How do You Handle Ignorant Family Members?

When I found out last April that my Husband was a CD, I had NO IDEA the very worst part of it would be his family.

My H's parents and uncle just finished up a fairly long family holiday visit. We took them out to a restaurant where we saw a GG and her CD partner, who were later met up with another CDer. This all happened a few feet from our table and my in-laws looked on with great interest.

The uncle kept calling them "flamers," and I would correct him. Over and over. Then the next day, my father-in-law, out of the blue said, "I am glad none of my sons are gay." I assured him that were that the case, he would surely love his sons unconditionally anyway. Throughout the trip, his mother bristled uncomfortably with disapproval over her state's recent gay marriage acceptance. And she pretended to get scared in Key West when we strolled past gay bars and drag queens.

I believed all three of them are good, compassionate, and loving people. I believe that should the day ever come that my H is brave enough to come out of the closet, they would embrace him and immediately change their behavior. But they also find this sort of gay and tran bashing quite amusing among themselves. And if I get defensive at all, they seem to think I am just being a sanctimonious liberal hippie (who are always fun to tweak), and they will make even more jokes to get a rise out of it.

I only realized just this week how this sort of behavior has been a major presence in my husband's life - I honestly never noticed before. Perhaps I used to laugh with them, an idea that now makes me a little ill to think about it. But now, it is SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to watch this play out and keep my mouth shut. My husband is really good at "playing along," but I know this must deeply hurt him.

How do you guys handle this sort of thing? And how do your wives manage not to slap your insensitive friends or family members when faced with such behavior?

Sounds like my parents... how to deal with them? heck if I know. Ignore them?

Lots of times I think this talk is just talk, it is aimed to form some sort of bond or club membership...to their club. You can say something positive like, sure beats being boring and average like we are...

Your husband needs encouragement to come out and divulge that he is a crossdresser and he is not homosexual. That is going to be a difficult thing for him to do.

I have never kept my crossdressing activities a secret.

After he does so then he would be in a position to rebuke people who speak ill of crossdressers. After correcting someone over and over again then it is time to be confrontational, even telling them that I don't want to hear those words. And yes, I would even do that to my own parents.

Something I really notice about the members of this forum is there is an incredible sensitivity toward women that a lot of men don't have. That may make crossdressing more acceptable to you and give you the confidence to encourage your husband to come out.

Johanna

Same way as i handle mine , haven't spoken for 24 years my childern don`t even know that they have relations , sad i know .

In my opinion is to "Just smile and nod your head"

I discovered many moons ago that you cannot teach or explain anything to the terminally ignorant.

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Originally Posted by MiamiMarie

And how do your wives manage not to slap your insensitive friends or family members when faced with such behavior?

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I sit on my hands :)

I put them right and explain about the community. Sweeping it under the carpet won't do any good, if we don't try and educate people then there is alwasy going to be these kind of comments thrown around. In saying that some people just wont listen and no matter how much you try to talk they wont listen.

I might toss in a comment or two like "Did you know that over 85% of people who bash CD's secretly harbour crossdressing fantasies of their own?" Make up some other "factoids" along a similar line, and see if that shuts them up. :D

It’s just how it is. But he has you and that must be wonderful.
If only me Ex had been like you. I hope he worships the ground you walk on.

A big hug from, SUZY

Yes, some people just have a hard time getting their arms and minds around the concept that someone is not straight and conservative like them I think that you are doing a fine job of trying to inform them. If you can take it, I recommend that you keep on trying to provide some light to their sometimes dark humor and thoughts. As for how your husband feels when they talk about it, I would just ask him and get into a conversation about it. Some people are extremely sensitive and others just let it roll off their backs with no permanent damage to them over the long haul. I was having a similar conversation with a woman I see at the local coffee shop about dealing with family members who disrupt the normal flow of things. Maybe trying to not let it get to you (taking it personal) will help you maintain your sanity, which is important to you and those around you. Good luck.

Ah, relatives. You can't live with them and you can't push them off a cliff. You can pick your nose but you can't pick your family. You have heard it all before.

It comes from fear and ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. But the ignoramus must want to learn. Remember that kid in school who would not listen no matter what? You can't teach that type of person. In this case they have a frame of reference that is based on years of misinformation.

