Printable View
Believe me, dear humans, I've been thinking about this since I first heard the term here. And I ran up against this question: Who else but a woman would want to dress as a woman full-time for the rest of her life?
Some of us seem perfectly happy to dress only occasionally, but others--like me--are apparently insatiable. I think it's because we are...well...women, pure and simple.
What do you think, my lovely friends and neighbors?
:) Lallie
I think it's different for different people.
Each person has t find the path that's right for them.
No it's not.
Gretchen, would you care to amplify?
:) Lallie
I'm quite young, so I don't think I can relate nearly as much wisdom as some of the other members on this board, but I'll give it a shot.
There's more to transgendered identity than wanting to dress as a woman 24/7. I can't speak for everyone, but for me dressing isn't even a really big issue. With the exception of a few occasions, what I wear isn't a big factor on exploring my identity (I worry about my hair more than clothes, but that's a different matter all together...) Understanding is the big factor. I understand and accept my female side, and it's a lot bigger than a desire to dress like a woman. The understanding of your female side is going to be there whether you're in a t-shirt and boys jeans or a fancy gown. Trying to keep life and your dreams into the new world you're exploring is the real challenge with transsexuality, not how often you desire to dress like a woman.
Hope I didn't come across as offensive, I'm just trying to relate my own perspective on the issue.
Everyone's reasons can very on why they dress as you put it like a woman , but women do not want to dress as a woman (in our terms) all the times so it is not quite that simple.
Wanting to dress like a woman all the time does not make you a transsexual and the pink fog is more like a child being let loose in a toy shop more than a child wanting to be a toy .
Wanting to look like a woman does not necessarily equate to wanting to be one.:)
Hi.
You may have female tendencies . & can dress as a female / woman yet really you need to grow as a woman & that is part of being a woman .& for many women itrs about giving birth . is that a part of your thinking how real is a woman ,
Its not about clothes make up shoes or even the look, need i say more .
If you are a female / woman you are born with that part of you that says , i am a female / woman , not i think i am . its i know i am . no doughts , no may be s no i think . i knew from age 10 on ,
Hence i live as one & have done for just over 12 years . thats about self acceptance & being accepted by others,
The first part of that may be so for some yet i know some men dress as a female / woman & there is nothing about them that says female or woman & the fact is they are not or ever will be women & when i have talked to them they are hard wired male they do not understand what a woman is or can relate to us who are women .
Iv had 50 years of trying to relate with men & that never worked , I understand some things about men, not relate in a way of being a male or man, ... as a man ...
Im a woman inspite of womens clothes they do not change me, im a woman regardless of any clothes no matter what they look like .
I wear them only because i like them & i id with women because i dont id with men ,
As a ?? some women dont dress as how we are percived as women on the grounds of . is this only western thinking or fashon, & when you look at some countys thier dress code is or was the same. ( gray green ). because they were told what to wear .
...noeleena...
It is a fair question, and while there are those who start down the TS path as members of the CD community, that is hardly the only path. There are lots of reasons for people to cross dress, though your question about those who want to do it full time is compelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
The real truth is that there is no test or single thing anyone can point to that would define one as TS or not... So while your question IS interesting, and informative, and I think helpful, it is not... diagnostically useful.
And I bet it is enlightening for your particular journey.
Thank you all for your interesting comments. I recognize that males who wear women's clothes for fetishistic and/or recreational purposes are probably not TS; and that dressing in women's clothes is not the total thing for a TS person; but it seems likely to me that someone who dresses 24/7, or would like to, is female-identified, i.e. transsexual, whether pre-op, post-op or non-op.
But I could easily be wrong, as I have been so many times.
:heehee: Lallie
Good question ... I've been dressing fairly androgenously now for over 12 years (started hormones then) and now I don't even think of it as dressing like a woman. I pretty well have to wear a top (tee or cami) and then its shorts in this hot weather ...just like all the other girls out there ! I haven't "glammed" up since Xmas ,that is a dress and heels for a big night out. Make-up is very minimal ..if I remember ..again ..not so much in the summer . SO... I don't really get "dressed up" --just dressed:heehee:
I'm with you there. If you need to dress 24/7 there's a very good chance you want to be a woman. I understand there are other answers but the probabilty is pretty good. Note that wanting to be one does not necessarily equate becoming one -many cd's just can't or don't want to face that fact.
