“I like to wear women’s clothes...”

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

It’s too bad that you can’t say, “I like wearing women’s clothes…” and just leave it at that, but I guess this simple statement must really baffle women. I think it’s a good, honest, truthful ice-breaker, a first step towards a longed-for discussion about crossdressing. It’s also a good litmus test to see if you should go any further, or withdraw back from whence you came. Watch those facial expressions!

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[SIZE="2"]The few times I have told people about my crossdressing, I’ve either said, “I’m a transvestite,” or “I’m a crossdresser,” but what I should have said was, “I like to wear women’s clothes,” and get right to the heart of the matter, neatly sidestepping all the terminology and labels that society inconveniently provides...

Women’s clothes have always fascinated me, and I eventually wore them, becoming a MtF crossdresser by doing so. In my case, MtF is a bit misleading, because I just put on women’s clothing, as an end in itself, and no transformation takes place. I look infinitely better, I feel much better, and I like how I feel, but I am still just a boy in girl’s clothes. The truth is I worship the clothes, I believe they are imbued with magic, and, no matter how uncomfortable they may be at times, I believe in their power to heal me. I am a prime example of a fetishist. If truth is beauty, then I create a truth I can barely begin to understand by wrapping myself in the beautiful...

A lot of this magic comes about because of the fact that I, a male, am not supposed to be wearing women’s clothing. I never fail to get a “buzz” out of crossdressing, and I’m not talking about a periodic sexual thrill. No, there’s some kind of regained innocence, or self-made vulnerability going on, whereby I wear something completely different and enjoy that difference. The tactile sensations created by women’s clothes are transcendental, and I go on a “trip” of sorts when I feel something really nice touching my skin. I become more aware of everything during my voyage, and even my drab male surroundings seem extraordinary – it’s pure magic, created by the simplest of means...

You sometimes hear someone admit that they have “experimented” with drugs at sometime in their life, but few would say, “I have experimented with crossdressing.” I could add a worn-out clichéd phrase like, “I'm trying to find myself,” but I’m just wearing women’s clothes and enjoying the experience. I like it when female underwear is hugging me, and I like it when my legs are encased in super-smooth hosiery. I like it when my waist is accented, when my chest is enhanced, and when my knees are peeking out from under the hem of a skirt. I especially like it when air comes spiraling up my legs, now open to such sensations, and my masculine urges shrink away to nothing. It is a home-made magic show, pure and simple...

But, what woman could possibly understand this simple notion: “I like to wear women’s clothes?” Surely the poor guy has a mental or emotional problem, and he needs help to correct it, or he thinks he’s a woman, or he wants to be a woman. When I came out to my girlfriend many years ago, the first thing she asked me was, “Do you want to become a woman?” I said no. I tried to explain that I just like to wear women’s clothing, which seemed to put her off a bit, i.e. there is no decent explanation for what I do, so I must definitely have a problem of some sort. She didn’t want a man with “a problem,” so we drifted apart. Is it a problem? Not in my view, but how can you accurately describe this innocent magic you feel, time after time, by simply donning the “wrong” clothes? It may be impossible to do so. Do you believe in impossible things?

Even here, on a site for crossdressers, I must BE something. I can’t just crossdress. I can’t just enjoy the act of dressing-up as a pleasant experience. Maybe crossdressing is too personal to share with others. It defies description, after all, and it is NOT self-explanatory. I think from now on I will say, if asked, “I like to wear women’s clothes...” and leave it at that. Let them figure it out. I mean, that’s how it came about, and that’s how it still is. Magical crossdressing has sustained me, and will continue to do so. When I’m getting ready to die, please dress me up in my finest femme things, and don’t ask any questions – I know nobody will understand how it feels, or what it means to me...

They say all you need is LOVE, but I need a little magic (via crossdressing) as well. How about you? :thinking: [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]
Women’s clothes have always fascinated me, ...[/SIZE]

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Why?

There are allowances for different human preferences. Most people will not need to know the psychological motive for preferring apples over oranges, or the color cream vs. sage. It is acknowledged that we all make choices when it comes to eating fruit and painting our living room walls, and so we develop preferences.

It is, however, unusual to want to stretch the gender boundaries, since the majority of people are content in their genders. In fact, it does not occur to 97%-99% of the population to stretch those boundaries in any way. A person's gender is a fundamental building block of who they are, just as binary gender has been fundamental to our survival as a species since time began.

Years ago before the topic of gender or gender dysphoria was researched, it was believed that men were men and women were women, except some men did odd things such as put on women's clothes. The only psychological explanation for men who "did" this "thing" was that they were deviant men. Now, we know better. So when you tell someone that you crossdress, the first question that comes to mind is "why". Most people have a sense that there is a motive for doing this and it is deeper than a mere preference for something that everyone else does, such as choosing a fruit or a paint color for bedroom walls.

Even ancient cultures knew that it was more than just a preference for clothes. They referred to transpersons as "two-spirits", and not "he-who-dons-the-female-tunic".

For me the clothes have lost their magic. They don't seem to be able to conjure up their glamors anymore. I guess it's my fault really over the years I despised practicing my incantations and I would lament the mixing the potions. I would spend far more time gazing out my tower window at the villagers below wanting to throw off my arcane self and enjoy a mundane life with the townsfolk. In truth and don't think I would've made a very good wizard but in my own mind's eye I can be the master sorcerer rather than the apprentice I will always be.

I respect you Freddie and your practice of magic I hope it brings you continued joy.

That was very well put and great to read, thanks for sharing :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Why?

A person's gender is a fundamental building block of who they are, just as binary gender has been fundamental to our survival as a species since time began.

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Reine,

I believe that you should have stated that Binary Sex has been fundamental to our survival as a species since time began. We know that gender is a spectrum and is not binary. Sex is binary as in either male of female, but gender is not.

