Think before you Post???

A recent thread has prompted me to start this thread and I am putting this in MTF because I'm not convinced that the few people who are guilty of this bother with the Loved Ones Area - they probably dont have any loved ones. Unfortunately I've seen this scenario play out several times now and it bothers me a lot.

A new GG comes to this forum, having just learnt or been told that her SO is a Crossdresser. Rather than run for the hills screaming "perv! perv - get out of the house" she has taken the time to search the net and found this site where she comes seeking some sort of understanding, help and advice and dare I say, reassurance that what she has just learnt is not necessarily the end of the world or her marriage. After all this forum advertises itself as A Community for Crossdressers, their Family and Friends.
The newly arrived GG is likely to be confused, upset, angry, hurt, frightened - all or any of those things and maybe more. Whilst nobody really expects erveryone to wrap her in cotton wool and say "there there, everything is going to be fine" I really do not understand why some people think it is ok to reply to this plea for help with a downright nasty, put-down post. Its not clever, or funny, its mean and thoughtless and it does the CD/TG/TS community a serious dis-service.

Does anyone really want it on their conscience that they may have driven away an SO/GG who was trying to understand YOU? who was trying to find a way to make her marriage work in the light of the revelation she has just had dropped on her? when she really was genuinely interested in finding out about what CD'ing was about and how it could fit into her marriage, her life and her relationship with her CD'ing SO?

The responses given to this newly arrived GG/SO could just be the difference between her trying to accept her husband/s CD'ing or not - to offer advice or make comments in reply to these new posters is IMO quite a responsibility so maybe, if you dont have something constructive, encouraging or helpful to say, perhaps it's better to not say anything at all.

Good post, SP. It really felt good when I came here that I had a bunch of people that were willing to talk to me. My SO was in the closet at the time, so I was in the closet with him out of respect for his privacy. A lot of GGs here don't have a lot of people to talk to about these issues out of respect for their SO's privacy. But, a lot of people don't realize that many GGs are just as far in the closet as the CDs that they are close to. For the most part, people here are really nice. But, it seems like there are anti-GG threads every few days, and anti-GG posts on a pretty regular basis. It is a "loud minority" as I like to call it, because those posts grab your attention if you are a GG and you take it to heart. While it's nothing new or surprising to me to see men verbally abusing women for being women, I do get rather irritated when I realize that this place is probably one of the only communities out there for GGs that have a CDing SO that wants privacy. I try to remember that it is probably a very wounded person that would hate on other people based on how they were born, but at the same time dress in the role of which is designated for the people that they are bashing. It's truly a mindf*ck psychologically.

I do believe there is a Genetic Male section for people that do not want female opinions? But, I'm going to assume it's not very popular. The majority here are in touch with their inner female, and don't hold animosity towards her. I'm not sure what is going on with people psychologically that bash on women, but want to dress and "pass" as one. I can assume it's nothing good. And, it does make me sad. But, I'd honestly rather see more people stay here and leave with a positive view on transgenderism. I'm guessing most people here do too. It's a shame, but what are you going to do?

On a side note, sometimes things can be said that are kind of "man bashing." I know I'm guilty of it. But, it's basically like, "Ugh...men...they're all alike! Boys are gross." I think it can be equally hurtful...and, in a way it excuses unwanted male behavior. Basically, if a man is doing something "typical"...and, you write it off as "typical male behavior," you have made an excuse for that behavior. So, in a backwards way, you said it was okay because "that's how men are." But, if you hold up men to a higher standard, and don't excuse any behavior based on gender, I think the behavior becomes less excusable.

So, I think we all kind of can take away from it that we need to treat each other better. This is supposed to be a place that is a bit more immune of gender scrutiny, but there can be animosity both ways. My guess is that we all have been influenced by society more than we are willing to admit, and we didn't leave it at the door when we came here.

I wish we didn't really have to have different "sections"...but, I can understand people that have partners on here wanting to ask things in private. (I can understand it for the GM section and the FAB section...or, all the other closed sections). But, yeah, I once got blasted on here because someone was answering one of my replies like I was a newbie crossdresser...so, I corrected him that I was a GG. Then, I got put on blast that I didn't have GG in my name. I did it because I didn't really feel it was necessary to have that distinction...but, it's not always appreciated. It seems like there aren't many good solutions lol.

