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Last Sunday I was at a race circuit [Brands Hatch] and it was the lunch brake for us marshals, six of us.
So for some reason men that wear dresses came up in the conversation.
After about five minutes of jokes about the ‘weirdoes that dress like a woman’ the conversation moved on.
Will I come out of the closet anytime soon?..................I think not!
or don't come out among race marshals. There may be more accepting venues.
Come on out Suzy! There ought to be a law that says it's illegal to hide all that BEAUTY from the rest of us! Shame on you!!!!!!
Suzy,
I know all well where you are coming form and it is the best way you can enjoy both worlds.
I am also aware of what is outside the closet.
I will send Basil Fawlty in to check the closet for white ants though. :)
The point I was making was the world can be nasty place for girls like us.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimdl93
And what happened on Sunday just reminded me and reinforced my resolve to never come out.
I am not a coward its just a choice that I and many other CD girls choose for very good reasons, including people like that!
And thank you Cynthia:)
Yep, I'm riding on the same bus you are Suzy. Two seperate worlds for me, and I enjoy them both. No reason to upset the apple cart at this point.
Like I posted in another thread, many people's experiences with CDers isn't a very positive one. I realize that a lot of us are not in positions to come out to others, mainly because it would lead to a battle they can't or don't need to fight, but if a lot of people knew that most crossdressers aren't perverted "weirdos in women's clothing" but rather the guy next door, or the guy in the next cubicle, or the guy sitting on their right or left while they are making the jab at the "weirdos" they'd think twice about the ribbing. While it is sometimes seen as a sign of bonding, particularly in male circles, to give someone a hard time about something like "Oh man, I'd never be caught dead doing something girly like watching a musical. By the way, Jimmy, how was Grease last night?" it actually can discourage people from being true to themselves, mainly because that teasing can be perceived as a mild form of bullying.
That being said, I know what it's like to be in a crowd of people who, if they knew about your CDing, would run you out of town thinking you were perverted. In many circles, if they found out about someone CDing, they'd be like that scene in Family Guy, where Stewie was posing as a girl and in a beauty pageant and his wig falls off, a crowd of people in Texas exclaim "It's one of those queerosexuals, get 'im!" and proceed to chase them down wanting to beat all of the Griffin family up.
I love dressing at home. Always have and always will. I especially like being able to switch parts of an outfit to find the very best mix. Then settle down with a glass of wine and enjoy the erotic sensations of heels and hose and garters and...........
I am in the closet too but I think it is sad that much of the world views cd's as they do and I always applaud girls who venture out of the closet and make the world a little more acceptable for all of us. I was out openly in Las Vegas and walked around femme a few months ago and it was a totally different and wonderful feeling.
It seems to me that people just say things like that in group situations not to "look weird" themselves and be apart of the group. Dressing aside, it happens to all of us.
This would have been a good opportunity to try and see if they were just being socially accepted or actually are close minded by throwing a neutral (yet fun) curve ball. Like Poking fun : " Ya Dave, but you would look pretty in a dress" (during joke time) or "I hear some wives/GF's like to dress up their hubbies" or "did you hear that there are couples doing this stuff together now"?
just my 2cents
Obviously they were referring to the ones who don't dress with your style and class! :)
Suzy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the closet. It gets a bit crowded in here, but some of us would not be able to do this with out its relative security. Would I like the freedom to dress openly, of course. Do I recognize this is not going to happen? Of course. Well, I do get out enfemme from time to time ;)
However, this does not mean the enjoyment we get from dressing must be relegated to the closet's confines in totality. Rather, it means we must exercise some judgment understating the perception others may have of us. The world is not ready for 'in your face' crossdressers, though some queens still have a go at it.
Be happy and have fun with this thing we love. Get out when you can and enjoy your femininity as the occasions arise.
Hugs, Robin
quick thought. Narrow mindedness is contagious. What if they had said that about an ethnic group? Gays? Physically handicapped people? Or even more subtle, goths, preppies, motorcyclists? Seems they had an easy shot and since no one was going to stop them they took it. I wonder what they would do if they found out the champion of the circuit was...gay? Or a crossdresser? I would even suspect they would not accept a woman in that role because it threatens their masculinity.
