Helping the "cause"

Some CDers here and on other sites indicate they feel that a good job must be done on our feminine appearance, especially when going out in public to help the "cause" of CDing. Slipshod feminine dressing, they say. works against the "cause" and makes others shun us and/or berate us. They often cite that doing a good job of dressing helps us to "pass" or "blend" and look like women. But, in reality does "passing" or "blending" really help any "cause" especially if others think we are women? I thought the idea is "Hey I'm a man but I like to dress as a woman, I have rights." I've never seen any formal declaration of anyone striving for CD rights, nor have I ever seen any "CD Suffragettes" put in jail for picketing, sit ins or marches. Personally I feel the best way to help any such "cause" is to not make a big deal about it and just be ourselves. That would tend to win others over one person at a time the way I see it. :)

I don't worry about a "cause" but I do think that when John or Jane Q. Public sees an obvious male prancing around in public in the all too common hooker's outfit it puts a bad taste in their mouth. In that sense it's "hurting the cause" because it makes it more difficult for those of us who would like to just slide by under the radar. It becomes the mental image they see when they hear the term "crossdresser".

In any 'cause', there are going to be some on the front lines, and others who lend support as best we can from a distance. I do my best to preach toleration for all, whenever I see or hear someone making fun of others the way so many make fun of us. However, I won't out myself just to further the cause. I feel that I've had enough misery in my life and simply don't need another bit of spending a lot of time arguing with morons over a case for crossdressing rights. There are some who will never accept us, and no amount of arguing will help. Things are changing; the current teenagers are way more tolerant of gender variations, and hopefully that will continue to expand. But it won't happen soon enough; those of my generation won't live long enough for that. So in the meantime, many of us simply take the path of least resistance: We just stay out of the way, and often, out of sight.

Hi,

Lets look at another side , ... The look... seems to be much of what this is about yet you dont find many women hiding them selfs in public with makeup hair and adornment,s or disguising them selfs most you see their face and more so those with short hair , and when you you talk with them its natural not forced , just their normal voice ,

and are they accepted in the normal world of detail commitees work and clubs sports and so on , most are just accepted for who they are no hiding no cover up and no trying to be other than they are for most any way .

So would those dressers walk down the road in a dress or skirt and lets say no makeup no added hair or wigs show your face and to those you work with and know in other words no hiding behind a false mask just talk normaly and be who you are no disguise,

Ill concede a little makeup lippy some adornments and look nice at the very least, and perfume now is that acceptable and come join a group or two be involved with your communitys around where you live be on a commitee or two,

Did the men in the 1400 -1700 dress like women skirts dress,s makeup heavy perfume adornment heeled shoes and the whole of it yet how many were trying to be like women with breasts and hiding what ever again very few if at all

so how does that sound, best get my flack jacket quick smart..... maybe i know that answer ....nope....

yes in society... you... have rights yet for men or many men they wont more.

You brought up about CD suffragettes funny that not seen any put in jail for picketing sit ins marches ,or other,

Yet when.... we.... females did picketing marches and stood up for women to have a say and not be slaves and owned by men and propiety rights and voting , we were abused thrown in jail beaten starved and thrown out on the streets and thats okay , well 1860 -1920.s ,

Yet who lies to their wifes girlfriends and new relationships starting up all in the name of dressing and thats okay as well ,

And then the demanding of your right to dress when and where ever .

I wonder why so many wifes dont like or put up with it was that in the signed contract... you... signed the day... you... married,,, your,,, spouse .

You wont acceptance then come clean and dont hide tell your family and friends and you know as well as i you most likely will have a big lose ,

The right to dress earn it dont demand it be open and no hiding then maybe just maybe you may be accepted, because you are man enough to admit you are a little different from other men .

...noeleena...

Kate,
Media stereotypes could be behind some of those feelings ! The public get the impression that a Cder wants to look like a cross between a hooker and a pantomime dame ! They probably didn't think that they may have just walked passed a CDer and not realised it ! The problem is we are far too over sensitive, everything must be perfect to blend without causing ridicule or embarrassment and in doing so we go OTT ! We have to accept we step outside the normal box !

Where I live CD's are pretty well received so its not a problem.
90% of them are "blenders". Most people don't pay that much attention so If they see womens clothes,hair,make up they assume its a woman.

