Lost in Translation (not the movie)

I was at a Chinese restaurant last night with my SO, and we couldn't help but tune in to a conversation that was taking place at a table next to us. At this table, a white dude was chatting up that waitresses...and, doing what seemed like recalling every encounter that he ever had with a Chinese person.

It was pretty awkward, but you kind of see this behavior all of the time. I started talking to my SO about how you could flip the situation...a Chinese man sits at a table and recalls every encounter that he has ever had with a white, American dude.

Kind of awkward.

But, this sparked an interesting convo. What I proposed this guy was basically trying to let the waitresses know that he's hip with Chinese people...but, it's too weird to say that, so he kind of layered his implication with his language/examples.

Somehow, we got into this discussion about all the ways that we do/say things that have underlying implications.

(I swear this gets relevant to CDing lol).

I knew a girl from Connecticut who moved to Alabama for college. She loved the "Southern culture," but would fail to understand certain phrases that have underlying meanings. A few examples... When describing someone, one might say, "Well, I don't want to say that he's ugly...but..." In actuality, you just called that person ugly even if you framed it in a way that excuses yourself. Or, you might say, "She's just as dumb as a box of rocks...bless her heart, she's a real sweetheart though." You didn't bless her...you just insulted her while padding the insult.

Somehow, this lead to the way women "layer" our "language"...

When complimenting a friend who needs a boost, you might take yourself down a notch and raise her up a few. You might say, "Look at you in that cute little dress...you make me look like I grabbed mine straight out of the hamper!" This shouldn't be taken literally most of the time...you may feel that your friend looks great, but you don't necessarily truly believe you look like you rolled out of bed next to her.

But, even trickier...an insult disguised as a compliment. This one is hard to explain...and, my SO just shook his head in confusion. But, basically, lets say you overdressed for an occasion and someone wants to let you know that you're overdressed...maybe so you won't do it next time you meet with these people. Someone might tell you, "Well, don't you look fancy! You almost look like you're lost!" It's a compliment, an insult, and a warning all wrapped up nice and sweet.

It's known that your language actually shapes the way you experience and view the world around you. This was a problem for people translating Eastern concepts to Western language...certain meaning can be lost because not all concepts are easily translated. For example, one word from the Dao De Jing might take a whole page to try to explain that word/concept in Western terms. And, even still, the original concept is at risk of being lost...when you are translating something to your own language, you're viewing the concept from your preconceived lenses.

I think this is true beyond fundamental languages. I think that even something like being born in the "female culture" shapes a lense for language that might be lost when trying to translate it for someone outside that culture. And, even when someone feels they "get it"...are they truly getting it or is it just that they get it from their own perception of the event? (Yes, I know, everything is relative...and, that's kind of my point).

I wondered if this is why my girlfriends have some "communication" problems with their boyfriends. I know I'm even guilty of trying to find what a guy was "really" saying in his text message...only to find out he really just meant what was written and nothing beyond that. But, it seems in the female nature to dissect language to find a "true meaning." And, I can't help but wonder if this is because our way of communication is FULL of hidden meaning.

This brought us to a common thing that I see on this board...a woman said she was jealous of a CD, or did the common form of compliment where the GG will take herself down a peg to raise up another woman (in this case, a CD). So, when things are taken literally by the CD in question, I am often incredibly confused. But, I see time and time again that something was taken literally that lead the CD to make an assumption about GGs. So, for me, when I would tell my SO, "You're just too cute...you have the best pores for makeup, I am jealous because I can store loose change in my pores." Do I mean to compliment my SO? Yes. Am I really jealous? Nah. Do I really think my pores are That bad? Nah, but it put a smile on his face to compare in that way...he felt better and good about himself.

But, he also knows I think pretty highly of myself, so I'm not seriously putting myself down.

However, I often see here that a GG said she was jealous (usually in the form of a compliment)...but, when she went through the rollercoaster of acceptance/denouncement of CDing and decided she wasn't okay with it now, the CD goes back and rationalizes that "it's because she is jealous."

It's kind of weird to me when I see this, because I just see a failure in the translation of what was said to this person. And, it makes me wonder what else is said with "hidden" messages that women kind of just "get" on a day-to-day basis that could be lost on a MTF CDing SO.

And, another example that comes to mind is someone here who felt that he was successfully passing as a woman because a woman said "ma'am" to him. It was taken very literally that she meant ma'am because she obviously saw a woman. And, I hated to reply with news that this Might not be the case...the woman might just have seen someone trying to pass as female and wished to be polite.

A similar example is something that happened with my SO. This was one of our first times out and we were going to the movies. The person taking our ticket kept emphasizing "Ladies" in every sentence. It was almost tongue-in-cheek. I was fuming as we walked away. My SO was elated...he was just called a lady. The actual intention of the message was lost to him. And, I wasn't really thinking...should've let it go...but, was fuming enough that I shared my suspected intentions of the "ladies" with my SO. And, it burst his bubble a bit as a realization hit. :(

So, what I would like to know is do you think this could be an issue with some CDs not really understanding why their SO has suddenly become unaccepting? Also, when threads pop up in the "pink fog" where someone "passed" and decides to go whole hog with everything based on this experience...is it fair to burst their bubble and try to interpret what could be a missed translation? After all, it's all pretty relative...so, it's hard to know anyone's True intention by what they say. I do feel that being female sometimes makes me fall into a trap where I look for hidden meaning in language that doesn't exist...and, it seems like my girlfriends are also especially guilty. In our everyday speech, we rely on layering out messages...and, females are definitely not the only ones who do it (so, feel free to list your own experiences). But, is it something we should stress to those kind of caught in the fog? Or, is it best just to offer insight to people who might be using literal interpretations to say hateful things (usually about their wives lol).