Unfortunately if they did have a gay child, these are the type of people who would cut all strings and never speak again. You don't think they would quit "loving" their child? They would in a heart beat. Talk about sanctimonious. They wrote the book.

It will take something earth moving for them to even start to see. In this country, with interstate highways, internet access, and cable news, we are still a cloistered and ignorant society. We still live in our shells.

I have been in similar situations as you have with relatives. I have ranted, raved, argued and even pointed out scripture that refutes their ideas (when they have used scripture to argue their point). The advice above seems to be the least painful for you and your spouse. Ignore it and move on if you want to keep any ties you have. It is hard, but you can gently try and skew their misinformed ideas with time. Softly gently.

Make salient points they may comprehend. Ask then how a gay or TG person affects them personally. Does it take food from your mouth, money from their pockets or breath from their lungs? If you look at it hard enough you can refute their arguments with logic. You cannot win by emotion, no matter how passionate you are. I don't think it is a lost cause, but you have to choose your battles. That does not mean you roll over and play dead. You did the right thing when the FIL said something about gay children. I usually add that I don't really care for statements like that and although I love them (unconditionally even if they were green and slimy and all ickky) I personally find such comments offensive and would appreciate that they keep them to themselves. Adding, you never know who they may know who is in that lifestyle. Usually they look at me with a shocked looked, I give a crooked smile and sometimes a wink and they shut up quickly.

I have a friend who I love dearly who a year ago started using the 'N' word in reference to blacks. For awhile I kept my tongue, but after cringing so much and explaining to her several times that her words were mean and derogatory I finally told her I felt really uncomfortable around her when she used language that was hurtful of any racial groups and that when she did so not only did I think less of her, but I didn't want to be around her and I did care about her a lot. She tried to explain that as a child she, her family and her friends used this term all the time. I told her I couldn't be around her if she continued using hurtful language. It took me about two months to finally come to talk with her about this. I didn't want to end our friendship, but I could no longer stand to hear such vulgar comments.

Similarly, she has made comments about transgendered individuals and she is not aware of my trangender status as I selectively choose who I share my formerly male status with. I have explained to her how difficult it must be for people of gender and sexual orientation to deal with their identities and as in racial aspects I think it is important to be understanding of their issues rather than to denounce their lifestyles or display our ignorance by use of vulgar language. At least in this case, my friend has ceased the use of vulgarity and I've thanked her for that. In addition she seems to have taken my concerns to heart as we've had some good discussions since then particularly about transgender issues.

Though it took a lot of strength and time on my part to deal with these issues I found it impossibe to stand idly by any longer. I came to the conclusion I could no longer have a friend who could be so cruel. I'm glad I took the time and effort to deal with this.

Karan

Just turn the other cheek and wait for a more opportune moment. My dad always warned me about picking battles and the time to fight them. I'm pretty sure that prejudice is really fear that grows out of ignorance. As you said, these people are probably good hearted, but prejudice is what it is and it is never right. You must decide if this is a battle to fight and if it is a battle that can be won and of course, what the cost will be. I suggest you leave this one to your husband.

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Originally Posted by MiamiMarie

When I found out last April that my Husband was a CD, I had NO IDEA the very worst part of it would be his family.

My H's parents and uncle just finished up a fairly long family holiday visit. We took them out to a restaurant where we saw a GG and her CD partner, who were later met up with another CDer. This all happened a few feet from our table and my in-laws looked on with great interest.

The uncle kept calling them "flamers," and I would correct him. Over and over. Then the next day, my father-in-law, out of the blue said, "I am glad none of my sons are gay." I assured him that were that the case, he would surely love his sons unconditionally anyway. Throughout the trip, his mother bristled uncomfortably with disapproval over her state's recent gay marriage acceptance. And she pretended to get scared in Key West when we strolled past gay bars and drag queens.

I believed all three of them are good, compassionate, and loving people. I believe that should the day ever come that my H is brave enough to come out of the closet, they would embrace him and immediately change their behavior. But they also find this sort of gay and tran bashing quite amusing among themselves. And if I get defensive at all, they seem to think I am just being a sanctimonious liberal hippie (who are always fun to tweak), and they will make even more jokes to get a rise out of it.

