Confused on Terms

For the longest time i was comfortable with the label 'crossdresser', being 100% hetro, not into the fetish side, etc. Now the more I read, especially Wekipedia, it seems that Crossdress is a sub category of being Transgendered, however the TG community seems split on wether to include it or not. I know there are other threads here that deal with terms and such, but is there any concrete material out there on the subject ? I mean recent scientific studies ? or are terms so fluid that they cannot be defined ? I guess the Wekipedia statement that bothered me was "The term cross-dresser should therefore be used with care to avoid causing misunderstanding or offense."

Why would someone in th TG community be offended ?

Kelly

They may have meant offending the crossdresser, as many of us are hetro and may not like any other definitions thrown in our direction.

From Webster's dictionary:

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Main Entry: trans·gen·der
Pronunciation: \-ˈjen-dər\
Variant(s): or trans·gen·dered \-dərd\
Function: adjective
Date: 1979

: of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

— trans·gen·der·ism \-ˌi-zəm\ noun

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Main Entry: cross–dress·ing
Pronunciation: \ˈkrȯs-ˌdre-siŋ\
Function: noun
Date: 1911

: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex

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So in one way, a person can be a crossdresser, but not transgender. I personally see myself and all that crossdress as transgender. If someone does not like it, then I guess they need to convince Mr. Webster to change his definitions

I take it that you have led a very sheltered existence? :D

You see, dear, not only do CDers suffer prejudice at the hands of society in general as well as the gay community, but also within the TG community. There is, you see, a de facto pecking order within and without the TG world that would deny CDers the same sort of legitimacy accorded (albeit grudgingly) full-blown, full-time, hormone-ingesting, implant-investing, scalpel-loving, woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body-and-can't-wait-to-whack-it-off transsexuals. Apparently, the fact that we feel the need (for various reasons) to strike some sort of balance in our lives means that not only are we not to be taken seriously, we may be fetishistic perverts.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you. :)

I personally think it has less to do with the clothes you wear and more to do with the feeling you have about yourself, is anyone less or more of something just because they have different clothes on , if so what do you become when you have no clothes on (that should get some of you thing):daydreaming::D

I give up. Am I a TG, TS, TV,CD, MID,DQ,Gender confused, gender dysphoric, IN, Out, Gay, straight, bi, pan,up, down, top, bottom, here today, gone tomorrow, left, right, left out, taken in, Morally bankrupt, wealthy in spirit, abstinent, easy, loose, up tight, outta sight, on the cusp, two standard deviations from normal?

There are too many "If-then" in the world. I think of all the labels in the world transsexual may be the only one that fits a certain section of our community...but wait! what if they are transsexual who don't want surgery...or they want breasts but not a lower realignment...or maybe they want the best of everything.

Auntie Em! Help me Auntie Em!:wn:

P.S. Wiki is not an end all in any sense of the word. My cat can post on Wiki, probably has under mice it's whats for dinner.

You don't have to be here very long before you learn to completely ignore terms, because lots of folks seem perfectly comfortable defining terms the way they feel is appropriate, giving no heed to the way others use the same terms, or historical definitions for terms. Many also feel completely within their rights to histrionics when someone defines terms differently than they do.

Of course - this means that the terms are all basically meaningless. So don't stress about it too much.

Of course meaningless terms lead to greater histrionics. There are girls here who consider CDing to be a hobby. There are girls here who are into CDing as a fetishistic exercise, and there are girls here who call themselves CDs but who are more honestly TG/TS. When one of the fetishists defines herself in terms that seem to include and imply that the individuals involved have similar motivations as the TS community - members of the TS community get freaked out because the TS community struggles so hard to be viewed as legitimate and not "just" sexual fetishists. Hilarity ensues.

When one of the openly TS girls uses terms that imply that the hobbyists experience or motivations are similar to their own the hobbyists get their panties in a bunch because many of them spend their lives trying to convince their wives / husbands / girlfriends / boyfriends that they really are guys and don't want to to be girls and don't want to have their junk lopped off... they just enjoy dressing up and going out as girls sometimes. Hilarity ensues.

