The Real World, Crossdressers wives, and othe factoids

Hi-


Have been reading again- taking a break from spy fiction-

Found ONE study that found a real difference between crossdressers and controls- (the hardest part by the way was finding the "normal" controls)
Crossderessers are far more tactile sensitive- Surprise- (not for us)

Public perception of trans people, including crossdressers is still largely
negative, and is worse than the way gays are perceived- howevern we scored better than Hitler ( I kid you not).

Have trouble getting my head about human negativity- ie why do Sunnis and Shia CARE who succeeded Mohammed ?

Well hit with the new book- Crossdressers Wives-Our Secret lives
was like an ice water enema- tales of "perfect" marriages going kaput upon the crossdressers revelation- One would think these people were axe murderers-and messy ones at that. Found a website in which women write as if they were beated badly by their spouse who apart form crossdressing is a great (by THEIR admission) husband, father, provider,lover).

Yeeesh- crossdressing as a deal breaker more than I thought-

Hugs,

Flo

I will always maintain that cross dressing is convenient excuse to throw in the towel in relationships that just exist, rather than grow and thrive.

Typically when the marriage ends it has little to do with the cd'ing. Mine was many different issues with the final straw being the years of lies, deciet, manipulation and control. I also now understand how the "pink fog" rolled in for him when he was discovered. Upon finding everything he felt that since I now knew he could bring it into the home I was living in. It was no longer about what the marriage means, it was about what he wanted.

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Originally Posted by thewife/soon2bex

Typically when the marriage ends it has little to do with the cd'ing. Mine was many different issues with the final straw being the years of lies, deciet, manipulation and control. I also now understand how the "pink fog" rolled in for him when he was discovered. Upon finding everything he felt that since I now knew he could bring it into the home I was living in. It was no longer about what the marriage means, it was about what he wanted.

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[SIZE="3"]Yours is so typical of what we see here on the forum over and over. It's all about us CD's and never mind the havoc and chaos we leave in our wake. The problem is always the same. We just don't feel our wives and SO's will understand so we lie and decieve until we've dug ourselves into a hole that there's just no escape from. Then finally we come clean, and sure enough, our SO's totally reject the whole concept and the "other woman" we've been so in love with! There's just got to be a better way. I'm thinking maybe we need to be upfront right away, but by the time this concept sinks in we've already destroyed any trust in our marriage and relationships. I'm always surprised to see that so many CD's just don't get what they're doing to their families.[/SIZE]

In our case he never told. I was the one to walk into it. Mine was a 20+ yr marriage and unfortunatly, with the quantity and the years of lies and other issues, I was done.

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Originally Posted by flogo920

Found ONE study that found a real difference between crossdressers and controls- (the hardest part by the way was finding the "normal" controls)
Crossderessers are far more tactile sensitive- Surprise- (not for us)

Public perception of trans people, including crossdressers is still largely
negative, and is worse than the way gays are perceived- howevern we scored better than Hitler ( I kid you not).

Well hit with the new book- Crossdressers Wives-Our Secret lives
was like an ice water enema- tales of "perfect" marriages going kaput upon the crossdressers revelation- One would think these people were axe murderers-and messy ones at that. Found a website in which women write as if they were beated badly by their spouse who apart form crossdressing is a great (by THEIR admission) husband, father, provider,lover).

Yeeesh- crossdressing as a deal breaker more than I thought-

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Thanks for the reality check. I blew out of a relationship when she informed me after a news story broke about someone else that she would bail immediately if she discovered that. Well, I can respect that she knew where her limits were. Too bad though because the irony was amazing. Her dad had a fixation on a certain period of historical clothing and it was just as intense as my CDing ever was. The irony is that she didn't see anything weird about that.

My ex-GF long time friend is acting all bizarre about it too even though we used to dabble in it as lovers. I think maybe she thought it was all just a game which I may have encouraged as I am playful.