Jamie, my point was that until recent times, no one realized this.

I think if it was only about the clothes you could put on an article of woman's clothing say a dress and you would be happy. For some that might be all that want, but for me its more about temporarily having a female persona. I like to think that being a CD makes me more in touch with woman, but who knows? There are probably a myriad of reasons one would dress, but I know I've given up trying to figure out why or even more caring why, just that I like it and want to do it occasionally.

Woman's clothing has a significant amount of variation and style that is just not present in men's clothing. It is completely evocative of the feminine mystique when paired up with the undergarments, the hair, shoes and other accessories. Its the whole experience i need.

I think women have a different relationship with their bodies than men do.

They do not seem to have the same "physical sensitivity" that is displayed in "sensitive men"

There is almost a universal "hardness" to women, a type of toughness that I think nature designed into them to insure species survival because they carry life inside them.

Think about all the things women have to deal with related to their bodies that leave them needing to "shut down" from sensory overload. Practically everything about a womans body results in discomfort or down right pain so their "mind" stops loving the "sensual" as an experience just between them and their bodies. Between their mind and their senses.

From the discomfort of their bodies their minds are dulled to sensual experiences as a relationship they have with their bodies. The sensual must be brought to the woman because it is difficult for her to find it on her own but perfectly natural for the man to find on his own.

This is not a problem for a man because his body does not usually create discomfort except in sickness or injury. This allows for a certain sensitivity to grow inside him as the relationship he has with his senses, so his body and out into the world "IF" he was born with the capability.

What has been created for men to be used by women is a perfect place to experience and express all this sensitivity in sensual ways.

Only the clothing that has an element of beauty as "experienced by the senses" and experienced as "sensual" has appeal.

The crossdressing clothing articles are usually separate from the clothing that both sexes could and do wear.

Beauty creates the pull toward beauty by the male which originally came out of nature as a movement toward the female as sex but the man is more than just sex when he has a heightened "sensitivity" to life.

In my opinion this sensitivity comes from the male not being "masculinized" to the full extent nature is capable of so he has the sensitivity a female would be capable of if she did not live in the body she does that causes her so much grief along with nature making her ferocious to protect her offspring.

The sensitive male has the best of both worlds. He experiences what a female could but does'nt because of her "body and womb" and avoids being a slave to natures prerogatives that the fully masculinized male is which is usually expressed as some form of aggression.

The sensitive male lives between the female and male, both of which cannot experience his sensitivity but for different reasons.

This makes him an object of scorn because he is not understood by those who he stands between which are the men and women he shares the world with.

This sensitivity comes from the original female brain that he had before it was changed into the masculine brain (masculinized) so the sensitivity creates a "spectrum" of the "experience of femininity as sensitivity" in the male to the degree he was not "masculinized" in the womb.

Nature is the soil that crossdressing is "naturally" born from along with everything on the TG spectrum that the brain experiences to the degree it was not masculinized.

In my opinion there is a difference between a crossdresser and someone who crossdresses.

A crossdresser is a "male as identity" because his sensitivity is limited by his brain having been masculinized to the point he cannot accept a female identity because he naturally did not adopt a female identity as a child and resents the implications of someone referring to him as otherwise.

Crossdressing is also used as an act of self discovery along with the expression of this sensitivity to discover how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I have the same relationship to clothes as you do Freddy because my sensitivity is very similar to your own. The difference is my brain was not masculinized so I could not accept a male identity as being natural to me and rejected it in childhood by the adoption of a female identity and than suppressed it only to discover it later when I felt "safe" to do so.

The female brain when "masculinized" in the womb becomes "insensitive" (non-female) to the degree it is masculinized. This is natures way of preparing the male for battle.

All mammals start out with a female brain structure that is than changed so all men started out as women.

It is completely natural for men to want to be women because in a sense they are, except they are not to the degree they were changed.

Identity is adopted as an expression of the structure of the brain immersed in its environment and tension is created when this structure runs counter to what the environment dictates as "truth"

Hi Frederique,
Your post is, once again, excellent and thought provoking. I identify with everything you said. When I came out to my wife in August, my approach was exactly what you have come to - my exact words were that "I like to wear women's clothes. I can't explain exactly why, but I just do enjoy it." I told her that I did not have any desire to be a girl or to be anything less than the man I am and the man she married. I also love being a man and will never want to change this part of me. I just want to enjoy wearing the clothes because they feel great and what is fascinating is all the different styles and colors they come in. Men's clothes are just boring.
I am now frequently wearing panties and my dresser drawer is slowly becoming more panties than undies. It's a slow step along the way, but I am not going backwards from this point. In time I hope she will come to accept it, but this, I fear, may never eventuate. Anyways, I will enjoy my journey and I am glad you are enjoying yours.
Di

Thanks, Freddy. When I joined this forum I said I was a crossdresser. But "I like to wear woman's clothes" is closer to the truth as well as it explains my own feelings. Thanks. You done good, girl.

Ineke

I understand why someone who just enjoys wearing women clothes might object to a label that implied some other motivation. its your choice to describe yourself in a manner that most accurately reflects your motivations.

I'm perfectly happy to accept the label. 'Transgendered'. The clothes don't mean a great deal to me...I hope to look nice, but there's no rush or thrill in texture or style. Evidently it's something within me that wants to be expressed outwardly through my selection of attire. But it doesn't even start with garments. Like most of us, I do what I can to modify my shape to appear more womanly, and employ make up to further Soften and feminize my appearance. So, for me it's not really about the clothes.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Why?

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[SIZE="2"]Because they (women’s clothes) are denied to me, or us – as soon as they tell you can’t have something, or fancy something, you wind up wanting it. I suppose you’re implying that there is transgendered something in my genetic makeup? I’m trying to give TG a rest this time around, OK? I just like beautiful things, and, when you’re expected to wear drab male stuff, these things will happen and do happen. The difference in clothing is quite noticeable and alluring, much like a siren’s call...

