Credit and Blame

There have been many discussions here about coming out to wives and girlfriends. Many who have do so have reported that their marriage not only survived, but is stronger than ever. Not just because of the honesty and trust factor, but because crossdressing can inject some excitement in the bedroom and also can help relieve anxiety and stress in the cd (when my SO's happy, I'm happy). Many folks CREDIT crossdressing for a better relationhip.

There's an active thread "Dressing and Divorce" discussing whether dressing is ever the root cause of divorce. Several have said that their marriage ended because of crossdressing. Sure, all marriage have some (probably many) areas of contention (finances, infidelity, religion, etc) that can contribute to or themselves cause a divorce. Repair of broken marriages can and does happen, but sometimes there is something that in itself is a deal-breaker (like infidelity) and the marriage ends. Some of us know that crossdressing was that deal-breaker in our marriage, but in spite of our testimony, others here deny that crossdressing can be the BLAME for a breakup, but only a contributing factor, saying things like "if you dig deeper" or "some day you'll look back and see...". As if they know more about what ended the marriage than the principals. It's denial. Crossdressing is being protected. It must be something else, other causes.

As crossdressers, are we quick to CREDIT crossdressing for good things that happen in our relationships, but slow to BLAME crossdressing for bad? That is my observation.

Your thoughts?

I blame cross-dressing for the angst I feel every day. I mean I can't dress as I would prefer due to perceived consequences such as losing my wife, losing my job, losing social status, losing financial status, etc. This creates in me a dichotomy of personalities. My uber male persona, and my subjugated female persona.

Thus is my world.

Well, Nicole, my opinion, for what it's worth, is that generally we are too quick to blame "things" for our troubles. Let me give you an example... A person takes up the game of golf. They spend every spare moment practicing the game, studying the game, watching the game, playing the game, etc. Their partner begins to feel resentful about the amount of time spent away from home, the money being spent, and so on. The partner becomes more and more resentful and shut our of their life together. They eventually split. Was golf the root cause of the breakup? I would say no. It was the person's behavior that caused the demise of the relationship. It could have just as easily been auto racing, bird watching, stamp collecting, or any one or combination of thousands of activities. I have always contended that if two people are committed to one another then they can work through anything. I base this on nearly 42 years of actual "field experience."

Holly, THAT is a great example of where the blame/fault/reason for a split to occur.. so yes, it can be dressing..but other times it can be a mix of items.

I want to offer another view to go with the others... in relations to two female friends, all is well for years with great times, etc.. then one day, woman #1 makes a pass at woman #2 as she opens up about her love/interest for women (bi or les). Woman #2 cannot handle that as its not part of her lifestlye/desires. So this wedge drives distance or something that causes the friendship to be hurt or end.

So taking that in mind, so hubby walks in 'dressed' to the T :) and now a wife could see this in the same manner, that this could be similiar to a girl/girl situation and be totally turned off by it. Again, this would be the start of the wedge...

Crossdressing may not be the foundation of a break up, but its one that can cause the most damage so it can be the loudest VOICED as it is a strong weapon for some to destroy another, especially emotionally.

A reminder, these are my views and opinions only.. :)

Hugs,
Marissa

Funny I don't give crossdressing any credit...

I blame it for screwing up my life... Though I have been able to balance it and the rest of my life successfully so far, life would be so much more simple if I didn't have to do this!!! I'd totally be happy staying in one gender or the other.. Pick one... I'm not choosie!!

And I blame crossdressing for nearly wrecking my marriage... I'm still trying to recover the trust lost on the day she found out 3+ years ago.. (4+??). But I know by her comment the other day I will never get back to the same point in time. Never!! She said "your more dishonest than I am". Talking about using the daughters phone number when checking out at a drug store so she get the what ever bonus points on her card!!
Just because I have accepted who I am or what I've become and embrace it as a lifestyle doesn't mean I think its the greatest thing on earth.... I have a brain tumor that I have accepted and have to take drugs to keep it in check... One of the drugs has an amazing impact on my heart rate and blood pressure and I totally accept that but I wish I didn't have to deal with that either...