I definitely think that wherever a type of persons are discriminated, there must be union to fight in some way. Then there you have a cause! The thing here is that going in public and expect for acceptance from others means that you're putting yourself as highest priority. You need to love yourself as a whole to be capable of loving others, and I'm talking about your family, friends, work mates and the rest...
hugs!
Gabriela

I think wearing bedroom clothes in public is not appropriate regardless of the gender of the wearer. I also think that when I am in public I only need the worry about making myself happy with my clothing choices - i do not wear a wig, but I do like wearing minimal makeup and jewelry. Not sure if being concerned about the cause has anything to do with how I present.

Of course each of us who goes out in public is deemed as representing other CDrs and the broader transgendered population. As such, we do have an obligation to present ourselves to the best of our ability., and appropriate to the situation. Those rare individuals who can consistently pass are not detracting in any way from the impression...in fact just the opposite. Those who pass or blend make it easier for those who follow by illustrating how blurred the gender lines can be.

Sometimes Miss, You kind of said it all for me, too. I was bullied by older twin brothers, also by boys at school many years, still bullied by evil older brothers, mean sister, and was picked on at work, wet the bed until 20. I have had enough ridicule and emotional torture, and am hesitant to go out in public much, and receive MORE. Times i have been out, i got laughed at, pointed at, parent told kids to not look. I still take a very rare trip out the door, and I agree with Kate, one person at a time, but i , in my gut feeling, realize, that the vast majority of people think crossdressing is unnatural, and strange, and a small minority will actually accept it, though more may tolerate it.

I don't think that there is a cause per se, but there are definitely issues. I think the main issues are three:

1. Crossdressing should be legal everywhere. This is no longer an issue in the USA, but it is still an issue in many parts of the world.

2. Crossdressers should be allowed to use the restroom that corresponds to their presentation gender. A less ideal alternative would be unisex toilets, but only if they were commonplace.

3. The public needs to be educated about us. The public needs to see us as ordinary people. We want the same things that everybody wants: a safe environment for ourselves and our children, respect for our lifestyle choices, a good job that provides financial security for our families, the chance to excel at our chosen profession, and a better life for our children.

I can understand why some of us are turned off by the idea of a 60 year old man parading around in hot pants and fishnet stockings, because it perpetuates a cliche that is untrue for most of us, and it is visible. The much more common CD who passes, or at least blends, is not.

Washington State has many law protecting all transgenders: gays, lesbians, transgenders, cross dressers. We are protected under the hate crime laws. We are protected in housing, employment, public accommodations, etc. If one just wants to wear women's clothing because of the style, feel of the cloth, array of colors, etc and wear a beard and have hairy arms and chest, go for it. I think the majority of us do not know why we do what we do. There is something that is working in our brains that say we want to appear as a woman. There is some inner conflict that says in order to feel at ease with ourselves we must appear as a woman. I lost any acceptance from my wife when she said she could not understand why I bought a bra when I have nothing to "stuff in it!" She could not figure that out! I cannot either other than it is a part of me trying to emulate someone I really know I physically am not!

Since Washington State passed the laws and my mid size city further enhanced the law I have yet to read about a cross dresser asserting their right to dress at work. Cross dressers seem to dress as a hobbyist. And, yes, there are news reports of conflicts arising with men and women transitioning. But, I do not consider them to be cross dressers.

While "passing" is not essential for the cause.
A bearded, or NON-Passing lady will cause a public reaction (even a non-verbal reaction) when using the ladies room, or the mens room, or the changing rooms.
Also there has been big public backlash and Media Hype when 30 or so, in see through nighties were working the streets of a local shopping area at night.

So for me - helping the cause means showing the public that there are some of us, who are just "regular girls" wanting a normal "girls life", and that we are not all night workers in see through nighties, trying to make money from their dads and husbands

If we do a good enough job, there's no issue as we won't be recognized. :)

For most of us, we are detectable only under close examination. Most people do not examine us closely enough to see anything but a woman.

Someone who sees me closely may detect something out of the ordinary. When fully dressed I could be a CDer, or I might just be a tall 50something woman who inherited some unfortunate genes. Politeness demands that those I interact with acknowledge me as I present and I conform to societal norms to make this easier for them.

Most CDers, while not adhering to society's norm concerning presenting as their birth gender, do adhere closely to society's norm for the gender binary while dressed. For whatever reason, we want to be acknowledged as female and we won't do anything that might preclude that.

Now, I'm not so careful when in male mode. I won't wear a skirt, but I will wear clothes and colors that are androgynous. Being misgendered in male mode doesn't bother me at all. My feeling is that I am not perceived as a CDer in this mode, simply a male with somewhat effeminate tastes.