I have to disagree with you on one point - years do not make wisdom! What you have said shows wisdom regardless of whether or not I am old enough to be your mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraforming
You are not offensive, you have a perspective that is perfectly valid and I am sure that I am not alone in appreciating that.
I can say that having lived through the process of transition life becomes NORMAL. There is NO excitment of to get dressed as a woman because you are a woman. You wear clothing that of which is NORMAL.
It is all NORMAL. You can see that I said NORMAL a few times and there is a reason I did that. Remember the old line "be careful what ya wish for"?
I can only say that what you dream about could become true and then all of a sudden VERY NORMAL.
Katie
I love to wear women's clothing and have sometimes done it at times when it is not prudent, but I don't want to be a woman. The pink fog hits but I'm not transexual, maybe transgendered.
Well personally it kinda comes and goes. As far as wanting to be dressed up. Like every morning when i'm on the bus to work and see the other girls it comes LOL. Maybe it's not quite like that but fairly close to it. I think i want to be a woman. But i'm very unclear on it. I do now realize that in order to know i have to be at a place where im willing to be rejected by everything. I know that with the roadblocks in my way currently i can't really answer myself honestly. Still working on that.
Here's a follow-up question: just how feminine is a woman?
The answer, of course, is which woman, and what does she feel like at the moment?
I don't have to be in a gown, stockings and stilettos all the time (almost never in fact), and there are many times when I completely lack the energy or desire to go beyond throwing on the kind of stretched-out schmatte and old shoes that women wear when they feel the same way.
The only difference is that I have to work a little harder to look like hell.
I guess this is my way of saying it's not about the clothes...it's about the clothes and everything else, and sometimes the clothes come last.
I'd take it, Kate! I'd sacrifice the thrill of fantasy for the humdrum of feeling at home in my body and my role. I hear your wistfulness, though, and I pay you the respect you've earned by walking the walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
:) Lallie
i find that i dont wear any mens clothes any more.dont even own much either.im perfectly happy going the rest of my life in womans attire.i wear acrilique nails full time,and makeup every day.who knows maybe some day ill live full time as a woman.im not too far from it now.so maybe im a little bit transexual,but im not removing any of my bits.implants maybe someday,but for now im ok with who i am.
For me, the Pink Fog is a state I've been in where my desire to dress overrides almost everything else in my life. I thought about it all day until the opportunity to dress arose. My interest in life and connection with others and career all were secondary to my desire to dress or fantasizing about being or looking like a woman. I would doubt this indicates transsexuality. I would assume there is something deeper going on in the latter case and what I'm talking about almost represents an addicted state. Don't know if this helps shed any light on the subject or not but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
You are not offensive at all, and you do not need to apologize for who you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraforming
I will whole heartedly agree with you that dressing does not need to be a significant part of a TS life, and that there is no excitement in it; that the TS life is about self understanding and to be understood and related to as female by others, to move socially in the world as female. For me that is really the heart of the thing, or at least that is a big part of the diagnostic criteria I use with myself.
Which is essentially what the OP is talking about. The OP asks about folks who "CD" 24/7. These are people who obviously wish to engage the world and be understood by others as female. They may or may not lack the self understanding, but seriously, who do they suppose they are fooling? Being TS is not some sort of exclusive club, and it dose not require surgery to join.
While I would never tell a girl she was TS, if I knew someone who undergoing their own little RLE w/o hormones I might wonder to myself.
Hello LA Woman!
Yes, we are transgendered, but no we are not women. Unlike women, I love to be with women, crave attention from women and admire women. I also (maybe I'm just a lesbian) love having sex with a woman. I also like being a man. I like doing manly things, eating cold pizza, turning wrenches, driving fast cars, and doing physical things. I would not want to change into a woman if I could. That said, I do every now and again want to wear womens clothes all day every day. The "pink fogs" hits and I buy several trendy outfits and wear them as much as I can get away with. So I say I'm transgendered, but definitely not a woman.
Olivia, you may feel different in a few years. Once dressing no longer gave me erotic excitement but rather, profound comfort, it became clear to me that something more radical was going on in my life. But everyone's different!Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia2
:) Lallie
Hope, thank you for contributing your expertise and clarifying the point I was making rather clumsily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
:) Lallie
Charlie, I see myself as a lesbian as well. Although, as I have said on another thread, if I were to undergo HRT and GRS, I might learn to understand why men appeal to most women.