This was just something that interested me and brought about a good convo with my SO. Sorry to those who TLDR and like for posters to just get to the point lol...I'm 80 at heart and I weave stories like it's my job.

I have my favorites in this. Like "I having nothing against you..." and you know that they really do. "How you guys doin?" at a restaurant. "Some of my best friends are....." and this is important because? Subtly doing something that indicates they really don't want you there like last night when they led me and my date clear across the restaurant to sit us at a High Top table, past two open booths (and even the whisper with the greeters...knowing they were saying "take them to table..."). Me, in a dress, at a high top table. Subtle.

Also when someone comes over to you in a venue and the first thing they say is "Have you seen Tootsie? (or To Wong Foo?") But my best one was last week when a piano player thought it was funny to sing a parody of "Yesterday" and put in lyrics about how yesterday they were a man and now they had SRS and they could...wait for it...Charge for what they used to pay. Yes she sang that. Then at the end of the song when she could see I was red and scowling look right in my eye and say "Well most people LIKE That song".

I did learn some southern speak though. When a person in the South says "Bless their hearts" they are basically saying "poor thing".

Not extremely relevant, but I knew an older lady once that came up on a newborn baby and said "That baby sure does have some pretty shoes." She thought the baby wasn't all that adorable, but wasn't going to SAY that. I thought it was funny.. anyways..

It's pretty much impossible to pick apart what people say without going into an all out interrogation with them. If someone says "ma'am" then does it really matter if they thought you were actually a female or were just being polite? Either way, the experience was positive.

I've never been one to do the whole make-myself-look-bad-so-you-look-better thing. I just don't think it's necessary. If someone looks fabulous, you just say HEY, you look great! I see no need in breaking myself down along with it. I don't think it's the fault of the CDer if a GG is misleading in their compliments/statements or has a hidden meaning. And just because we're GGs doesn't mean we have the key to crack every verbal puzzle. Maybe there's not always a hidden message at all, but being the suspicious overthinkers that we are, we come up with possible alternatives anyways.

Yes I have been lost in the translation a bit, but I notice the subtleties and usually pick up on it and bring the remark crashing down.
I then think, another point for me.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

I have my favorites in this. Like "I having nothing against you..." and you know that they really do. "How you guys doin?" at a restaurant. "Some of my best friends are....." and this is important because? Subtly doing something that indicates they really don't want you there like last night when they led me and my date clear across the restaurant to sit us at a High Top table, past two open booths (and even the whisper with the greeters...knowing they were saying "take them to table..."). Me, in a dress, at a high top table. Subtle.

Also when someone comes over to you in a venue and the first thing they say is "Have you seen Tootsie? (or To Wong Foo?") But my best one was last week when a piano player thought it was funny to sing a parody of "Yesterday" and put in lyrics about how yesterday they were a man and now they had SRS and they could...wait for it...Charge for what they used to pay. Yes she sang that. Then at the end of the song when she could see I was red and scowling look right in my eye and say "Well most people LIKE That song".

I did learn some southern speak though. When a person in the South says "Bless their hearts" they are basically saying "poor thing".

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Ugh, Gaw...those are some good ones. I have noticed that my SO sometimes gets the "no offense"...after someone was clearly saying something offensive. But, idk...even though we know it's offensive, it still somehow successfully buffers things/gives the person who said it some level of immunity. And, I'd be lying if I said I've never done it!

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Originally Posted by PrincessLuLu

It's pretty much impossible to pick apart what people say without going into an all out interrogation with them. If someone says "ma'am" then does it really matter if they thought you were actually a female or were just being polite? Either way, the experience was positive.

I've never been one to do the whole make-myself-look-bad-so-you-look-better thing. I just don't think it's necessary. If someone looks fabulous, you just say HEY, you look great! I see no need in breaking myself down along with it. I don't think it's the fault of the CDer if a GG is misleading in their compliments/statements or has a hidden meaning. And just because we're GGs doesn't mean we have the key to crack every verbal puzzle. Maybe there's not always a hidden message at all, but being the suspicious overthinkers that we are, we come up with possible alternatives anyways.

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Oh, there's nothing wrong with being polite and using the appropriate pronoun for the gender of the person in front of you (it Should be how that person is presented)...but, sometimes, things get a little hairy and you may or may not be sure what that person is going for...in that case, personally, I'd just substitute "y'all" or "you" for everything lol.

But, the people on this forum are good at seeing "fog speak"...where someone is on a feminine-rush and may not be thinking or talking realistically. And, many people here are able to see it, take it for what it's worth, and congratulate that person on whatever they just did to get them on the pink cloud. But, I'm not that good...I see someone who has just "passed" who declares their going to go permanently en femme as completely for real. For example, someone who dresses up real nice to go to Walmart after hours and who gets referred to with feminine pronouns declares that this just made them realize how well they blend as a woman...their first time out, probably overdressed at a Walmart after hours...and, so they're going full-time.

Part of me wants to say congrats...and, part of me wants to sit the person down for real-talk.