The one bugaboo seems to be the matter of hair, both facial and body. Even GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair. My electrologist makes the bulk of her income from this. Facial hair is probably the strongest gender cue, to the point where a "bearded lady" is a stereotypical circus freak. The combination of an undeniably male cue like a beard and undeniable female cue like a skirt and hose seems to be culturally jarring both to ordinary members of society and to many of us. Unfortunately, this is the only kind of CDer that many members of society have ever perceived, since the ones who blend go unnoticed.

This leads to a considerable problem. I desire so much to be accepted as a woman when dressed that there is no way that I would want to acknowledge that I am TG. If I am doing a good job in this I'm obviously not a good ambassador for the TG community.

I don't really have a solution to this, as being "Loud and Proud" about being TG is not compatible with presenting as a normal female.

Presentation matters because you have to get through the presentation to see to substance. When someone is offended by something rightly or wrongly pushing their offense to extreme's will only make the skeptics react more strongly and be even less amenable to tolerance or reason. It's not just the case with crossdresser's. Anyone who is obviously a member of a stigmatized group that presents themselves poorly does a disservice to those who wish to promote a less off-putting view of that group.

Most here may wish that no one would be ridiculed for their clothing choices. But a morbidly obese unshaven man in a mini-dress and 6" heels strutting around the mall will not make people that are already skeptical of crossdressers inclined to move past their preconceptions and look for the substance.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

If we do a good enough job, there's no issue as we won't be recognized. :)

For most of us, we are detectable only under close examination. Most people do not examine us closely enough to see anything but a woman.

Someone who sees me closely may detect something out of the ordinary. When fully dressed I could be a CDer, or I might just be a tall 50something woman who inherited some unfortunate genes. Politeness demands that those I interact with acknowledge me as I present and I conform to societal norms to make this easier for them.



This leads to a considerable problem. I desire so much to be accepted as a woman when dressed that there is no way that I would want to acknowledge that I am TG.

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I don't see it that way in my 10 years of being out in the mainstream..You "pass" to some,and others you don't. That is the way it is. So,because you look so presentable in appearance and manners,ALL accept you and the people[mostly observant women] are impressed by you which goes to further the "T cause". So it does not matter if you think you pass cause mostly people are very polite and accepting to those that try and are comfortable and confident in their own skin.

I do my best to present female but know that I don't pass. I usually dress neatly but not age appropriately so I don't blend and therefore attract a degree of interest. If passing or blending is the goal then some would say that I'm a poor role model for the 'cause'.

What I am though is genuinely friendly, caring and thoughtful about those that I meet. I am very fortunate in femme presentation to have a number of really good friends. Sometimes we get too hung up on presentation when what really matters is how we treat people and the positive vibes we give. That is what helps the 'cause'.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Even GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair. My electrologist makes the bulk of her income from this. Facial hair is probably the strongest gender cue, to the point where a "bearded lady" is a stereotypical circus freak.

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That's it! I'll get to the thread topic in a moment, but this is the answer to the CDers who often say in this forum that it's not fair that women can be masculine, but men can't be feminine without being judged. Women ARE judged just as severely when they show cues that are commonly associated with males and facial hair is an excellent example of this. I just finished looking at cosmetic procedure statistics in another thread and there are indeed many women who get their facial hair removed.

OK … back to the topic at hand. There do seem to be two major camps here, those who know they don't pass so they are satisfied with presenting the best they can as males presenting as females (what else can they do?), and those who wish to and feel they pass as women.

It's debatable whether people in the mainstream do read the members of the second camp. I tend to think that most do when they take the time to look closely and especially if there is personal interaction. The reason I say this is that TSs who have been on hormones for years go ahead with FFS. If they weren't read (and these are people who live full time, have had electrolysis, have their own hair and nails, and of course are on HRT), I dare say that FFS would not be necessary.

Age comes into play here as well. I think it is easier for both a young person and an older person to pass, but less so for someone in between (generally), unless they've won the TG genetic lottery. Obviously younger males haven't had their features fully altered yet by the continuing effect of testosterone that comes with age, but older males tend to be subconsciously compared to older females who have lost estrogen (people do sort and classify others according to age brackets among other things) so the playing field is more level; there is less contrast between a 60s-ish+ male and female than there is when they are both in their 30s or 40s (generally).

So the question - does it really matter if a TG is obviously or less obviously male? I think to the general public it doesn't matter. Most will lump everyone in the same boat, simply because their knowledge of gender diversity is so limited. But, the way they look at it will vary. Some will be judgmental, some will be mildly accepting although they will have the NIMBY attitude, a few will champion the TG for having the courage to be herself, and some will shrug their shoulders and move on. But it is true that the vast majority will keep their opinions to themselves at least in the presence of the TG (I'm reminded of Isha's mall experiment), except of course the people who have something positive to say.

