A question about BDSM and Crossdressing\tg\ts ?

First I want to mention that I realize I ask a lot of direct questions. And very often they are not comfortable for many to answer. I also understand that sometimes I come across as a bit of bitch. For this I am sorry, I really do not want to offend anyone with the questions I ask. I am genuinely curious and interested in understanding the things I see and read on the forum. Oh and I am really sweet in a Jersey kind of way:heehee:

So here is my question in two parts:

For those of you that are interested in BDSM. I have many questions but since this thread has the potential to be quite long and in a million different directions. I will start with one or two. The first is if you are Submissive do you feel that being submissive (in this context) is related to your gender presentation? And if so why?

Please understand that I ask this question with respect I am not judging at all. And also that I am interested in this subject academically. I do not want this thread to become lists of fantasies and other such stuff:Angry3: We should be able to have a good discussion with out anybody posting things they pulled of fiction mania.

Lastly, the reason I ask. For me personally I feel empowered when I am Dressed. It is the only time I feel right actually but that is another thread. But even when I first started and only could dress up once in a while. I never felt passive or submissive. I always felt even then that I could take on or TOP to use the expression anyone or anything.

Do you see genetic women as submissive? Is it a shame thing? Motivated by guilt? I am grabbing at straws here and would really like to hear from you.

A foot note:
I edited this post and the title because Stephanie pointed out with good reason that CD community gets a lot of bad press and why add fuel to the fire. And I agree with her, so I removed the TG reference from the title and left it at for those interested. I hope that is OK. I also wanted to ad something about why I am interested and why I ask questions that tend to put people on the defensive. I really do not want to stir the pot nor am I judging anyone.
As to my reasons other than the on I already stated. As it says above my avatar "I live in the real world" I am out to family and friends at work and everywhere else. I bring this up not to brag or flaunt but to make my point. As stephanie has Said "CDs get a lot of bad press" and that is certainly very true. In the course of living my life and interacting with friends and meeting people I am often asked not only about myself. But about the community at large. And like Stephanie I care about the transgender community ALL OF IT!!! That includes Transexuals, Crossdressers, TransMen, And anybody else under any other label that YOU, WE, THEY, might care to use.
I celebrate people doing things that make them happy and if that includes BDSM, The Maid thing, or whatever I am happy for you, and would like to one understand you, and two be able to support you. I cant do that without information. And I wouldn't mind learning something about myself in the process.
The reason I ask is because I have been asked by others, as is always the case when I open a thread such as this. I am a very gregarious person, I meet a lot of people, and people ask questions. Questions that are usually motivated by what they see on the Springer Show or some other misguided portrayal of our community. I want to give them good intelligent answers that show us in the light we deserve. So the next time someone asks me, and believe me they will and have.

"why when I looked up Crossdressing or whatever label on the internet, I found a bondage site etc.. are you like that?"

I want to be able to say "well no that is not my thing"
but I would like to add "but for some it is and the people I spoke to explained it this way"
and I would also throw on the end of that "and by the way I think it is really cool and I support them doing what makes them happy!"

All I am asking for is a little help. Wow! my foot note is longer than my OP Sorry about that.

The final thing I want to clarify, I get that it is not everybody. For the love of all things pretty It isn't even me! Thats why I am asking! :o

My GG is Submissive to the point SHE is worried about it. Now that being said, I do find many GG being submissive, and usually it is not because of anything natural per se, but due to the manner they were raised, and things they were told. My GG friend for instance was brought up being told she was useless and worthless due to her being a girl. She was treated like trash too. The female friends I have had that act submissive also seem to have had a similar bringing up. Ones that were brought up to be proud of themselves, participated in sports, and were treated with respect when they were children ARE NOT SUBMISSIVE.

So my view is quite skewed when it come to this. What I say here may be a bit off.

There are levels of submissiveness that are natural, and all species exhibit this, but not to the point some humans do.

I myself do not find me being overtly sub, or dom. I can get uncomfortable playing the dom. I don't like fixed roles.

I have been described as a switch.

I'm not into BDSM per se, but to the more general question of your post, I also don't feel all that submissive when I get dressed up in girly things. In fact on the rare occasions I've had a partner give the ok on me wearing lingerie in the bedroom, I've felt very confident and as such maybe even a little more assertive, though I wouldn't say necessarily dominant. I think it's because I've always gravitated towards confident, strong women, so that's maybe the direction I go towards myself when I'm feeling feminine in the bedroom.

There's definitely a rather sizeable contingent that would disagree with me though. The whole "sissy" subculture, which seems to be somewhat related to BDSM but more it's own thing, definitely plays up the angle of the crossdressed male as submissive. I try to have a "to each their own" mentality about people's sexualities, but there's always felt like a certain degree of ugliness to the motivations behind the sissy thing, to me. It bugs me in a way. It feels like there's definitely an air of misogyny, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Well let me start by saying that I too am a "switch". I do tend to lean more towards being a sub, but still a switch! I do love the feeling I get when dressed, I feel more connected with life. I don't think that I feel more of a sub because of being a crossdresser, I just truly enjoy it. Even if i wasn't a CD I still would be into BDSM! Part of it may be that I spent most of my life in the job world, where I had to be "in charge" Had to lead, had to be the boss. So now it's nice letting someone else make me do or act the way they want me too!