I only realized just this week how this sort of behavior has been a major presence in my husband's life - I honestly never noticed before. Perhaps I used to laugh with them, an idea that now makes me a little ill to think about it. But now, it is SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT to watch this play out and keep my mouth shut. My husband is really good at "playing along," but I know this must deeply hurt him.

How do you guys handle this sort of thing? And how do your wives manage not to slap your insensitive friends or family members when faced with such behavior?

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I've read and reread this post probably 30 times, something was bothering me, I finaly figured it out. I've market the spots in red. I've had a similar issue with a family member, here is the issue. THEY KNOW ! or at the very least highly suspect something. There are too many red flags to pardon the pun. it's been brought up so many times in different ways, that they seem to be baiting and daring you to say something. I think you missed an opportunity to level the playing field for your husband. I have a brother who stayed at my house one weekened and found my book "My Husband Betty", He spent the next three days expounding on the 'evils' of the GLBTG agenda and how wrong everything way. Finaly I had enough and told him where i stood (lol 2-3 days a week in high heels), He got this perplexed look on his face and said "Oh , OK No big deal". There was no crisis , we still see each other when he's in town or i'm in his neighborhood. and it';s been just that "No big deal".

I'd talk things over with your husband, it might be time to have 'the talk'. If they stopped being friendly relative, you have'nt lost anything more then two biggots in your life.

Kelly

P.S. I know some will feel this is not right, but why have a long visit from someone who spends thire time upsetting you.

P.P.S. I so admire you for standing by your dear husband. Kisses to the both of you.

P.P.P.S. I'm done

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

It comes from fear and ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed. But the ignoramus must want to learn. Remember that kid in school who would not listen no matter what? You can't teach that type of person. In this case they have a frame of reference that is based on years of misinformation.

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That's the saddest thing for me -- so many people reach a certain point, not too long into adulthood, at which their beliefs, prejudices, and misconceptions become fixed and unmovable, preserved in amber like some insect specimen. I have never understood that. I live every day for learning something new. I constantly challenge myself, exposing myself to all sorts of information and viewpoints. And let me tell you, in the course of my just over a half-century on this planet, I have had MANY strongly held beliefs turned 180 degrees because I was willing to learn, and to admit when I was wrong.

My mother is on in-home hospice care. When they were setting things up, the administrator told me that many elderly patients AND their families adamantly refuse to have nurses, aides, or other hospice workers in their homes that are black, hispanic, or male. I expressed head-shaking amazement at this, pointing out that "geez, you know it's 2010; it's the 21st Century!" She responded, "That's the thing -- for them, it's not 2010; their minds are still stuck somewhere decades in the past. The calendar moved; they didn't." :sad:

I believe ignorance breeds intolerance (or is it the other way around?) and the only way to combat it is by educating those who are ignorant. Do some research to see if you can find any stats on famous people who have occasion to crossdress. Then ask your in-laws if they think those people are "flamers". It seems to me that all they know is what they see on programs like Jerry Springer and his ilk. The people on those shows are usually the exception rather than the rule. If you can provide them with positive illustrations of everyday people who enjoy crossdressing, that might be a baby step in winning them over.

I've often heard a saying that "stupid people don't know that they are stupid.....'
Beth

Im sorry to say I dont find anything good,compassionate or loving about your husbands familys attitude.a bigot is a bigot,Perhaps they need a lesson in common human decency,thank goodness he has you in his corner

:hugs:Sophie

The way I figure it, the easy way to handle it is to change the subject. You can try to educate them about TGism, but they probably won't listen and you would be wasting your breath. Until they find out about their son's crossdressing and it hits home, it is just an academic argument to them.

It might be a good idea to not even tell them about it, unless they have to know for some reason (or he wants to go fulltime etc.)

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Originally Posted by Jilmac

Then ask your in-laws if they think those people are "flamers". It seems to me that all they know is what they see on programs like Jerry Springer and his ilk. The people on those shows are usually the exception rather than the rule. If you can provide them with positive illustrations of everyday people who enjoy crossdressing, that might be a baby step in winning them over.