This was difficult for my SO to come to terms with. She did realize eventually that the people she interacted with directly knew that she was not a GG and for many years before this, she would not have gone out without the certainty that she was not being read. But, knowing this now does not deter her from self-expression.

The cause to me is that individuals should be able to wear whatever they want to. If one wants to dress in a way that shocks the general public they still aren't hurting anyone. I see people dressed (not CDs so much) outlandishly quite often which sometimes I find disrespectful, but it's their right. I'm for individual freedom, not group think.

I have to disagree with the notion that dressing exclusively for oneself, even in a deliberately shocking manner, is solely a matter of personal freedom. I can imagine a lot of different get ups that one might find personally fulfilling which would violate any reasonable standard of decency...stuff I wouldn't want my kids to see at the mall. And to narrow a bit to the topic, one outlandish CD presentation may reinforce stereotypes that hold back all of us who go out in public.

I don't wish to intrude upon, or interject myself into the lives of strangers, by virtue of how I'm dressed. I wish to leave them to their lives and live my own. That's not group think, but rather common courtesy.

Kate - I'm assuming your use of "bunny ears quotations" around "cause" indicates an acknowledgement that the "cause" is ill-defined at best, or just fragmented at worst... :) With the exception of our full-time TS members, we represent such a diverse group that I think we struggle to understand the motivations of many segments and therefore what "cause" there could be to have us all support..? Or perhaps you're indicating you think the "cause" of "passing" CDers is a little demeaning to others who would struggle more with blending...? In which case, I would probably agree with you... :straightface:

There are some of us who - as others have said - are gifted with being more blendable than many... blessed they may be, but the need and drive to present femme for those who are not so fortuitously endowed is no less... To adapt your example (Kate), it would have been like the GG suffragettes of Edwardian times having some sort of arbitrary bar against GGs who weren't fashionable (or some other subjective criteria...). We have quite a few members here who choose to present androgynous, some who present 'mixed' (NDDs - 'neck-down-dressers'), and many who are probably somewhere in between, but from a support forum perspective, I don't believe we are justified in questioning their motivation or suggesting that they are not part of this community. This is no different to the vanilla world where most folk dress to conform, some dress 'well' and others not so, and some dress deliberately to be non-conforming and in some cases - yes - to be provocative or shocking.

I think too much is read into our behaviour and not as much into the haters in society. Most people will generally be accepting of anyone regardless of the nature of their dress, as long as it doesn't impact them detrimentally.

The haters and bigots will find a reason to ridicule, abuse or hate however well or unconventionally we're dressed - I don't believe that 'convincing' CDers dressing their best will do much to sway these people from their unaccepting stance. Sadly... :(

Katey x

I wear what are considered women's clothes. I am obviously male, since i have a full beard, and I still have a construction worker's body and am not overweight, and I wear the same as what women would be wearing in the environments I go to, and I have been driving to Rainbow Gatherings all over the US dressed like this and getting out and eating in restaurants and checking into motels and campgrounds in small towns, and mostly I get no reactions, and of the ones I do get, there are more positive ones than negative. What can I say? I can do it, and you all can too.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Women ARE judged just as severely when they show cues that are commonly associated with males and facial hair is an excellent example of this...

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They are judged, but I disagree on the "as severely" part. A woman showing masculine cues is considered "edgy", as evidenced by the various "man-tailored" fashions that crop up periodically. You seldom see "woman-tailored" looks for men. Levi's tried marketing close-fitting "ex-girlfriend jeans" but they were unsuccessful. Here's a clip of the Ellen Degeneris show where she not only ridicules a man wearing the jeans ("take those off so you can have more kids"), but afterwards takes stabs at males wearing panties and dresses. Ms. Degeneris should know better, but being a accepted "masculine L" does not seem to give her very much empathy for those who are "feminine Ts."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ktXa8fvB8

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Originally Posted by ReineD

OK … back to the topic at hand. There do seem to be two major camps here, those who know they don't pass so they are satisfied with presenting the best they can as males presenting as females (what else can they do?), and those who wish to and feel they pass as women....

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There's a third camp (though the camps don't have distinct boundaries). There are those who wish to dress in feminine fashion but who don't present as female, stereotyped as the "bearded guy in a dress." Philosophically, I feel empathy for them and think that if they were accepted it would be better for everyone. Despite this, I still get a sense that, by so drastically flaunting societal norms, they are not really helping overall acceptance because they are too far from the norm to be accepted and, by association, it causes the rest of us to be misunderstood.