Yes, I think there is an attractive quality in the helplessness of a bound female that is part of the stimulation. For instance, I am much more interested in 'damsel in disteess ' bondage. To be bound en femme, but not to PRESENT as obviously female (for instance, wrapped in plastic, or zentai suits, or something, where you couldn't quite tell male from female) doesn't interest me. I enjoy a more sparse bondage, and and emphasizing femininity. Wrists tied behind the back, but the blouse open and a barely contained cleavage; few ropes around the ankles is a prettier picture, particularly if the ankles are covered in seamed stockings and capped with simple black stillettoes. That gets me way more than heavy leather straps and hoods.

In short, the BDSM I'm into does have a cross-over with the submissive question. The damsels in distress have to look worried, or scared. And when I am bound, I want to look that way, too. I believe that a part of my dressing is being in love with the way I look as a woman, and that if there were no mirrors in the world, a big part of my dressing would change. I enjoy presenting and seeing myself as a woman, and other activities flow from this; for instance the desire to pass in public is a reaffirmation of whether I really do look like a woman. It reinforces my fantasy of being feminine. When I am bound, a big part of the enjoyment is how female and how 'in distress' I look, and a submissive role, appearinggagged AND scared, is a part of that. So yes, fem/submissive aspects play together. Not because women are submissive, or that I see women as less powerful, but that there is a frailty and fragility to femininity that is undeniable.

Does that help? MK

I was really anxious that I was developing some major auto-sadomasochistic tendencies, but I decided not to beat myself up over it

My wife and myself played with bondage for a while years ago. I would secure her to the headboard
and play away; Some times I would put whipping cream on her nipples. Yummy.
Now the thrill is gone as it were, Things do not work as good as they used to, and the wife
has hart troubles, so sex is not that big a deal now. We do still have each other. She is OK with my
dressing, as long as I stay inside. My point is, I always treaded her as an equal, no top, "boss"
or Bottom between us. We would always go grocery shopping together until now her handicap's
have her in a wheel chair. We always try to hug each other At least once a day.
I hope this answers your question. I dress because I enjoy being in fem clothing, Not because I want
to feel like a Sub (Not a sandwich,LOL), or a top when I am in drab. Rader

Not so much into the SM part, but I definitely think there is a BD aspect to my CDing. And it isn't so much "submitting" like a servant or slave, but more being served and allowing your partner to take the reins. This thread is about sex, so I hope no one objects to me getting a bit specific in my descriptions that will follow... if you don't want to read it, go ahead and skip the rest of this post...

No matter how you cut it, in the end, a man's penis really is in control, whether he wants it to be or not... There have been times that it is hard to hold back an orgasm, which makes it hard for my wife to "take control"... I would have to tell her "I'm ready", which still has me in a degree of control. So that may be some of what is causing me to desire taking a more submissive role, because it is so hard to be truly submissive.

I envy my wife being able to orgasm over and over and she really seems to get "lost" in the feelings, sensations, and emotions of the event. I have to finish and then I've got to take at least a 15-20 minute rest (if I'm able to go again at all... usually only with the help of an "enhancement" pill). And it isn't a "lasting" issue... I can last just fine. It's that at some point, I decide when it's over. That is sad to me.

I need you to inform me a little of which you speak DaphneGrey. Your statement "BDSM which seems to be a somewhat common interest among crossdressers" is the highlight here. Possibly I'm a bit over-protective of the CD world, but when I hear, or read, statements like this it causes me to squinchel a little. My exposure is that society in general looks at BDSM as something kinky and should be left hidden and out of site. (Unless you are of a heavy religious faith and then participants should go directly to hell and not pass go :evilbegon) With that being the case, is it not best to leave statements such as this out of a conversation where we know "Joe Public" is possibly cruising the forum. Do we not want the public to accept us as "normal" people? And that crossdressing is NOT wrong. Besides, I'm not really sold on the idea of yours that BDSM is indeed common among crossdressers. There certainly are those that participate ( and I'm certainly not one to judge it's morality), but common?

I don't think BDSM is more common among CDs than in the general population. And won't change my belief unless you've some hard figures to back that up?

I myself have ALWAYS been fascinated by bondage! WAY before I ever CDed. And I'm just now finding out that Sherry loves being tied up! My series of, "The Perils of Sherry" pics, will NOT be posted here, unfortunately!

So is this another one of those "I don't get you sissy freaks so tell me again what you're about so I can reassure myself that I'm better than you." kind of questions? LOL!

I am not sure about the bdsm and CD correlation other than if you are openminded enough to explore CD you would probably be more accepting of something different such as BDSM. I have always viewed the vast majority of women at being somewhat submissive. With that being said, presenting as a woman in appearance and actions would naturally create a degree of submissiveness. IMHO.