Beyond that, there is nothing exclusively manly about any of the activities you mentioned, although men currently outnumber women in doing them. I see myself as essentially female, but I like to tinker and build things, and I like cars and airplanes and motorcycles. And so does my Aunt Flossie. (Well, that's a lie, I admit.)
What it boils down to is your root identity, Charlie, and if holding onto the male is in there, then I agree you are not TS.
:) Lallie
pink fog is not an indication of being a transexual.
You know a lot more than I do, Carol, but it started that way for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinoakland
:) Lallie
Pink fog is not a sign of TS'ness.
As Kate said, after a while it just becomes normal.
Me, I wear women's clothes every day. I ain't talking about a stupid ball gown or cheerleader outfit, but just women's shorts or slacks and a pretty tee or blouse.
Let me tell ya how bad it can get - OK today I am kind of down, come time to get ready for class I thought - "Well I don't really feel focused, plus there ain't no way in G.D. hell I am gonna get up, do my hair, my makeup, putting on a stupid bra and get pretty just to go to class."
I am to the point of hating to dress up. Trying to live as a woman is a lot of work. I wish like hell I could throw away this bag of makeup and still look like a woman without it.
At one time I was in the pink fog myself, years ago. Oh how I loved dressing as Erin, but once you find yourself having to do all that crap just to present as your chosen gender, it becomes work. I have NO pink fog left.
Kind of funny I guess, wanting to be a woman yet hating the process of presenting as such. So many CD's wish they could live full time doing the skirts, pantyhose, makeup, long hair, heels...
Trust me, when a hobby becomes everyday life, the fun vanishes quickly.
I don't wish to deny anybody's personal road to self-realisation and I dare say that a number of us who had been hiding from our true nature can point to episodes of Pink Fog when we first admitted that we like to cross-dress. But I have to agree that pink fog is not an indication that we are TS, it is an indication that we have become temporarily obsessed. Plenty of CD's who will never be TS can point to episodes of the fog.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALadyYou know a lot more than I do, Carol, but it started that way for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinoakland
Agreed. From my own experience and from those I've read about, the pink fog tends to dissipate just as quickly as it appears. Such desires are pretty common to the MtF side of the transgendered community. I guess the difference is when it does dissipate and you're no longer in the mood to put up with going all out with your appearance, do you sink back into male mode, or do you seek a comfortable female state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
So in essence, while the pink fog really brings out a lot more femininity out of us, the state is temporary. It's not really about femininity at all really, as there are tomboys amongst us that are women just like the rest.
I agree! While I'm unable to go out en femme very often I think about it several time a day.
Hugs,
Roni L.
Does being TS mean I should never need to dress, because it's not about the clothes, but something inside? If so, what is RLE all about--in fact, what is TS all about--if one doesn't look or act any different from the average male? If being TS only meant the way you felt deep within, why bother with the externals at all?
It's because the externals are gender signifiers, and they reinforce one's own gender consciousness as well as influence the way others behave toward us. The clothes, the accessories, the hair, the makeup--they all perform this dual function.
Plus, they're pretty and soft, so they make us feel pretty and soft, which I submit is a value not limited to TS folk.
I think there's a false dichotomy between CD and TS. Many times I've read posts that say, "For years I thought I was CD, but lately I feel more and more TS." Sometimes I think it just depends on the way the light happens to hit you.
No matter how macho you are half the time, there's something pretty girly about a guy who likes to wear dresses. And I think that's great!
I'm not saying that everybody is the same, but that we have enough in common to suggest that we're not entirely different--and that the Pink Fog can actually wake us to who we really are.
:) Lallie
You are who you are. Some girls refuse to go out without doing hours worth of hair and makeup, that's fine for them. Some girls put their hair up in a ponytail and wear a t-shirt and jeans out with little to no makeup, that's fine too. In both cases though, the presentation is still as a female. That's why the desire to dress and transsexuality are mutually exclusive. There's not really an all or nothing case. RLE is about functioning in society, whether it's like a tomboy or like a girly girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
They can give reinforcement to your gender consciousness, but whether you're in a fancy ball gown or butt naked, you're still a girl.Quote:
It's because the externals are gender signifiers, and they reinforce one's own gender consciousness as well as influence the way others behave toward us. The clothes, the accessories, the hair, the makeup--they all perform this dual function.