Besides that, I thought I already explained WHY in the OP... :straightface:[/SIZE]

Ah. Jock straps are denied to me. I still don't want 'em. :p

KellyJameson - I sorely disagree with your statement that women are not sensual. I wish you had been a fly on the wall throughout my lifetime when I made love with a partner.

what a wonderful read. I fully enjoyed it and it sums things up. I just wish everyone else could be fine with it, We would be much happier. Sara

"I wish you had been a fly on the wall throughout my lifetime when I made love with a partner".

"The sensual must be brought to the woman because it is difficult for her to find it on her own."

( with a partner) You confirmed what I said Reine.

I wasn't precise. I didn't want to divulge my entire sexual experience and I tried to be as vague as possible, while letting you that women are, indeed, sensual. :)

Nicely written, Frederique!

An interesting question, perhaps, is from your perspective, is it actually clothes, or the construction of beauty in the self? That you happen to use clothes to achieve it, and that you perceive some clothes as beautiful or not could be ancilliary.

The thing is, if that's the case, it's really something that people can understand quite well, both male and female. Some people tattoo themselves, for example, in an attempt to reconstruct themselves as art -- obviously, not all tattoos are for this purpose ;). A lot of the motivation in fashion in the construction of an artistic sensibility through a model and clothes, but for many designers, they themselves are a tapestry upon which to paint as well. I don't think women will find that necessarily hard to understand if they see it from that perspective.

So, some people will use a model such as these to create an image or something artistic: http://jezebel.com/5973202/mac-put-a...-its-beautiful or http://style.time.com/2012/12/31/fas...s-elle-serbia/

However, it should not be surprising at all that one might wish to be recreated in their own aspect -- to be part of the art that they create.

Of course, you needn't explain further. And if it was more the clothes, it doesn't invalidate your point of view. Some people like certain things.

I respond more because the particular artistic view is one I've seen in people over the years in many different forms, including CDs, drag queens, genderf*cks, etc., but also in areas completely divorced from gender.

It is magic, Frederique. I always feel it while I'm making the transformation to Amy...there's a certain point where I look in the mirror and I no longer see my male self. Instead, I see a wonderfully female Amy, putting the finishing touches on her look.

- Amy

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Ah. Jock straps are denied to me. I still don't want 'em.

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[SIZE="2"]Ha. Ha. :sigh:

I apologize for the inadequate response to your WHY? Question – I dislike “posting on the fly.” There are many things that are attractive, or become attractive, because a male isn’t supposed to have them, or do them, or admire them. Being a GG, how can you appreciate how a male feels about forbidden things? I could very well fold ideas about sexual practices, or religion, or any of a number of taboo topics into this discussion, and easily derail the topic, simply because certain subjects are denied to us on this forum. There are many examples I could give about a male being attracted to something forbidden – just trying to “keep things clean,” in this instance, OK? In the case of your non-beloved jockstraps, you’re not missing anything – shall I give you a list of female things I can do without or don’t particularly care for? That would be a list of indeterminable length…

Meanwhile, your WHY? response just verifies what I already stated in the OP – women, or GG’s if you prefer, are baffled if a man says, “I like to wear women’s clothes.” It’s not an easy thing to explain, which is the very thing I was trying to get across in the OP. Surely it can’t be THAT simple, correct? Well, it IS that simple, in many instances, to the point that any further explanation is unnecessary or injurious. I mean, I like ice cream – do I have to explain why? It’s creamy, sweet, and cold, and it makes me feel good, OK? I LOVE how that dress looks – hey, I can actually WEAR it, and see how it feels. Luckily I’m not a slave to the “correct” M/F gender dynamic that keeps someone (a male, in this case) from trying something forbidden by society. Some things, by their very nature, require imagination…

It’s too bad that women are baffled by ideas that should be simple to understand, but I think they are trying their best to keep things on the rails, moving forward, to a predetermined result, and their innate bafflement feeds into this – they are the sentinels of societal precepts, and anything that rocks the boat is suspect. Also, I think sensuality is the province of women, and we MtF crossdressers must represent a breach of the “borders” that females have constructed around them. Really, honestly, and with all due sincerity, “I just like to wear women’s clothes.” It’s nothing to worry about, and my aim is NOT to keep women endlessly confused…
:straightface:[/SIZE]

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…women are, indeed, sensual.

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[SIZE="2"]I agree. I learned all about sensuality from women. The clothes certainly help… :clap:[/SIZE]

When my wife and I had one of our early conversations concerning my desire to wear women's clothing, she accepted the idea I liked the feel of the nylon fabric of slips and nightgowns. She could not wrap her head around the idea I liked to wear a bra since I had nothing to "pack into it." Good point? There must be more to it than just liking to wear women's clothing.

So, as I sit here banging on the keyboard I'm fully dressed with a wig, bra enhanced with home made forms, panties, slip, hosiery, heels, dress. I've given up trying to figure all of this out. I guess figuring it out is now irrelevant to my earthly existence.

If my wife were to ask me the same question she asked three decades ago, I still would not be able to tell her why I choose to wear women's clothing. I feel at easy and totally without stress. That being said, I get the same feeling wearing a pair of cut off jeans, sweat socks, holey tee shirt and having gone unshaven for several days?????

I get a different reaction from women when I tell them I wear dresses when I am male mode, versus showing up wearing a dress. I get more positive responses from women when showing up wearing a dress versus, telling them while in male mode.