It's no one's responsibility really to do so...but, if we're here to help each other...how do you treat such situations?

On a second note, the "take yourself down a peg to lift your friend up" isn't every girl's cup of tea...there's certainly nothing wrong with being straightforward. But, my point is that you would understand what was going on if you were in that situation...you'd know the intentions.

As a society, we do over analyze things. It's from my own perspective that women are especially guilty if trying to find symbolic speech in something that is pretty cut-and-dry. I haven't done any studies lol so I have no idea statistically how it all goes...just me as a woman making an observation. I had a weird theory for a possible reason that women use symbolic speech with underlying messages frequently and why we find ourselves looking for it even when it isn't there. I started thinking that it wasn't too long ago that women could not speak their minds...having a strong opinion on something really Did have to be layered. I was wondering if coming from a group that (once upon a time) had really "no business" inserting their opinion came up with clever ways to do so...and, it still bleeds over. (Though not to discount a huge portion of the world where women are still second class citizens). Just a thought though.

But, it does seem like we are able to "understand" the speech of people like ourselves a bit better...pretty obvious. And, it's not even really that CDs should consider things beyond face value...but, also that as a GG, I still get a little "iffy" on pink fog communication. I see the responses where people say things like, "Oh, the pink fog...have fun!" And, I'm over here padding down my response because I'm afraid that this person seriously is making life-altering decisions based on their experience.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I think that even something like being born in the "female culture" shapes a lense for language that might be lost when trying to translate it for someone outside that culture. And, even when someone feels they "get it"...are they truly getting it or is it just that they get it from their own perception of the event? (Yes, I know, everything is relative...and, that's kind of my point).

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I didn't have any problem understanding your examples. I never heard any of the "Southern" examples while I was growing up (in Virginia), but they didn't seem all that hard to figure out. For that matter, guy-to-guy communication has a fair amount of subtext, too, and most guys figure it out.

IMHO, the reason many men don't understand women is because they don't actually listen to women. They've grown up in a culture that says that what women say, feel, or do is not worthy of men's attention. (Viz: mansplaining, Bechdel's rule, and comedians' attitudes towards women comedians.) And when a woman in their life blows up at them, do they listen and try put themselves in her place and understand where she's coming from? No. They go to their usual bar (or CD.com) and ask other men what's gotten her so upset. (Read the intro to How to Make Love to a Woman sometime.) And if a woman happens to overhear the conversation and offer an explanation, rule #1 is invoked (=nothing a woman says, etc., is worthy of a man's attention.) I see this going on here all the time.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I wondered if this is why my girlfriends have some "communication" problems with their boyfriends. I know I'm even guilty of trying to find what a guy was "really" saying in his text message...only to find out he really just meant what was written and nothing beyond that. But, it seems in the female nature to dissect language to find a "true meaning."

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Perhaps because the world is run by men to suit themselves, and women learn young that they have to figure out men's intentions if they want to survive.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

...The person taking our ticket kept emphasizing "Ladies" in every sentence. It was almost tongue-in-cheek. I was fuming as we walked away. My SO was elated...he was just called a lady. The actual intention of the message was lost to him.

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A similar thing happened to my late father-in-law. We were with him to pick up a rental car at the airport, and his reservation was in the name of "Professor X" because he was getting a University discount. The guy at the counter kept saying "Professor X" at least once in every sentence. His tone was respectful, but the mockery was still obvious to us all.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

And, I hated to reply with news that this Might not be the case...the woman might just have seen someone trying to pass as female and wished to be polite.

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IMHO, we shouldn't devalue "wishing to be polite." (Although I'd call it "kind.") The world could use a lot more of that. And if you see other people (such as this woman) as people, and not just props for your ego, somebody trying to be kind to you ought to make you feel at least as good as "passing" would.

This can work both ways. The first time I stayed in a hotel dressed, the waiter addressed me as "Madam" at least once in every sentence, and I just gritted my teeth and tried to smile. He then moved to the other tables, and treated every woman in the restaurant exactly the same way. I went back to that hotel a lot until it closed. He and all the other staff were lovely - and he continued to scatter "Madam" through any conversation with any female customer - and with me.

On the subject of women being better communicators, I would agree they usually, except for the scenario most of us (all of us?) in heterosexual relationships have experienced:

Man to evidently annoyed/upset partner: What's wrong?
Woman: nothing (but being good enough at non-verbal communicating to ensure the opposite meaning is conveyed).
Man retreats, mystified, but knows it is his fault.

So far, the women has communicated her feelings well but man doesn't know what he has doen wrong, so he can't apologise or avoid doing it again. Admittedly he will usually be advised of his misdemeanor a few hours later ... but it could have been cleared up earlier.

Is this success

Thanks for a great post Shananigans. I am aware of some of the sayings you mentioned; both my wife and I went to school in the South, although she was deeper South than I. I don't have much to add at this point, but you've given something for me to chew on tonight with how this relates to CDing. On a tangential note, I always tell my wife, "If I say something to you and there's two ways to take it, chances are I meant it in the nicest possible way." She's still trying to get the hang of that, even though that's what I always do when she says something ambiguous to me. I guess my policy is always to give people the benefit of the doubt, but don't be completely naive either.

