A Tough Interaction

I had a friend, someone who I work with on an important project, who shared some difficult feelings towards me. He had a lot of judgements about my dressing. He judged that I would be a detriment to our common cause, despite the fact I do not crossdress at work events.
He had a judgement that my female dress was too colorful and stood out too much, He had a judgment that my sticking my clothing choices in others faces was aggressive.
He was able to hear me mostly, after a while. I stood up for myself pretty well, but I also feel like it pushed my self doubt buttons, and I feel sad that I had to deal with this from a progressive person who is in one of my circles.
Kim

I have no background here other than that someone gave their opinion about your behavior.

You have not indicated if you are transitioning or simply a recreational crossdresser
and no indication of "how" he found out about it ( either one )

If you are 53 and flamboyantly out ( in the clubs, out shopping ) seeking attention
dressed like a 12 year old .. sure I can see his point
However I don't know what your behavior actually is.

You also mentioned "common cause" ... are you saying he is crossdresser, too?
Or was he referring to the project on which you two are working together?

In reply to Moncton girl. I am out, and genderfluid, moving between female and male as it fits for me. He has seen me at social events (a very progressive groups where I have gotten a lot of support) where I am dressed femme, but still make announcements for the other causes I am involved with. We are mutually involved in creating a Gift Economy in Eugene where we live.
I dress colorfully, but not more than a flamboyant woman of my age would. I know a lot of people appreciate my sense of style.

Litangel. I like Moctongirl really did not see anything in your postings that your associate criticized your choice to be en femme. I read that your attire was critiqued for being too flamboyant. Without some pictures of the attire in question it is difficult to judge whether the attire is appropriate or inappropriate for the business settings or business model. If the criticism is no different than a criticism that would be made to a GG, I suspect you do not have a case.

The other issue that arises is one that will always weigh in on cross dressing. Men wearing the attire of a woman is still outside societal norms and customs. And, that can translate to a loss of economic prosperity for those mutually involved in a venture if it drives non accepting customers away. Acceptance at a social event does not necessarily confer acceptance in a business setting. If it were to be determined your flamboyant attire/cross dressing was undermining the development of your mutual business model, how do you think your associate should act?

With limited information it is a tough call to make whether or not your associate disapproves of your cross dressing or whether he disapproves of your choice of attire.

Maybe I should have been more specific, but I was hoping for a little empathy, and got none.

I did not dress in a business setting. Should we all hide our dressing in all social situations because someone might see us?
I was criticized because I stood out, and that made him uncomfortable. He has no idea of the value of gender liberation.
Can someone give me a little support here?

Sounds like he is abit insecure. How you dress is a reflection of your personality, he should honor your choice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by litangel

Should we all hide our dressing in all social situations because someone might see us?

---

The answer is yes, if you want to be successful in any business situation. There are many that will not accept, if you are going to be out to the world this is one of the things that is likely to happen. Unfortunately.

"where I am dressed femme, but still make announcements for the other causes I am involved with"
You are blending work with social. Whenever work is involved - the acceptable work ethics should be the standard.
One does not go out and "network" while slobering drunk and still make a good impression, for instance.
I like firearms, as do a lot of my employees. But I do not allow NRA stickers etc on my work trucks. No political stickers either. Why sour 50% of the potential customer base if you don't need to. You run the risk of loosing profits. Your workmate sees your attire/way of life as this type of threat. Personal truck - darn straight I voice my opinion.

Good for you for sticking up for yourself and your feelings. If this friend doesn't sign your pay check, oh well, it's just his opinion in my book.:)

I'm making an assumption here, trying to read between the lines. Litangel, I get the feeling that you weren't dressing or behaving inappropriately at all in your work setting, but that your coworker was expressing insecurity/fear caused by his knowledge of how you dress (appropriately) in other personal settings. I highly doubt you did anything "wrong."

I'm glad you were able to stand your ground. And I'm sorry you feel some doubt and sadness because of his judmental attitudes. But, I hope that by engaging him and talking frankly about his views, you may have begun the process that will enable him to grow more accepting.

the conversation should continue - and I hope that he can understand that while he thinks its unfair for you to "stick your clothing choices in other people's faces" that its at least as unfair for others to impose their clothing choices on you.

I'm sorry. I know that can hurt. .........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by almostalady

The answer is yes, if you want to be successful in any business situation. There are many that will not accept, if you are going to be out to the world this is one of the things that is likely to happen. Unfortunately.