"I don't think BDSM is more common among CDs than in the general population. And won't change my belief unless you've some hard figures to back that up?" - docrobsherry


Well, here is a study from a British Psychiatry journal (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/159/3/371) looking into sexual asphyxia (orgasm and blacking out) that states that transvestism and bondage are frequently associated. It's in the introduction, and it is stated as established fact, not 'hey, this is new news". I think the association is real - that a certain types of crossdressers will be more likely than the average population to experiment with bondage. By 'certain types', I mean those that are stimulated by wearing, or looking at themselves wearing, women's clothes. That's as opposed to people who are in transition, people who identify themselves as female, etc. I don't think the question is mean spirited at all, and I don't think we should limit our discussion just to appear 'more normal' to the casually curious who troll the forum. Its not that being en femme is acceptably unusual, and that bondage is weird, I think. They both are what they are. My gosh, have you seen that show called "Strange Addictions" that focuses on people eating household cleanser and toilet paper? I swear I never felt more normal in my life!! :) MK

I read the link before posting. My wife and I tried mild bondage, and, it ran its course. I think every male has a desire or fantasy of being tied down spread eagle and having his S/O having her way with his body. All legitimate websites on bondage and self bondage STRESS do not tie anything around the neck and have a person to monitor the activity. Now, how many times have there been posts here concerning the necessity to cross-dress in privacy without the S/O around. My wife does not like my cross-dressing, so it sure as heck ain't getting into the marital bed. If I want to hang myself in the closet, I'm going to have to do it alone.

Having worked all my life in an environment/profession where women outnumber men, I have always considered men and women to be equal. And I have carried this notion of equality into my private relationships. Whenever I have been involved in bondage, we have taken turns. We seem to have done pretty much the same things as RADER describes above. The purpose was to establish trust.

Sex is fun! And it's varieties are virtually endless!

("Hit me!" said the masochist. "No!" said the sadist.)
:devil:

Marina, thanks for the article. Although how I read it is that in those subjects studied there were associations between transvestism and BDSM, NOT CD's in general. Better put: If we picked any 3 out of 100 CD's on this forum that are into B.D.S.M. then the chances are darn high they would be in the associated category with said subjects. It does not say the other 97 CD's are even considered. And that is what I'm getting at. Even if those that are into B.D.S.M., as well as others that may not be but are unopposed, think the general public may not have a problem with it I think (and this is just MY assumption) that most CD's don't want the public to associate themselves with B.D.S.M. crossdressers. NOT that there is anything wrong with it - to each their own. But the more support we have going forward the easier the "fight" will be with the rest. And it's just that more people in general are not into B.D.S.M.

I too question the notion that BDSM is prevalent among CD's. I can see it in the the more fetish side of our spectrum. I also believe that a lot of people in BDSM just happen to crossdress.

I think the woman's role has traditionally been the submissive one, housewife, child bearer and raiser, non-worker. That has, fortunately, changed for the positive over time. In BDSM submissive has a special meaning to that understood by the general public. I am referencing the general publics interpretation of that word.

Stephanie, regarding your suggestion to self-censor these type of discussions, I can only say that this is a good topic, has so far been handled properly in this thread, and we shouldn't be painting false, unrealistic pictures of who and what we are and do. Should we remove the panty threads, or maybe the CD dating ones? I hope not.

Since I prefer dressing as a maid in most of my cding, I do consider myself on the sub side while dressed. I am not really into any BDSM, unless I do find a mistress someday that I liked. Then I may give it a shot!!!

Hi Daphnie,

Your thread starts with an assumption that CDs are all BDSM.. I would just like to state that some us are not... and we are quite cool about that...

i have a fantasy about being a little girl, and dressing up like one ,as sort of the antithesis of being a male that likes male things (trucks, guns, power, domination, etc.) which seems exciting to me in a masochistic kind of way..... but that is not why I crossdress.

Little girl's clothes look like clown clothes, only more frillier. They do not look like women's clothes.
Little boy's clothes look like little mens clothes.

My transgenderism is more of a manifestation of my personal tastes in clothing & style. I just like what I like and I want to be & do what women do. It's just me. Men's clothes bore me.

For the sake of this all taking off in the wrong way, might i suggest Daphne, that you do a search on this topic. I know that there was a very long and quite thorough discussion of what you are asking.
My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, so i'll have to come back to it.

You tell em' Stevie!!!!

Cassie

p.s. ok, so i looked and the thread was started by our friend BRANDYJ, and since it went to 7 pages you should find lot's of valuable info there. Sorry but i would provide the link if i knew what the heck i was doing.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable could consider that a hint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaz

Hi Daphnie,

Your thread starts with an assumption that CDs are all BDSM.. I would just like to state that some us are not... and we are quite cool about that...

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No it doesn't Kaz. "For those of you that are interested" That kind of says some not all.

I do enjoy bdsm and I am a sub, at least as male. Now, I normally have some femme mannerisms while masculine (makes me a well rounded individual), but they become more pronounced in a bdsm/sub situation. But, as Monica, it's hard to say. Feel sub still, but Monica is so new to the world, that side of myself has yet to discover her true nature. There is something a bit empowering being Monica that I find interesting. Maybe it's the awesome knee high, patent leather boots with laces all the way up that inspires a dominatrix in me, or maybe the idea of staring down a sub while I'm in a tight corset. Perhaps Monica goes both ways, only time and experience will tell. LOL.