Let's first put aside those husbands who selfishly or out of fear put off coming out to their SOs for although there are many wives (guessing 30%) who have sufficient love for their mates that they forgive and may then accept or even support --- the majority find that that lies and deceit has wiped off the glue that bonds. Among that majority who call it quits are more than half who were at the time of revelation already in a loveless marriage OR have a fear of what that disclosure means in their feelings of where their own sexual inclinations might lie, think lesbian. Now we can't ignore that half of all marriages end up in divorce. We all know the many reasons involved and some may overlap in sexual compatability, finances, mutual interest lacking and on and on. Going back to the original post: We must seperate those CDs who wait months or years to reveal (I just briefly covered those circumstances) and those who reveal before marriage or a long term commitment. This latter group are far more numerous than those who probably waited too long. To simplify, this group might be divided into the following ---
1) Told the SO and they want out before the relationship develops further 2) The GGs who believe "it's a passing thing" and he'll get over it
3) The GGs who want to continue the relationship but don't want to know or see. 4) Those who accept within their set boundaries and finally the GGs who fully support. How many of situations 2, 3 and 4 will still be together in the long haul? The 50% of the general population figure
is probably the answer. Just wanted to try to put this discussion that seemed to be wandering a bit back on a rational path (as though there is really a rational path in our community).
Julie

Thanks for your post, Flo. It is disturbing to find how CD'rs are so misjudged in society. Time will change this, as we all become more visible and known to others.
Di

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why do Sunnis and Shia CARE who succeeded Mohammed ?

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...I was going to say something political but decided against it.

My first marriage didn't break up because of my CDing. I kept that hidden until the last month or so and that was the key that unlocked my freedom. I say MY freedom because it was a stifling marriage that wouldn't have worked for me in the long run in any way.

I told my current wife of 37 years before I married and she was ok with the dressing. Well, tolerant is more to the truth. When I retired last May and had more time on my hands I wanted Miki to come out to the world. Not with lights flashing and horns blaring, but quietly with some local groups. Wham! The argument that ensued almost cost us our marriage.

I guess what was frustrating, for both of us, was we both assumed the rules would never change. Well 37 years is a long time and marriages mature and spouses change. What we didn't do in those 37 years was talk about my CDing future.

Someone above mentioned the women she was dating made it clear up front CDing was unacceptable; that should have been a signal that said "No further!". I think any CDer letting a relationship without letting the SO know and go on for long is cheating the other person. I also think, while it is extremely difficult for some - come clean very early in any relationship you want to last. It is unfair to you to keep and important part of you life bottled up and it is unfair to the SO. The SO may be accepting or wants out immediately - let that be the SO's decision, and let that decision be reached early.

Mikiarata - you have it exactly. Early honesty is the only reliable foundation to a happy relationship of any kind.
Amanda.

The problem remains, should we be completely honest, and take the high road, you know, the one with no women on it? The number of women who are actively interested in a guy who crossdresses is, for the sake of argument, virtually zero. I'm not sure how many of us are willing to be martyrs to the cause of honesty, if it means spending the rest of our lives alone.

After all, as I've mentioned in previous threads, no one tells their mates everything, no one. We all leave out information that WE think isn't important for the other to know, or that we think shouldn't affect how our lives will be together. We've all heard stories about couples who've been together for 30 years happily, until some secret is unfurled and all of a sudden, one of them decides they can't stand the other person, you know, the person they've been quite happy with for decades.
How many marriages end with a death before a secret is found out? And that secret never known, both parties lived happy, fulfilled lives?

I don't know the answers. I do know that we should not be punished with isolation because of something that is not of our choosing any more than gay people should, and THAT has already been an accepted truth. We should not be subject to a different standard.
As I've also previously mentioned, before marriage my ex wife didn't tell me that she was a mean spirited, passive aggressive, vindictive, felony commiting person either. You can decide which was the worse deception.

Julie has quoted valid points, insomuch as cross dressing is used as a last ditch excuse for separation, when all along the marriage has been slowly drifting apart for a myriad of other reasons.