---

I disagree. We may need to hide our dressing when at work, but when not at work we should dress as we choose. We should never give folks power of our personal lives when we are not at work. If we give them power, then we have truly lost our identity and can never be at peace with ourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamie001

I disagree. We may need to hide our dressing when at work, but when not at work we should dress as we choose. We should never give folks power of our personal lives when we are not at work. If we give them power, then we have truly lost our identity and can never be at peace with ourselves.

---

The world is a mean old place and we cannot expect our decisions not to have consequences. If people know they may react. That is not giving anyone power it is just the hard facts of life. If you let the people you work with know then there is a chance it will have repercussions. If lucky maybe not, but it is a likelyhood. Our behaviours outside of work can and often do effect our job. I wish it wasn't this way but it is. I am not saying it is right and this person should be quite ashamed about reacting to something you do that hurts no one. I am sure he isn't perfect either.

You're being yourself, litangel. it's too bad your colleague can't seem to deal with that very well. I hope you don't let his fears and misgivings push you back into a closet.

I am not seeing where what you do has anything in it that can affect him...please give a full explanation for us..Please!!!

Genderfluid absolutely does not fit the societal norm in most places. If you are going to present yourself that way, you might as well be ready for that sort of interaction. Don't get your panties in a wad, just continue to stand up for yourself, take it on the chin, be a big girl, or boy, or whatever you are at the moment, shake it off, and have fun.

Kim, you have received some good advice here for consideration. I am sorry you are sad, but your eyes are opened now to the fact that even "progressive" individuals can have their biases. When people work together, like you two are doing with your gift economy, there is always a tendency to want it to succeed, and even otherwise sane individuals will begin to question every little thing others do. In this atmosphere they will start to look for any little thing that they think someone necessary for the success will be put off by some little thing, and the project will fail. Now you must face it, your dressing style could possible be a put off to quite a few people, and your friend is most likely coming at this from that aspect. i am just guessing here. If he is a close friend and has not brought this up before, you might consider this, and not judge him too harshly, he doesn't sound like a real "people person" to me, and might not be able to express his thoughts. That does not remove the sting and sadness, only motives. hang in there, and continue your good work.

Barbara

Hi Kim,
I'm glad you braved through it.
Some people will never understand, or be tolerant/ You will never be able to change them.....that's just the way it is.

I can tolerate most hate and prejudice, except for work. My mortgage depends on my job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamie001

I disagree. We may need to hide our dressing when at work, but when not at work we should dress as we choose. We should never give folks power of our personal lives when we are not at work. If we give them power, then we have truly lost our identity and can never be at peace with ourselves.

---

Thanks for all the support I received, and especially this comment! And I even appreciate those whose comments did not seem as supportive, I know they were willing to help in their own way.

I wanted to share a little bit of what I am trying to do in the world through my dressing. I dress genderfluid because it is an expression of me. But I am willing to push through some crap from the world because of the vision I have for the world. I have chosen to be all the way out. I do not dress at work (it's a good place for male mode anyway) but I do not hide my identity from anyone. The fact that I am a socially involved person who does big things in my community, and has lots of friends, and goes out socially in a number of venues, means that my genderfluidity is affecting the norm where I live. I give space for others to stretch gender boundaries, many in less radical ways, and have it not feel as risky. I am a role model for younger folks who may want to stretch gender boundaries. My hope is that what I am doing will help the next generation of gender benders to be accepted and public, and confident in what they do.
I am not sure I would do this just anywhere. But I using the advantage of living in a progressive town, and connected to very progressive subculture, to be a pioneer. Hopefully I am being a pioneer for all of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by litangel

Thanks for all the support I received, and especially this comment! And I even appreciate those whose comments did not seem as supportive, I know they were willing to help in their own way.

I wanted to share a little bit of what I am trying to do in the world through my dressing. I dress genderfluid because it is an expression of me. But I am willing to push through some crap from the world because of the vision I have for the world. I have chosen to be all the way out. I do not dress at work (it's a good place for male mode anyway) but I do not hide my identity from anyone. The fact that I am a socially involved person who does big things in my community, and has lots of friends, and goes out socially in a number of venues, means that my genderfluidity is affecting the norm where I live. I give space for others to stretch gender boundaries, many in less radical ways, and have it not feel as risky. I am a role model for younger folks who may want to stretch gender boundaries. My hope is that what I am doing will help the next generation of gender benders to be accepted and public, and confident in what they do.
I am not sure I would do this just anywhere. But I using the advantage of living in a progressive town, and connected to very progressive subculture, to be a pioneer. Hopefully I am being a pioneer for all of us.