I usually roll my eyes when people tell us to just love each other...but, I guess that's what I'm saying :facepalm:

I agree with you Silentpartner. I think I am very sure of the thread for which you are speaking of here. I just now got through reading all of the post on that thread. It was just the one poster that did a nasty unprovoked attack on this new GG member. Yes maybe she may be gone, Just MAY be, I sincerely hope not. It has been 3 or 4 days now since her last activity. We all know who this member is that came in search. It is a tragedy that she apparently read that one demeaning post, and others responded to it. I didn’t post on that thread. But, there was over 109 very positive and uplifting and very educational post’s from so many members helping her to learn more about her CD husband. I personally feel a heartfelt sorrowfulness for what transpired on that thread.

I do want to offer a suggestion though. How about some of the GG’s that have been here a long time and have so much understanding of cd’s and GG’s that are living with news of their husbands, etc. I think because we cannot call her up on the phone, I think it may be a good idea for GG’s on here to send her a PM, offering sincere apologies on behalf of the whole site, and to explain that sometimes a mean post will come up that possibly made her go away. I feel that under the circumstances , that it would be best if only GG’s pm her, for she can relate to gg’s more than cd’s at this point in her life. Members like ReineD, Shannanigans, Eryn, Babeba, yourself as well as other GG’s could send her a PM asking her to come back. I think it should only be GG’s to this, for right now I don’t think she has much faith in us right now.

I hope she did come back onto her thread and see how the offender was dealt with, so she could see that the offender’s post was not the norm here, and she will be given the respect she so deserves. I can say and I think I speak for a majority of cd’s here in the fact that we want her back.



Tara-mxy

I didn't like the post to which you are referring, as I stated in that thread. Other members commented on it before I got there and I believe that they made it clear that the disrespect showed by that one poster was not the consensus of all the members.

I do have one very serious request. Please, please, please, if you see a disrespectful post like that use the little triangular "Report Post" icon at the lower left side of the post to report it. The mods are human and we can't read everything. If a member reports an offending post early we can deal with it quickly and effectively. If it is allowed to remain for a time and is commented on by others it becomes much more difficult to deal with the offensive post without also removing the positive responses from other members.

I'd rather have the offending member mad at me for deleting their post than have the offending member plus a half dozen constructive members mad at me, if you catch my drift!

Thanks, Eryn

EDIT: I note that the OP hasn't been logged on in four or five days, yet the offending post I mentioned was made early this morning. It can't be the reason that the OP left unless she's been reading the forum without logging in.

Tara thanks for your response - I agree that this situation doesnt happen very often but I've seen it before here and it is upsetting.

Your suggestion of the PM's is a good one but unfortunately the particularly GG doesnt have many posts yet and isnt there a restriction on PM's until the 10 post mark? or is this just a one way restriction? I'm not sure of that one.

Generally speaking, this place is great for support and help - my issue really is in the way in which very new members are treated - I do think they need a little TLC to start with.

Shan I can relate to the "man bashing" thing - I'm sure we're all guilty of it to some degree or other - I know I am :brolleyes:
I like to think I'd hold off any sort of bashing if I were addressing someone who was having real issues, marriage/relationship threatening issues.

We'd do best just to love each other - regardless of gender! :hugs:

Eryn, point taken - and I for one think the mods here do a brilliant job keeping the site virtually "nasty" free. I do tend to worry that maybe its just me who finds a certain post offensive so dont hit the report button when perhaps I should.

I don't know the post that is being referred to here, but I hope I am never the one who would do that. I usually take the GG's side ;) However, I know what SP is saying and while it may be only one or two who do it, it becomes a blatant post. There are a lot of angry people in this world and why a few here seem to believe that the TG's are always in the right I will never know. I want the GGs to know that this is a good place to come and talk and that some of us will try and help them understand (as much as we understand which often isn't much). It isn't limited to the Loved Ones section either. And, not to be mean, it usually is a thought out post. It is just hat the thought was directed to be venomous. Us old folks here have learned who to read and who to ignore in that case.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

Good post, SP.

I do believe there is a Genetic Male section for people that do not want female opinions? But, I'm going to assume it's not very popular.

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I do not know which post you are referring to, but I concur with your sentiments. Too many of us care only about ourselves. We ought to show more consideration for the feelings and opinions of the other members, especially the GGs.

When I joined the GM section, I imagined that it would be a place where we could forget our femme sides and instead talk about blokey stuff. But it's not like that at all! So I tend not to post there anymore.