The "jock strap" branch in this thread I found quite humorous too! I suppose there are women (and men) who might find that sexy too as its normally associated with young buff male athletes. Some people might like that kind of thing :-)

"The truth is I worship the clothes, I believe they are imbued with magic, and, no matter how uncomfortable they may be at times, I believe in their power to heal me. I am a prime example of a fetishist. If truth is beauty, then I create a truth I can barely begin to understand by wrapping myself in the beautiful ...

"A lot of this magic comes about because of the fact that I, a male, am not supposed to be wearing women’s clothing. I never fail to get a “buzz” out of crossdressing, and I’m not talking about a periodic sexual thrill. No, there’s some kind of regained innocence, or self-made vulnerability going on, whereby I wear something completely different and enjoy that difference. The tactile sensations created by women’s clothes are transcendental, and I go on a “trip” of sorts when I feel something really nice touching my skin. I become more aware of everything during my voyage, and even my drab male surroundings seem extraordinary – it’s pure magic, created by the simplest of means..."

Frédérique,

Your posts always have me soul-searching. They are so 'thoughtful', and your above comments reflect exactly how I have felt for the past fifty-odd years. Those feelings have become much more intense over the past ten years. I love the feel of a nylon slip and a pencil skirt, with pantihose and heels. I do not see it as a 'fetish'. I simply adore the feel of feminine clothing. I never want to take it off. But in the cold light of day, after a few early morning hours in a skirt, I need to return to 'man-mode' before the postman calls. But, come evening when I am almost sure to be left undisturbed, it's back into a skirt.

I may be mad. I may be a freak. But I love it.

I believe that there are many of us here that fit into the" I like to wear womens clothes" category. We may not have started out this way, but as time goes by the simple enjoyment of the clothes takes over. In my case the comfort and feel of nylon lingerie is heavenly. Whats not to like about a skirt with pantyhose, or stockings encasing your legs! We dress that way because we like and enjoy it, if we didn't we would have stopped a long time ago. Some of lifes simplest pleasures are the best, I don't expect others to understand, even on this web site.

Well said Frederique. I think I can identify with almost everything you said.

Thanks for adding more to your response, Freddy. I have several thoughts:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="3"]– women, or GG’s if you prefer, are baffled if a man says, “I like to wear women’s clothes.”[/SIZE]

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It is not only GGs who are baffled by the "It's just about clothes" concept. You've been involved in several long discussions about this. As virtually the only GG who has participated, I am merely one of the voices among pages of MtF posts who feel otherwise. These other members are also largely CDs, not TS.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="3"]Being a GG, how can you appreciate how a male feels about forbidden things? I could very well fold ideas about sexual practices, or religion, or any of a number of taboo topics into this discussion, and easily derail the topic, simply because certain subjects are denied to us on this forum.[/SIZE]

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(bold type is my emphasis)

Well, why didn't you say so before? :) If your motive is to seek pleasure, whether it is of the sexual or asexual type (sensual), then I understand your reluctance to label what you do with anything that has the term "gender" in it. I think it is understood by people who are familiar with the TG Umbrella that men who do this strictly for the physical experience (whether it is sexual or sensual), fall outside the transgender umbrella.

A note on asexuality: My impression is that the majority of people in this forum understand fetish to be of the sexual variety that culminates in orgasm, whether it is object or situation oriented. But there are also asexual fetishes among, well, asexuals. There are also sexual people who have asexual fetishes ("gray-a" asexuals), for things they find sensual such as wearing taboo clothing or feeling like a beautiful woman. The "gray-a" falls somewhere in between sexual and asexual.

Here's a thread about asexual fetishes from one of the best asexual forums out there, Aven, and interestingly there is also an entire section there on gender issues:

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/8...tishes/page-13

And here's the most comprehensive diagram of the Transgender Umbrella I've seen. Note the absence of sexual or sensual fetish motives, so again if your motives are purely physical (sensual), then I do understand why you see yourself as falling outside the Umbrella.

http://trans-e-motion.org/wp-content...ansgender1.jpg

Now. The thing that motivates physical/sensual pleasure, when it involves fabrics that are also found in men's clothing (silk, nylon, cashmere, etc) is an entirely different conversation. :p

It's complicated and I can see why so many people just want to throw up their hands and stop trying to assign labels. Because this would mean delving deeper than a person might be willing to do.

Beautifully expressed Frederique. I relate completely to enjoying the magic of wearing women's cloths without any objective other than putting a smile on my face.

Good post and conversation

Why?

Because!

All I ever needed to know I learned in Kindergarten.

I have been enjoying this thread... Thank you Frederique. The very first time I expressed myself to another person about crossdresing I said that I was practicing magic... that I had become a magician and was enjoying the beauty and illusion of this magic, quite immensely. It has not worn off at all... I feel as though I am just getting started and need to make up for lost time.

I adore the magic!
Monica

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Originally Posted by ReineD

It is not only GGs who are baffled by the "It's just about clothes" concept. You've been involved in several long discussions about this. As virtually the only GG who has participated, I am merely one of the voices among pages of MtF posts who feel otherwise.

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[SIZE="2"]I appreciate your response. I hope that doesn’t sound (read) too hollow. For a moment there I got the feeling you were making fun of me, or US (non-TG MtF crossdressers) – your “jockstrap” comment was ill-received, FYI. We MtF's get laughed at a lot, you know. I try not to form impressions of people on this site, seeing as how all I have is a few words to go on. Perhaps I “bug” you, and you bug me in return…[/SIZE]

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If your motive is to seek pleasure, whether it is of the sexual or asexual type (sensual), then I understand your reluctance to label what you do with anything that has the term "gender" in it. I think it is understood by people who are familiar with the TG Umbrella that men who do this strictly for the physical experience (whether it is sexual or sensual), fall outside the transgender umbrella.