How about... For a fat girl..... You don't sweat bad!:heehee:

Great post, Shananigans. My wife and I grew up and live just a wee bit deeper east and south of where you are. Think Honey: Boo-boo-ville.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree that if a person NOT from "'round here" were to hook up with someone from 'round here, then it's likely communications would suffer. Also, we're really very nice in the South and are likely to insinuate a person passes when they really do not. My wife is always telling me this pops with that when I'm dressed, or that I am very well put together. I absorb what she says and smile, but by no means do I think that the average Joe would think I'm r-e-a-l-l-y a girl. The 19" biceps are simply not all that girly :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

So, what I would like to know is do you think this could be an issue with some CDs not really understanding why their SO has suddenly become unaccepting? Also, when threads pop up in the "pink fog" where someone "passed" and decides to go whole hog with everything based on this experience...is it fair to burst their bubble and try to interpret what could be a missed translation? After all, it's all pretty relative...so, it's hard to know anyone's True intention by what they say. I do feel that being female sometimes makes me fall into a trap where I look for hidden meaning in language that doesn't exist...and, it seems like my girlfriends are also especially guilty. In our everyday speech, we rely on layering out messages...and, females are definitely not the only ones who do it (so, feel free to list your own experiences). But, is it something we should stress to those kind of caught in the fog? Or, is it best just to offer insight to people who might be using literal interpretations to say hateful things (usually about their wives lol).

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At the risk of making too broad of a generalization, in my experience most men, and by extension most CDs, tend to be more literal when speaking and listening than women. Subtlies and nuances can be lost with many men. I agree that sometimes women may read too much into things, but men are equally guilty of not looking for or realizing there may be more meaning beneath the words themselves.

I've take a number of inexperienced CDs to LGBT friendly and mainstream places for their first or one of their first few times out. It is quite common for them to misinterpret or misread comments and behaviors. A few examples come to mind. One time a gay man pointed and said to his friend while standing behind one CD in line at the bar "That's so sexy". It was taken literally as a compliment when it was dripping with sarcasm and I doubt the use of "That" was unintentional. Between not detecting the sarcasm and word choice, and not knowing some gay men think poorly of cross dressers, it was taken literally because the focus was on the words and not the deeper meaning. Another case is where a CD thought they must totally pass and look attractive because when leaving a bar and walking to their car, someone in a passing car whistled and yelled "Hey Baby". To keep the narrative short, there is no way this was the case for this CD. In both cases, I found a way to let them know by telling a more generic story not involving them, but with obvious parallels. I did not want to deflate their highs, but they also needed to better understand the realities. It can be difficult to know when to let things go and when to say something. If there is no harm in letting it go, I tend to do so.

For an example involving a SO, I have a friend who did not understand why her wife blew up one day. The CD was out with other CD friends for 8 of the last 9 Saturdays and was puzzled when the SO got angry about it. Two things came out of our conversion. One was the belief 8 out of 9 was a good balance between CD time and SO time (we had a previous discussion about finding a good balance). The other was "We had nothing planned and I asked if I could go, she said it was OK". After picking up my jaw from the table after the first statement, I had to explain that "yes" or "It's OK" was taken literally when it was not always meant that way. It was hard to explain that being given permission was not exactly the same as it being totally OK with the SO. The message being sent to the SO by going out that much was totally lost on the CD. Unfortunately, the damage was done and it never did quite sink in so they are in the process of getting a divorce.

As previously mentioned by others, I've seen numerous case where the use of "you guys" or a female identifier is processed the wrong way. Or the lack of notice or reaction while in public meant a CD totally passed. We have all read posts here where a CD was given an "inch" by their SO and they took off like it was a mile; or confusing initial tolerance with complete acceptance then posting about how unfair or unsupportive the SO suddenly became. Often this originates from the differences in literal and between the lines interpretation of statements and words.

Confirmational bias can severly affect the way identical words or situations are processed by different individuals. All of our biases, personal experiences, knowledge, ignorances and agendas influence and color what we see and hear. If you think the world is mostly anti-LGBT, you interpret anything negative as discrimination or hate while those who think the world is mostly indifferent or pro-LGBT, the exact same situation is interpreted very differently. Social niceties or politeness can be taken literally, more so by men. Men tend not to compliment each other over perceived smaller things, and the art of reciprocal compliments is a mystery or an unknown to many of them. Pink fog acts as a form of confirmational bias or a factor in misinterpretation which messes things up even more.

Language, especially the written form in the absence of other visual and audio clues, can sometimes be very tricky to navigate and scattered with land mines.

Well, as to the replies about men having listening problems...I feel like my SO is pretty good at listening...actually probably better than I am at listening. I'll just go ahead and admit it...I sometimes catch myself not really listening to people...instead, I just watch them talk while I think about what I am supposed to say next. Usually, this is when I am super nervous... But, I know that I feel like my SO isn't listening if he clams up. When I am mad, I kind of bombard an argument with expressing my frustrations from every angle possible, and I don't let up. My SO reacts (probably in the best way possible), by just shutting up...and, by doing so, I get in an awkward situation where I can't escalate anything any further. Even worse, he will listen to everything that I say and when I accuse him of not listening, he gives my main points back to me AND explains to me that he "can't argue with me because I'm too smart." This is pretty sly...he defused the argument by complimenting me. So, I would be on my high horse and thinking, "Why, yes...I have defeated you with my intellect."

In actuality, he kind of "won"...he just wanted me to get over my assault of whatever I'm feeling like arguing about at that particular time. I think we work as a couple because he just kind of allows me to debate with myself over an issue until I wear myself out lol.