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Ah yes - Jerry Springer. People who go on his show thinking their problems will be solved is like trying to fight a fire by pouring gasoline on it.

Johanna

Your husband PLAYS ALONG with them? Wow. He should see a therapist.

P.S. guess no-one told them Key West is a gay vacation spot.

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Originally Posted by t-girlxsophie

Im sorry to say I dont find anything good,compassionate or loving about your husbands familys attitude.a bigot is a bigot,Perhaps they need a lesson in common human decency,thank goodness he has you in his corner

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[SIZE="5"]Right on.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by KarenCDFL

In my opinion is to "Just smile and nod your head"

I discovered many moons ago that you cannot teach or explain anything to the terminally ignorant.

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Correct. And as people get older, they often become set in their ways. There is no cure.

I have a lot of problems with my father in law. Not on crossdressing, it's never come up, but on many other issues. I only visit about three times a year and have learned to just ignore the situation, change the subject, or walk away.

I can only imagine if I showed up one day looking like my avatar! :eek:

As many have mentioned on this post, learning and acceptance have to start with want. No one ever became a mathematician because they had to, deep down they wanted to. The same can be said about accepting 'alternate' lifestyles. Sadly most people do not want to learn or change and so there will always be bigotry and ignorance. Just remember to pick your battles carefully as not every one of them can be won, or should even be fought.

[SIZE=4]This kind of ignorance is the sort of thing that all of us have dealt with. My Father never knew. My Mom knows but that is it she is the Queen if Denial. No one wants me to tell my Step-Father, I agree with this one. My Wife is very under standing, as is my Son. Surprisingly my Father-in-law is cool w/it. I have people all over the spectrum w/ this thing We call cross-dressing. I have found that the people whom really have healthy lives and Psyche's are the ones who deal w/it best. So it kind of gives me a little knowledge as to who and what I am dealing with when it comes to outing myself. If it is someone I don't know, I don't care if they know or not. Really if we think about it the people who are totally against our lifestyle, are people(as much as it pains us) we can do without. We usually wind up with them either not knowing, or drifting away from us either by their design or ours. I guess we really have to just keep on keepin on. Oh Wow I just dated my-self:doh:...[/SIZE]

I ignore them,have been ignoring them for over 10 years,I no longer call them on holidays,or any other occasions,I have no desire to hear any of their voices.

It works for me.

With a slap upside the head usually.:battingeyelashes::)

I challenge the beliefs that underlie these statements. Do they believe that gender and sexual variance, or for that matter, race and religions that are different than their own are inferior? Sick? An aberration? A bad choice that people make?

Usually comments like this are made from ignorance and all it takes is some education, unless the values are based in religious beliefs. It is difficult to change faith based values.

But if reasoning fails, I simply say that I am offended by remarks that put down an entire group of people who had no say in the way they were born, or their upbringing if they were raised in a culture different than ours.

dear, many people put down that which they are afraid of, its their way of rationalizing certain things. Its like a southern child using the N word(and no i will not use that word in reference to anyone), they have been taught all their lives to hate a certain type of person without even getting to know them, and then when one of their family members is that type of person they don't know how to deal with it, so they revert back to what they were taught when they were younger. Every once in a while, they will change their attitude, but not that often. My parents are a good example of both ends of the spectrum: when i came out to my mother and my father, my mother at first was in a state of denial then eventually came around to the thinking that I was her child no matter what and she embraced me being transgendered, my father however refuses to have anything to do with me because"there is no way in hades any son of his wants to be a girl" me and my wife have discussed this at length, we have decided that we will give him every chance possible to celebrate birthday's and holiday's with us but if he doesn't want to then so be it, his loss not ours.

It helps to develop thick skin too!.....though, uh, that doesn't sound to feminine, does it.
Well, you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Starla

My mother is on in-home hospice care. When they were setting things up, the administrator told me that many elderly patients AND their families adamantly refuse to have nurses, aides, or other hospice workers in their homes that are black, hispanic, or male.

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My mother in law lived in japan most of her life, including living through the Japan / Korea conflicts around world-war II. Before she came to live with us 3 years ago, she disliked even just going in to a Korean store, including when those stores stocked Japanese goods. She has mellowed in the 30 months since she has lived with us, and now enjoys going across the road to the Korean store, has no objection to going out for Korean food, willingly watches Korean soap operas... whatever it was that was keeping her hate going has faded away.