We do get reports of questionable posts that are actually within the rules, but most of the time there is a problem that can be addressed. If you report something that you think is amiss what you are doing is getting a second opinion from a moderator. If we agree that something is wrong we will take action. If not, there is no harm done.

As this is in the MtF section... I think I may have been a 'constructive member' on this (Eryn will put me right!). Sometimes, instincts are to say 'don't get involved', but sometimes action is required and then men (even if they want to be women) will pile in to protect. It is what is in our blood (or rather genes/hormones) - protect.

We do all need to get more emotionally intelligent I think and many thanks to SP for raising this in a sensitive and reflective manner. I also think Shan nailed a few key issues as usual... I have learned a lot from reflecting on this and this thread has helped me a lot in terms of self-awareness.

:)

You sure hit the nail on the head some times a stupid comment can be the differance
between a happy ending or a sad ending.

I recall the thread SP is referring to and a couple of replies that I thought were less than helpful or constructive. It would be nice, but probably wishful thinking, to ask that everyone who comments to reflect for a moment, rather than offering a harsh, hypercritical or deragatorymcomment. I know how tempting it can be to offer up a glib one liner...but as in the case of a new GGAlooking for help, that's probably the least helpful and potentially most destructive possible response.

Brilliant post Silent. To add my thoughts about threads posted by new GG members that came here for help, education and someone to talk to. I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he. It really puts me off when I see that in responses from otherwise well meaning people. I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

I'm not sure I've seen the offending post yet, but think i know which thread you are talking about. If so, I know that I and a few others told her that she had come to the right place if she was confused because we ALL are here! I hope that you didn't think this was offensive? My thoughts were to reply with a light touch and some humor, and who knows, maybe give her a smile - something that she could clearly use.

Thank you for posting this. You're so right.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

I do have one very serious request. Please, please, please, if you see a disrespectful post like that use the little triangular "Report Post" icon at the lower left side of the post to report it. The mods are human and we can't read everything.

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I COMPLETELY forgot this button exists!! Uhhhh...this was a helpful reminder lol. ((Ashamed I forget silly things)).

I don't know which post you are referring to but I certainly know the story. My SO had a similar thing occur. She asked a legitimate question and some responses were downright nasty. A nice way to help someone struggling with this stuff.

This forum is a pretty well oiled machine but maybe something like this would work: I'm on another forum and they have a "Kid Gloves" section where the rules are clearly to "make nice." Maybe something like that here???

GG's Always Welcome!
Debby

I also hate to see the uncaring and selfish posts, but I agree with Eryn. Surely everyone understands that this is the internet and there are bound to be one or two people who just don't get it, to put it nicely. I should think that most new members would be able to see this especially when other members take exception to the off-putting posts, plus there are over one hundred positive responses.

Still, I don't blame you for being upset and wanting to air this out.

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Originally Posted by Debglam

This forum is a pretty well oiled machine but maybe something like this would work: I'm on another forum and the have a "Kid Gloves" section where the rules are clearly to "make nice." Maybe something like that here???

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Our Loved Ones section has traditionally served this purpose, but new members don't always think to post there especially if they want to address their questions to CDers.

OK............ATTENTION

All mean people report to my office at once, I will deal with you fiercly and appropriately. And I will disscuss this with your parents.:heehee:
Play nice and love and respect one another
That will be all.......


Love this little doodley

:Playnice:

Auntie Thera

Unfortunately, I don't think exhortations are going to do much good.

I've noticed that virtually all male-dominated groups (whether on-line or RL) tend to have a certain level of sexism and misogyny which goes up if the topic of women comes up, and even more so if an identifiable woman participates. This forum (M2F CD) is no exception. (See Shananigans' post.) The talk of getting in touch with one's "feminine side" doesn't seem to translate into CDers' being more likely to ask themselves how their behavior might come across to real-life women.

(I'm not saying that every M2F CDer here is being sexist. Lots of them don't ever post sexist stuff, and many will openly disagree with the more blatant comments. But that's true of lots of other male-dominated forums, too.)

The grosser expressions of sexism, etc., can be contained to some extent by moderation, and that seems to be how CD.com is handling it. But that does not get at the root of the problem: men who have grown up in a society that trains males in sexist attitudes from their earliest years. There's a lot of stuff here that is sexist, but not so bad that the moderators feel justified in swinging the ban-hammer, and which is so commonplace that even if people notice it, it doesn't occur to most of them to say anything. This creates a climate in which a certain level of sexism seems normal, and which gives the misogynists the idea that more blatant stuff will find a receptive audience.