I deal with the cards that are dealt me in as positive way as I can... But I don't credit crossdressing with anything other than making my life way way way more complicated than it should be...

I think your observation is simply human nature and is not unique to crossdressing. A person who wants to engage in a particular behavior will be quick to recognize the positive consequences of the behavior (which support continuing the behavior) and slow to recognize the negative consequences (which support discontinuing the behavior). For example, a partner in a relationship who wants to spend a lot of time playing golf would naturally point to the positive aspects of playing golf and downplay the negative aspects. Crossdressing (and golfing) is a self-indulgent behavior and the crossdresser (or golfer) needs to be the primary advocate of the behavior in order to continue it. Depending on the level of acceptance of their SO, crossdressers in relationships may need to vigorously advocate and defend their crossdressing behavior. It would be counterproductive to identify the negative consequences of crossdressing.

I couldn't agree more Nicole and thanx for the thread.

To give credence to your thoughts, i'll offer up this:
As me and my ex-wife were dealing with the demise of our marriage, we put out the things that had gone wrong. I was at the time nearing my bottom from alcoholism, i was not thrilled with the thought of starting a family, and quite frankly, we were not enjoying the type of intimacy we had before.
All in themselves good reasons to seek out a counselor and work on the issues, which i asked that we do. I promised to check into rehab and get sober.
She had a few years before found some of my stash, and i confessed to being a CDer, which at the time nearly ruined the marriage. I purged and eventually life got back to some semblance of normalcy.
So, after she had begun seeing a counselor to deal with the issues of the broken marriage, we sat down to discuss whether there was any hope. Her final words on the issue was "while i trust that you can beat alcohol, and we can fix the other issues in our marriage, after speaking with a counselor, i have learned that CDers never stop being what they are. That is something that repulses me and i cannot trust you because of that. I want a divorce".

Now, if i were to put on the ol' rose colored glasses, i could say that these other issues were the root cause, but today i am one year sober, and a much better person. One who could be a good husband, provided i have a woman who could love me unconditionally, CDer or not.

Anyone can paint it all nice and pretty if it makes them feel better about themselves, slice it and dice it any way that works for you, but ultimately......

No doubt some will point out that the main issue was one of trust, as she had said in her final words to me on the issue, but remember folks, one is the effect and one is the cause.

mj (Cassie)

I haven't experienced a break-up with CDing to 'blame it on' (yet), so I can't imagine really how such a thing must feel.

However, I have already made up my mind that if my future girlfriend can't take me as a whole, she merely isn't worth the time. This is of course, much harder for those who are married for years... But that's my vision on it.
If a girl can't accept Roxanne, the 'normal' me will move on. That's why I immediately tell a girl I like about my crossdressing within the first few weeks I know her (I tend to meet a lot of new people). It's much easier to cope with it that way... If she can't accept it, no harm is done and I will simply move on.

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Originally Posted by MsMjSerene

So, after she had begun seeing a counselor to deal with the issues of the broken marriage, we sat down to discuss whether there was any hope. Her final words on the issue was "while i trust that you can beat alcohol, and we can fix the other issues in our marriage, after speaking with a counselor, i have learned that CDers never stop being what they are. That is something that repulses me and i cannot trust you because of that. I want a divorce".

Now, if i were to put on the ol' rose colored glasses, i could say that these other issues were the root cause, but today i am one year sober, and a much better person. One who could be a good husband, provided i have a woman who could love me unconditionally, CDer or not.

mj (Cassie)

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OK, I'll bite. My view as one who is adamant that CDing is, at most, a contributing factor ...

MJ, like CDing, alcoholism NEVER goes away. All alcoholics recognize this, especially when they continue, as you surely do, to refer to themselves as "recovering alcoholics" for the rest of their lives. Present continuous tense ...

You chose to stop drinking. Why? Presumably because you realised that it was causing both you and your loved ones immense harm.

Should you/could you choose to stop CDing? Cold turkey?
Does it cause both you and your loved ones immense harm?
Can you imagine any of us referring to ourselves in a gathering of people perhaps known as CDers anonymous, as a "recovering CDer"?