When one of the hobbyists uses terms that seem to include fetishists and imply that their experience or motivations are similar to their own, and want to be out and open, and tell their bosses/children/friends the fetishists get weirded out because to them this is something that happens in the bed room and shouldn't really be brought out in the light of day and certainly not in front of the children. Hilarity ensues.

:iagree: Hilarity now that's funny

Jeez! :eek:

And I thought we were all here simply because we love to crossdress! :doh:

Hilary! Where's the dog? I need my pipe and stilettoes at the couch NOW!!! :love:

I remember when the term "crossdresser" began to make it's inception. This was probably back around 1979 or 1980. I first saw the word used in a book I read about transexual operations and research into all sorts of things gender variant in nature. When I was making my first timid,nervous attempts to dabble in CD'ing I thought of myself as a "Transvestite" because a lot of people were still using that term like back 30-35 years ago and I'll confess I still say the "TV" word a lot but it's all in shifting contexts and the first impressions that people may develope. "Crossdresser" is better for the sake of any kind of legal or political argument designed to put us along further for things like employment or federal housing. Things like that there. People just might swallow "crossdresser" easier than "Transvestite". I'll say that Transvestite sounds like more fun. It also sounds like clones sent by the Reticulans,Izarians and Siriuns to draft Earth children into the Intergalactic armed forces. So Crossdresser is bit politically correct,yet it fits into a social mainstream context a little better than some of the other terms.

Kelly in my journey to find myself I have been CD, TG, as well as TS. Being one or the other is just a lable and TG is the umbrella term that is accepted today to cover a lot of different lables. Sexual orientation is all together different from the lables discribed before. You can be a post op TS and still be hetro and some will say if you are PO Trans-female and attracted to females you must be a lesbian, I say I'm happy. I wouldn't get to upset or confussed but I would say be happy with yourself where ever you are.

Huggs Teri

I got sucked into a thread a while back where all these labels were being thrown around with all manner of reference to this or that "authority". I read all the bias about TS vs TG, crossdresser vs tranvestite, and on and on it went. Then, to top it off the whole conversation added gender. I may be hetero, but when? When I'm Tina am I a trans-lesbian if I'm only interested in women? Some say yes and some deride the whole idea.

With all that swirling around I realized that whether or not anyone agrees, I'm transgendered, I live alternating between a presentation in both genders, and so I'm straight and lesbian depending upon the moment!

It's all actually a bit hilarious, isn't it :)

tina

p.s. oh, btw, I began to love the term bi-gendered :)

Hope, I love your post. Spot on!

As for labels, I'm not a label, I'm me. Do I get my panties in a bunch if someone calls me something I'm not? Look, if I were that concerned about what others thought about me, would I honestly be out and about wearing the clothes that I do? Didn't think so.

:)

Kathi

Sherri and Hope have hit the mark. Though only some, not all, cause the hilarity to ensue. And considering I identified as a CD in the past, I've experienced the pecking order....personally. Did you know there's some TS's who get upset if CD's use "transgendered" in an inclusive way and imply that their feelings, while different, have some similarities to TS's? They think it should apply only to TS's, even though the term was invented by a CD.

The pecking order exists inside some (not all) TS communities too. For example, as a no-hair-removal-yet, no-mones-yet, non-full-time TS, I'm about as low as you can get on it. In fact, on IRC I was once told that I wasn't a "real" TS because "real TS's" would do anything to transition, even go into sex work to bankroll their transition.

Veronica Rogers

Hi Kelly,

I don't know about you but I'm at a point in my life were I'm not really worrying about labels anymore.

I don't really care anymore what anyone would call me.

There as so many different terms, and depending where you read about them some of the definitions vary.

Everyone I believe has a male and "female" side to them. But the degree of their female side varies. We are all affected by various things in our lives such as hormones, physical environment, pollution, medications while in the womb and afterwards in life, feelings, emotions, family environment, personalities, etc., that there is no way we can all be fitted into categories and have labels affixed to us. No two of us are identical.

As others here in the forum have so wisely advised me don't worry about labels. Just be who you are and enjoy life. That's exactly what I am trying to learn to do.


Love


Vicki :cheer:

I call people who use labels labelers I am not labeling them now but they are.