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

Brilliant post Silent. To add my thoughts about threads posted by new GG members that came here for help, education and someone to talk to. I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he. It really puts me off when I see that in responses from otherwise well meaning people. I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

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Very good point, BrandyJ.

I thought the posts in question were just plain offensive but not for the same reasons. I think it was just one poster not having the manners to keep whatever frustration he has with women to himself. This forum is far from a sexist or misogynistic place and I don't think tarring the forum with such a broad brush is appropriate. Not that all the posts were sensitive to Miss M, but most were not like that.

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Originally Posted by Asche

Unfortunately, I don't think exhortations are going to do much good.

I've noticed that virtually all male-dominated groups (whether on-line or RL) tend to have a certain level of sexism and misogyny which goes up if the topic of women comes up, and even more so if an identifiable woman participates. This forum (M2F CD) is no exception. (See Shananigans' post.) The talk of getting in touch with one's "feminine side" doesn't seem to translate into CDers' being more likely to ask themselves how their behavior might come across to real-life women.

(I'm not saying that every M2F CDer here is being sexist. Lots of them don't ever post sexist stuff, and many will openly disagree with the more blatant comments. But that's true of lots of other male-dominated forums, too.)

The grosser expressions of sexism, etc., can be contained to some extent by moderation, and that seems to be how CD.com is handling it. But that does not get at the root of the problem: men who have grown up in a society that trains males in sexist attitudes from their earliest years. There's a lot of stuff here that is sexist, but not so bad that the moderators feel justified in swinging the ban-hammer, and which is so commonplace that even if people notice it, it doesn't occur to most of them to say anything. This creates a climate in which a certain level of sexism seems normal, and which gives the misogynists the idea that more blatant stuff will find a receptive audience.

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

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Ok, I've been gone and haven't read the GG Thread or the single Poisoned Post mentioned here. But, I'm curious!

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

Sounds like a: Tempest in a teapot?

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

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That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he.

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Better yet, refer to her husband as "your spouse" as referring to her as "him" or "he" is also insensitive.

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Originally Posted by Miranda-E

That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

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If that is the case, the member did something that was wrong. Whether or not is is an overreaction depends upon your point of view. Disrespect of others, particularly those who might be fragile, is not something to encourage.

Eryn

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Originally Posted by Asche

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

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Wow, what a great post! The whole thing rang true to me and I thank you for posting it.

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Originally Posted by Janice Winona

This forum is far from a sexist or misogynistic place and I don't think tarring the forum with such a broad brush is appropriate. Not that all the posts were sensitive to Miss M, but most were not like that.

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Janice, I don't take it that Asche was accusing the forum of being sexist. It's just one thing out of many that is difficult to get rid of when one is socialized as a male and it might even be difficult to pin-point some of the more subtle, inculcated beliefs and attitudes as being sexist. I guess. This will not apply to everyone here, as Asche pointed out, and although few members here are blatantly sexist, others can still have subtly sexist attitudes. An example are the CDers who feel more feminine when they do housework or when they wear hosiery and heels, since housework no longer falls strictly in a woman's domain, and many women today don't wear hose and heels.

Also, I think the degree of sexism has abated with the younger generation. Genetic males born to women who believe in feminist ideals I'm guessing will think of women differently than someone who was raised say more than 30-40 years ago? I gather the person who made the comment we're all talking about is now retired.

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Ok, I've been gone and haven't read the GG Thread or the single Poisoned Post mentioned here. But, I'm curious!

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

Sounds like a: Tempest in a teapot?

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In a normal frame of mind, not many people, if any, would take one nasty post out of 109 seriously - but when a GG comes here, having just learnt of her partners' CD'ing, she isnt in a normal frame of mind, the chances are she is in a blind panic, stunned, afraid - there is a time and place for people to air their greivances with GG's but IMO that place isnt in reply to a newly arrived GG - at least we could give the poor woman a chance to get to know the place and find out that in fact, most of the people here are rather great!

I started this thread not purely on the basis of this one particular instance but because I've seen it a few times now - and Debglam's post above bears this out.

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That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

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it wasnt a veiled attempt at anything - I was putting my views across, which was, when I last looked, just as much my right on here as anyone else's. Judging by the further posts here, it seems there are others who agree with me. If you dont agree, that's also your right.