Her life also had little experience to black people; now her attendant 5 days a week is black (Zambian) and she gets along well with her, apparently calling her "the sister I never had". What she continues to have trouble with is the stocky loud English women: their size and seemingly abrupt movements scare her (she is not big)

75 years of prejudice and propaganda can be overcome if the person is willing to look at how they are treated by an individual rather than at what they've always been told that that class of individual is like. But you can't expect that (say) a gossip story about Ms Hilton having a black friend to suddenly change millions of minds in any meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes

With a slap upside the head usually.:battingeyelashes::)

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That wouldn't work with my socalled family,they'd slap you back,or all of them would gang up on you.

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I've read and reread this post probably 30 times, something was bothering me, I finaly figured it out. I've market the spots in red. I've had a similar issue with a family member, here is the issue. THEY KNOW !

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Honestly, I really doubt they have a clue. It just so happens we live in a very tran-rich neighborhood, we visited Key West (VERY drag/gay friendly), and the state they are from (Illinois) just made gay marriage legal. Honestly, most of this seemed to be honest responses to things that were legitimately going on.

The only thing out of the blue was his father's awful comment, except that my husband has quoted him as saying that before - though I thought he must have misheard his father. I mean, what kind of parent specifically thanks you for not being gay? My parents never did that. Nor did they thank me for not being anything else they thought might not be advantageous (a foot shorter perhaps?). I love my father-in-law dearly, but all I can think now is, what a dumb a**hole who is missing out on the joy of knowing his son in a much deeper way.

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Your husband PLAYS ALONG with them? Wow. He should see a therapist.

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He does now. And starting this year, he will be seeing a gender specialist and going to a tran-couple group pride club with me. I will make him love himself come rain or Spain!!!!

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P.S. guess no-one told them Key West is a gay vacation spot.

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LOL. I told them this, and that there were clothing optional bars, "**** and Pussy" tours, and world-famous biker bars, but they could not be swayed. Anything to get a good key lime pie I guess.

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me and my wife have discussed this at length, we have decided that we will give him every chance possible to celebrate birthday's and holiday's with us but if he doesn't want to then so be it, his loss not ours.

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Wow. That is both very sad and an impressive demonstration of your maturity and character. I hope, for your father's sake, that he wakes up to what he has been missing out on soon.

Family with that attitude, argh sounds like mine. My family is so constant with meal times, furniture positions, and attitude that anything that perturbs their mindset is seen as a threat and usually becomes the brunt of sarcasm. My mother is sometimes very gentle and understanding, so much I have almost told her about my crossdressing. Unfortunately she is very scatheing when it comes to any argument and she will hurl demeaning, shnide remarks which cut like shards of glass so I suppress any personal needs to openly discuss anything remotely different to the family unit's belief. My father always makes a comment about the attitude of a person gay, strange or what by " at least he does not wear a dress, they are the ones you need to watch out for". The only way I see to tackle the problem is to ignore the ignorant and keep the stability because any pertebation of a closed system may result in many years of uncertainty and equilibrium may never return.

Lorileah hit it pretty good, couldn't have said it any better. Like you post, the less contact the better, for other reasons have been there myself, just had to walk away.

If it is a parent, I just remind them I am going to be the one making the decisions about their nursing home when they get older, so they better be nice to me...:D

If you want to get a quick pulse on a person's moral and ethical perspectives, ask them to share what their life was like when they were ten years old. That's a great little tip, especially if you happen to be in sales, calling on purchashing agents and decision makers...try it...

Oh, and it is not worth your time to try and shift a person's foundation and bias. Particularly people that are 10 or more years your senior. It rarely produces a desirable outcome. You might as well tell them you are going to take em' out to the woodshed and set em' straight...:D

Some battles are not worth fighting. Stubborn parents have a tough time letting their children change their beliefs. It makes them feel as though they failed as a parent in some way. Like admitting they are guilty...

I just moved over 1000 miles away from my father, kept visits to 2days max, and rarely answered the phone. I did not even attend his funeral. Sad, but true... "It is what it is"...