Life is a journey. Not everyone makes the realization from their earliest years that something is direly wrong with how they are being taught to live in society. Some people discover that later on in life. However, just because there are a lot of people who make their realization through crossdressing doesn't really remove a barrier between the two groups. There are a huge number of reasons that people crossdress, one of them being that the person in question is actually transgendered. However, there is still a huge difference between wearing the clothes of the opposite sex, and feeling displacement in society because you feel that you are a member of the opposite sex. They may seem sort of close, but they are worlds apart.Quote:
I think there's a false dichotomy between CD and TS. Many times I've read posts that say, "For years I thought I was CD, but lately I feel more and more TS." Sometimes I think it just depends on the way the light happens to hit you.
Of course, that's the reason the transgendered community is truly a community. Our problems are drastically different from one group to the next, but overall we're facing the issue of fighting established norms of how someone of a certain gender should act.Quote:
I'm not saying that everybody is the same, but that we have enough in common to suggest that we're not entirely different--and that the Pink Fog can actually wake us to who we really are.
:) Lallie
The pink fog is kind of a blissful state. I do agree that it's possible that it can put on the path to realizing who you are, but I don't think that's a very common case because of how temporary it is. I can't speak for everyone, but truly understanding that I was a girl wasn't the byproduct of a blissful moment, rather it was a daunting realization I had made after a lot of soul searching. It made me understand that there was a long and difficult road ahead, which isn't something I ever felt from the fog.
"The presentation is still as a female." That was my point, or one of them, Terra, but I'm going away for several days so I won't be able to engage you again until next week.
:) Lallie
PS: Your avatar is very girly.
I apologise in advance that this will be a long post, but I thought that Lallie's points deserved to be addressed seriously. If you would prefer to skip to the next post in the thread, rather than wade through my arguments, please feel free to do so.
I dress, but in some ways I feel a little bit of a fraud being here because I no longer cross-dress since I am a woman 24/7.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
RLE is about proving (first to myself, then to others) that I can function in society as the woman that I have always known myself to be even if I have only recently admitted that to myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
I have yet to meet an MtF TS who looked or acted anything like the average male - we are not male, we are women in the wrong body.
It is not just about feelings, it is about who we are. What differentiates us from the average MtF CD is that we are women, the CD's want to present as women then go back to being men.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
I have no problem with someone who is CD but not TS - in fact I actively support some. One of the reasons why I joined an LGBT activist organisation is to try to help make things better for both CD's and TS's, but that does not make the conditions interchangeable.
You are right that the reasons why women wear women's clothes have a lot in common with why a man might wear women's clothes, but that does not make an MtF CD stop being a man. I went to work yesterday in jeans and a tee shirt and that did not turn me into a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
A lot of us have spent a long time hiding from ourselves, so for a while we grudgingly admit that we are cross-dressers and hope that it will stop there. Gradually, as we take on more and more of the presentation of who we really are, we find it harder to deny that we are in fact already women, but suffering from a birth defect - we got the wrong body!Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
So do I, it just doesn't apply to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
Then we can agree on that - we do have things in common.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
It has been my experience of Pink Fog that rather than awakening me to who I really am, it served to distract me from considering the consequences of what I wanted to do under its influence. That is why I describe Pink Fog as an obsession rather than a reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
None of what I have written is intended in any way to detract from anybody else's experiences.
I agree it is different for everyone. Personally the female clothing is only saying that I am dressed the way I feel inside. it is not a sexual thing at all. I am happy in female jeans as well as a formal dress.
From the top of the page:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
*** Welcome to Crossdressers.Com ***
*** The #1 Community for Crossdressers, the Transgendered, Transsexuals, their Loved Ones and Friends ***
Which part makes you a fraud?
If you are always thinking about it, it seems a logical argument that it is something you want to be. I dont think I want to go down tht road but sometimes when I am stuck thinking about it over and over, it makes me wonder............
Thank you, Sue. Now why didn't I think of that before I opened my big mouth?Quote:
Originally Posted by SueFrom the top of the page:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
*** Welcome to Crossdressers.Com ***
*** The #1 Community for Crossdressers, the Transgendered, Transsexuals, their Loved Ones and Friends ***
Which part makes you a fraud?
As I understand transsexualism, the individual has great gender dysphoria. It's not a matter of "wanting" to be a woman, or just dressing like a woman. It's the fact that you Are a woman and you were born into the wrong gender, and that is Very distressing.
I think some crossdressers may experience this, but I think for many transsexuals, it's not like they wake up one day and go, "Damn, I want to dress like a woman 24/7." It's that they feel each and everyday as if they weren't in the right gender.