RS it is a human trait that we will remember one negative amongst a hundred positives. Sometimes it is so difficult to remove the hurt caused by the negative despite all the support one can offer. When one is already sensitized to what may be considered an unusual situation, the wound takes longer to heal.

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Originally Posted by clayfish

When I joined the GM section, I imagined that it would be a place where we could forget our femme sides and instead talk about blokey stuff. But it's not like that at all! So I tend not to post there anymore.

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I'll say Ditto to that with a capital D!

Added:
I was going to zip my lip but then realised that zip broke a long time ago...

If we don't discuss issues, then nothing changes. Out of a negative we can hopefully build on this and make it a positive.
While I also agree the mods and admins do a great a job here and I understand they can't veto every post, it seems some posts are let slip when others are jumped on.

For instance, I have seen posts where they belittle, insult and effectively dish CD's. However, if a similar vein of post was said on another forum, other than the CD forum, I dare say it would jumped all over on and deleted.

Sometimes I feel that because I don't identify as a female, then I'm seen as a guy, and guys are generally expected to be manly, so these thing shouldn't hurt our feelings. IDK if that's the mindset, but sometime it feels like that.

Most of us take exception when women are put down, insulted or otherwise talked about in a condescending way. Especially the GG's on this site. We love them, and for some of us, our male protective mode is switched on. Being insensitive is one of those male traits that is hurtful, mean and ignorant.

I think I know the thread you are talking about but maybe I missed that one post.
The GG that posted the thread seemed to me to be interested in learning what her husband was going thru and was just looking for help.Most gave it from what I read.
The GG's here I respect so much and I tend to agree with most of them,not always mind you but most of the time.
I have to go with Doc Sherry and say the one bad apple theme fits here.

It's good to see the GG in question on the original thread has indeed returned .......good news!!.. glad to see she wasn't scared off for good.

However, I do feel we need to take care with new GGs who come on here looking for informaton, and comfort, to help themselves gain an understanding of what CD'ing is and what it involves in its multitude of different facets.

Afterall, if a GG is frightened away without any positive resolve to her understanding there won't be just one person with their life turned completely upside down, there will also be a husband CD'er who may well find his marriage at risk...or a husband whose Cd'ing needs get put to one side and not satisfied for the sake of retaining a "happy" marriage.

Not one but two peoples lives potentially in a mess, when the GG was at one stage doing her best to prevent these problems.....what is this forum for if not to help people in this situation.

Hello, SP! Excellent thread, and perhaps one that deserves to be a sticky.

It's raised a question in my mind, something that I've thought about before. Is this MTF forum really the right place for a GG to come to in order to get acquainted with CD/TG/TS issues? I ask for reasons such as are given in this post:

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". . . I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

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All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

A month ago or so I came out to my son. I was thinking about referring him to this forum, but I decided not to. He's been used to seeing me in a certain role for a lot of years. Suddenly getting on this forum and seeing me in a totally different role, thinking and talking in a different way, it could be quite upsetting for him. (E.g., I told him that on this forum I have a female name, and he didn't even ask me what it was. He didn't want to know.) Cisgender people who are new to the transworld have no idea what's in store for them.

I'm not at all suggesting that GG's shouldn't be made welcome here. Of course they should, and anybody who treats them with disrespect is pretty shabby in my book. But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call? What I did for my son was to find a website and forum for children of trans parents. Whether he's ever followed up on that I don't know. But I thought it would be good for him to talk to people who are in the same situation that he is. And I'm wondering whether, for a GG's own good, she shouldn't start out by talking to other GG's to get an introduction to the transworld.

Just a thought.

Best wishes, Annabelle

No argument, it was a very bad thing to do, and I suspect that particular respondent got punished for it. I would characterize The Response as someone trying to be flippant and cleaver, and remember we have a beloved member (But, not the perpetrator in this situation) around here who does that all the time! Perhaps that sends a message to others! Most of our members encourage her, and call for more. This Response was a very bad idea with someone so new, and I would hope that it's an anomaly that won't be repeated.

Please ladies, don't paint us all with a very large brush. Yes, there are times when we "just don't get it." We spent a lot of years looking at The World with a male perspective. But, we usually try and be supportive and empathetic. I think it's useful to remember that she got (so far) 108 informative and supportive comments. That means our Troll represents way less than 1%. In the future, we would like to see it come out ZERO!