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[SIZE="2"]I agree with your statement that crossdressers cross (key word there) the so-called gender barrier when they dress-up, but, for me at least, it’s about sensual pleasure and not gender. Perhaps I’m a crossdresser because I am imbued with more sensuality than other males, or I embrace it in a more open, yet deviant, manner. As I have stated on many occasions, I dress to find an oasis away from my over-sexed nature, the latter being a “gift” from my father, and CD’ing provides a respite. It’s strange how that works, since I like the sensual nature of crossdressing, but it does the trick – people tend to disbelieve me, but, referencing your earlier mistimed underwear comment, I don’t get a sexual “buzz” from wearing certain female unmentionables, and this goes against most prejudice that is hurled in our direction. I’m here to educate, or, in this case, clarify…[/SIZE]

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My impression is that the majority of people in this forum understand fetish to be of the sexual variety that culminates in orgasm, whether it is object or situation oriented. But there are also asexual fetishes among, well, asexuals. There are also sexual people who have asexual fetishes, for things they find sensual such as wearing taboo clothing or feeling like a beautiful woman.

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[SIZE="2"]Wearing female clothing is definitely a sensual, and magical, experience. However, feeling like a beautiful woman is an abstract concept, since I cannot possibly understand how “she” feels. My crossdressing is fetishistic in nature, but I wouldn’t label it asexual in any way – it’s more like a balancing act, trying to modify or contain the overtly sexual male (me) and find a calm space. My sex is very much in evidence, thank you, but HE needs to be on the bottom as much as possible…

In regards to being “denied” certain forbidden things, and those things being forever desired, I was going to mention the following reference to art. I’m an artist, and I became one because I wanted to paint pictures of girls. Why? Well, they fascinated me, and, by way of my artwork I could gaze upon them 24/7. Girls were not denied to me, but the artist can capture their essence and, in doing so, transpose it onto his own self-image. He can also see (paint) things the way he wants to see them, a true perversion of reality, and do so under the auspices of art, which happens to be another thing nobody can explain satisfactorily. Have you ever wondered why male artists (and female artists, too) make so many nudes? It’s difficult to do properly, for one thing, but the effort is made because the artist wants to see nude people, period, and they are not in evidence most of the time. A sensualist like you may appreciate such an analogy, since artistic endeavors spring from sensual individuals. This is beyond the subject matter of this particular forum, but it’s just one example of a person finding a way to do something that others frown upon, and it’s all part of being a human animal…[/SIZE]

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It's complicated and I can see why so many people just want to throw up their hands and stop trying to assign labels. Because this would mean delving deeper than a person might be willing to do.

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[SIZE="2"]At the end of the day, I can safely say that wearing women’s clothes is fun, and it will always be fun. Assigning unwarranted labels to something as benign as MtF crossdressing is distressing, and it tends to kill any joy one wishes to feel. If a woman is as sensual as she says she is, then she should be able to understand the counter-balancing existence of sensual males without any further explanation. Some of us sensual males like to wear women’s clothes, but the vast majority do not. Do me a favor – the next time you see a still life painting of apples, painted by a male artist, ask yourself what the apples might represent, and why he bothered to paint it in the first place. The artist can’t help himself, and neither can I, truth be told…

PS – Your declaration of sensuality was very interesting to me. Well done! :clap: [/SIZE]

I just wanted to say I didn't particularly take offense at the jock-strap comment, it was kind of amusing. Although, some topics can certainly be touchy for different people, so fair enough. I'm sure everyone means well, so no harm, no foul :). Reine is certainly in a strange position as a GG on this thread. It's always nice, of course, to have more woman about, especially as someone who has worked part of the time in a male-dominated field.

One thing, though, there's a reason it's hard to find modern equivalencies for women in the first world, and that's because, to a large degree, this argument was fought a long time ago. I remember this topic came up with some friends -- basically, a group of men were complaining that they couldn't wear female-pattern clothes like skirts/dresses, and the woman became frustrated and pointed out that womae had to claim the right to wear what they currently wear. For example, a huge hubbub occurred in England towards the end of the nineteenth century when female coal workers wore trousers to work. This was considered quite inappropriate! Even though they couldn't do their job wearing skirts of the day (in fact, they still wore skirts over the trousers, rolled up while at work, but that was inappropriate). A ballyhoo was raised! Similiarly, one of the earlier known transmen fought in the US civil war; there was a note made by a fellow soldier that she was one of those degenerate camp-follower women who wore trousers. This despite her serving as a soldier for years and fighting in something like forty battles, when everyone believed she was a man, just a small and quiet one. In fact, there's nothing I can think of that's considered desirable that men wear, that women haven't already coopted. Jock straps are not so desirable, although there are some people that use them to create a bulge.

So, my female friend's point was, it is men's responsibility to claim fashion if they wish to do so, and they're just being cowards by failing to advance the boundary. Of course, her real claim was that some people wish the current status quo because it touches as the reasons why they like it; ie, that it's forbidden. I have no idea what the distribution of that cause is for people who crossdress. One can't even gauge by this forum, sinceit's self selecting. I don't really agree with her point, although there's a gem of truth to it. It isn't parallel because our society is not gender equal, which has generated lots of discussion (Simone de Beauvoir's _The Second Sex_ to start, followed by the enormous mass of books on the subject). Ironically, the superior position of men in society makes it harder for men to coopt female patterns. Okay, the preceding paragraph could be highly volatile, but for a simplification of a complex topic, I think it's fair.

So, women _did_ in fact wish to reclaim men's fashion, and those who did, did so in direct opposition to social mores of the day. You'd need to hide your pants as you went to work, because if you were caught, bad things could happen. Of course, this happens in some parts of the world nowadays as well. There are plenty of women in some parts of the world who need to stealthfully dress in male clothes. In fact, in some countries, if women do not wear their appropriate social garb, the penalties can be severe, sometimes in terms of law, but more often in terms of severe social impact. If, as a woman, you travel in many countries, you will be strongly warned to dress according to code, because not doing so can be result in terrible consequences. Yes, women in those countries still choose to dress in those "forbidden" styles of clothes. Who knows, maybe there's even some countries where it doesn't occur for utiliarian reasons, but simliar reasons to some people on this board. Those woman have all sorts of motivations for doing so, many just wanting to be Western and modern, but it's not always that.