So, in all honesty, I can't say much about men not listening...I'm the bad listener. I also tend to be the hot-headed, argumentative type...and, my SO is a great listener, incredibly sweet, and only argumentative around his brother. (When "the brothers" are involved, it seems we are all at a war of debate with each other...and, the person arguing the loudest wins).

We have fun.

I know when many girls are arguing with their boyfriends, they will say that nothing is wrong in hopes that the boyfriend knows on some instinctive level that something is actually wrong/runs away with her on his back in an Edward Cullen-fashion.

However, I'm more of the one that begins things with, "Now, let me tell you why I have a problem with you right now." I exist day-today in a somewhat sardonic mood and it can be hard to tell (if you don't know me) when I am actually pissed at someone. My boyfriend, on the other hand, is like a saint...and, I think I'm one of the rare people that gets to see him get worked up on an issue...LOVE it.

So, I'm not sure where we stand on That gender spectrum. Regular Shannon is pretty blunt...especially when I have a problem with you. But, I adapt a certain way of communicating with my girlfriends that makes my SO scratch his head. It isn't because he's a bad listener. (Quite the opposite). And, it isn't that I am naturally passive aggressive...unless sarcasm counts. (He's much more passive aggressive/not very aggressive). Therefore, I feel like the whole "dual speech" isn't so much Necessarily due to those things.

But, that's just us...I can't speak for everyone's experience...or, really discredit something entirely because it doesn't apply to my situation. I'd say such observations that are noted here as far as lack of listening may be a contributor to many communication issues...but, I guess, I am sticking up for the male gender in a way because I am actually the bad one with that in my relationship.

I don't put too much stock in talk as I know it can be utilized as a smoke screen sometimes and while I usually listen to what is said, I tend not to over analyze it. Talk is cheap after all but feelings are what really count. I have developed my empathic abilities and regardless of what is said, I feel what is coming from the heart and can sense how someone really feels. A lot of what we do is all about feelings, including crossdressing even though many may not admit it. Even so I don't wear my heart on my sleeve so to speak and can be enigmatic when I say things purposely some times just to see if the other person is paying attention. If I spout out a "$500 " word without comment from the other person, it's a fair indication that they are not really listening or just "yessing" me to death.

When I give a compliment though I mean it and it's from the heart. If someone asks for my advice, I will give it to them honestly. Years ago in a particular Marvel comic, the character Hercules said it best: "Mortals, Bah! Can ye not accept simply what is said and not seek hidden meanings?" I rest my case. BTW, I mean it when I say you are one fine person Shan and a good friend. Carry on.:battingeyelashes::)

Thank you, thank you, thank you Shananigans.

I think you hit the nail right on the head with why men and women are so different. I think a lot of it has to do with the way each perceives the world around them.

In the past I find that when I spent time with the guys, there was definitely fog speak with each other. However, I think that the style of fog speak is different between men and women. I also find that when I communicate with my SO, I drop the fog speak without thinking; maybe because it's how I express myself to her honestly and I believe that I should always be honest with her.

She on the other hand has told me that she doesn't trust other women and that will put her on high alert. I noticed that when she is on high alert, she will always look for hidden meaning in what is being said. When we argue, she is on high alert for what ever reason, she looks for the hidden meaning in my words when I am not using fog speak with her at all.

Over the years I have learned how to deal with this issue to the point where I think my fog speak skills have gotten better. I will admit that I have a long way to go, but I am improving.

Again, thank you Shananigans. You have helped me to find a new direction to improve myself as a person and a CDer.

Love and Hugs,
Jamie

I have sincerely enjoyed reading everyone's comments and anecdotes of encounters; this topic is something new to think about.

Have you ever noticed how people, both men and women, preface what they are about to say with something like, " I have a good friend who is..........to add credibility to what they are about to share with you. We all like to be believed, even if it just our opinion.

Do you think I "sincerely enjoyed" reading everyone's comments or just wanted to add to my credibility and acceptance????

Ive got one.

My wife and i went to the drag show. The main stage is in a room that is non smoking, so we went out into the pool hall to have a cigarette. A man was playing pool near the table we were standing at, somehow conversation started up. Mostly it was just strangers shooting the breeze, but at the end of the conversation he turns to my wife and says "you look really pretty" and then turns to walk away but stops and says to me "oh and your pretty too. Even if im not gay."

I just smiled that bitch smile i get when im trying really hard not let my shade tree shake out some insults. However my wife was furious....i know because her heels hit really hard on the floor when shes on the warpath.....

One more.

We are sitting at a winery having some drinks with friends, im in full Drag. One guy, who was very drunk was standing behind me and talking to another guy. Here is their conversation.

Guy 1 "Dude im leaving"

Guy 2 "Why we just got here"

Guy 1 "Im not buying drinks for chicks with d****"

At this moment our whole table of 8, which is full of members from the LGBT community, turns and looks at the same time i do.

Guy 1 "oh well i didnt mean you....We are sorry" he says to me as im glaring at him.

Guy 2 "Ok ill see you later, im gonna hang out" he says as the other guy walks off.

Guy2 then says to me "hey dont let him apologize for me, im not the one being an ass. Thats his BS."

Which i thought was nice of him. At least he was making an effort to pull the boot from his friends mouth.

Backhanded compliments are a southern way of life. When your raised amongst it though it doesnt have the sharpness that it may have to people who are not raised around it.