---

Litangel,

We need many more folks like you that are out there being genderfluid rather than hiding the back of a closet waiting for the world to change! Whenever I'm not at work and am out and about in my normal feminine male mode. I am out to all of my friends and family, however, I don't dress as feminine at work because I don't want to rock the boar, but when I'm on my own time, I am my own person and I dress as however I want. We can't give folks that we work with power over how we dress and express ourselves when we are not at work. To do so would be to loose all sense of self and you might as well be locked in a prison because it is self imposed.

I agree with jamie and applaud both of you for doing what you do, showing people that being yourself is not scary. I don't understand the people who call it "being in people's face" or talk about keeping things hidden away. Change doesn't happen by hiding things in the closet and acting like it's shameful. Of course, not everyone can be as open as they might like, for a variety of reasons. But to criticize those who are as open as they can be seems counter-productive to me. But I'm not here to criticize people. I'm here to congratulate you and let you know that some of us do support you.

It is not a good idea to put in your face dressing suggestions to others that are not accustomed to it.

Kim: I do have some sympathy and can relate somewhat. I used to live in the Portland area and I despised it. Lots of folks seem to think that it is some kind of utopia but I keep trying to tell them that although the area is fairly gay/lesbian friendly they are most definitely NOT CD/TG/TS friendly. I was ostracized and eventually fired from my job simply for expressing some feminine tendencies ( growing my hair, occasionally painting my nails, although I never fully dressed in public).
No offense to you or anyone else, I don't care for that "progressive" label because as others have mentioned in this thread it is misleading because it is not all-encompassing.
I visited Eugene on two occasions and although it is somewhat scenic and the people are mostly nice I would highly recommend that you leave and get to a much better, more accepting and larger metro area such as Seattle, San Francisco or Los Angeles. I have lived in and visited a good swath of the USA and you cannot beat any of the major cities in California for acceptance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamie001

I disagree. We may need to hide our dressing when at work, but when not at work we should dress as we choose. We should never give folks power of our personal lives when we are not at work. If we give them power, then we have truly lost our identity and can never be at peace with ourselves.

---

That depends on what type of work you do. If you mow lawns, paint houses, or work in a factory, your off time is pretty much yours to do what you want as long as you don'r get arrested or get your photo on the 6 o'clock news.

Move up to where you are the boss or a doctor, lawyer, school teacher, preacher, politician, etc. and that's no longer the case. The point was made above about alienating your customer base. It's a good point.

You can whine and cry about it all you want, but it's reality. Reality can be tough sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VickysBFF

Kim: I do have some sympathy and can relate somewhat. I was ostracized and eventually fired from my job simply for expressing some feminine tendencies ( growing my hair, occasionally painting my nails, although I never fully dressed in public).

---

Are you sure that you were not fired for other reasons such as performance? It is hard to believe that an employer would fire a productive employee over something so trivial. What type of industry were you working in at the time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linda allen

That depends on what type of work you do. If you mow lawns, paint houses, or work in a factory, your off time is pretty much yours to do what you want as long as you don'r get arrested or get your photo on the 6 o'clock news.

Move up to where you are the boss or a doctor, lawyer, school teacher, preacher, politician, etc. and that's no longer the case. The point was made above about alienating your customer base. It's a good point.

You can whine and cry about it all you want, but it's reality. Reality can be tough sometimes.

---

What you do in your time off work is your own business. I worked for a mid-sized corporation (1000 employees) and the CEO was a member of a nudist colony on weekends and didn't attempt to hide or deny that fact. Being a member of a nudist colony or crossdressing is not illegal. When you are not at work if you give folks power over your life then you have essentially sold your soul. The reason that gays and lesbians have made so much progress is the fact they they stood-up and proudly proclaimed who they are! They did not allow folks to push them back into the closet. Remember Marv Albert, Anderson Cooper? They created a lot of talk initially and now it is a non-issue, especially marv's crossdressing. If you cower in the closet then you have successfully confined yourself to a self-made prison to which there is no escape.

Sounds like 'he' may have TG leanings 'himself' and afraid to admit it or explore it. Ask yourself, why else would she be...err...excuse me, HE be so intense about it? Hmm? I really dunno. Just sayin...

And, my sympathies, Litangel. Sorry you have to endure such unnecessary unpleasantness. Be well girl :)

No, my performance record was fine with positive reviews. I'd rather not say what industry it was because it's not really relevant to the discussion other than to say that it was an office environment where we had no contact with the public. It was an unsettling culture clash having to deal with co-workers who did not accept me at all, not only because of any gender issues but because I did not agree with their political, religious and social leanings.