Anyway, my post meandered a bit. In terms of this thread, and in terms of my previous post, personally, aesthetics are an aspect for me as well, but not in the same way as some people here. I don't really want to appear to be a woman at the moment, just something interesting that reflects myself as I am changing. I also believe in living life to deliberately transform oneself for various reasons, from the artistic to sometimes the scientific. That sounds pretentious and is :), but what I'm getting at is choosing to live life beautifully. Who knows what I'll think next year, when, after all, much of the mass of my body will have been replaced and the experiences of the year will have given rise to some other me, at which point my motivations might not be the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="3"]I appreciate your response. I hope that doesn’t sound (read) too hollow. For a moment there I got the feeling you were making fun of me, or US (non-TG MtF crossdressers) – your “jockstrap” comment was ill-received, FYI. We MtF's get laughed at a lot, you know. I try not to form impressions of people on this site, seeing as how all I have is a few words to go on. Perhaps I “bug” you, and you bug me in return…[/SIZE]

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I didn't mean to be offensive. To be honest, a jock strap was the only thing that came to mind for items of clothing that women don't wear. We wear everything else! :D

And you don't bug me at all. Why should you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="3"]Have you ever wondered why male artists (and female artists, too) make so many nudes? It’s difficult to do properly, for one thing, but the effort is made because the artist wants to see nude people, period, and they are not in evidence most of the time.[/SIZE]

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I'm a figurative artist as well, but I don't sell work. I do strictly nudes, self portraits although I hate working from a mirror, and my kids when they let me. I can't afford models, but I join the figurative drawing and painting classes at the local university. I'm attracted to nudes for different reasons than you though. I'm attracted to the beauty of the human form (male and female, young and old) and I enjoy representing life. When I draw (I mostly draw), I become one with the medium, with the paper, with the form that I am drawing, with the subject, and time ceases to exist. It's as if I can feel on my body what my eye sees and my hand executes. It's a spiritual experience for me and the beauty of it takes my breath away.

An artist I admire is Lucian Freud.

I too wear women's clothes and LOVE IT!!!!!! I find that for me anyway when I put on my lingerie something changes deep inside me and I want to become pretty!!!!!
Upon the final phrase of "getting dressed" my "female persona" is out and I become the female that I have always wanted to be. I find when I am dressed, I am more relaxed, more attuned to my surroundings and pause every time at a mirror in my home in order to gaze at my "female" figure. I LOVE how my chest looks, I LOVE how my waist looks, I LOVE how my legs look. Am I a deviant???? Am I "sick"????? Should I be locked up and removed from society????? I personally feel the answer to these three questions are NO NO NO!!!!! I JUST LOVE BECOMING THE FEMALE THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BORN. Just goes to prove that the GOOD LORD does have a sense of humor.

Molly

Hi.

Kelly .

Im not one for disagreeing with others here & thier thoughts , In this case i will, are you a woman or even a female , because if you belive most of what youv said here id like to know what its based on. for me you have no ...IDEAR ...of what is a woman what makes us like we are, . I am a female who has grown to be a woman yes intersexed at that as well.

Do all humans start out as female ,

We do not start out as female in the womb ,the gender of a child is immediatly determined at conception meaning as soon as a sperm cell bonds with an ovum - or egg - our gender is determined because sperm contain both X & Y chromosomes , while female ova only contain X chromosomes which means that sperm ultimatly determines the gender of a child - if an X chromosome carrying sperm cell bonds with an egg , the child will be female cuz XX chromosome pair creates a female but if a Y chromosome carrying sperm cell bonds with an egg the child will be male because XY chromosome pair creates a male & there are exceptions to this that result in geneitc anomalies , such as woman being born with an XY pair & vice versa,

the reason why people belive that humans start out as female in the womb is because for a time the childs genitala remains undisguishable untill certiian hormonal processes form them & thus they pair the absence of any distinct genitalia with being female.

& in fact both males & females orignate with the same genitalic tissues untill the above mentioned hormones produce thier respictive genitalia .

So for the last time a childs gender is determined at conception immediately as the sperm bonds with the egg & no matter what the gender is it will remain with out any noticable genitialia merely genitalic tissues till certain hormones create them ,

With my self im different hence intersexed , not your normal run of the line ,my body is different because of abnormal detail that took place just over 65 years ago. yeap my bodys all mixed up & my hormones are different like many others who are intersexed like me in thier different ways,

Now i did not get into the how my brain works the differences there is more involved & to explain that i need time to work through that, its not quite so easy . any way .


Im involved with women all the time & what youv said would be thrown back at you & told where do you come from with those idears, its not me or my women friends,

...noeleena...

I wholeheartedly agree with your reasoning, Freddy - thank you very much :)
And the discourse with Reine is a treat in itself...

This aspect caught my attention:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]
But, what woman could possibly understand this simple notion: “I like to wear women’s clothes?” Surely the poor guy has a mental or emotional problem, and he needs help to correct it, or he thinks he’s a woman, or he wants to be a woman. When I came out to my girlfriend many years ago, the first thing she asked me was, “Do you want to become a woman?” I said no. I tried to explain that I just like to wear women’s clothing, which seemed to put her off a bit, i.e. there is no decent explanation for what I do, so I must definitely have a problem of some sort. She didn’t want a man with “a problem,” so we drifted apart. [/SIZE]

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I've been living "alone" for well over four years.
During this time CDing has steadily become part of my (private) life.
A few times I've timidly and happily ventured out into the real world to (i) see what it is like and (ii) to show solidarity with my fellow-CDers.