-Donni-

As somebody who's Asian and from the dirty south like yourself, I actually get that conversion from the first couple paragraphs a lot Shananigans. You're correct that they are merely trying to identify with us and trying to show that they are open minded however awkward the conversation is becoming.

As for the rest of what you had in the OP, I don't really have a comment since I know that I'll never figure out what goes on in the minds of women.... bless their hearts.

One of your points jumped rite out for me, Shana. At my advanced age, I've had lots of experience with a large number of women. I've given up trying to understand them and how u think. Recently, I've decided I'm not likely to ever understand what they REALLY mean when they say something!

When a woman says, "No", it can mean, "Yes", or, "Maybe". Or, something in between. And, can change from one to another in a matter of minutes. I'll never figure it out. And, my guesses haven't worked well either!

Which brings me to another point that may be MORE relevent here. When a TG asks if we, or states that she, "Feels feminine"?
How can I possibly know what that feels like since I've never been one and can't even understand women? How can any man?

And, that makes me wonder about TS's? Can anyone who starts out as a man, (Yes, I know u may not FEEL like men. But, how do u know for sure?), ever be able to think like a woman? No matter how many surgeries or hormones one takes, can one really become a she? Of course, his thinking, nature, and living traits will change. And, she may THINK she feels she's a woman. But, can a TS truly be COMPLETELY changed into a female enuff to think like one? Or, must it be something else? Maybe not male or female but something else that's different from both? If this sounds ignorant, it's because I am! I have no idea of what being TS is like!

I've really enjoyed everyone's replies/experiences...even if a lot of it is bad stuff that has happened.

I seriously just HAD to add something that happened really recently. It wasn't really anything "hidden meaning," so much as it's sort of just awkward the way my friends and I handled "foot-in-mouth" situations drastically differently.

I have a lot of male friends...and, I feel like they're comfortable with me...but, then, they sort of "slip" and there's a quick cover-up so as not to offend my vagina (or something). They were making fun of chicks at the bar...how they dress like skanks and blah blah...one guy recalled a "tacky Christmas sweater" event where a girl was wearing a tight sweater that said "Ho Ho Ho." So, they were all like, "How obvious can you get, right? I was just about to unbutton my pants and say, 'Well, if you insist...'" I gave a stinky look and said, "My grandmother bought me a sweater that says Ho Ho Ho...I don't think she meant anything by it...but, if you drop your pants at the notion, I'll probably have to slap you hard in the balls...I mean, you're standing there without pants...it's like, 'I guess I'll slap your balls, if you insist...'"

The guys responded with Silence. I was mentally working on my next come back.

Finally, the offending male friend was like, "Well, it's different...you're obviously not a dumb ho...but, some girl at a bar with That sweater." This basically turned into me saying, "So, I am at a bar now...but, my sexual history changes depending on my sweater?"

Then, no one talked for about 3 full minutes. Then, finally, our friend (who wasn't in the conversation) defused the whole situation with a King of the Hill "Yep" and a drink of the beer. And, naturally, we all "yeeep" and take a drink.

Situation done. On to next topic.

That same night, I ran in to a girl I hadn't seen since undergrad. She was always a huge gossip...and, she had the scoop on Everyone. I try my hardest not to get involved in gossip...but, I let myself slip and it REALLY bit me in the butt.

We were talking about this random dude...who none of us ever see at this bar we frequent...it's like a random weeknight...we never hang out with this guy. So, we're talking about this girl we know that was dating the Random Dude in question. (We'll call the random dude Greg).

(This was the sort of how it went)
Gossip Girl: And, did you know he's dating So-and-So?!
Me: What?!
Gossip Girl: yeah...seriously...I mean, he steals everything that moves...everyone knows it...but...apparently, he's cleaned up enough to date So-and-So...and, you know how super religious she is...can't see those two together.
Me: But, seriously...Greg...who would date him? He'd steal your wallet and then offer to pay for the date.
Guy in Our Group: Oh! Hey...Greg...
Greg: hey, saw y'all over here. Shannon...long time no see...you're looking good.

I literally felt like I had been hit by a bus.

Immediately, me and Gossip Girl recover.

Me: Greg! Wow, haven't seen you in forever...I heard through the grape vine you and So-and-So are now dating...it's cute to see people who went to college together coupling up...errrr *looks to Gossip Girl*
Gossip Girl: I know! We love So-and-So...we were Just saying what an unlikely couple y'all are!...
Me: Tell So-and-So hey for us!!

I literally felt so horrible that I cried to my SO that night...ended up sending Greg an apology...

My SO was like, "Seriously, he's not even thinking about it...you're thinking too much about it..."

But, it was weird in that night, my guy friends responded to "heat" with silence, a defusing laugh, and moved on...

My friend and I responded to our "heat" by weaving some mess that Still said we were talking about him...even the context of it... But, were terrified at his sudden appearance and the fact he was Actually Nice to us...

Which...was probably him making us feel like jerks...worked.

But, it was weird to me that we just weaves this half truth...with hidden tones of "we were talking crap about you." And, we basically quickly scuttled off to the bathroom 5 minutes later to be like, "Wtf was he doing here?! Omg!!"

My guy friends were so beyond the mild level of "heat" after one sip of beer.