I do find the typical bdsm notions of gender and roles offputing, even offensize sometimes. Genetic women are not naturally submissive to me, though some in bdsm community see it that way. But I also despise the denegration men receive just because they are men. And I just can't wrap my head around using feminization as a punishment. But to each there own (to a limit lol).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller

I need you to inform me a little of which you speak DaphneGrey. Your statement "BDSM which seems to be a somewhat common interest among crossdressers" is the highlight here. Possibly I'm a bit over-protective of the CD world, but when I hear, or read, statements like this it causes me to squinchel a little. My exposure is that society in general looks at BDSM as something kinky and should be left hidden and out of site. (Unless you are of a heavy religious faith and then participants should go directly to hell and not pass go :evilbegon) With that being the case, is it not best to leave statements such as this out of a conversation where we know "Joe Public" is possibly cruising the forum. Do we not want the public to accept us as "normal" people? And that crossdressing is NOT wrong. Besides, I'm not really sold on the idea of yours that BDSM is indeed common among crossdressers. There certainly are those that participate ( and I'm certainly not one to judge it's morality), but common?

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I understand where you are coming from, but I think ultimately talking about these things in a mature way does more good than harm.

Radar, we didn't need the description this is supposed to be a thread about motivation.

LILsissiestevie, I tried t be as open minded as possible and express that I wasn't judging anyone. There was really no need for that reply.

Jive and Mirina Thank you for the post I want to respond to them and I will but I am in a rush at the moment.

When endeavoring to cite as fact or even draw conclusions from material, careful consideration must be given to the source data. The quoted abstract from a very small survey does not and in fact does not purport to make any observations about the general activities or associations within the gender community. The study quoted investigates an extremely small subset of human behavior. This study reviews only those who have died from autoerotic asphyxia. It is not a study of gender based behavior. Transvestism, along with other attributes, is only introduced as a potential observable association of the target group. The study draws conclusions only about the habits and behaviors of those who died engaging in autoerotic asphyxia and actually offers nothing about gender communities beyond their observation that some who died also participated in transvestitic behavior. The definition of transvestism is also a bit vague in the abstract. Without further explanation the abstract says that observable behavior such as anal self-stimulation and viewing oneself in the mirror were attributed to transvestism. Without a supporting explanation of that methodology the best they can be said for that assignment is, well I guess it isn’t bondage.

I would have to agree with Stephanie Miller, who pretty well says it all. The British medical article said that Transvestites and BDSM were pretty much the same. That may be true, but one must remember that according to all known statistics, Transvestites account for only a very small portion of Crossdressers. I know the United Kingdom uses the 2 terms as one and the same, but medically they are not! And I don't think they are the same on this Forum either! A Transvestite dresses primarily for sexual reasons, which many of us on this Forum do not!

My late wife and I used to use some light bondage at times during sex play, but were never into BDSM. Nor would I ever get into it. It is not my thing at all.

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Originally Posted by KristaE

Not so much into the SM part, but I definitely think there is a BD aspect to my CDing. And it isn't so much "submitting" like a servant or slave, but more being served and allowing your partner to take the reins.

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Just for the record the acronym-BDSM-can be broken down several ways, and since it covers such a vast array of feelings, actions and such, it makes sense to cover it fully.
The typical way is Bondage Discipline Sado Masochism, but the DS can also be read as D/s as in Dominance and submission and the SM as slave and Master.

As for the idea of Joe Public (or Jane perhaps) roaming around here and seeing something damaging to our communities image, we should keep in mind that the internet has numerous places that can be much more visually graphic. Face it there are many sites that have the TG/CD label attached that are more "out there".
And since we are on the subject of BDSM, FetLife comes to mind, which has a fairly large contigent of CD/TG/TS/TVs, and prolly would be very shocking to the unsuspecting.
As stated our having a proper and respectful discussion of dominance and submission by those of us who do identify should not be seen as a bad thing.

I previously mentioned another thread just as an option.

Cassie

I couldn't agree more Daphnie, that there are subjects like this that can be openly talked about. This was not a point I was eluding to. I was expressing my thoughts on adding BDSM to the overall general populace of CD's, as in your statement above. It's just, like I said earlier, that maybe I'm oversensitive to the crossdressing and peoples general perception of who we are. CD's seem to only get bad press. We are thrown under the bus at every chance. I just don't see the need to give additional fuel to the fire with non factually supported comments that have the possibility of not helping our public image - and possibly even lowering it by saying them.

What's with the Transvestism versus crossdressers? Same damn thing. They are words to describe the same thing. If anything I think people in this thread are confusing transvestitism with fetishism. More acutely clothing fetishes.

I would say that any people that say a corset fetish or petticoat / lolita fetish would statistically fall into a higher than average amount of affinity for BDSM. I also don't really call light bondage bdsm. Tying you up with scarves to get a thrill is not the same as leathers on a cross getting spanked raw upside down while blowing a dom wearing a dildo.

