for fantasy and my (at least for present) reality match up AT ALL is the happy coincidence that I, a closeted CD who wasn't sure what it all meant, happened to fall in love with and connive into marrying a cute girl who, like me does find the female form to be appealing or dare I say it, arousing.

If any of the opposites were true this would be awkward. For one example, If I had a soft spot for lumberjacks (I mean the Brawny dude ones not the Monty Python variety), It wouldnt be fun for her to put on plaid and pencil in some razor stubble, and swing a big double headed axe. In the next case, say she had always loved wearing those Sears Super-Dennis boy jeans that her evil stepmother bought her, we might have a problem. I don't even find GG sweatpants arousing, so how would I feel if she wanted to have a double mastectomy and have hair plugs added to her chest?

Thats really what we are asking. We want acceptance on our terms because of course whatever our gender identity is on the continuum, we cannot change that through willpower, neither can they on the orientation continuum. If it isnt interesting, it just isnt.

Having said that, when her early attempt to broach the subject of my dressing that she stumbled upon, I was devastated to hear that she would "have no problem with my dressing if that is what I wanted to do." In my immaturity I yearned for beyond acceptance to actual jaw dropping arousal. If she wasn't into it, I didn't want to even look at that part of me. What would be the point I thought.

From LONNNNG therapy-like talks we have had and lots more reading than posting here, and elsewhere I have found out a lot about Barbara.

She was formed early or was always there. It was non-sexual which seems odd given that I so eagerly wanted to include her in that way. She was shoved back in the closet probably just before puberty, and has had only the slightest peek at the world on really a couple dozen occasions in verses a total of 42 years developing my admittedly underdeveloped male persona.

Barbara is in essence a giggly teenager, reading tiger beat for make-up tips. she craves attention and acceptance. She wants to be noticed, she wants to be pretty,and needs constant assurance that she is.

I am rushing her maturation, because this feels too important to drop, and too fraught with interpersonal peril not to get it right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Notice that you said gender ROLES. Trying to follow a script can sometimes lead to a life of great unhappiness.
As food for thought, I'd point out that it wasn't that long ago that a wife who didn't do the cooking & cleaning & taking care of children was "so outside the realm of normalcy." It wasn't that long ago a black man & a white woman getting married was outside the realm of normalcy. It wasn't so long ago a woman wearing pants was outside the realm of normalcy, etc.
Society/culture plays somewhat into people's upbringing, but as an adult they make choices as to how they decide to live their lives, based on what best feels right for them, and that may contradict completely what their upbringing programmed them to be.

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Yup I said ROLES. Thats what I meant.

You stated the progression of things about cooking cleaning, pants and so on..well they have changed. But one thing to remember is that generaly folks brought up before, lets just say Gen X (born 1980-2000) fall into the more "old fashioned" social roles. Whereas my generation, Generation X, has been brought up VERY differently (some ridiculous stuff but I wont go into that here) and seems to have a better "acceptance" rate of anything outside "normalcy" yanno what I'm sayin???

Hopefully thats clear enough for yall to understand. Its as best as I can put it right now!!

Nic

I, like you raverbabe, have read many threads about how to deal with your SO about dressing up and acting like a woman, and the placing of blame. I have seen wonderful thoughts about honesty, openness, and understanding of the SO's feelings, and the mental (and sometimes physical) trauma this can result to both the GM and especially the GG involved.

I have also read posts that seem to be advice on how to be manipulative, things to do to get your way with your SO. I find this stuff, well, to say the least, kind of creepy, I think it shows the dark side of our gender direction. (Not about everyone, no generalization implied, intended or inferred.)

What I have said above is my opinion, my honest feelings, and of course my own interpretation of the words I read.