I REALLY envy guy dynamics sometimes. And, it's nice to actually MOVE ON with an issue. My best friend and I didn't talk for 3 months once...and we lived together...we'd straight up ignore each other in the mornings as we shared a sink. My SO thought it was the craziest thing he'd ever seen. (I can't even remember what the fight was about).

And...lord I can't believe I am admitting this...I seem like such a bad person...and, I am kind of a vindictive little bitch...but, she made me soooo mad one day after talking about me to this other girl as if I wasn't in the next room...then, basically, there was this whole "rift" where she would just alienate me from doing things with my other girlfriends. (and, they didn't really want to be in the middle of it).

So, when I showed up to our sorority chapter the next night to see my seat assignment had been swapped and I was in the back row...basically, with the freshmen...I sort of retaliated...

And, I literally went back to our dorm and scrubbed the toilet bowl spotless with her toothbrush.

My SO was horrified. He couldn't believe me. I can't believe me! She doesn't know to this day...I just liked to see her brush her teeth and Know...

We were friends again within a week...but, I couldn't exactly tell her to change her toothbrush... :-/

I told another gf about this and she was like, "Omg...I've been there! She probably did the same to YOUR toothbrush."

My SO declared he couldn't handle being around a concentrated area of young women...that when we fight, it's like a mental war where we destroy each other, alienate, and passive aggressively screw with each other...

And, it's been true...but, jeez...we were like 21 and evil.

We're so much better now when we fight...and, dont live together :-/

It seems like in nursing, I see some of this "catty", passive behavior occurring too. It's actually a pretty big deal in nursing....we have whole seminars about bullying each other lol.

The male nurses (all 2 of them) just shake their heads in disgust.

And, a huge part of the "work place bullying" involves the usage of language with dual meanings and passive aggression.

After writing this...I think I am actually going to actively just try not to talk that way anymore...and, give a look of confusion if a woman uses it on me.

My mom always told me it was just teenage girls...then, it was just sorority girls...then, it was, "Well, this is just what happens when you have a bunch of women working and competing with each other." (She's a nurse).

Not sure what to think, honestly.

I've humiliated myself enough...confession time over...don't judge too harshly :-/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

One of your points jumped rite out for me, Shana. At my advanced age, I've had lots of experience with a large number of women. I've given up trying to understand them and how u think. Recently, I've decided I'm not likely to ever understand what they REALLY mean when they say something!

When a woman says, "No", it can mean, "Yes", or, "Maybe". Or, something in between. And, can change from one to another in a matter of minutes. I'll never figure it out. And, my guesses haven't worked well either!

Which brings me to another point that may be MORE relevent here. When a TG asks if we, or states that she, "Feels feminine"?
How can I possibly know what that feels like since I've never been one and can't even understand women? How can any man?

And, that makes me wonder about TS's? Can anyone who starts out as a man, (Yes, I know u may not FEEL like men. But, how do u know for sure?), ever be able to think like a woman? No matter how many surgeries or hormones one takes, can one really become a she? Of course, his thinking, nature, and living traits will change. And, she may THINK she feels she's a woman. But, can a TS truly be COMPLETELY changed into a female enuff to think like one? Or, must it be something else? Maybe not male or female but something else that's different from both? If this sounds ignorant, it's because I am! I have no idea of what being TS is like!

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Well, to be honest, I find it hard to describe "that just made me feel so feminine." I had never thought much about it until I was on this forum. I have always said that I feel most feminine when I'm just being me around my other female friends...we all have similar experiences/stories...and, we seem to have all "been there."

But, obviously, being around some women kind of sucks (as described previously)...

So, yeah, it wasn't something I thought about...I was just kind of arbitrarily born into this group...so, I just identify with the same problems that people in my "designated group" have faced.

But, I also don't know how it feels to be TS...I like to just think a MTF TS is just another woman, but we have very different backgrounds/experiences in life. And, it's good to be around people like that.

It's just a common thing on this thread that women are nice, humble, gentle, and sort of weak...it's usually not something I see in the TS population. Usually, it's someone who kind of has a tarty avatar and declares that if he were a woman, he'd be a huge ho.

I counter that if he had been born female, he'd probably not be thinking like that...thus, it's sort of the anti-feminine lol. It comes off relatively masculine, in actuality... But, again, that's not something I see very often in my TS friends...but, you know...everyone is different.

But, yeah, women are seen as gentle, sweet, nurturing... However, after spending 4?years living in close quarters with many college-aged girls, my SO would probably say women aren't usually overtly aggressive, but (when in anger) our passiveness is on a level that we just destroy/go on all-out mental warfare...and, we seem to have an arsenal of Exactly what to say to just really make you think you need counseling.

It's sometimes rough. I'm hoping it's just like my age-group...but, I've been saying that for over 10 years now... Maybe, I surround myself with mean girls...maybe I am one...I try not to be...but, I have had some low, low, LOW moments :(

EDIT: lol well, now, I just fee bad...worst crap I've done in recent years. But, seriously...I'm just going to go ahead and say that after pondering this, it's probably just best to say what you mean. (Please, GOD, don't think it's something you got to do to "blend," or whatever). Probably best just to be straight forward when you're mad at someone too...and, not clean a toilet with their toothbrush just for your own personal satisfaction. Cough... :(

Well, I certainly hope u feel better after that cathartic confession, Shana? Of course, u know most guys here will forget it in no time?

I was all guy for 50 years and can tell u 2 things for sure. Guys don't get immediate satisfaction from things like tooth brushes in toilets. A guy would scrub a turd with it and watch your face screw up as u tasted it! And, instead of feeling guilty, would soon forget about it. They BOTH mite!