To answer daphnegrey's question, I don't feel dominate in my relationships. I don't feel overtly submissive either. Sexually, I would be a bottom because I prefer that but it really is not a female = weak trait. It is a preference for pleasure.

I'm not really actively into partaking in restraint or humiliation bondage as I feel trapped / ridiculed doing so and it defeats the enjoyment factor. The last thing I want is to be made to feel small or ridiculed. I also do not like like bondage as I don't like my limbs immobile during sex. Light pain is a different matter and enhances intimacy so long as it is not done in a harmful or scarring way. I would also never bind my partner as it decreases my enjoyment.

For those who will undoubtadly disagree with my terminology about cd versus tv...

Transvestism - is the practice of cross-dressing, which is wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex.
Cross-dressing - is the wearing of clothing and other accoutrement commonly associated with a gender within a particular society that is seen as different than the one usually presented by the dresser.

So if you want to get technical, transvestism is the act of cross-dressing which is the act of wearing garments and appearing as a gender incongruent with your presented gender.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MsMjSerene

For the sake of this all taking off in the wrong way, might i suggest Daphne, that you do a search on this topic. I know that there was a very long and quite thorough discussion of what you are asking.
My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, so i'll have to come back to it.

You tell em' Stevie!!!!

Cassie

p.s. ok, so i looked and the thread was started by our friend BRANDYJ, and since it went to 7 pages you should find lot's of valuable info there. Sorry but i would provide the link if i knew what the heck i was doing.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable could consider that a hint.

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Hi MsMJSerene, Yes, it was me that started the thread you mentioned. I'm glad to see Daphnie start this one...Thank you Daphnie.

My first thought after reading all the posts so far is that BDSM and all the subcategories covered under that wide umbrella for many dominant and submissive activities and lifestyles is as misunderstood as the umbrella term " Transgendered", that covers everyone and anyone that is either straight, bi, gay, drag queen, sissy, fetish, transsexual, transvestite, crossdresser, full time, part time, dressing and or acting the part of the gender they were not born in. Well you get the picture.
I was a crossdresser long before I ever developed an interest in being submissive to ONLY GG females. In fact, I was a crossdresser before that term came...hell, before I even knew a name for the then shameful thing I did as an 11 year old boy. There are many things under the BDSM umbrella that I have zero interest in. Many things some people do frankly turn me off. Hey, we all have our limits and personal likes and dislikes. As an example, I am a crossdresser and I like to be a maid or even a French maid to the lady I serve, but don't yo dare call me a sissy! I despise that term with all it's negative connotations. So I can see where some readers here can get their panties in a wad over some suggestions that being submissive or otherwise participating in any form of BDSM is more prevalent among crossdressers then the general population. I am among those that believes it is more prevalent among crossdressers then non-crossdressing men. No, not from some study, just my own observation of several sites dealing with bondage, dominance and submission; like fetlife and collarme.com


Just like all of us that are transgendered, there are things some of us do that many think is weird, sick, wrong or just not something we'd do. Some of us will go out dressed and even shop dressed, The majority of us would never do it for various reasons.

Some of you may think a man that submits to a woman is weak. I say you are very wrong. It takes a strong man to allow himself to submit to a woman. I am far from submissive in my business or social life away from what I am with the one woman I love, admire, respect and serve. I'm proud to make her life a little easier by my filling her wishes through my very freely given submission to her. She is very loving, very giving, very understanding and fair in everything we do. But in the end, her wishes come before my own. And I don't wan tit any other way.

Some of you might want to read the many posts by others in the thread I started. I think there is a good cross section of opinions there for those interested to think about. The link is: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ive&highlight=

I hope this thread continues with the same accepting attitude that was shown in my thread. BDSM or more directly, D/s may not be your thing, but please respect those that are happy with their interest and or involvement with it. Speaking of acceptance and tolerance, if any of you want to know where you could go dressed and be accepted, find your local BDSM munch and go dressed and see just how accepting and tolerant this alternate lifestyle group of people can be.

I am not very much into BDSM, but with the right partner it can be such fun it add variety to a relationship. I am always sub,you can tell that for my affinity to collars and one friend used to describe me as a sweet power bottom.

I agree with the OP---when dressed, particularly in something sexy and shiny, I feel empowered and am always a top in any relationship---I'm lucky enough to have gurlfriends who feel the opposite way and are very submissive when dressed so it works out fine

I just hate to see the CD world painted with ANY broad brush.And,like Stephanie said,we are alwys getting bad press.Why fuel the fire when the numbers don't reflect reality?Who knows how many T minded people there are when so many are in the closet? So,why are any statistics accurate?

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

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My late wife and I used to use some light bondage at times during sex play, but were never into BDSM. Nor would I ever get into it. It is not my thing at all.