:love:

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Originally Posted by eluuzion

Some battles are not worth fighting. Stubborn parents have a tough time letting their children change their beliefs. It makes them feel as though they failed as a parent in some way. Like admitting they are guilty.

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Sad, but true -- not just with family members, but anyone whose misguided beliefs and notions are so strongly ingrained. People tend to cling to those beliefs tenaciously, and often when you try to counter those beliefs, even if done gently and respectfully, it works against you. It just sets up that cognitive dissonance in which the more you try to argue from facts and evidence, the deeper they dig their defensive trench.

Some people's attitudes can be changed. But when you encounter someone who obviously has no desire to listen, you might as well be speaking two different languages. That's when it's best to just walk away and save your breath and not allow it to get to you. It can be hard when it's someone you care about, but it's often the best way to handle things.

Did you say your father-in-laws name was Archie Bunker?

My favorite quote of all time is "The cure for ignorance is education; the cure for stupidity is death." The only test I've successfully used to determine which I was dealing with is to ask a question that the established dogma hasn't really covered and actually requires them to think on their own. My experience with resistance has been mostly male but the questions would work equally well being asked of a female. Ask of a group of men have you ever tried on a a pair of your wife or girlfriends panties? Some will admit to it, some will not. If you can get one to admit it ask them if they suddenly develop an interest in men when they put them on? The usual answer is an emphatic denial of any male interest. The follow on question is then how many articles of womens clothing can you put on before you become gay. (Mind you I know it has nothing to do with it one way or the other.)

As an alternate you can use the classic woman who sleeps in his boxers and t-shirt or puts said items on after sex. Does she instantly upon wearing these items fancy women instead of the man she borrowed them from? Does she like girls when wearing pants and boy when wearing skirts or dresses?

The goal is to get a thought provoking question into the brain before they see the challenge to their beliefs and raise the dogma shield to full power.

I love your approach Jason. Now, if I can just remember that the next time I need it!

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Originally Posted by Jason+

Ask of a group of men have you ever tried on a a pair of your wife or girlfriends panties? Some will admit to it, some will not.

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From my observations of "goofing around" photos on Flickr, Facebook,etc., I think the typical guy is far more likely to put on his girl's bra than her panties. It's always about the hooters.... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jason+

The goal is to get a thought provoking question into the brain before they see the challenge to their beliefs and raise the dogma shield to full power.

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The "dogma shield" -- great term! I'm gonna steal that and use it... :thanx:

First, I would never, never suggest to someone that "coming out" is a good way to deal with the situation. I think that every case is different and only you can know if coming out is a good thing to do.
Some of my relatives (Dad) are very much against gays and transgendered, etc and would say that they are goof balls or nuts, that they should get their life together, that all gays are going to hell. I would try to argue that few people would choose to be gay, that it can be a very tough life with so many people ready to ridicule them and thus we should offer support and compasion to those that are really haaving difficulty coping. I would say we should be tolerant and realize that our way is not the only way. I would say that with your attitude, it is really fortunate that you were not born gay.
None of it did any good.

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Originally Posted by Jason+

My favorite quote of all time is "The cure for ignorance is education; the cure for stupidity is death."

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I was thinking along these lines too... the answer to ignorance is education. Those who do not want or value education fall in the stupidity category. The only thing that makes someone stupid is the refusal to learn.

Death may seem a little extreme for stupidity, but...as the German philosopher Schiller once wrote... "Against stupidity, the gods themselves labour in vain"...

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Originally Posted by Kaz

Death may seem a little extreme for stupidity, but...as the German philosopher Schiller once wrote... "Against stupidity, the gods themselves labour in vain"...

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It could be a matter of interpretation as well. I always felt it meant that death was the only thing that would cure rampant, willful and belligerant stupidity more so than that those who exhibited it should be hunted down and put to death for it.

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Originally Posted by KarenCDFL

terminally ignorant.

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hehe! this is a lovely turn of phrase :p

If the cure for ignorance is education, hell I would hate to be the educator in this instance, especially with some students and their attitudes but I agree, educate the ignorant and hopefully they comprehend and understand.