Narrow minded people seek their own. Just the discussion had to make you feel uncomfortable. I would seriously consider not being their friend...but that is me.
The point is most people do not understand us. They have preconceived ideas about us including my friends and my family. So do I stop being friends with them all then Lorileah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Your views on this are simplistic.
I tell all my fellow marshals and then there will be no more involvement in motorsport for me and it’s a major part of my life! I am well known by most other marshals around the race circuits.
They are not narrow minded unless you count the vast majority of mankind as being narrow minded.
We must try to live in the real world.
At least a “presence” of males who dress like women has been established where you are. In my little corner of the world, a gaggle of males would never bring up that particular topic in conversation, since the MtF crossdresser is a rare bird indeed – out of sight, out of mind…Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy1
I posted on an earlier thread that the problem of cross dressing does not lay with the cross dresser. It lays with the narrow minded bias people. Lorileah asks what about ethnic groups, gays,physically handicapped, etc. Well, the narrow minded people put down anyone who is not themselves. Yes, it may be a group thing. Some may just sit or join in. That may be part of the problem. I see it every day. I encounter people who have known me for a very long time and they must think, since I've known them that long, I have the same beliefs as them. Well, they end up putting both feet in their mouths.
In most people's minds cross dressing still does not compute.
There is more tolerance towards gays and lesbians and transsexuals.
I prefer to enjoy my cross dressing. I don't have a problem. People who don't accept what I may due have the problem. I remain in the closet because negative effects of cross dressing slop over to family, job, etc.
I will agree, the problem lies with the narrow minded people, not with cross dressing. At my "advanced age", I don't seem to care as much about what others think about it. Going out is fun for me and that is all that counts. That said, for any one who only want to dress in private, we should all be fine and accepting with that too. We are all individuals, and everyone has the right to be themselves (short of illegal things or hurting others of course).
So you condone this activity by not standing up. You didn't have to say "Hey! I am one!" but you could have said "Hey, you know different strokes. Now about the Ford Fiesta..." but no that would be simplistic. By allowing people to make jokes or derogatory remarks and not confronting them, you are basically condoning them. Simplistic? Yes. But then again, a better world starts with a simple idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy1
And no I wouldn't not be "friends" with them but I would not make an effort to be with them either
My own family and all my friends?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
We will agree to disagree on this Lorileah but I respect your viewpoint.
Suzy, I'm sorry that you were hurt by the commentsof the other marshals who have a styerotypical veiw of us. I think that acceptannce is something that only comes slowly as people become knowable of other lifestyles. Not to many years ago gays and lesbians were just "queers" and now there is much more acceptance of these lifestyles.
I'm not suggesting that you should have told the other marshals that you are cd, but acceptance will come from a slow prosess of education of the general public. Do what you can when in drab to suggest that cd's are not all that different from other lifestyles, ie not preverts or some other weird thing.
Just by the way, I wish I could be a race participant at Brand Hatch, it is such a famous venue. I have only been to tracks in the US. My favorite way to enjoy them is as a driver, I've been at it for about 40 years. Bria
These are many people these days that get angry at "others" just because they like the president or think waiting periods for gun owners might be a good idea. I wouldn't conduct my life according to the preferences of the ignorant and closed minded.
I'm glad when a person or group I happen to be with are open about their attitudes towards lifestyles different form their own. It means I can decide whether I need to bother listening to them or not in the future.
So why can't it just be okay if other folks don't understand us? Must we label them as "narrow minded"? Maybe they are just afraid to admit that they might find CD's attractive and that might mean that they're sort of "gay"!
I can live with folks that may be afraid of me. I kind of like the ones who find me attractive and are not afraid to say so.
Hi Suzi,
I went Marshalling at Brands for the motorbikes years ago, 70s in fact. Southern 67 I believe was the club. One or two decent memories with my dad there.
On the subject of confronting everyone who makes a remark we don't like, sometimes I do make a stand, sometimes I don't. But I also stand by, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Rebecca
Sad to say Suzy but it is for the most part an un accepting world out there, I do go out from time to time but am very careful about when and where I go..... nothing wrong with the closet GF. Just makes me thankful for this place and all the others here!!