I told my wife well before we married (18 years now) so she could bail if she could not or would deal with it.

What has always bothered me is that CD'ing does not hurt anyone imho.

What if a spouse came down with a terrible disease like cancer that the SO will usually deal with but put on a pair of panty's and they are gone.

Just saying....

I'm a SO who found out 20 years & 4 kids later, just over 4 months ago.
It is very devastating to know the person whom you loved, trusted, gave your life to, kept this HUGE part of who they are a secret/lied for all those years. I still have A LOT of anger I'm dealing with. My hubby takes the brunt of it. And I think he should. He should feel the pain & anger I do. That being said, I have a good marriage. Many ups & downs - what marriage doesn't after 20 years? We worked at our marriage before I found out and we continue to work on it now that I know. Marriage is like anything else - if its worth having, it's worth working on. I went to that other website and those GGs made me so mad. Such closed minded people. The book was even worse. I cried the whole time thinking those wife's never gave the hubby's a chance. I recommend that no one reads it or suggests it for their SO. So depressing and hateful!
I do get frustrated. The "pink fog" is driving me crazy. The habit of lying to me about stupid stuff is making me nuts. But I try to remember the shame and fear he had & still has. And he had to deal with my anger and zillion questions. We decided not to make any promises about our future, but to just live each day and see where it leads us.

Hi Flo,

In answer to the 2 points below:

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Originally Posted by flogo920

.....Public perception of trans people, including crossdressers is still largely negative, and is worse than the way gays are perceived- however we scored better than Hitler ( I kid you not).

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I was hoping to see Double Glazing Sales and Estate Agents (Real Estate in US?) in between us and Hitler too. :straightface:

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Originally Posted by flogo920

.....Have trouble getting my head about human negativity- ie why do Sunnis and Shia CARE who succeeded Mohammed?

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Can I mention Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves here? :heehee:

Rebecca

It's so complicated. I have never understood people that judge other people for their gender, race, whatever, and have always been clear about it. My husband's family is very catholic and very judgmental - I even suffer through some of his gay jokes when we get together with them - thinking all along "if you only knew!" At any rate - while I have a very open mind about this, I am attracted to men - not women. (There is some curiosity, but it's very likely of the try anything once variety sort of thing, and that's that - who knows - haven't really gone there.) Even if the attraction was stronger - my husband as a girl.... 6'3 - football build, massive (sexy - except for a girl) arms does NOT make an attractive girl. Doesn't stop me from buying him things, but the truth is he will never pass. Even should he go the hormone route, I can't see it. Also, when he is dressed he is NOT the lover that I married. Much more ME focused. Which as it is becoming more frequent, is becoming a problem for me.

I have read a great deal about gender issues, (been lurking on this site for some time in fact) and it seems the main reasons wives leave later on do so not because of the actual dressing itself, but because of their husband's selfish behaviors - compulsive buying fem clothing that the family can't afford, cheating with both men and women, not honoring boundaries, etc etc.

I will admit that when I'm truly p o 'd at him and listing his faults in my head, "and he's a cross dresser too" does come at the end of the list - but that's because it's the least important.

Sorry if this was rambling...

There is no question in my mind that early honesty is the only way. I am one of those husbands who hid the CDing for years. All due to the many reasons many of us are so familiar with, shame, denial, fear, thinking it was a phase, etc. Still, all of those feelings together pale in comparison to the pain I feel in seeing the hurt this is inflicting on my wife and myself.
She feels hurt from the lies, and the realization I have this big part of me she did not know was there. I hurt from the realization that continuing on the CD path will more than likely lead to the end of our marriage.

How to link such opposing views with so much at stake to save an otherwise happy marriage? How to keep my sanity by repressing all this for the sake of my family?