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I can imagine a lot of different get ups that one might find personally fulfilling which would violate any reasonable standard of decency...stuff I wouldn't want my kids to see at the mall.

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Just avoid Walmart when shopping with your children. Kids are exposed to so much now days aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Eryn

... a clip of the Ellen Degeneris show where she not only ridicules a man wearing the jeans ("take those off so you can have more kids"), but afterwards takes stabs at males wearing panties and dresses. Ms. Degeneris should know better, but being a accepted "masculine L" does not seem to give her very much empathy for those who are "feminine Ts."

...

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Eryn, I totally disagree. Ellen is a comedian. Her job is to make the show funny but she does not take a stab at cross dressers at all. She is drawing the ridiculous line from "ex-girlfriend jeans" to mother-in-law panties, ex-wife, mistress, clothing. The premise is base don what Levi's launched. All of it was meant in jest and was intended to be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Ressie

Just avoid Walmart when shopping with your children. Kids are exposed to so much now days aren't they?

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For the record, I avoid Walmart with or without kids. I don't mean to be argumentative. I do feel that 'the wear what you want' attitude can and often does reinforce the worst stereotypes about CDrs. Obviously you don't agree, but can it least be conceded that some attire is simply not suitable for public settings...or does freedom always demand and justify such attire?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...There do seem to be two major camps here, those who know they don't pass so they are satisfied with presenting the best they can as males presenting as females (what else can they do?), and those who wish to and feel they pass as women.

....

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First Reine, I agree with your entire post. THAT should be a sticky. Might help some get a little bit centered.

But to the point above, I think there is a third major camp: a middle ground of sorts. I don't think I fit either of the camps above. I DO wish I could pass. That ability would make both me and the normals feel at ease. But I know I don't pass. I do my best, but I accept it will never do. I can only hope for passing the glance test at most. So am I satisfied that I do not pass? Not really, but I'm pragmatic, certainly not delusional. So on your camp spectrum above, I think I'm in between.

Maybe I should work on being delusional? I've been hearing good things....

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Originally Posted by Eryn

They are judged, but I disagree on the "as severely" part.

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You yourself said that GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair and you described a woman with facial hair akin to a circus freak show? Unless I misunderstood? I know a woman who had a lot of dark facial hair above her lip. She was mortified about this and shaved frequently, until she got enough money for electrolysis. She did not like being stared at.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

There's a third camp (though the camps don't have distinct boundaries). There are those who wish to dress in feminine fashion but who don't present as female

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To Eryn and also Jennifer, yes, of course. I simplified for my point, limiting it to the people who do present as women.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Despite this, I still get a sense that, by so drastically flaunting societal norms, they are not really helping overall acceptance because they are too far from the norm to be accepted and, by association, it causes the rest of us to be misunderstood.

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You are addressing only a partial segment of the members in this forum, the members who want to be taken as GGs with no hint of cross-gender expression. But a lot of our members who do present as females in public do not identify as women (even though they may identify as gender fluid), they know they are men (or gender fluid), in fact they know there is no way they could sustain passing as women up close and further their desire to present as stealth women is not strong enough to undergo HRT and major body modifications. And they also do not want to be seen as fetish CDers, effeminate men, or genderqueer (bearded guys in a dress).

Frankly, I don't think that people who are not exposed to this community understand all the subtle differences between everyone. To them, I'm afraid that a man who chooses to present in a feminine manner (any feminine manner), if he is read as a man, is just odd and when you think about it, it is statistically odd. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that people are more understanding of and comfortable with what is familiar. The exception to this might be someone like Conchita Wurst (see below), and also transsexuals who come out in a publicly favorable manner, for example the high school teacher in the Northwest several years ago who transitioned and received support from her school administration, the students, and all those who commented favorably on the online news article. But, this person was not CDing, she was living full time as her target gender and was quite candid about her transition struggles, struggles that she experienced in her own community despite having some people support her.

Back to Conchita Wurst, she has garnered tremendous support in the media, enough to obtain a contract for the endorsement of Zeke headphones. Her (his?) presentation flies in the face of gender conformity, and for this reason a lot of people are championing the breaking down of gender barriers. This makes sense symbolically, just as it makes sense that androgynous wear has become so popular among the young. The gender gap between men and women in terms of education, career and the chores they take on in the home as they both raise their kids are narrowing immensely so the deconstruction of traditional gender appearance that symbolizes the breakdown of traditional gender roles is bound to be popular.