I've had and have various relationships with a few women on a SO level and/or on a very-close-gg-friend level.
(Trying to be as Reine-vague as possible here... the ice IS thin :))
I've shared my CDing quite openly with these people.
All have shown understanding and were/are accepting.
None had been aware of CDing, least of all among their friends, and most knew nothing about it at all... something for cinema or television:sad:
Indeed, they are curious, open to my voyage-of-discovery, often amused and always helpful.
Sometimes misunderstandings have arisen because of relationship issues... but generally, I remain on good terms and in good contact with everybody.

The "problem" as you described above hasn't been an issue at all:eek:
Best of all, I feel I've developed and changed completely as a person, though outwardly, I'm much the same as I ever was, regardless of age.

Kelly's post also made a lot of sense to me. (isn't that interesting noeleena - BTW thanks to you too :))
The following aspect is new to me and I'll have to think a little more about it.
It struck me as I feel it's related to the point I've just made.
(I might be contradicting myself, by the way... but then, that's just me:))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KellyJameson

The sensitive male has the best of both worlds. He experiences what a female could but does'nt because of her "body and womb" and avoids being a slave to natures prerogatives that the fully masculinized male is which is usually expressed as some form of aggression.

The sensitive male lives between the female and male, both of which cannot experience his sensitivity but for different reasons.

This makes him an object of scorn because he is not understood by those who he stands between which are the men and women he shares the world with...

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I suppose I've managed to build up a real world for myself in the last few years which allows me to experience this "sensitivity" without being an "object of scorn".
:2c:Gaby:)

A duplicate that needs deleting please.

I like to wear women's clothes as well Frédérique.
I read with interest your discourse with Renee and this has livened up the discussion immensley.
To Renee, I appreciate your differing opinions as they are always a great leveler to quite often an otherwise one sided view.
I do like the statement I like to wear women's clothes as I really don't know what label to put on myself.
It sounds so much nicer and self explanatory than the various labels with their own connotations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JadeEmber

So, my female friend's point was, it is men's responsibility to claim fashion if they wish to do so, and they're just being cowards by failing to advance the boundary. Of course, her real claim was that some people wish the current status quo because it touches as the reasons why they like it; ie, that it's forbidden.

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Those are very interesting points. I do feel I'm doing my bit to advance the boundary, as I appear in public as an otherwise normal man who happens to be wearing what are obviously women's clothes. However, for me the thrill of cross-dressing comes partly from the idea that I'm sensually feeling what a woman feels, and partly from the fact that it is a forbidden activity. If cross-dressing became accepted and was no longer forbidden, then I'm fairly sure that I would derive less pleasure from it - if any at all. The sensual aspect would be reduced because my dress and high heels would be equally the experiences of both men and women, and therefore would lose their special connection with femininity. They may cease to become "women's clothes" entirely. That's a terrible thought. What on earth would I wear then?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

I do like the statement I like to wear women's clothes as I really don't know what label to put on myself.
It sounds so much nicer and self explanatory than the various labels with their own connotations.

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Yes, it is easier just to look at that way, isn't it. :)

Hi Frederique,

I love reading your posts, and it always gets me thinking from a differnt angle. I had never thought of the word magical, linked with wearing female clothing, but it is a beautiful and accurate way to describe it, certainly for me at least. My SO once commented on how when I pick up to fold and touch my femme clothing I do with such reverence unlike how I treat my drab clothes. You are quite right it is a magical and sensual experience, wearing them, just touching them sometimes!

Thank you for your thought provoking post.

Charlotte

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm a figurative artist as well, but I don't sell work. I do strictly nudes, self portraits although I hate working from a mirror, and my kids when they let me. I can't afford models, but I join the figurative drawing and painting classes at the local university. I'm attracted to nudes for different reasons than you though. I'm attracted to the beauty of the human form (male and female, young and old) and I enjoy representing life. When I draw (I mostly draw), I become one with the medium, with the paper, with the form that I am drawing, with the subject, and time ceases to exist. It's as if I can feel on my body what my eye sees and my hand executes. It's a spiritual experience for me and the beauty of it takes my breath away.

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Reine, I love your description of producing a piece of art. I enjoy doing figure drawings and watercolors. The human figure and face are the most interesting and challenging subjects for an artist, at least this one. Time truly ceases to exist. It doesn't matter to me whether the subject is young, old, fat, or thin. It is all tremendously satisfying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melanie Sykes

Those are very interesting points. I do feel I'm doing my bit to advance the boundary, as I appear in public as an otherwise normal man who happens to be wearing what are obviously women's clothes. However, for me the thrill of cross-dressing comes partly from the idea that I'm sensually feeling what a woman feels, and partly from the fact that it is a forbidden activity. If cross-dressing became accepted and was no longer forbidden, then I'm fairly sure that I would derive less pleasure from it - if any at all. The sensual aspect would be reduced because my dress and high heels would be equally the experiences of both men and women, and therefore would lose their special connection with femininity. They may cease to become "women's clothes" entirely. That's a terrible thought. What on earth would I wear then?!

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Haha, yes. This is, of course, representative of how diverse the community is. From the outside, it can seem a consolidated group, which is why we should be supportive of each other, but the actual motivations are often different.

I, for example, would find it much nicer to not have the social censure. For me, it's sort of like someone telling me you can't use any color with any form of red in it when you paint. However, I understand that other people have a different experience.

Of course, this is also why cross-dressing comes up in feminist literature. Simone de Beauvoir's argument was that the second sex (the female sex) is not one, but that it is a social construct of mystery and Other to reinforce the patriarchy. One is not born a woman, one becomes one, being her famous quote.