I'm in a dark place right now. As more time goes by, I believe more and more that marriage and CDing are mutually exclusive. Still, many people on this site have proven it can be done. Early honesty might not guarantee anything, and might result in a life without a life partner. Still it has to be better than this, no? :sad:

So, how many men demand that thier women wear only dresses and skirts and never borrow thier sweatshirts or go out in jeans and tee-shirts? How often are women judged negatively in Western society for pursuing traditionally male hobbies (hunting, racing, etc.) or careers? I've even seen women dressed in tuxedos for weddings and standing alongside the groomsmen during the wedding and few batted an eye at them. It's a double-standard pure and simple, but it exists and continues to push or keep us in secrecy because we know most of the negative ramifications.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

The problem remains, should we be completely honest, and take the high road, you know, the one with no women on it? The number of women who are actively interested in a guy who crossdresses is, for the sake of argument, virtually zero. I'm not sure how many of us are willing to be martyrs to the cause of honesty, if it means spending the rest of our lives alone.

After all, as I've mentioned in previous threads, no one tells their mates everything, no one. We all leave out information that WE think isn't important for the other to know, or that we think shouldn't affect how our lives will be together. We've all heard stories about couples who've been together for 30 years happily, until some secret is unfurled and all of a sudden, one of them decides they can't stand the other person, you know, the person they've been quite happy with for decades. . .

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Lexi, I agree with your post here. This is an issue I'm in two minds about (which is a fair bit better than my usual 5 or 6). I can see both sides of the question.

I have no trouble understanding why a woman would be angry and upset about suddenly discovering a secret like this, especially if the marriage is a long-standing one.

But I think people often fail to appreciate the transperson's position. Given the harassment and abuse so many transpeople have to put up with, is it any surprise that a lot of us go into stealth mode? Society doesn't exactly encourage us to be open and honest, and then we're blamed for not being open and honest.

Looking back on my upbringing and the time and environment in which I grew up, I estimate the chances at 90% that had my parents had any inkling that I was trans, the experience would have left me a complete emotional wreck and quite possibly suicidal. I didn't just go into stealth mode: I went into stealth mode from myself. Complete denial and repression that I'm only now beginning to come out of.

It's very easy to say that transpeople should be open and honest, but many, many members of the cisworld don't want us to be. They want us, if we remain alive, to be buried deep in the closet so that they don't have to see us or even know about us.

Given the situation, is it surprising that so many of us remain in hiding? We remain in hiding even from the wife? Of course. We're in hiding from everybody. Being in hiding is a way of life for us, one that many of us found forced upon us. We didn't choose it.

And so a woman is upset? Understandable--but so is the transperson's desire to keep a secret. Understanding is needed on both sides: the transperson needs to understand his SO, and the SO needs to understand where her husband is coming from. Is it wrong to keep a secret? Yes. But maybe it's also wrong to put someone in a position where he needs to keep a secret.

CDers, being for the most part heterosexual, want marriages and children. But they need to be open about who they are. How can they be so without fear of reprisal? Only by society in general becoming accepting of TGism. When society allows transpeople to be open and honest, then we'll have no excuse for being otherwise.

And when transpeople are completely in the open, how many of us will find wives? Hard to say.

And Lexi's other point is also valid: how many people are really completely open and honest with their spouse-to-be before they get married? Had I known certain things about my ex before we got married, I'd have run away as fast as I could. I think transpeople unfairly take a lot of blame for doing what everybody, but everybody, is doing.

Does this mean I think it's OK for a transperson to get married without revealing his secret? No. He should 'fess up. But if we're honor-bound to be honest, I'd like everybody else to be the same.

Annabelle

Until MOST CDers - especially the single ones w/o their partners attitudes and concerns to deal with - overcome their NIMBY attitude, it is just plain silly to expect Mean Ol Society to change their minds/perception about CDers. It does no good to constantly whine about and make EXCUSES about an unaccepting Society, when all that is required is to get dressed and go out. Let Society SEE with their own eyes that CDers are just one more variety/flavor of unique Human no different than people who might choose to dress Goth or any other way. Clothing alone does not make one a criminal or a pervert or child molestor.