Still, it would be interesting to take a survey of the age brackets of the people who think that Conchita is supercool. I wonder if the balance might be tipped towards those in their 30s or younger, people who are more apt to deconstruct the value systems of the prior generation, although I dare say that part of Conchita's appeal might be that she is a public figure and not their brother, father, girlfriend, or boyfriend. People do tend to put things in boxes.

But to your point the TS community says, and rightfully so, that Conchita does not represent who they are since they obviously see no part of themselves as being male.

There are just so many variables when it comes to garnering general acceptance for gender diversity and it begins by recognizing that it is indeed diverse, and done for different reasons, and that people's understanding of it is still very limited.

Hmm, perhaps there wouldn’t even be a so called “cause” if every cross dresser passed as a female whenever (s)he went out. However, all culture is made up of unique individuals, and the individual essentially chooses to stand out, or blend in to whatever social arrangement they’re a part of at any particular time. This holds true in most Western civilizations, but it’s not a hard fast rule by any measure. Obviously one can walk down Hollywood Boulevard half dressed in either gender more comfortably than other parts of the country. In reality it seems to me that the “cause” is location specific so it comes down to your degree of comfort.

We have the right of self-expression, but a little common sense goes a long way. Its human nature to judge, and we all are (and we all do judge others to some degree). In the early 80’s my Mohawk, spiked collar, and combat boots weren’t very well received outside of my regular circles. So dependent upon a person’s personality definitely determines if he/she can take ridicule knowing they might receive a bit of slack for their appearance.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Age comes into play here as well. I think it is easier for both a young person and an older person to pass, but less so for someone in between (generally), unless they've won the TG genetic lottery. Obviously younger males haven't had their features fully altered yet by the continuing effect of testosterone that comes with age, but older males tend to be subconsciously compared to older females who have lost estrogen (people do sort and classify others according to age brackets among other things) so the playing field is more level; there is less contrast between a 60s-ish+ male and female than there is when they are both in their 30s or 40s (generally).

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I wish to feel pretty and I do when dressed in woman’s clothing. But in lieu of Cinderella’s Magic Wand I can’t magically appear beautiful to the public’s eye. I’ll do my best to dress appropriate to my age and pass as a woman when I go out simply because I personally don’t like attention. My femme needs have an emotional aspect, which I protect. That being said, I encourage everyone to do whatever makes them feel good as long as they’re not doing it at the expense of others.

There really isn’t a way to gage whether or not the cause is strengthened or weakened by a bearded man in a dress. Only time will tell, but logistics do matter.

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Originally Posted by Butterfly Bill

I wear what are considered women's clothes. I am obviously male, since i have a full beard, and I still have a construction worker's body and am not overweight, and I wear the same as what women would be wearing in the environments I go to, and I have been driving to Rainbow Gatherings all over the US dressed like this and getting out and eating in restaurants and checking into motels and campgrounds in small towns, and mostly I get no reactions, and of the ones I do get, there are more positive ones than negative. What can I say? I can do it, and you all can too.

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I gotta go with The Butterfly on this one. It seems to me that the "cause" should be able to dress however you want, while keeping public standards and common decency in mind.....There's another term for those that Rachel mentioned downthread; "Also there has been big public backlash and Media Hype when 30 or so, in see through nighties were working the streets of a local shopping area at night."...But that term should not be used in polite company...

I have gone out, in my conservative neck of the woods, in a variety of mix and match modes, depending on the time and place and my mood. and if I've ever had any negative reaction, which I'm sure I have, I was not aware of it, because it was done behind my back and out of earshot.

Today, for example, I threw on a pair of leggings, my one pair of kind of cute low healed boots, a mid-thigh sweater, a touch of make-up(with fake glasses to hide my laziness) and some dangly costume earrings. Instead of a wig, I threw on a stylish cap and let what's left of my long hair flow, but rest assured, I didn't fool anybody!!! I went to the UPS store to drop off 8 packages. I went to the Tractor store to buy 50 pounds of dog food. I went to the nail salon to have my eyebrows waxed and a manicure with pale blue polish. I went to a thrift store, hoping to find a winter jacket, but ended up browsing through the book section and bought three books of various styles. i went to Home Depot and bought a couple of things to fix a bathroom faucet.