Alcoholism is recognized as a disease. Our genes have something to do with it, apparently. There are psychologists who have tried to get CDing listed as a disease and these efforts have met with strong resistance by CDers. Why?

Because we know that CDing is not a disease! It actually harms no-one, if you think about it. We are condemned because of prejudice, ignorance, intolerance, lack of love for one's fellow human beings.

People look at groups such as goths, emos, rappers etc today and recognize them for what they are ... people with similar outlooks on life. They are accepted; we are not!

Getting back to your marriage ... did the counsellor point out to your wife that alcoholism never goes away? That day by day, you would be fighting that particular demon? She trusts that you can beat alcoholism, could she not have said that she trusts you to beat the demon of CDing as well?

I put it to you, mj, that your wife's inability to treat your CDing in exactly the same way as your alcoholism points to a deeper problem, which has nothing to do with your CDing and everything to do with her lack of love and respect for you as a person!

And to be fair to your wife, I suggest that your lack of interest in starting a family, mentioned in your post, was an entirely separate but way more important issue in the breakdown of your marriage. You, too, did not love and respect her as you should have."

Now before everyone starts jumping up and down here, let me be honest and say that in both my relationship break-ups, I have had to take a long, hard look at my self and acknowledge that each of them could have been salvaged, had I shown greater love and respect for the SO concerned. I know what I am taliking about. I have been forced to remove a huge plank from my eye!

To sum up, your last sentence quoted above is absolutely correct!

I trust that you will, in time, be able to find and give unconditional love.

a thought occured to me that there may be some subconscious things going on in a marriage with a cder. Here's my example and it may be all wet but.....
The current idea of gay marriage by those who wish it , and those who vociferously oppose it provides the example. The newspapers report that there is a great surge of liberalism across the land and most people are in favor of gay mariage. Has anyone here ever been polled? I haven't, I consider myself liberal on many issues but in this particular case, not gay marriage. People are accepting of the gay lifestyle, that is true, but by the backlash to gay marriage law changes, the subconscious is working very hard. What does this have to do with cders?
If a marriage includes a wife who is at heart a down to earth religious person, it may be that her cd'ing husband is seen as a woman, and a wife , in her mind (subconsciously), might see this as "gay marriage"--a lesbian marriage of sorts and that is repugnant to her, and thus since it will never go away, she must. It may be unconscious but the ideas may be there. I wouldn't use this argument, however, for the extremes of cd fetishism, but certainly for the closeted gay cross dressing husband , this is double ammunition for any wife.
just my thoughts, and they may not be worth you know what....

Thank you for your thoughts Clayfish.
At the risk of turning this into a discussion of alcoholism or any other ISM for that matter, i will offer this. Yes it is a disease, but one that is highly treatable, as i choose to do with the program of AA. In that regards, you are reaching a bit with the "NEVER goes away", and in my particular case i am not too overly preoccupied with any demons on a daily basis. You were also reaching some, with the "immense harm" bit, although mileage does vary for each individual. At any rate, that was quite a dissertation you gave.
Just for the record, she was a heavy drinker and major enabler as well, so be careful in how many eggs you put in that basket.

As for the matter of children...well her interest in having kids was usually an up and down cycle of yes i do, no i don't, and she was well aware i was sterile. In fact, her common refrain was, "we can adopt, just as soon as i get another raise and promotion", which somewhat deflates that argument.

But i digress, i think what Nicole was getting at and i was trying to further explain (apparently weakly), was that we see two camps here:

1. Effectually based, in other words....... trust, respect, love.
To borrow from you, (sorry, not good with the qouting thingy...lol)
"has nothing to do with your CDing and everything to do with her lack of love and respect for you as a person"!
My point being that this lack of respect came about largely and at the end, as a RESULT from my CDing. Hence her use of the term "repulses" me.
2. Causally based, in other words....well the ones she used when she caught me aren't fit for stating here, so suffice it to say, this is self explanatory.

Whether we choose the chicken or the egg in this debate, as Nicole stated and i concur with, is a matter of denial for some.

Sorry for this, but since humor is my savior and grace, i keep going back to the old comedic standard......."doc, it hurts when i do this"...."well, don't do that".

mj (Cassie)

I give crossdressing credit for giving me a more feminine perspective on things. I am a more sensitive person now that my wife knows.