I'll bet 10 to 1 that most members here who "go out" regularly also thought Mean Ol Society was just waiting for them just around the corner from their homes with pitchforks and hammers BEFORE they ever went out the first time ...and then discovered that most people will not care what you are wearing as long as you treat THEM the same way you would like to be treated.

IF CDing is THAT important to someone, be willing to fight for it.

We all need these reality checks now and then. It seems so many of us fool ourselves into not realizing the depths of how some people find crossdressing vile and disgusting. If that survey had a significant amount of Nazi's, skinhead and anti-Semites taking it, I'm sure we would have ranked far below Hitler. There are plenty of people that get beat up and even killed just because they dressed up as a woman.

I think many times we also fool ourselves into thinking love should conquer all. Given the extreme irrational and emotional reaction to crossdressing some people have, it is perfectly understandable to me that some SO's just can't get past it no matter what other qualities the relationship might have. After all, I don't see very many crossdressers here declare that they love their wife so much, that they stopped crossdressing for the sake of the marriage. Too often I see the double-standard reaction that "if she really loves me, she should accept my crossdressing." Yeah I know that there are some that say nobody can stop crossdressing but I don't buy that argument for a second. Perhaps some truly cannot but I'm convinced that for some, they stop the behavior. It might be difficult but it can be done.

The crossdressing "thing" is just an excuse to dissolve a marriage. True, though its a sad fact that when a secret is hidden and then exposed the trust factor is broken. Not necessarily unrepairable but broken nevertheless. Truth in the beginning is the best defense against a marriage on the rocks for a kept secret. Its a tough call for the person doing the hiding but the truth will set you free.

Molly

Really???????

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Originally Posted by Diversity

Thanks for your post, Flo. It is disturbing to find how CD'rs are so misjudged in society. Time will change this, as we all become more visible and known to others.
Di

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Just within this thread there have been revelations of non acceptance by spouses concerning deceit, non disclosure before marriage, etc. I'm totally of the opinion those are hollow words to mask their non acceptance of cross dressing. Basically, when I hear statements of that nature, all it means they would have bowed out quickly. My wife once intimated, when we (TOGETHER), discovered what my interest in wearing nightgowns and hosiery was all about, she would not have married me. Why did she not head for the divorce lawyer? Because, she had disclosed to me a really sordid past before I knew her. She realized she would have been two faced about it. Here's a guy who loved her for her qualities and not her faults. How could she dump this otherwise wonderful guy, husband and father, because of this personal PRIVATE interest? She couldn't. That was over forty years ago.

Sure, fifty percent of all marriages fail, and, a great percentages of second marriages fail. It's not all because of cross dressing. Some women will dump us like a hot potato the minute the revelation is made. Others may wait awhile. Others will get tired of the guy wanting to strut his stuff around the house, break the bank, and, act boorish in the same manner as a guy pouring money into his pickup truck or golf clubs.

For those GG's who have already responded, give me a straight answer, "Would you have married the guy had he said he likes to wear dresses, heels, hosiery, makeup and wigs?" Be truthful!

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Originally Posted by KarenCDFL

I told my wife well before we married (18 years now) so she could bail if she could not or would deal with it.

What has always bothered me is that CD'ing does not hurt anyone imho.

What if a spouse came down with a terrible disease like cancer that the SO will usually deal with but put on a pair of panty's and they are gone.

Just saying....

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At one time I had a girlfriend that really got a kick out of it, and she knew that it wasn't a passing fad. As long as we didn't go out in the same city that she lived in she was more than happy to go out me all dressed and made up. She went with me to the first SCC that I went to 4 years ago. But unfortunately distance finally got the better of things. We live a few hours from each other and even though we had a monogamous relationship, we both enjoyed our own space enough that we had no plans to ever marry. We're still friends though.

But on a similiar note to the quote, I have seen people that had strong relationships, or so it seemed to at least one of them and to friends, but then got into accidents that left one of them paralyzed. A year or two later and the marriage broke apart.