I then went to a super market to stock up on New Years supplies, and because I'd been having such pleasant exchanges everywhere I'd been, I made one last stop at a convenience store, where, as one 20-something female clerk was ringing up my purchases, the 2nd 20-something female clerk, who had just finished ringing up a customer came over and started raving about how cute my boots were. She made me swing my leg up onto the counter to show them to her co-worker(not an easy move at my age). She then swung her own booted foot up so that we could all see how much cuter my boots were than hers. I explained that it wasn't easy to find something cute in my size, let alone to be able to pull it off at my age. she asked where I'd gotten them and was thrilled to find out that the store was just around the corner and that she had a friend who worked there. She shot her fists up into the air and yelled "Score!" I then complimented her skirt, which was obviously designed so that a "plus-size" could wear it, and found out where she'd gotten it, and have my next shopping excursion already planned.

So I figure I did my part today to help however "The Cause" is defined, and can now take the rest of the year off....All 30-some hours of it...

The Butterfly, on the other hand, does his part 24/7, and for that, I, personally thank him!!

Wear what you want.
Wear it like you mean it.
Don't get all het-up if we "mean" different things to the best of our abilities.

The freedom "to do and to be" should be the cause of not just CDers, but of humanity as a whole....Whoops, got dangerously close to a soapbox there:-)

Stepping down now...

Jaye

you don't always HAVE to be a "bearded dude in a dress" ! ... one could be a dude in a dress sans beard!

still with the hairy legs and the like and no makeup no breastfroms or wiggy!

etc!


it takes all kinds!


also what about EXTREMELY femme gay men? ... they can dress super flamboyant / act totally camp and over the top (calling their gay male friends GIRLS and the like) ... just for fun!

but that's ok to most because "oh that's fine ... they're gay!" ... but do that and be straight and it's wrong? ... talk about stereotypes!


be whoever you want (within reason) but don't do it in a way that I don't understand / agree with!

(bah!)

Hi Kate,

Interesting premise . . . Now to be honest, I doubt very few of us TG/CD truly pass. Yes even those who seem to have won the TG lottery, as we all have little cues that give us away as guys on close examination. You may skirt (no pun intended) the line of battle but you will never survive first contact in my experience. Regarding CD rights well, I like to think of them as TG rights which are applicable to all within the spectrum regardless of how you choose to present. Now when it comes to rights, it would seem hypocritical of us (the TG/CD community writ large) to say "Hey I want the right to wear women's clothing, make-up, heels and whatnot" then turn around and wag our collective finger at people who don't fit that mould and say "Hey, you can't dress like that because it makes us look bad" . . . just saying that we would be guilty of hypocrisy by denying the same right to whole CD spectrum.

Will dressing one way over another hurt the TG cause? Not likely. It is more likely that the it will only affect the person dressed at that time and space. The sad truth is that people already have a preconceived notion about us (TG/CD) and regardless of how we are dressed, that belief will always be in the forefront of their mind and dressing appropriately, passing, blending or somehow not assaulting the sensibilities of haters, will change nothing. It would not matter if the CDer looked like a Vogue model, haters are not suddenly going to thing "Hey, now that I see a pretty cross dresser, I think all cross dressers are great." .

Hugs

Isha

Not buying not the idea that it's hypocritical to not support any CDrs right to dress any way that they want. It would be hypocritical if I applied a different standard to CDrs than GGs or anyone else. What we choose to wear at home reflects on no one...what we choose to wear in public does matter in how we are perceived, just as with anyone else.

Hi Kim,

I see this as a societal woe not just directed at CDers but people in general. Society determines what is appropriate and when someone steps out of the society constraint well then they get type casted until people learn to accept it. The hippie culture is a good example of how it flew in the face of societal conservatism and was vilified (drug users, promiscuous, the end of all decency) until it became mainstream and accepted. I personally dress to blend but if someone wants to dress in a micro mini skirt, stilettos and fish nets . . . that is their business and we don't have the right to be the moral conscience of the CD world . . . each of us have to find our own way.

Hugs

Isha

Yeah I still don't get this mentality

if applied to GGs ... "wow! that woman is dressed like a prostitute! ALL WOMEN ARE ****S!"

uh...??? anyone who thinks that way is already an idiot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

.... What we choose to wear at home reflects on no one...what we choose to wear in public does matter in how we are perceived, just as with anyone else.

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""You wouldn't worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do." - Eleanor Roosevelt

My sincere apologies Kim, with the quote...I'm feeling more silly than confrontational...And since I first read Ms. Eleanor's quote in one of your signature lines, I've done a lot of research on her, and she was one incredible human being!!!...So I want to thank you for enlightening me about her!

No harm intended...