I'd like to caution all members, new and old, "Be very careful with newbies!" "They are easily bruised, and can quickly be driven away." "It reflects badly on us, and the larger community of Trans People." "We lose, they lose, and we just don't need those kinds of hassles!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?

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Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives? I believe this is the largest one there is.

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information. I've posted on that site a few times to say that not all CDers are selfish, fetishistic, cheating boozers. I was accused of being a CDer. :straightface:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

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It is not difficult for GGs to see genetic men being feminine, especially when they know they are in a crossdresser forum. Really, GGs get along well with anyone who is sensitive and nurturing. The difficulty is in seeing very macho attitudes hidden behind the pretense of being female. I'm not saying that every CDer on this site is this type of macho, but there are many posts where you can virtually see the testosterone flying out and these are usually the posts that are unkind and insensitive, or the posts that stereotype women.

I can say that this has been a great forum ..it has helped me understand a few things and have made a few friends along the way .... GG will gain loads from here and the majority of the forum members i have read posts from have been nothing but helpful and open armed ...... xxxxx

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives?

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Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

I'm not trying to sound unwelcoming to GG's. I'm just wondering if for their own sake it wouldn't be better for them to start with others in their own situation. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information.

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When you say "non-accepting", I assume you mean non-accepting of CDing? Yes, that would make things difficult. As for accurate information, they'll get all sorts of information here, won't they? Hopefully they will get what they're looking for.

I don't know. Maybe there's no good solution to the problem. Or maybe this particular forum is the best solution. I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?

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Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

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What's the point of that, she can still read the whole board and all members can post in there.

Well said Sandra ..... xxxxxxx

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

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Well, if you want your son to know what the CDing is all about both in a universal sense (all the different ways there are to CD) and what it means to you personally, then he should join, if he is interested of course. He may not like what he reads here, but if he wants to learn there really isn't any alternatives.

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Originally Posted by BilliebabeGG

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.

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It's clear to me I'm not expressing myself well at all here. I'm not at all suggesting there should be any segregation. That's the last thing I'd want. And of course I think it would be good for a cisgender person to talk directly to transpeople to get their point of view. That's exactly what we transpeople need. Dialogue to promote understanding.

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

So I was wondering if some GG's might initially be uncomfortable here. If they're not, that's fine with me. If they feel comfortable straightaway, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. I suppose I'm speaking purely from my own personal experience. I didn't think my son would be comfortable here. The fact that since I came out to him he's asked me nothing about TGism is an indication that I was right about that. But if nobody else fits into our situation, OK, I have no problem with that.

I think that if I were a GG, I'd want to go to other GG's first. But if GG's in general don't feel that way, I have no problem with that.

Annabelle

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

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Originally Posted by Sandra

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

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I don't believe in sugar coating things, either. My son hasn't asked me any questions yet. When he does, I'll give him the truth.

But as an example, on the day I came out to him, I told him I dressed, told him what it meant to me, etc. But he didn't ask any questions about how I dress--what specifically do I wear, do I put on makeup, etc. Now it was clear to me that he was very uncomfortable with that. He was Ok with the idea of TGism in general, but some of the specifics bothered him a bit.

So it appears to me he needs some time to ease into the situation. I don't have to tell him everything straightaway. I can give him information as he asks for it. Don't sugar-coat it, be straight up about it, but let him take his time, go at his own pace as he feels comfortable. This is what I meant by the notion that some people might find our MTF forum a bit overwhelming at first.

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

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Yes, I'd agree totally with this. And this is what I hope to achieve with my son. Hopefully some time soon he'll be more at ease with this. It's a lot to take on board. Let him approach it in a way that's comfortable for him.

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that. Usually I think it's more jealousy that women get to wear hose, heels, etc. and the yearning that a CD would have to wear those things may come across as sexist. I try to only speak for myself on things like this, and my attitude is more "why wouldn't women want to wear these things" rather than "women should wear . . ." if that makes any sense. (And yes, I know the answer to my own question. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Wow, what a great post! The whole thing rang true to me and I thank you for posting it.