Kelly,

Loved your post. So why would anyone be offended? I don't know. Maybe some people naturally get up on the wrong side of their bed and get offended over little or nothing regardless of their affiliation. Did someone appoint Wikipedia the final word on everything?

Babette

I'm with the "no labels" team. Words are used to convey a thought. We tend to get to wrapped up in a word with a generic meaning not being specific enough to describe ourselves and then get upset/defensive.

I think there should be two rules for all on-line reading. Don't be annoying and don't be easily annoyed. The written word is not perfect.

I agree Sue. Don't be annoying and don't be easily annoyed. But there are times when that statement is hard to apply, especially the second part.

Hugs,
Alice

I'm with Terri Jean. I think of Transgendered as an "umbrella term." And, it is useful as a term we can use for all of us that fall within The Spectrum.

You all forgot about all The Variations for The "Transmen," if you want to include more labels. But lucky for all of us, we can also call them Transgendered.

One more time, let's explore commonality's, rather than define ourselves as being different....it certainly accomplishes nothing!

Peace and Love, Joanie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroll

From Webster's dictionary:

: of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth




So in one way, a person can be a crossdresser, but not transgender. I personally see myself and all that crossdress as transgender. If someone does not like it, then I guess they need to convince Mr. Webster to change his definitions

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Actually Webster is saying the opposite: who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth.
Maybe not all CD's identify with the opposite gender, but at least most are expressing a diff. gender identity.

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Originally Posted by sherri

I take it that you have led a very sheltered existence? :D

You see, dear, not only do CDers suffer prejudice at the hands of society in general as well as the gay community, but also within the TG community. There is, you see, a de facto pecking order within and without the TG world that would deny CDers the same sort of legitimacy accorded (albeit grudgingly) full-blown, full-time, hormone-ingesting, implant-investing, scalpel-loving, woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body-and-can't-wait-to-whack-it-off transsexuals. Apparently, the fact that we feel the need (for various reasons) to strike some sort of balance in our lives means that not only are we not to be taken seriously, we may be fetishistic perverts.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you. :)

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Don't hold back.. tell us how you really feel. I don't see what all of the hoopla concerning labels is all about. People use labels as descriptive on these boards. Some use them because they are proud of what they are, some use them distance themselves from others,some use them in hopes of finding others who feel the same way that they do,( this is how I feel inside..and is there anyone else out there like me?), and sadly some use them to align themselves against others. Not everyone is a cross dresser, or a transsexual, or gay, or bi, or str8. Sure we can eliminate the labels and just consider ourselves as one group, but being such a diverse group... the issues that I have as a transsexual, may not be the same issues that you have as a cross dresser and so on and so forth. For example, I am one of those full blown,full time,hormone ingesting,implant investing,woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body-and can't-wait-to-whack-it-off-transsexuals. I don't expect you as a cross dresser to understand what I am going through, just as I don't really understand why you do and what motivates you to do so. Labels can work for or against us depending on how you use them.
Prejudice has been around for centuries along with the seven deadly sins. If you let the haters and naysayers steal your thunder, they have accomplished their goal. Opinions are like a******s, everybody has one. I read the threads and I comment, I agree with some and disagree with others. At the end of the day when I log off, I don't even think about about what someone's opinion of me is. I just go back to being me. opinions are just that..opinions.
I have an opinion too.... I think that some people who blame society for all of their woes and fears regarding this thing we do, sometimes use it as a crutch." I remain in the closet because society doesn't accept that I cross dress" which may be true to a certain extent, ( for all of you that cannot venture out because.......... fill in the blank) .My opinion on that is maybe they just can't or don't accept themselves. I think that the same thing applies to to this hierarchy and pecking order. I won't dispute that the fact that it does in fact exist, but how you view it or take it to heart depends on your personal opinion of yourself and your comfort level with respect to your particular proclivity. feel free to dispute this, but do you really need to? it's just my dumb opinion, and has no bearing on your life.
I really laughed out loud at your assessment of of me. because the truth is that, it pretty much describes me to a tee, save for the disdain for others, and the scalpel part ewwwww, i don't like knives. I even had my boyfriend have a look, and he laughed as well, (he plays with scalpels everyday). I guess that my point is, if there is one..... is to not let labels and other peoples opinions get to you, because their opinion and $3.00 will get them a cup of coffee, and has no more bearing on your life than man on the moon marigolds... whatever the hell those are. I have gotten pretty good at this transsexual thing, even if I do say so myself. I am happy and content with my life and my don't give a shit about what others say attitude.:2c:

Kelly

I am still laughing.