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Some people mite disagree with u, Stephanie! Because the B in BDSM stands for Bondage. However, I would argue that a guy who tries on his SO's panties and/or nylons in private once or twice, is NOT necessarily a CD!
Likewise, the fact that u TRIED bondage may be SUBSTANCIALLY different than being a tru bondage enthusiast. Which I WAS/AM.:brolleyes:

Also, being a Bondage enthusiast, DOESN'T mean I enjoy any of the REST of the BDSM acronym! (I don't!) Or, even like using the acronym. Which I DON'T! :Angry3:

Hmmm! I wonder if that analogy can be applied to OTHER acronyms? Maybe one that contains a "TG" in it?
That mite explain why SOME of the LETTERS in there, object to the implied connection to the OTHERS!?:eek:

For me, BDSM does not completely apply. Bondage and submission, yes. The other darker parts, no.

There is definitely a stronger urge when I am dressed than when in male mode. I go back to those detective magazine covers of the captive damsels in distress and fancy myself as being that when tied up. It's my strongest and most desired bedroom activity. It makes me feel even more feminine than dressing by itself.

Having posted and participated in threads concerning this, I recall them always being some of the more popular subjects on this forum. I further believe that for many of us here, there is a much stronger urge to practice this than the "normal" cross section of our society.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller

I couldn't agree more Daphnie, that there are subjects like this that can be openly talked about. This was not a point I was eluding to. I was expressing my thoughts on adding BDSM to the overall general populace of CD's, as in your statement above. It's just, like I said earlier, that maybe I'm oversensitive to the crossdressing and peoples general perception of who we are. CD's seem to only get bad press. We are thrown under the bus at every chance. I just don't see the need to give additional fuel to the fire with non factually supported comments that have the possibility of not helping our public image - and possibly even lowering it by saying them.

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Well I don't quite see it the same way. And truthfully we both have the communities best interest at heart so I edited the title and content of my OP. I hope you stick around for some more of the conversation. I also added a rather long footnote to the op as well that perhaps might help understand my motivation:)

I am not really trying to change your belief docrobbyshery. I am just trying to learn about something I don't understand from people who practice and enjoy it. I am really interested in exploring the motivations specifically as they pertain to gender and gender expression. If there even is any.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

My GG is Submissive to the point SHE is worried about it. Now that being said, I do find many GG being submissive, and usually it is not because of anything natural per se, but due to the manner they were raised, and things they were told. My GG friend for instance was brought up being told she was useless and worthless due to her being a girl. She was treated like trash too. The female friends I have had that act submissive also seem to have had a similar bringing up. Ones that were brought up to be proud of themselves, participated in sports, and were treated with respect when they were children ARE NOT SUBMISSIVE.

So my view is quite skewed when it come to this. What I say here may be a bit off.

There are levels of submissiveness that are natural, and all species exhibit this, but not to the point some humans do.

I myself do not find me being overtly sub, or dom. I can get uncomfortable playing the dom. I don't like fixed roles.

I have been described as a switch.

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Thanks for posting! So In the case of your SO and the other GGs you mentioned it is more nurture than nature. Is she submissive during play only? what is she like otherwise? I hope that isn't to personal.

It is true that dom\sub exsists in the animal kingdom. But I guess we tend to amplify things.

I will admit I don't really understand the scene as It were but this concept of dominance and submission is not at all uncommon it is part of life. I think about being married or any other relationship.

Some times just rolling over when your partner really wants sex and you are tired, being passive lending yourself to another is a form of submission and really quite beautiful!

Or in ballroom dancing, The male leads and the woman (chooses) to follow. Looking at it from that perspective the submissive partner is really in control.

Is that the allure maybe being able to trust someone so deeply that you choose to go wherever they might lead?

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Originally Posted by EllieOPKS

I am not sure about the bdsm and CD correlation other than if you are openminded enough to explore CD you would probably be more accepting of something different such as BDSM. I have always viewed the vast majority of women at being somewhat submissive. With that being said, presenting as a woman in appearance and actions would naturally create a degree of submissiveness. IMHO.

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That is something I havent thought of but it is a very good point! In your case, I would like to ask. Do you associate women being submissive as a condition of sexual politics? ie Men work and women stay home etc? Or do you feel it is inherrant in a feminine nature? Just curious, and not judging.

Little miss innocents is chiming in. I've seen just as many TS in to BDSM as I've seen CD's. Now here is an odd twist . From what I've seen trans women into BDSM seem to play with other women even if the are into men. Just what I've seen. Also a lot of CD's that I know were into BDSM before they dressed. Others had an interest in it . When they felt that they could be them selfs and dress, they though they could be them selfs and enter BDSM.

Don't worry about folks being on the defensive Daph. If they can't stand the "heat" then maybe they should get out of the "kitchen". Anyway, to answer your question I tried B & D briefly once for about a month. At the end I was ready to deck my "dom" as it was assumed I was a "sub". I wasn't and just because I dressed I didn't feel submissive nor did I ever.:)

I am not into BDSM and really do not understand why anyone would want to put themselves in that position. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just not my thing. I would rather be an equal with my partner and do what comes natural to please them. I have never felt the need to be tied up and beat with a whip nor have I ever felt the need to control anyone.

No judgments here, if that is what you like, go for it.