The book's a bit old and things have moved on, but that could be part of a social aspect to cross dressing. Incidentally, the above comment could be taking as a negative comment, and it isn't really meant to be. Whether or not it is an aspect, and even if one wished to keep it, one could still act against negative connotations it might entail, if one even believed it's true. And we're into third-wave feminism and so-called masculinism now.

Also, you are doing more than I. I sometimes wear nail polish and sometimes I wear my non-obvious feminine cuts, but for the most part, I don't, at least not yet. On the whole, though, the CD community isn't itself enough to change things. I think such trends become adopted when they reach into the more masculinized fashion sphere. It's become more common in Seattle and California, for example, for "hipsters" to have painted nails. But the context of that is the "Alpha Nail" concept, if you've ever looked up that site. Wear bright red nail polish and be an alpha male! Skirts are expressed through kilts, which are seen as manly, although it isn't common.

What I think the CD community, however, can do, is express the notion that it shouldn't matter, in conjunction with other smaller groups. In other words, that while the conformist majority is important for doing the regular tasks, it is the people outside the norm that move things forward by seeing things in new ways. Not to say that CD augments creativity, simply that one shouldn't censure people for being benignly outside the norm, since they might also change society.

Pop psych tells us men rely more on visual erotic stimulation than women. Could it be that CDs (who are not transgender) take this to the logical ultimate extension by wanting not just to see beautiful women, but to emulate them in an outward, visual way? And beyond just seeing, experience first hand? Like Frederique, I find it exceedingly pleasurable to see MY shaved legs in MY sheer hose below MY skirt, with MY gorgeous pair of stiletto pumps on MY feet. After so many years of stealing glances in real life, looking at images on the net, buying these items for my wife and enjoying immensely when she wears them...this is an intoxicating extension of those powerful visual cues. Now I can do more than see, I can see the powerful objects of femininity on me, and not just see, but touch.

I love to wear women's clothes (some) and don't need to think of it any other way.

Thank you Frederique for your astute post.

Thank you, Frederique. I don't use the label, crossdresser, to refer to myself. I just see myself as one who likes to wear women's clothing. My dear wife was the person who said I was crossdressing. Her seeing me as a crossdresser led me to look online to see what the term crossdresser really meant. This is what actually led me to this wonderful website.

some women cannot understand that most CROSSDRESSERS ARE STRAIGHT MARRIED MEN.

it perplexes them that a man would dress like a woman and desire only women.

they are confused, stunned,shocked and ...........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brenn

Well said Frederique. I think I can identify with almost everything you said.

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One day,I dream
of wearing a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders uniform,even if I have to have one custom made

Why must there be a deeper reason. When I have an itch I scratch it, when I want to put on clothing meant for women I do. I regret that I have to hide the act of dressing but I do not seek any transition from dressing. I like the way it makes me feel when I am dressed. I am sorry that others need deeper more profound rationale for what we do, but we are all different so the reasons for why any one of us gets dressed is different for each of us. I am happy to hear that there are others who don't do it to feel like a woman/girl or want to have sex with men when they do dress up.

Riene has often stated that there is a spectrum of folks here and so it should not be so hard to conceive that some of us do fall into the "I love the clothes" bin.

It feels right for me to dress in woman's clothing and it has since I was very young. I do not look for too much more as far as the why, I have accepted it as part of me and have moved on from that point of acceptance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Jamie, my point was that until recent times, no one realized this.

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Probably because until fairly recently, western society slapped very harsh penalties on anyone violating binary gender norms, so there was no way for anyone to learn any differently. Everyone was told in no uncertain terms that it was evil to break the gender rules because God said so, and there were laws on the books that said it was okay to put people in prison if they broke the gender rules. It wasn't until the 20th century that significant numbers of people slowly began questioning the rules regarding binary gender identity and gender expression. It wasn't until the end of the 20th century that things really began loosening up a little.

Carol

Well said Frederique, But I love wearing women's clothes and it is like magic. Reine you really like to complicate things. Jaymee

Our problem as crossdressers and transgender people is that there has been A LOT of very rigid and self-serving opinion that has preceded these times. The notion, however incorrect, that if you like wearing women's clothes you MUST be crazy, queer and want to actually be a woman has existed for a LONG time. This is why people have such a hard time believing that there is such a thing as a straight crossdresser. Further, looking at it from a bisexual's view, I was also a bit surprised to learn this. But, as people have given me slack and not said "it's just a phase", "you're just hiding", etc., I must also reciprocate and accept that straight crossdressers do actually exist.

The root of the problem is this:

For men, we are an affront to their masculinity. They feel that we have turned our backs to a concept that they hold most dear. And, by doing so, we have cheapened and degraded their values. In short, we have abdicated and it makes no sense to them.

For women, they can't see the fascination in men wearing women's clothes. If they had a similar fascination for men's clothes, then we might have a shot. But, that isn't the case. Mostly they sort of view men's clothes (or male styled women's clothes) as low key, comfortable and uncomplicated. I mean, it doesn't take any heartburn to throw on a sweatshirt, jeans and UGGS. Nothing to think about; nothing to coordinate. But fascination? NONE. I think there is confusion and disgust on the part of women as it might feel like we are invading their space or that we're perceived as competition.

But, we must also consider other parts of the spectrum. There are people who were truly born into the wrong body. For females born into a male body for example, the question "do you want to be a woman?" would be answered with a resounding YES! And this is the source of deep-seated confusion. While the answer here is YES, the answer at the top was NO.

I think that if we are secure enough and brave enough to come out to someone, we should be prepared to explain how this sits for us and where we fall on the spectrum. I think it does a disservice to throw a little bit of information out and let the listener try to figure it out. That's how misinformation develops. In the absence of real information, people will make up their own. That is something that nobody wants.