Tell me if I'm wrong. Or thoughts/opinions. I always think about this topic from time to time.
:hugs:
well i am a man. i was born with 5-5-5-5-1.
i like girls. only.
i love to look like a girl.
i would love to try to live (24-7) as a girl for a time. but peter and the stones remain.
i have no need to change my body, other than what i can do to look more like a girl, with out doing any surgery. i do have a medical contd were doing away with the "T" and adding "E". can be done for a other medical reason.
but some of the benefits just would not go over very good in "his" life.
i love the pink fog. just need control at times. but no life/body changes for me. if i did i would be a lesbian.
.
I've also often wondered what is the difference between a FT CD and a non-op TS. I've even asked several times in the M2F, but no one ever answers! :straightface:
In fact, I may even start a thread about this. It's a slightly different way to ask the question than here. :)
I don't think pink fog has anything to do with it. There are different degrees and durations of pink fog.
I define pink fog as a single-mindedness about presenting femme, to the exclusion of loved ones' feelings or perhaps to other life responsibilities, but for CDs only. This wouldn't apply to TSs, since their focus would naturally be about working towards permanently matching their outsides to their insides. And this is not an easy path to take.
I wondered how the Pink Fog related to transsexualism because it seems that many here have experienced it before engaging in deep introspection and realizing they were actually TS. I feel this is true in my situation. Although I felt for many years that crossdressing was not enough for me, I didn't know where I fit in until I had this resource as a reality check.
There seems to be a consensus that TS folk no longer dress for sexual pleasure or the thrill of impersonating a woman in public, but seek to fulfill as much as possible and with the least amount of fuss their true identity and role.
In order to make this transition as comfortable as possible, as well as by preference, almost all the TS women here choose to dress in undeniably female fashion, rather than in men's underwear and jeans, a man's shirt and men's shoes, while wearing a crewcut.
TS women who cannot undertake RLE must find their own coping strategies. Mine includes dressing whenever I can, but always interacting with others as the woman I really am.
:) Lallie
It's another example of someone wanting to know that others feel the same way that she does. Some do, some don't. While I have a lot of female traits, I have male ones as well. The only reason I would want to have been a woman is because it would have fit with everything else in my life better than being a man has. But simply changing myself from being a big homely man to being a big homely woman wouldn't really address the problems that caused all of this. Not to mention, that I'm not attracted to men at all, so I would just wind up being a lonely woman instead of a lonely man.Quote:
I think it's because we are...well...women, pure and simple.
Intriguing questions in this thread :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
Here is a point, subtle but important. Yes, we all have things in common, and you could view the space between CD and TS as a continuum -- but I do not think you can slide from one to the other. Between CD and TS, I believe that there are as many differences as there are similarities. Maybe they are on parallel tracks, but not the same "line". It sounds like you are saying that the "Pink Fog" can "wake up" any CD to a find they are TS. Of course, there are many TS folks who cross dress for a time to try and deal with their issues, but it is more like Methadone than anything else. They don't convert at a certain point. Obviously, I feel that the PF term refers to something that CD's experience some times, not a thing generic to all TG folks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StaceyJane
That's it in a nutshell! :)
Although I think I understand what you are saying, and I believe it is true that you don't suddenly become Transsexual, I do believe that a number of us saw ourselves as cross-dressers before becoming aware / admitting to ourselves that we are in fact TS.Quote:
Originally Posted by CharleneT
If I look back over my posts in this forum, they show that I have not always admitted to myself that I am TS, so to a certain extent there was a point where I converted from CD to TS.
I'm not sure I would agree with your methadone analogy, but might perhaps express it that a TS who tries to deal with what's going on by simply cross-dressing is akin to trying to cure a broken arm with not much more than a sticking plaster. It might help a little, but not much.
Yes indeed, there are many triggers that first start to clue us in. As well, it takes a while to admit it to yourself, and certainly there is a tipping point. I was trying to express that the act of CD'ing doesn't convert a person. My case was a long time to understanding and much longer to deal with it. I definitely did some CD'ing ;) The analogy was probably a little too strong. It is hard to express in words (for me at least).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
I wouldn't say that we are women, but we definitely one part woman. We are the blending of 2 sexes into the "IT" crowd. We differ even among ourselves as we are all at different places along the spectrum.
All I know is that I definitely enjoy being Michelle.