That said, I guess that the point is to be upfront with whoever you're with once things look like they're getting serious. It may break the relationship apart, but at least you won't have to live your life in hiding or watch it explode later, and divorces are MUCH more unpleasant than a dating relationship that breaks apart.

In response to stephene47 - I soooo disagree with you. I left due to the many issues. Not because of the CD alone. In fact, I have seen my stbex dressed. He does not know. When I saw him I was happy for him. I truly feel that he can now be who he really is. I want him to be happy. I want him to be who he is. With that said, when the truth finally came out, the lies continued. I would ask questions and he would lie. I asked if he had wigs.. he said no.. within days they would appear in our closet. I asked if he had womans underwear... he said no... within days there they were. I have no problem with someone wanting to wear whatever they want. I do have issues with someone who cannot be honest with me. I have issues staying married to someone who can control me for so many years. He would tell me that he had to go to our 2nd home to take care of the work to be done. When I would want to go, I couldn't because someone had to "take care of the dogs". This home became his personal dressing house. I say this because when discovered, the entire home was his dressing room.

I have come to realize that he didn't WANT me to know. This was his secret that he found pleasure in keeping from me. He had control over when he could dress thereby having control over me. The quantity that he purchased was more then I had ever owned as a woman. He got pleasure out of having the items delivered to our home. He knew that I would never open anything with his name. He got pleasure out of pulling the wool over my eyes. He got pleasure out of controling me again.

There were many other issues as well. I have been working to make sure that these issues no longer are taking control of me. The lies, deceipt, manipulation and control are my biggest lessons. I do believe that had he told me in the beginning it would have been a totally different story. Why? Because I wanted nothing more then to be with him. I had never loved anyone the way I loved him. On our first date, I told him everything about me. Why? Because I saw a future with him. Every secret I had he was told.

Now, I know that there were other issues in our marriage. I know I made mistakes which I am working on now so that I never make the same mistakes again. I know I am working on making me a better person to be able to move on with my life, for as long as I have left, to have the best possible like I can. And yes, I do hope he finds someone he does not feel as if he needs to lie to.

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Originally Posted by KarenCDFL

What if a spouse came down with a terrible disease like cancer that the SO will usually deal with but put on a pair of panty's and they are gone.

Just saying....

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Really, really bad analogy. No one knows if they will get sick. YOU know if you are a cross dresser. Not even in the same universe of similarities.

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Originally Posted by withasmile

.... and it seems the main reasons wives leave later on do so not because of the actual dressing itself, but because of their husband's selfish behaviors - compulsive buying fem clothing that the family can't afford, cheating with both men and women, not honoring boundaries, etc etc.

I will admit that when I'm truly p o 'd at him and listing his faults in my head, "and he's a cross dresser too" does come at the end of the list - but that's because it's the least important. ...

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Wonderfully stated. Just proves women are better than men when it comes to compassion, empathy, and forgiveness. A strong foundation get deal with cross dressing. It does not mean it will be embraced, and that's ok.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Really, really bad analogy. No one knows if they will get sick. YOU know if you are a cross dresser. Not even in the same universe of similarities.

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I agree... I know when I was told I have stage 4 cancer, I never knew... only one in the family to ever have cancer

I would have to say yes to marrying him even if I knew. He was/is my best friend. We knew each other for years before we dated. I was 12 he was 14 when we meet. I was 20 & in college when we got married. He knows everything about my past and I knew ALMOST everything about his.

It might have made me think before we had kids. We might have moved out of this closed minded, southern baptist mentality state. I might have stayed on my career path instead of being a stay at home mom/wife. He took my choices away by not telling me. All I can do now is work on my anger & betrayal issues. Help him become more confidant in her. Raise my 4 beautiful children and take it one day at a time.

It is not the fact that he CD. It's the fact that my choices were taken away.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Just proves women are better than men when it comes to compassion, empathy, and forgiveness.

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This may not always be true.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...9276-overheard