Next time, pick one of the guys out and say, "If you dressed up, I wouldn't think you were a weirdo. Who cares if you like sitting around the house in a house dress!? You'd still be the same guy to me."
My reply in these sort of situations whether it be about CFs,gaysor any other minority groupis ,it would be a boring life if we were all the same, besides I might look damn good in a dress.
Suzy:
I am with you on the closet thing; But I found it cramped, so about 10 years ago now,
I added to the House/closet with a large addition.
Now I have a much bigger closet to Rome around in.
Rader
Yes RADER, the closet is so nice and cosy. I am a very happy bunny in my one and life is good.:)
Don't you feel that by not throwing out a "counter opinion" that you are sort of throwing"your lifestyle" under the bus? To say nothing counter[and speaking up doesn't have to "out" you. Like Lori,what if they were putting down race or religion,or some other form of bigotry? I just think you could have had something POSITIVE to interject and take the wind out of their sails...
I'm perfectly happy that you're perfectly happy in your cozy closet, Suzy. You don't feel the interest, desire or need to go out, so why bother. That's entirely ok. ...although I do recall that you recently went out to offer a cup of tea to an attractive gentleman working near your home... So the closet isn't hermetically sealed is it :)
And I know people - acquaintances I'd characterize them as - who might express attitudes like the fellows you described in the OP. I'm not sure why gay or TG people would come up in such group. Maybe its macho posturing, but recall a recent post where a brother who often made such disparaging remarks actually proved to be much more accepting when the abstract notion of TG turned out to be his own sibling.
I guess my point is that genderphobic comments of a group of guys doesn't make the world any less safe for those of us who do choose to go out. My guess is that none of these fellows really harbors any ill will or intent to harm...it was simply thoughtless bigotry.
I've been in your high heels Suzy but unlike you I have come out to numerous people. There are however, places and people I would never mention my dressing to. My previous jobs as carpenter and truck driver, and my present job in a hardware store are several of those places. I'm usually observant of my surroundings to know whom I can trust and those I can't. Those who I've come out to are very supportive and understanding.
Perhaps you could constructively shift the chat a degree or two without coming out or being at all confrontational: "yah well what about those folks who dress up for Revolutionary War enactments? Ever been to the Renaissance Faire? And have you seen those kids doing cosplay?" You might be surprised by what comes out, and how the chat might could shift toward acceptance of different strokes in costume games.
Several reasons why I did not ‘throw out a counter opinion’ Rogina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogina B
One, you start that and they start jumping to conclusions, “so you are a trany then?”
Two, I am not that good a person to worry too much about fighting for the cause, sorry.
Three, the next race was forming up on the start line and I had to get back on post.
Four, if it did get out that I am a crossdresser my life would effectively be over. No motorsport, no friends and my family never looking at me in the same way ever again.
You live in your world Rogina, I will live in my world!
Hi Suzy, Pick your battles wisely.
Suzy,You are welcome to live in your world.However,some of us here think that it wouldn't have been wrong to nicely derail that conversation..without outting yourself..It can be done.. Anyway,I had a thought when I read your response...I hope you have a secret "disposal plan" in place if anything happens to you! I can picture a well attended church service for you when someone starts whispering around that "they found a trunk hidden away with no dust on it...so HE must have been one of THOSE.." As the word spreads,your friends get up and leave the service! Do you really think your secret life is THAT bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy1
Suzy needs a hug. I've been in similar situations and it can be such a shock that it's hard to know what to say. It's so unexpected - suddenly someone is commenting on a TG in a negative way. Anything said in their defense can open up a can of worms. I tried to enlighten someone in a group setting once but didn't want to get into a whole discussion that would reveal my expertise on transgender.
Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but I've never heard anything negative about trans-people from my friends or colleagues. If I did, I'd probably speak up. I'm pretty well-known for being on the so-called "liberal" end of the spectrum when it comes to gay rights (which most people confuse with trans-rights), so I'm not worried anyone would suspect anything.
I have had conversations simular to this come up at work, or around a bunch of guys at a pub. I take the high road and defend the crossdresser, or gay person, what ever the arguement may be. Of course the conversation gets turned against me, and I get accused of being a crossdresser or gay, but I just play it that I have no issue how another person lives their lives as long as it does not impact mine. The other guys in the conversation generally give me a hard time about it, but once they see that I really do not react the conversation moves on to something else.