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Originally Posted by MsMjSerene

Just for the record the acronym-BDSM-can be broken down several ways, and since it covers such a vast array of feelings, actions and such, it makes sense to cover it fully.
The typical way is Bondage Discipline Sado Masochism, but the DS can also be read as D/s as in Dominance and submission and the SM as slave and Master.

As for the idea of Joe Public (or Jane perhaps) roaming around here and seeing something damaging to our communities image, we should keep in mind that the internet has numerous places that can be much more visually graphic. Face it there are many sites that have the TG/CD label attached that are more "out there".
And since we are on the subject of BDSM, FetLife comes to mind, which has a fairly large contigent of CD/TG/TS/TVs, and prolly would be very shocking to the unsuspecting.
As stated our having a proper and respectful discussion of dominance and submission by those of us who do identify should not be seen as a bad thing.

I previously mentioned another thread just as an option.

Cassie

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Agreed! Too often threads like this get hung up on the "labels"! BDSM is a label that covers a huge range of possiblities.

What a boring place this would be if everyone here defined themselves by an acronym. The diversity of experiences and opinions on this board, imho, is why it is so interesting to read.

I've been active in the D/s scene for more than 30 years. Primarily I've been a Dom male. For the last two years I live almost 24/7 as a submissive female, with my fiancee being the one in charge, in almost all aspects of our lives. The conditions of my current life aren't really germane here, but I'm more than happy to discuss how we live in a private conversation.

That being said, in all my years of experience in the scene, which inculded significant amount of public play and events, the percentage of CDers that I encounter is fairly high. Every event will have crossdressers in attendence, for the most part.

However, and that's a big however, until recently, the majority of the crossdressers I would encounter were there simply to be able to dress and spend time in an environment that didn't judge them for that aspect of their personality. There was always a subset that were there because they were submissives in their CD persona, a smaller subset that were Dom, but they would have been there regardless of their attire. For example, my fiancee had a collared submissive who loved to go out crossdressed (and he looked pretty good) but when he played in public it was always as a naked man.

We also knew lots of crossdressers and even a few TG that attended events simply to be able to sit and talk without regard to their appearance. My fiancee used to hold brief classes on improving your female presentation; focusing on movement, voice, mannerisms, etc. Nothing to do with D/s, simply set in that accepting venue.

So if you look at it from the D/s perspective, there seem to be a lot of CDs, but as a percentage of the total CD population, probably no higher than the general population as a whole, regardless of any poorly done research studies.

The short version its been a 20year trip ginafaye is very submissive...pretty much a the role revesal in our home . nothing to crazy but truley we have swapped roles

Interesting question. I personally know GGs as well as CD/TG people who love role playing in bed, on the kitchen table, the hood of the car, etc. An old girl friend just loved to hold her hands over her head and pretend she was bound. That girl could fantasize like no one else. Coming from socialist country where bondage had a whole other meaning, my wife won't even pretend. CAN'T pretend without being terrified.

Funny though, while the old girl friend loved to fantasize of being in bondage, she also liked it when I would do the same. My wife can't even understand why I would want to 'give up control' in a sensual way. Soooooo, we don't.

A CD friend of mine would just love to meet up with another CD who she could role play with. She's just too much of a drab 'buddy' though for us to hook up, though there would be a certain amount of trust there. AND, she's gorgeous enfemme.

Fantasy is one of the most erotic aspects of our sexuality. I say fantasy, because to me and my lovers over the years, it has always been the fantasy of being helpless, in anothers control, and the fantasy of not being able to deny our own feminine sexuality. Being compelled to acknowledge ourselves as desireable, and beautiful and deserving of experiencing sexual fulfillment in the extreme. Not being allowed to deny that which is an intrinsic part of ourselves. Feminine sexuality, acknowledgement and release, be it mine or my lovers, was required and quite fulfilling.

I could say that: Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me, but THAT is flippant and not germane to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kali

I've been active in the D/s scene for more than 30 years. Primarily I've been a Dom male. For the last two years I live almost 24/7 as a submissive female, with my fiancee being the one in charge, in almost all aspects of our lives. The conditions of my current life aren't really germane here, but I'm more than happy to discuss how we live in a private conversation.

That being said, in all my years of experience in the scene, which inculded significant amount of public play and events, the percentage of CDers that I encounter is fairly high. Every event will have crossdressers in attendence, for the most part.

However, and that's a big however, until recently, the majority of the crossdressers I would encounter were there simply to be able to dress and spend time in an environment that didn't judge them for that aspect of their personality. There was always a subset that were there because they were submissives in their CD persona, a smaller subset that were Dom, but they would have been there regardless of their attire. For example, my fiancee had a collared submissive who loved to go out crossdressed (and he looked pretty good) but when he played in public it was always as a naked man.

We also knew lots of crossdressers and even a few TG that attended events simply to be able to sit and talk without regard to their appearance. My fiancee used to hold brief classes on improving your female presentation; focusing on movement, voice, mannerisms, etc. Nothing to do with D/s, simply set in that accepting venue.

So if you look at it from the D/s perspective, there seem to be a lot of CDs, but as a percentage of the total CD population, probably no higher than the general population as a whole, regardless of any poorly done research studies.