Interesting response, Cassie. Especially as more information comes to light. Let me continue the process ...

For the record, I disgree that I am over-reaching when I say that the craving for alcohol never goes away, or that the urge to CD never goes away. My brother is an alcoholic. I am a CDer. I speak from experience as well as from what I have read. But that is incidental ...

Thanking back on my marriage, effectually based, to use your terminology ... did my wife fall out of love with me because of my CDing? I don't think so. I just think we were mismatched. Our sexual desires were poles apart. We were not intellectually on the same plane. Our attitudes towards money were vastly different. I think we got married out of need, not love. We were doomed.

Causally based, the last straw for me was the discovery that she was putting money into a separate account in her name (effectively stealing from our marriage). But I was bored, anyway, and when I met the woman of my dreams, I could not resist her allure ...

Do you know the Eagles song "Waiting in the Weeds"? That's the story of my second relationship ... I just watched it slowly fade away. And even though she is with another guy, he will never love her as I do. There is nothing more to say, except perhaps that it is possibly why "The end of every relationship is sowed in the seeds of it's origin." makes so much sense to me.

Enough. We live, we learn ... etc as Alanis Morrisette pointed out.

I understand completely why CDers would take credit for the positives of CDing and downplay the negatives of it. Because the only negative part (as I can see) about CDing is societal perception and unecessary gender role brainwashing. For example, it may be difficult for a woman who is over 7 feet tall to be accepted by society, but if there are things she liked about her own height, who could begrudge her that? When the world gives you negativity you can only fight back with a stronger dose of positivity.

If CDing is a valuable part of who you are it should be embraced. In doing so, you will be happier - and a happier you can only help a marriage. However if you are not honest, true, considerate, reasonable with your finances, or sexually compatible, or if you chose to marry somebody you were pretty sure would never accept CDing in the first place, then those are the real issues.

In my marriage cd'ing wasn't the cause but it was the final straw in a mortally wounded marriage. Cd'ing doesn't get the blame for my divorce because I know the other issues were so much more important.

It's like this...My wife divorced me because I drank a few beers she knew I drank before we were married 20 years ago, she's even drank with me..But now she wants a divorce because of my drinking???? Could it be because your drinking got out of control? You might be an alcholic? Now remove the word drinking and add crossdressing ..
My wife didn't leave me because of drinking she left me because my drinking has moved way beyond her acceptance level!!

The issue with CD'ing seems to me to be with many people, often, one of social acceptance. Many of us find in difficult if not impossible to declare ourselves to the wider world. Why should we think this is not just as difficult for wives to do.
This is in the same way being gay was not so many tears ago, and lets face it, is still with many.For many wives/SO's is there the doubt that they weren't "woman" enough. Why should the man in their lives seek to fill a roll that is theirs? The nagging doubt that true love never existed or this wouldn't have happened to them. A lie perpetrated.
One thing I know is, the reasons are as a varied as stars in the night sky. We're all individuals and we all have our own take on life. So go on then, point to the one who's wrong.

My marriage is definately in trouble, the loss of trust and deceit, lies never telling my wife about my cding. If I had told my wife when dating, things would have been different, I assumed I would no longer want to cd after marriage(wrong) and also thought it would no longer be an issue. But it was a major underlying factor in our marriage. I told my wife approx 1 year ago after 28+ years of marriage and it has become very unpleasant lately although she says she's not ready to give up on our marriage. She said its not the cause of our problems, but I still contend that it is the root cause for the problems in our marriage. Infidelity is not the problem. It has also screwed up my life and as a result my wife's life unfortunately. If she'd have known before marriage, maybe she'd have run the other way and we would have had very different lives, she's angry, rightfully so, for not having been able to make the choice herself.

My marriage HAS grown as a result of my wife finding out. Not because I think so, but because SHE told me so. There was of course the initial shock and all that goes with it, but it gets better for us daily. She has told me that she has learned so much "girl stuff" from me and she enjoys shopping with me. She is a very beautiful size 6 (hell yes im jealous), but her mom wasnt very femme and she grew up not understanding the finer things of her gender. I have strongly influenced here in her makeup, clothes, and other things. She tells me its kinda sad that I know more about this stuff than she does, but that she is glad because she has learned a lot. We even went for our first Pedi the other day together.