Janice, I don't take it that Asche was accusing the forum of being sexist. It's just one thing out of many that is difficult to get rid of when one is socialized as a male and it might even be difficult to pin-point some of the more subtle, inculcated beliefs and attitudes as being sexist. I guess. This will not apply to everyone here, as Asche pointed out, and although few members here are blatantly sexist, others can still have subtly sexist attitudes. An example are the CDers who feel more feminine when they do housework or when they wear hosiery and heels, since housework no longer falls strictly in a woman's domain, and many women today don't wear hose and heels.

Also, I think the degree of sexism has abated with the younger generation. Genetic males born to women who believe in feminist ideals I'm guessing will think of women differently than someone who was raised say more than 30-40 years ago? I gather the person who made the comment we're all talking about is now retired.

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Those of us who have been doing this for years should have a higher awareness of how things might appear when replying to a new member. One concern I have is that there seem to be a lot of people here (or maybe just a few who post a lot?) who are utterly convinced that there is an automatic progression from cross-dressing to changing gender by surgery. This nonsense is not helped by 'jokes' such as "What is the difference between a cross-dresser and a trans-sexual? About two years". We all have to accept that there is a great range of reasons for cross-dressing and avoid appearing to impose our own reasons on others. My only progressions have been in skill and confidence (and, I fear, the amount of money I spend on womenswear).

In my post I mentioned emotional intelligence.

I am as guilty of 'firing off' as anyone. The MtF section is the default setting so anyone coming here arrives here. For me we need to do one of two things... we get wise and treat everyone on this thread as potential newcomers and as we would meeting anyone new in real life... OR... we establish a different thread for incoming members... a bit like Introductions, but a 'next level' and we set the rules there a little more aggressively... just a thought... classic consultant's advice... add another layer.. that will be $1000 please?

I find it personally unacceptable that arriving GGs are given a hard time. I also find it unacceptable that anyone with relatively few posts is given a hard time. people come here for help and support. For God's sake this should be a core value of the community that we support everyone who comes here for support?

Or am I just deluded and past my sell by date.... oh well...

xx

Taking a comment a bit out of context:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way.

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Not all of us.

This is a petty common assumption here, but it's worth remembering that not all of the posters or lurkers here think of themselves as "girls," either. There's a silent minority here of people who just dress, without feeling in any sense female by doing it. There are all kinds of people here, and talking as if everyone is a certain way tends to discourage those who aren't that way from participating.

I think it's a useful -- and mind-broadening -- exercise to ask yourself how what you are doing and what others are doing might come across to people who aren't like you.

(Personally, I think it would be a dreadful bore if everyone were like me.)

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Originally Posted by Janice Winona

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that....

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I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

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Oh this is an excellent point and I totally agree with Annabelle, though probably not for the same reason.

Why do CD's have two personalities? I realize that I might be a bad example, but when I was cross dressing I didn't have a feminine act. I've lamented the girly cutesie act by so many on this forum since the beginning. If my man came out to me as a CD, I would be anxious about it but if I was into him, than I would want to see it. If he came out prancing and mincing like a 7 year old at a tea party, it would be over. However, if he came out as himself and just trying to be graceful and comport himself in a more feminine way, than we might be able to work something out. Especially if he looks sexy in his little skirt. Or even better, he loves dressing up but he still stomps around like a lumberjack, that might be kinda hot too. I guess the main thing is, I would be freaked out if he wanted or had a fem identity, with a real name and femmy voice and mannerisms.

If I found out my big tough guy (that's how I like 'em) was hiding a secret life and giggling about her panty collection, I would be extremely supportive, but let's face it. That's not hot.

Asche, as I said in the part of my answer that wasn't quoted (not calling you out on that at all, just in case this sounds that way), I know the answer to my question. And you'll have to trust me that I know a lot about discrimination, intent, "sexist tropes" (I did have to look that term up, but it is similar enough to what I would have said) to believe me when I say know what I speak of. Do most members here look at the world through the eyes of a man? Of course they do. But sexist? Not even close. Go to any college football message board if you want to see what that's about. I know for an absolute fact that I don't have a sexist or racist bone in my body, I wouldn't survive in a family with three very strong-willed women (even if two of them are currently still in elementary school) if I were. But back to the original point: I just don't see the sexism that others might see when people say "i feel more feminine when I clean the house in a skirt, heels and hose." The same people say similar things when they wear yoga pants and a sports bra when they work out, talk about fixing the family car in a spaghetti strap top, or getting sawdust in their "cleavage" when they are doing carpentry projects. But as always, that's just my opinion and I recognize that I may be the dissenting view on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Asche

I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.

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