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Good post Kali. With my interest and participation in D/s, I have seen the same thing as you. An event, munch or party for those into various BDSM interests are very accepting of crossdressing. So it is a good place for CD's to go just to be out and about in a safe environment. We have a local munch monthly for D/s, BDSM enthusiasts. Te very first time I ever attended, I was dressed fem. I was accepted and made some friends that have no interest in crossdressing. Just a general sense of acceptance. Kind of like... accept my kink and I'll accept yours.
I can't say I live D/s 24/7 since my Domme, the lady I love with all my heart is 1,200 miles away raising 3 granddaughters. But when she was here in Florida, we did live it 24/7. Of course I am proudly still submissive to her and her alone. So in that sense, it is still 24/7.
Oddly, I was a CD since age 11 or so and had zero interest in anything remotely considered BDSM or D/s until much later in life. For me to submit, I have to be in a relationship with the lady. It is far more then just play for me. I am blessed in that I found a loving, caring, dominant woman to serve.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Anne

What's with the Transvestism versus crossdressers? Same damn thing. They are words to describe the same thing. If anything I think people in this thread are confusing transvestitism with fetishism.

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The problem with this is that non medical professionals quite often associate "transvestic fetishist" and the sexual nature of it with the term transvestite. Many CD's also do not like the tone that can come with that term also. I almost never use the term except to describe transvestic fetishism.

I don't have any numbers but in the 5 years I've been on this forum there has been a "feeling" I've gotten that many here enjoy the forced feminization and bondage fantasies. I am one of them. In my male life I do enjoy some mild bondage and have been on both sides of the rope. I think some of it naturally comes from the nature of the damsel in distress that we've seen all of our lives in cartoons and movies.

While I do keep my discussion here on a non-graphic level, I see no reason to avoid any topics because it might "look bad" to outsiders. If I worried about that I would never have stepped out the door. I think more information is always prefered over less. Just my .02

That is a pretty easy answer. Most women are naturally gentle and submissive due to estrogen and oxytocin plus society being more strict on the way girls should behave. The more submissive feminine girls were raised by strong masculine fathers who were great leaders and knew how to take care of her so she has great trust in men. Men are testosterone filled and associated with aggression so its hard to feel submissive when presenting as a male. Thus, CD like to present as a dainty female which makes it much more easier to embrace and feel their submissive side in activities such as bdsm.

Innocent Niya ( we innocent girls are so misunderstood ) said,"Also a lot of CD's that I know were into BDSM before they dressed. Others had an interest in it . When they felt that they could be them selfs and dress, they thought they could be them selfs and enter BDSM."
I'll back that up. Before I accepted interest in dressing I was into bondage play.

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Originally Posted by seanmuscle

That is a pretty easy answer. Most women are naturally gentle and submissive due to estrogen and oxytocin plus society being more strict on the way girls should behave. The more submissive feminine girls were raised by strong masculine fathers who were great leaders and knew how to take care of her so she has great trust in men. Men are testosterone filled and associated with aggression so its hard to feel submissive when presenting as a male.

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You need to get out more. Go spend some time with real world females, & be sure to mention your theory.

Marina quoted a reputable source that stated that bondage and transvestism are frequently associated. I don't doubt that, but the statement is somewhat vague. The association may not be a two-way association. It could be that bondage fans frequently include crossdressing in their bondage activities. That doesn't mean that crossdressers frequently include bondage in their crossdressing activities.
I am a pleasure dresser with a few fetishes, which makes me a fetishistic transvestite or fetishistic crossdresser. I like some of the looks (of the outfits) I've seen of BDSM participants, especially those that include my fetishes. But I'm not into BDSM - it just doesn't ring my bell.
I do have a question, though: is forced feminization a form or type of a BDSM activity? Just curious.
Crossdresser vs transvestite? StephanieAnne provided definitions but said it best herself: "same damn thing"

I should say that I only included the British Med Jourmnal article because earlier in the replies, there had been a call to back up the hunch about BDSM with some hard data. I happen to think there is some truth in it, and I agree that it applies to a specific sub-section (that was NOT a pun :)) of the ladies here. That article was just the first one I came across, in about 30 seconds. So we shouldn't put too much weight on it.

I think I understand and use the term crossdresser to be inclusive of everyone on the continuum from those who get sexual excitement out of wearing the clothes, to those whose attraction is to the image of themselves as a beautiful woman, to those who desire to be interact and be treated as female, to those who feel they are female inside but trapped in a mans body... and probably lots more descriptions. Everything from a boy who masturbates after putting on pantyhose, all the way to the truly transgendered, who are female in every way but physical. To me, the term transvestite says its about only the clothes; not necessarily about the role, or the perception of self. This is probably cutting too fine a line, but it's probably necessary for comparing notes among us girls. I agree that to most of society, transvestism and crossdressing are the same thing.

OOOh... and yes, Nicole, I think forced feminization is very similar to BDSM - the idea of a female image, not in control, yes. I think the 2 enthiusiast 'pie charts' would overlap quite a bit.
MK