Jaye

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You yourself said that GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair and you described a woman with facial hair akin to a circus freak show? Unless I misunderstood?

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You did.

In the case of GGs with facial hair,"strong societal pressure" is not what it is for males who present female. People might talk behind Aunt Sophie's back about her faint post-menopausal mustache but she isn't going to be beat up, ostracized, or suspected of being a danger to children because she has it.

I did not describe a woman with normal feminine facial hair as a circus freak. A woman with far more than that amount, or a man with a normal beard would fall into that category. However, some women are quite sensitive about any facial hair at all and in their own mirrors they might see more hair than the world does. For them, societal pressure is within their minds and that is what puts food on my electrologist's table.

(Her TG clients put the Porsche in her garage! :))

I prefer to see it as less of a cause, more as leading by example. I live in northern Scotland, and was inspired to go out as a man in a skirt (with varying degrees of additional female clothes) by a man shopping with his wife and children in a supermarket in a small Highland town, while wearing a skirt. While people noticed him, they did not react. So, I followed his example in my own way.

People notice and criticise ANYONE who does not conform to their own standards. I move in circles that are usually regarded as open-minded and liberal - for example gay people are not regarded at all negatively, yet women in these circles will talk negatively about (not to) women who wear a lot of make up or like designer clothes instead of High Street, irrespective of how nice or accomplished these ladies are. The sort of morons (now I am being judgmental) who lurk on street corners all day shouting witless comments at passing strangers will fasten on ANYTHING and ANYONE.

Even those of us here who try at times to maximise our elegance and presentation when we go out and go to considerable trouble to look good cannot begin to imagine the pressure put on women to conform to glossy magazine ideals of what a woman should look like.

The reality is that the street lurkers will shout abuse at the fat, disabled, doddery or anyone who is 'fashion forward'. If a GG woman who could be in the pictures in the magazines walks past, these geniuses will shout other unpleasant things, and a woman who looks really good can have a very unpleasant time in the street. One of the problem areas I know of is a pub near my dressmaker, where I have had no problems with the smokers at the door, but my dressmaker, a lovely lady, has had all sorts of abuse from them. If you avoid such people and wear clothes that are not too revealing, then almost everyone will leave you in peace. They might be thinking things, but in the UK, at least, almost everyone goes out of their way NOT to react, for the simple reason they do not want to appear rude. If you do get stared at, it might actually be a stare of admiration - I know that when I see a cross-dresser I WANT to look and take in the scene in a positive way, but I know I can't, because that would make them feel uncomfortable.

If you go out, keep to the good areas and be (and look) confident - that is the best thing of all. If people notice you they are more likely to think "Good for you" than anything negative. I have found this at all levels of dressing from man in skirt to fully cross-dressed. If this works in the Presbyterian north of Scotland it should work in most places - but the American Bible belt may well be an exception. Most people are polite, and the others will be negative about almost anything - do not let this minority intimidate you no matter what the louts say.

Lastly, regarding this as a cause is a bit like being a missionary. You are putting pressure on others to think as you think. If you regard yourself as a passive example, it is their choice entirely to come round to your way of thinking, and it is so much more effective.

To be perfectly honest about this, personally my only "cause" regarding this is that I've always wanted to present as a woman and just do the best job I could. It's really a challenge to myself and that is where a lot of the initiative comes from. I wasn't born a woman, so what? I can prove to others that I can look like one if indeed I choose to. As far as picketing , sit-ins and participating in marches for CD "rights" it just isn't going to happen. Some of us have done so under the LGBT umbrella but that's as far as it goes. The nature of the CD "beast" is that our families and jobs can be seriously compromised if we interview(on film) on the 11:00 news and that is the bottom line. We have to determine our priorities.:)

Kate ,you perfectly described the gap between those that accept themselves and as a result wish to be themselves,and those that is really isn't important enough to add power to the TG lineup..It is all well and good until those same people talk about not being accepted ,yet have never put their face behind the cause.TG rights are also CD rights..accept that or not!

Since I don't go out I'm fine with not passing. I mentioned in another thread I do not take pictures as I look my very best in my imagination. Seriously, though, I am genetically blessed as a man. Broad shoulders, thick neck, huge arms and barrel chest. Put that in a sleeveless dress and well . . . .

I accept me for what I am.

I go out quite often to a local bar with my wife, it's a regular local bar not a gay bar, people treat me like anyone else, in fact we attract people, 9o% of the time my choice of dress is not even mentioned, when I am asked, I try to educate them about crossdressers. As you all know I don't wear a wig and do not try to pass.