A while back at work someone mentioned guys wearing "woman's" high heels and how weird it was. I said that I had not problem with someone wearing what ever they wanted to and one of the guys made a wise crack to me. "you would look good in a pair of high heeled heels". I agreed with him and said I prefer closed toe pumps with a 4 inch heels. Everyone just looked and me and said nothing and the conversation just stopped! I am pretty sure they were trying to figure out if I was joking or not!
Suzy dont be afraid. Just choose the company you want to keep. You dont need to come out to everyone if it is too scary. I know i wont. Erica usually takes a small trip before she goes out.
Having been around professional motorsports and drivers (as well as other professional athletes), I really wonder if your life would be over. Seems that the job you do on the course should be what makes you in the sport, not the underwear you wear. :idontknow:
I have said it before, it matters not that you are part of a certain demographic, when that demographic is the butt of disparaging remarks and jokes, it doesn't take much to change the subject and say "you know, what you are saying is wrong, now let's talk about....".
And, no Dawn, you travel in the right circles. Degradation is the easiest form of humor. It takes the least amount of thinking. So when someone degrades another I see it as a sign of immaturity and lack of self confidence. As Rogina stated, you don't have to out yourself, you just have to stand up for what is right. If they ask "are you a crossdresser?" you can always do what you do now...just say "no". If they ask why you are defending us, just say that you don't think that being mean and derogatory to any lifestyle or group is very mature.
I used to be one of those who told jokes about ethnic groups or minorities. I do understand how when you are in a pack, you get the pack mentality. Sure, you want to belong. I was 18. Now I have moved beyond that. People in my circle have moved beyond that. We still laugh and joke, we just don't do it at others' expense. Our own expense perhaps, but not those who are not there to defend themselves.
Of course it's entirely your choice as to whether to dress in public or not, but I just want to say that people like those men would not say anything to a TG's face if they encountered one. They would keep their opinions to themselves, even if they related the encounter to their friends afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy1
I don't know if this makes any difference to you or not.
Edit - I agree though, that you don't have to out yourself to call them out on their prejudicial statements.
You could say, "My cousin is a crossdresser. He is very macho as a guy, but its amazing! When he wears a dress and gets all done up--nine out of ten guys don't spot him at all!"
There have been several good points raised in this thread. Personally I think the correct response is what feels right at the time considering the audience. I have both commented with words like "each to their own", and also remained quiet to this and similar topics......BTW, feels nice to be back here.....Madilyn
Hi Suzy, I am going to be one that totally agrees with you. The only time I went out away from the my house was on a dress and drive about a year and a half ago. My wonderful wife went with me and I was scared to death the whole time. I live in the deep south along the Gulf of Mexico and crossdressers are not tolerated well at all here. Going out in public dressed may be placing your life in danger so I like you am perfectly fine with my closet and home. I can dress anytime I want there is no one here but me and my wife who is just fine with Jeannie. I would dearly love to go SC conference but Atlanta is just to close to home and I have run into people I know almost every time I go somewhere (in drab). I don't take humiliation well at all and once word spreads, and it usually does and I don't care anyone says, the humiliation will not stop. Sometimes it is not as easy as some people think it is and in "my opinion" for people to tell you that it's ok just go do it do not fully understand the the total situation. I am doing this the way I want to do it and my suggestion (although not called for) is to do they way you want to do it. Hugs from Jeannie!!!
Hi Suzy!
I think the next time your up for being a race Marshal, you should where that sexy outfit you wore for the Vicar. :-). I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one!
Bobbi
Suzy do what you feel is best I will respect that.
Personally I would put those guys lower on my friends list after this.
I'm not one to stand by and watch when people are being degraded for who they are and always speak up but thats just me.
About ten days ago I got involved in a similar conversation. The people talking sure were biased toward CD/TS people. I would never bring up my being one with anyone in that group. They were all totally against ladies like us. That's why I appreciate each and everyone of you on this site.
I must have too agree with you Suzy,
Suzy, I'm sure I would have done the same thing, at least you can come here and get some comfort in knowing your not alone. Hugs Jaymee