Now she had also told me if she had knew about my femme side before we were married, she probably wouldnt have married me.

I can also say that our marriage has been very strong for 18 years now, both of us being faithful and love each other very much. Now if your marriage isnt that great, that is usually when the CD issue becomes an issue.

Thanks to everyone who responded. For some really good insight in response to my question, special thanks to Holly and Marilyn.

For Clayfish and others with whom I still disagree, I still value your comments, and thanks for offering them. The disagreement is that some think that cd-ing is only a contributing factor in breakups, while I believe that cd-ing is so intolerable for some SO's that breakups happen because of it alone. It's the straw that broke the camel's back theory versus the litmus test theory. We can agree to disagree and still have friendly discourse.

Maybe the question should be left to others. After all, we are not impartial observers. Thanks to all.

Nicole,
Thank you for posting this thread, if anything it makes us all think about or value the relationship your in now or the next one that may come along.

I know of the original thread and I stand by how I feel , you just don't leave after 20 plus years of marriage because of crossdressing ( mind you my opinion not saying it doesn't happen ) ,..I can understand leaving because the level you are as a crossdresser has surpassed the one of the S.O.s acception . I can also believe that if you , after 10 years of marriage just sprung it on your S.O.

Its pretty debatable , not knowing the full story behind those who said it was soley crossdressing and there is also two sides to every story.. I will agree..Yes crossdressers wives had left them because of crossdressing after 20 years but finish the rest of the story, was it because the husband dressed to often? Just for the sake of making this a shorter post .Where there boundries crossed or any set? Or did she just wake up after 20 years and said" ewww my God I am married to an xdresser"?

Not me dear, Crossdressing & finding out i'm transsexual & a lesbian is what did it in. That came straight from her mouth. What more can I say.
HUGS

I believe some women are so utterly repulsed by a man in women's clothes(other than Robin Williams), that they would surely want a divorce for that only. Other women , it may be a huge contributing factor. Hey I wonder how many of us, or non cd men, have left a marriage, because the wife always crossdresses, wearing PANTS!?

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Thanks to everyone who responded. For some really good insight in response to my question, special thanks to Holly and Marilyn.

For Clayfish and others with whom I still disagree, I still value your comments, and thanks for offering them. The disagreement is that some think that cd-ing is only a contributing factor in breakups, while I believe that cd-ing is so intolerable for some SO's that breakups happen because of it alone. It's the straw that broke the camel's back theory versus the litmus test theory. We can agree to disagree and still have friendly discourse.

Maybe the question should be left to others. After all, we are not impartial observers. Thanks to all.

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I've read all of the responses here so far, and there is much truth to most of what the previous posters have said, even if there is some disagreement on the finer points of a few of the POV's expressed by them. And again, no two people are alike, and what may work fine in one relationship may be a huge turn-off and deal-breaker in another one.

We often try to equate our cross-dressing obsession as being fundamentally no different from something like golf, running, working out, hunting, fishing, shop-a-holism, or even something benign like collecting stamps or miniature toy soldiers if taken to an extreme. And the reason such activities become addictive is because of all the pleasure-enhancing endorphins being released by the brain in the process. But I would like to submit that our crossdressing goes much deeper than that, and is far more a reflection of what we are, as opposed to what we do.

The urge/need to crossdress is not something we learn like swimming or riding a bicycle, and which we can easily abandon for another activity should we find one that strikes our fancy even more. So in that way, crossdressing is more like alcoholism or gambling and should perhaps more accurately be described as a "disease" or an addiction once it starts to take over our lives, rather than being considered just a weakness or a character flaw that can be overcome by sheer willpower.