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Originally Posted by sherri

There is, you see, a de facto pecking order within and without the TG world that would deny CDers the same sort of legitimacy accorded (albeit grudgingly) full-blown, full-time, hormone-ingesting, implant-investing, scalpel-loving, woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body-and-can't-wait-to-whack-it-off transsexuals.

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WOW!!!!!
Seems the only thing you left out was that all TS's want to "whack-it-off" because we are all really just gay men that want to have sex with straight men.

You might want to add that next time so you have the complete set of bullshit stereotypes in your next post :Angry3:

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Originally Posted by sherri

You see, dear, not only do CDers suffer prejudice at the hands of society in general as well as the gay community, but also within the TG community.

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WOW Again!!
Look who is calling the kettle black!

Because TS's lives are filled with all warm and fuzzy feelings and we are embraced with open arms..............
Believe that and I have a bridge to sell you sweetheart!

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Originally Posted by sherri

Apparently, the fact that we feel the need (for various reasons) to strike some sort of balance in our lives means that not only are we not to be taken seriously, we may be fetishistic perverts.

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As compared to what? [according to you] hormone happy whack it off wackos????

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Originally Posted by sherri

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you. :)

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Well I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you that it is small closed minded thinking like yours that makes it hard on EVERYBODY, not just CD'ers.
SO get over yourself and stop crying me a river ,,!,,

The general terms mean different things to different people because they overlap. And they keep changing as members of the TG community increase their own understanding and give themselves permission to develop. I like Wikipedia's explanation of the terms and how they have evolved.

Not to complicate things, but I don't remember seeing the term "cross-gender" before.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

People who live cross-gender

People who live cross-gender live always or mostly as the gender other than that assigned at birth. If they want to be or identify as their gender assigned at birth, then the term "crossdresser" may be used. If they want to be or identify as the gender they always or mostly live in, then the term "transsexual" may be used. The term "transgender" or "transgenderist" has been applied to people who live cross-gender without sex reassignment surgery.

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There are no meaningful scientific studies. TGs are too deeply closeted.

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Originally Posted by sherri

I take it that you have led a very sheltered existence? :D

You see, dear, not only do CDers suffer prejudice at the hands of society in general as well as the gay community, but also within the TG community. There is, you see, a de facto pecking order within and without the TG world that would deny CDers the same sort of legitimacy accorded (albeit grudgingly) full-blown, full-time, hormone-ingesting, implant-investing, scalpel-loving, woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body-and-can't-wait-to-whack-it-off transsexuals. Apparently, the fact that we feel the need (for various reasons) to strike some sort of balance in our lives means that not only are we not to be taken seriously, we may be fetishistic perverts.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you. :)

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Wow :thumbsdn: You know if Crossdressers (not all) as a subculture or group would stop with the I am not/we are not like them nonsense:brolleyes: then things might seem different in the greater community.

That almost never happens, not only on forums like ours and others. But in media as well. There have been more crossdressers on mainstream talk shows and what happens? I am/we are Not Gay! I am just a guy who likes to wear women's clothes. Oh and have a femme name, just remember I am not Gay. Did I mention fake boobs oh its just so the clothes fit. But I am not gay!

And yet you all want to whine because the gay community doesn't want to take crossdressers seriously. Can you blame them!

I have said it before and I will say it again and again. If crossdressers keep projecting this ridiculous defensive attitude where every other word out of their mouths is "I am not like them" The gays/ The transexuals they will continue as a group and subculture to get what they deserve Isolation.

I volunteer at a gay community center and interact with transexuals all the time. and the only people in our community who ever looked down their noses at me were other crossdressers! I wont go into details here.

My apology to the OP It is just that these attitudes drive me crazy:Angry3:

Well all the anxiety about these labels does seem to boil down to the cultural discomfort with this sexual orientation or the implication of such. Someday when it is shown scientifically that sexual orientation is a spectrum not unlike a probability distribution function (think Guassian or more likely Rayleigh) then folks will just describe themselves as wide-gendered or narrow-gendered owing to how much of that sexual orientation function they stretch over in units of standard deviations. Can't believe I just said all that...I promise I won't do that again. Wish I had something pink and lacy to wear right now...

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Originally Posted by LaurenB

Well all the anxiety about these labels does seem to boil down to the cultural discomfort with this sexual orientation or the implication of such. Someday when it is shown scientifically that sexual orientation is a spectrum not unlike a probability distribution function (think Guassian or more likely Rayleigh) then folks will just describe themselves as wide-gendered or narrow-gendered owing to how much of that sexual orientation function they stretch over in units of standard deviations. Can't believe I just said all that...I promise I won't do that again. Wish I had something pink and lacy to wear right now...

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I'm not sure what you're freakin' sayin' -- :) -- but I think you're really onto something with that wide-gendered / narrow-gendered idea. That resonates with me somehow.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

Wow :thumbsdn: You know if Crossdressers (not all) as a subculture or group would stop with the I am not/we are not like them nonsense:brolleyes: then things might seem different in the greater community.

That almost never happens, not only on forums like ours and others. But in media as well. There have been more crossdressers on mainstream talk shows and what happens? I am/we are Not Gay! I am just a guy who likes to wear women's clothes. Oh and have a femme name, just remember I am not Gay. Did I mention fake boobs oh its just so the clothes fit. But I am not gay!

And yet you all want to whine because the gay community doesn't want to take crossdressers seriously. Can you blame them!

I have said it before and I will say it again and again. If crossdressers keep projecting this ridiculous defensive attitude where every other word out of their mouths is "I am not like them" The gays/ The transexuals they will continue as a group and subculture to get what they deserve Isolation.

I volunteer at a gay community center and interact with transexuals all the time. and the only people in our community who ever looked down their noses at me were other crossdressers! I wont go into details here.

My apology to the OP It is just that these attitudes drive me crazy:Angry3:

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Okay, first, you do realize that there was an element of sarcasm in my post, right?

Second, you haven't heard any "I'm not gay" disclaimers from me cuz I'm openly bi-sexual.

Third, I mention prejudice within the gay community because it is real and I have experienced it first-hand. Hell, I've had gays tell me to my face that they look down on CDers. Frankly, I find that sort of prejudice unfathomable and inexcusable coming from a group that experiences so much prejudice itself. Yes, there are wonderful gays and lesbians who are very gracious toward me, but that is due largely to us getting to know each other personally (essentially overcoming the prejudice) and certainly does not mean it's universal by a long shot. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the prevailing attitude among gays toward crossdressers is one of condescension or outright prejudice.

Fourth, it is equally myopic to presume that there isn't a prejudicial hierarchy among TGs. If you haven't experienced it consider yourself blessed, cuz it's all over the place, online and in person. Again, I for one have experienced it first-hand, have even had conversations about it in which it was freely admitted and explained. There's even a hierarchy here on this forum among CDs, but I'll leave that alone for now.

Fifth, the way I combat prejudice is to recognize it for what it is and call it out, and persist in my personal interactions in spite of it. Over the years my persistence has paid off, but it hasn't been easy or always pleasant by a long shot. If you want to call that whining, well ... I disagree. Head-in-the-sand attitudes about these issues sorta drive me nuts, too. :Angry3: It disrespects what some of us have had to go through to get where we are.

So to end on a positive note, experience has taught me that it is possible to overcome prejudice through personal interaction, patience and an even temper. This approach may limit the scale of impact, but I have to believe in the ripple effect. People who are able to overcome their innate prejudices and respond or reach out positively deserve a lot of credit, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, I'll take a little credit myself for hanging in there, being willing to overlook the pettiness, and trying to put the best face on things. Sooner or later there is a payoff. I would imagine this is true for many of us who are out and about, trying to make a difference in our own small ways and our own little worlds.

My apologies, Sherri, for going math so early in the morning. Fact is I hadn't had my correct dosage of coffee yet.

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual. So somewhere along that continuum everyone has a number (oh and it may change over time). I think folks also have a "spread" on their particular number that is the extent to which they will stretch in either direction (given the situation or partner, etc.).

So a hetero CD (using our terminology) may be close to the 0 end of the spectrum (say 1.5) but is also wide-gendered meaning her spread is maybe 2 or 3 around that number. So while she'd not consider hopping in bed with a guy, it may titillate her to know a man is checking her out.

I'm probably a 4.5 with a spread of 9 - this is called the "pizza with everything on it but anchovies" classification. I like it all. Just joking....we're so wound up on classifications it limits our ultimate ability to be intimate with anyone.

What would you call someone who:

1. Likes shaving his body and wearing a dress.
2. Who likes sex with women as long as they don't act too girlie
3. Could possibly fancy a guy as long as they are not masculine?

Is there a special niche, fancy abbreviation perhaps?

Round pegs just do not fit into square holes, and crossdressers are so far out of the normal loop nobody, but us, know where to put us, to place us, to classify us. SO's are confused, the public is confused, the lesbian and gay communities are confused, everyone is confused but us, ain't it great?
When all is said and done, all we are is one hell of a lot of female in a male body. Enough already, as someone wrote, as long as you're not hurting anyone, what's the big deal?

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Originally Posted by LaurenB

Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual.

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Judging by the range of orientations expressed on this forum, I think the scale should run from
0 = completely hetero to
infinity = completely homosexual

Oh, and I'm not quite sure just how we would define those two terms!

I'm also not quite certain whether or not the scale ought to be linear or logarithmic or something completely different! One-, two, or multi-mentional?

And why should the scale not be turned around, completely?

It's the statistician in me, can I have a Bunderberg please?

OMG I am so incensed over anyone suggesting that my gender has a width of any kind. I am not wide or narrow gendered. I am average gendered.

And now we are putting various shaped pegs into holes? Will this ever stop people?

Doesn't anyone know the answer to Valerie's riddle?

This argument will never end will it?

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Originally Posted by LaurenB

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like.

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The same notion could be applied to gender, I think, which is how I originally interpreted your comment.

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Originally Posted by Hope

Of course - this means that the terms are all basically meaningless. So don't stress about it too much.

Of course meaningless terms lead to greater histrionics. There are girls here who consider CDing to be a hobby. There are girls here who are into CDing as a fetishistic exercise, and there are girls here who call themselves CDs but who are more honestly TG/TS. When one of the fetishists defines herself in terms that seem to include and imply that the individuals involved have similar motivations as the TS community - members of the TS community get freaked out because the TS community struggles so hard to be viewed as legitimate and not "just" sexual fetishists. Hilarity ensues.

When one of the openly TS girls uses terms that imply that the hobbyists experience or motivations are similar to their own the hobbyists get their panties in a bunch because many of them spend their lives trying to convince their wives / husbands / girlfriends / boyfriends that they really are guys and don't want to to be girls and don't want to have their junk lopped off... they just enjoy dressing up and going out as girls sometimes. Hilarity ensues.

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Darn it Hope you have muddied the waters even worse. It was bad enough trying to figure out if I am TG, TS, CD, Gender Dysphoric, Gender Disparaged, Drag Queen..... on and on. Now I have to determine if I am a hobbyist, fetishist, professional, amateur TS, TG, CD......Calgon Take Me Away!

I personally like the term TransGendered. It simply means across genders. Where you are on that spectrum of crossing genders matters in the least to me. It is an all encompassing term that provides our community with solidarity which is important as we strive for acceptance in the world. Pink Power!:D

Well now this has really poked a big stick in the rattlers nest and some of you ladies have come out spitting big time.
I did get a smile out of some of the posts.

I personally prefer not to be called a transvestite and am more comfortable with the term crossdresser.
Suzy Harrison did refer to me as TG this last weekend and I am not sure if that is the case as at this time I am happy as a CD male.

I have also noticed and posted on the issue of there being some sort of hierarchy within CD/TG/MTF/GAY or BIsexual.
Forgive me if some have been left out of the alphabet soup,but you get my meaning.
We are all here because we do not conform strictly to the male and female stereo type.
How about we all go along to get along.

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Originally Posted by LaurenB

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual. So somewhere along that continuum everyone has a number (oh and it may change over time). I think folks also have a "spread" on their particular number that is the extent to which they will stretch in either direction (given the situation or partner, etc.).

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There actually are existing social studies to this effect. I wish I could remember the names...

Suffice it to say that you are on the right track.

(I hope everyone is sufficiently impressed that I left alone the opportunity to pontificate on "deviation" as a term, based on a Foucauldian analysis of deviance and biopolitics...)

On a scale of one to ten, from I am ecstatic with my assigned gender (either male or female), to I am revolted with my assigned gender. I argue that a majority of males belong in the 3 to 7 value of such a scale, and a majority of females belong in the 1 to 5 value of the scale, with sufficient overlapping of such a grading system.

Allowing that such a system, like most label making systems, exists as just a point in time. and we as sentient beings are free to redefine ourselves at any future event.

Allowing that a lable can be affixed to a persons life, after it is over, providing a lifetime of evaluation.

So that any point of time we can span a rather large value range.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Heplby

There actually are existing social studies to this effect. I wish I could remember the names...

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There are two scales: Kinsey's Sexual Orientation Scale and Benjamin's Gender Scale. I don't know if they are generally accepted to be accurate. Here is a summary of both scales and how they interact.

I really appricate the feed back, and feel that everyone has contributed properly and politely. I enjoy reading how the different personalities come out in the responses. Only after talking to other CD'rs, and finding out the animosity at club's that can happen, was I sparked to read more in depth. I know that in my past I tried to justify what i did, without tryning to understand the why, I ended up depressed and anxious, Now that I have accepted my feeling as just being who i am, I have a lot of peace, heck I'm almost off the anti depressants !

When it comes to Gender Scale and what others thing of others, I reminded of Saint Rodney King of Los Angeles who with a quavering voice proclaimed "Can't we all just get along ?"

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

I really appricate the feed back, and feel that everyone has contributed properly and politely. I enjoy reading how the different personalities come out in the responses. Only after talking to other CD'rs, and finding out the animosity at club's that can happen, was I sparked to read more in depth. I know that in my past I tried to justify what i did, without tryning to understand the why, I ended up depressed and anxious, Now that I have accepted my feeling as just being who i am, I have a lot of peace, heck I'm almost off the anti depressants !

When it comes to Gender Scale and what others thing of others, I reminded of Saint Rodney King of Los Angeles who with a quavering voice proclaimed "Can't we all just get along ?"

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

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I can tell you that I have been in clubs in Kansas City, Omaha, LA, Chicago, Dallas and others places to numerous to mention. There will always be cliques, but the girls I spend time with don't label like that. We don't stand at the bar and go ohhhh shes cute but she looks like a CD we are not going to talk with her. I have friends from all corners of the US that run the spectrum darling.

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

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Yup, it is. But ime, the cliquishness isn't altogether insurmountable. Here are some tips:

• If you hang out often and long enough, they get to know you and warm up considerably. But you have to accept the fact that some people you're never gonna reach.
• Ime the people in the lesbian bars, which all seem to attract at least a few gay guys, are generally friendlier and more gracious than the crowd at the gay bars.
• In all the clubs, winning over the bartenders is key. They'll speak up for you, make introductions, pass notes etc. :)
• It really helps to be outgoing and initiate interaction. This hasn't been easy for me cuz I'm shy around strangers, doubly so cuz of insecurity about being CD. Turns out they all thought I was aloof -- and there I sat, just dying for someone to come over and say hi. What a doofus.
• Most of my club outings have been done solo, and I'm nearly always the only TG in the place, but having a friend along seems to melt the ice a bit. I guess it reassures people that I'm not a leper. :D (No offense to lepers.)

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Originally Posted by sherri

Yup, it is. But ime, the cliquishness isn't altogether insurmountable. Here are some tips:

• If you hang out often and long enough, they get to know you and warm up considerably. But you have to accept the fact that some people you're never gonna reach.
• Ime the people in the lesbian bars, which all seem to attract at least a few gay guys, are generally friendlier and more gracious than the crowd at the gay bars.
• In all the clubs, winning over the bartenders is key. They'll speak up for you, make introductions, pass notes etc. :)
• It really helps to be outgoing and initiate interaction. This hasn't been easy for me cuz I'm shy around strangers, doubly so cuz of insecurity about being CD. Turns out they all thought I was aloof -- and there I sat, just dying for someone to come over and say hi. What a doofus.
• Most of my club outings have been done solo, and I'm nearly always the only TG in the place, but having a friend along seems to melt the ice a bit. I guess it reassures people that I'm not a leper. :D (No offense to lepers.)

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That's funny.. people think you are aloof because you are insecure,people think that I am aloof because I am more of a right in your face type. sometimes we just can win for losing huh? LOL

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

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We live in a small town. We've gone out quite a bit to clubs and it does seem cliquish. But that's because the average age is 20-30 single-something and groups of friends do tend to hang out together. There seems to be a mix of friends within the smaller groups (lesbians, gays, & straights). There are also other groups of lesbians and gays who seem to keep more to themselves but I don't think they do this because they are snobbish or prejudiced towards CDs ... they are just there to have fun with their friends. I never got the impression any of these people would be unfriendly towards us. I'm sure that if we struck up conversations they'd talk to us, but the music is loud and it is hard to do this. Other than the DQs, my SO is usually the only TG there. The DQs are always very friendly, but it is business for them and they are friendly to everyone. The staff is always very friendly as well. They do tend to remember us and I don't know if this is because we are such a striking couple :D or because we are in a different age range than most of the others.

It's been so long since I've been into the bar & club scene that I can't remember if I ever did make friends when I went all those years ago. I lived in a larger city and I don't remember the clubs I went to being cliquish ... just people drinking and dancing and maybe hoping to get lucky. So I'm sure that outside of the cliques, there are a still some people who are there to ... um, make friends.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

There are also other groups of lesbians and gays who seem to keep more to themselves but I don't think they do this because they are snobbish or prejudiced towards CDs ... they are just there to have fun with their friends. I never got the impression any of these people would be unfriendly towards us. I'm sure that if we struck up conversations they'd talk to us ...

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Very good point, 'specially at the lesbian clubs (ime some gay cliques can be kinda hardass -- no pun intended :o). I always try to keep an eye peeled to break the ice here and there. It might amount to nothing more than an introductory hug and hello, or maybe have a drink, or wind up being invited to the table for the evening. Even if I don't click with the clique, that doesn't mean there are any ill feelings either way. Some welcome company, some don't. One thing I've definitely noticed is that there seems to be a snowball effect -- hitting it off with one bunch seems to loosen up other people, and over a period of time you can find yourself on pleasant terms with many of the regulars.

Let me share an anecdote: My last outing I was to meet my little clique at the club, but I arrived a little early so after schmoozing with the owner and the bartender a bit I sat at the bar watching people drift in. There was a gay couple there that I had seen many times but they had never given me the time of day even though we have some acquaintances in common, so I just assumed they were maybe a little cool toward CDs. Well, apropos of nothing they walked over to where I was seated, introduced themselves and began to go on and on about how glad they were to meet me, all the nice things they've heard about me, how attractive I am and how nice I always look, do you know so-and-so, and come over and sit with us. I mean, they were so nice and so sweet -- well, I doubt I have to tell you how touched I was by their graciousness, and they get all the credit for reaching out.

It's been a long time coming, but I'm just gratified that it's coming.

Sorry I sound so analytical. On a more human note, maybe the problem is there aren't enough CD bars where we can all carry on while looking all squinty eyed at the gays, lesbians and straights walking in. How's that for turning the tables. Ooh ooh can I be a waitress?

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Originally Posted by LaurenB

Sorry I sound so analytical. On a more human note, maybe the problem is there aren't enough CD bars where we can all carry on while looking all squinty eyed at the gays, lesbians and straights walking in. How's that for turning the tables. Ooh ooh can I be a waitress?

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Maybe you should try mainstream bars instead..give the regular folks a chance to hate ya too:heehee:

You... used in the "general" sense

Hmmmmmmm, As much as I would love to, I cant get into this thread, since I'm tied up in my school studies at the moment...:sad:

Hope, I Just wanted to say, you had an excellent post, and was very well put!!!!, :thumbsup:

Kelly, I know it's needless to tell you, but will anyway, I loved your post too!!!:hugs:


Carry on.....LOL

:tongueout