And, we don't remember incidents the way women do. We tend to either like people or not. We don't even think about why. We just do! And, if someone u don't like pisses u off too much, u mite say things to try to make them look stupid. If that doesn't work, then we may have to get nasty!

But, 2 guys who don't like each and, maybe even had a confrontation the nite before, could sit down in a room just the 2 of them. And, a bit later, come out as buddies. Been there, done that! And, the fact that we don't like the other guy is completely forgotten. I have never done that with a woman. They remember everything, forever! Guys don't care that much about such things.

Ok, it's a old stereotype that guys only care about their immediate needs. Like a burger, beer, and to get laid. And, that long, deep, intellectual discussions about feelings are simply pointless and a waste of time. I think it's clear from the many involved discussions here that that's not entirely tru.

But, like so many stereotypes, where there's smoke there's usually fire. And then this, a year from now a guy may not remember who he argued with and why. But, a woman? She'll remember every detail including the weather, time of day, and what she was wearing!

Oh, Shannon, what an awesome post! And, no, there is no hidden meaning in that, it is probably as close to straight-up "guyspeak" as I get!

You wrote about my worst "girlworld" situation. After all these years I know all about the complimentary insults, the double meanings, the hidden messages, and I always think I know how to parse sentences and detect the nuances and the subtle traps in "womenspeak." But when I begin to be comfortable in a group of women I slip into what I know best, which is interpreting language as a guy and my radar starts dozing just when a GG would know to have hers turned on. Not good, and sometimes I've been blindsided and hurt because I become such an easy mark. It really is the "final frontier" and I can only hope that someday it becomes as natural and automatic for me as it is for most GG's.

On the fun side, particularly the fun side of being Southern, my spouse and I were both raised in the South (places like Tyler, Texas and Auburn, Alabama), but we both spent time in places like New York City, hanging out with northern relatives so we were a bit bilingual. For at least part of our education we both went to the same small Southern college and although in different classes we both had the same experience.

The majority of the faculty were Southern born and bred. But every once in a while we'd get a student who somehow came from the north to be in our little school. Sometimes these students would raise their hand, and when called upon, would ask a question. And sometimes the Professors would look utterly confused. It wa as if someone had just spoken in Tagalog or Romansh or Ongota.

In each case, depending upon who was in the class, my spouse or I would say, "Excuse me Dr. --- but I believe she was asking . . . " and we'd translate into Southern. Then the Professor would answer, the student would look blank, and we'd translate it back for the northerner. It was a lot like that "I speak jive" scene in Airplane (click here, contains audio)! But it worked!

Hugs,
Persephone.

I feel that the differences are primarily because males and females are deliberately reared to think and act differently. We're literally taught different rules and values regarding how to relate to other people, so we are essentially taught to not understand the opposite sex. Unless we start raising all children exactly the same way, those differences will always cause problems to one degree or another. There are a few brave parents who try to raise their children without enforcing gender differences or roles, but realistically, that's not going to happen in significant numbers any time soon.

Carol

The failure at translating the meaning of things is certainly not unique to CDrs, but we have our own special vulnerabilities. I would bet that a significant percentage equate being called "ma'am" with passing. In my case, I know its not, but I still enjoy being treated like a lady, regardless of the situation. (OK, I can probably think of a situation where I wouldn't appreciate it...but I digress)

Also, I think its human nature to at least attempt to build rapport by expressing some measure of tolerance. How many African American's have cringed when they've heard some white person mention that he/she has several black friends ...as though this proves their open-mindedness. I'm sure some of the apparent tolerance I've encountered is based in the other person's desire to seem progressive. It might be an act, but then I can't read minds. So, if they behave in a tolerant manner, that's a good start.

The matter of misunderstanding a seemingly accepting spouse cuts a bit deeper. I suspect that "acceptance" may not have been quite what the CDr thought to begin with and that he/she often overwhelms a SO who responds with some limited tolerance. We can push a bit of acceptance into rejection rather quickly in that manner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

I have my favorites in this. Like "I having nothing against you..." and you know that they really do.

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To extrapolate, "I have nothing against crossdressers. It's those f+++ing faggots I can't stand.". Somehow I don't think they're going to be supporting GENDA...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

"Some of my best friends are....." and this is important because?

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Although it doesn't happen much these days, there was a time when just about every Black person heard this with alarming regularity. I guess it is SS-DD...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I know I'm even guilty of trying to find what a guy was "really" saying in his text message...only to find out he really just meant what was written and nothing beyond that.

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Exactly!! Often I hear - usually from young women - "Guys are so hard to understand" and I tell them that we're really not, but you are trying to parse what we say through your own mischievous, Machiavellian little filters. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

And, another example that comes to mind is someone here who felt that he was successfully passing as a woman because a woman said "ma'am" to him.

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Heh heh. Yup. When women compliment us, we tent to go ballistic, and reason flies out the window. Hey, look what a compliment did to this poor sap! (replace "cute" with "ma'am"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PNRPouqD_M

In my earlier years I took everything said at face value. That's what he/she said, so that's what was meant, right? Uh-huh, I wised up eventually.

One thing I did learn (besides "Nothing!" means a whole lot!) is when a woman says "What?", she heard you all right; she's now giving you the chance to revise that statement you just made.

Leah