Some "golf widows" deal with this type of obsession by taking up the sport themselves as a way of spending more quality time with their mate and by applying the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" philosophy. That can also work in the case of the minority of SO's of crossdressers who are prepared to indulge their partners and participate in that activity themselves because making their mate happy gives them pleasure in turn. But I would suspect that most wives are like mine, who sees "Leslie" primarily as a rival for the time I have available for the attention and affection she craves - in other words, the proverbial "other woman" as she likes to put it. So, it behooves all of us to make sure that we don't cross the line in pursuit of our crossdressing activities by becoming too engulfed in the pink fog and in not giving our partners all the affection they expect. The hardest trick here, of course, is to find the right balance, and tensions invariably result when the two individuals differ on what what constitutes "enough".

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Some of us know that crossdressing was that deal-breaker in our marriage, but in spite of our testimony, others here deny that crossdressing can be the BLAME for a breakup, but only a contributing factor, saying things like "if you dig deeper" or "some day you'll look back and see...". As if they know more about what ended the marriage than the principals. It's denial. Crossdressing is being protected. It must be something else, other causes.

As crossdressers, are we quick to CREDIT crossdressing for good things that happen in our relationships, but slow to BLAME crossdressing for bad? That is my observation.

Your thoughts?

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It isn't cross-dressing that is being protected. It would be just as easy to say that you are protecting your ego by suggesting that cross-dressing was to blame in your marriage. Which isn't to say that your theory is without merit, but I don't find it personally compelling either.

My experience (which I don't think is particularly unique) is that being a transgendered person has caused me an amazing amount of pain and misery and anxiety over the last 30 years, and only in the last few years when I have come to terms with who, and frankly what, I am, has my life started to improve in a HUGE way. It is easy to blame being transgender for the years of misery, and take the credit for becoming a more mature person with a better understanding and acceptance of my self. That would be blaming being transgender for the bad and taking credit for the good. But that isn't the truth either.

The truth is that being transgender isn't some autonomous entity out in the world doing it's own thing, making it's own decisions, deciding to make me unhappy because it doesn't like me. Being transgender isn't something that can accept blame or praise - it is morally and ethically neutral, the same way a knife is morally and ethically neutral. A knife doesn't cut or stab on it's own, it merely exists, and requires our actions upon it to make it do things that help or harm.

Being transgender isn't what made me miserable for the last 30 years. The way I reacted to being transgender (shame, hiding, lying) is what made me miserable. Had I accepted myself at 5 years old the way I do now - my life would have been SO MUCH happier and easier (of course that would have required a family that would have supported me, but lets not get into that). I understand that looking down the barrel of your own misfortune, and accepting responsibility for it is a REALLY bloody hard to do... It is MUCH easier to find an excuse, or another person, or another reason to blame... but when we do that - we are not being honest with ourselves, and we don't really come to terms with what is happening around us and we are unable to learn from our experiences. This is what folks are trying to tell you when they say "some day (when you have had enough time to process the pain of your marriage and are able and willing to take an objective look) you'll look back and see..." It is not that they are trying to be know-it-all jerks - they are acknowledging the truth that admitting our own failures is HARD and PAINFUL, and that going through a divorce is HARD and PAINFUL, and that people often need some distance before they are ready to deal with all of that pain. They are trying to be compassionate with you, not piss you off.

I am not trying to suggest that you were completely to blame in the failure of your marriage. My belief is that it takes 2 people to make a marriage fail (or work), that neither spouse can be responsible for more or less than 50% of a marital failure (with very few exceptions for things like spousal abuse). I don't know anything about your marriage, but I would comfortably say that cross-dressing was not some sort of boogyman that invaded and destroyed your marriage. You can use it as the scapegoat if you want to, that is your business and I am not here to stop you from conducting it as you see fit. Cross-dressing is not something that was there acting or making decisions about how to behave in your marriage - but you were, and your wife was.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Thanks to everyone who responded. For some really good insight in response to my question, special thanks to Holly and Marilyn.

For Clayfish and others with whom I still disagree, I still value your comments, and thanks for offering them. The disagreement is that some think that cd-ing is only a contributing factor in breakups, while I believe that cd-ing is so intolerable for some SO's that breakups happen because of it alone. It's the straw that broke the camel's back theory versus the litmus test theory. We can agree to disagree and still have friendly discourse.

Maybe the question should be left to others. After all, we are not impartial observers. Thanks to all.

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:hugs::love: