Google insists CD means gay.

I googled “crossdresser friendly places in Tucson and Phoenix.” Several pages immediately showed up suggesting gay bars, gay friendly places, where to meet gays, and so on. The word gay always in bold. Only one answer mentioned LBGT. Not a single answer mentioned crossdressing.

I am not prejudiced against anyone’s sexual preference. I am just disappointed that crossdressing still seems to instantly translate into a specific sexual orientation. I should think that by now the internet, so full of good information, would have accepted our own way of life. Short of yelling from the rooftops I am not sure what I can do about it.

End of little rant.

Ineke

ive used the search for local venues myself and never really noticed but your correct in your observation, but that being said that is usually where we feel the most comfortable when we do get together from what ive read here....i did see some transgender references in the paid ad section....

While a CD person *CAN* be gay, that isn't the default position.

*Damn* Google

I'm afraid that's the cross we all must bear,(no pun intended) until we as a group can change public opinion it is one person at a time as we encounter the homo-phobic public. That is to say that not all CDers are straight but I believe we are the majority, I may be wrong, but we are all ambassadors when we are out and about.

It's not really google's fault. Most websites that have the keywords "Transgender" "crossdresser" also have "gay" as a keyword. We will always be associated with gay until we have our own exclusive venues. My google search had 'transgender' in the first five hits with the 4th and 5th on the list not containing the word gay at all.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sa=N&hl...ces+in+detroit

You asked for CD friendly places and gay bars are generally CD friendly. It's quite a leap of logic to say that Google therefor equates CD with gay.

How come you don't take it as a compliment?

Don't blame Google for associating gay with crossdresser, all result are based on previous searches (by every one). It seems that the unique search string you used is associated with the word gay, if you would only search for "crossdresser friendly bar" the the word gat doesn't show up (at least on the first page. And if you really don't want the word gay to be used in your search then add "-gay" to your search string.

a computer program is never perfect

Great responses. Searches can produce all kinds of anomalies. Gave my wife two orgasms last night. (bragging). I am definitely not gay.

I Googled: "Crossdressers definition". This is what Google said first: "Cross-dressers may begin wearing clothing associated with the opposite sex as children, using the clothes of a sibling, parent, or friend."

The top 5 definitions did not associate CDing with being gay!

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Originally Posted by LilSissyStevie

You asked for CD friendly places and gay bars are generally CD friendly. It's quite a leap of logic to say that Google therefor equates CD with gay.

How come you don't take it as a compliment?

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ha ha......well said.........but yeah....the majority of your friendly places are going to be gay friendly........you put the T in LGBT ....and thats ok...I put the B in there.... and from the sound of it Stevie puts the G in there..all we need is one more around here to put the L in and we are officially a lgbt forum

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Originally Posted by Ressie

We will always be associated with gay until we have our own exclusive venues.

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I don't think that there will ever be a large number of "T" friendly venues, specifically for "T's". The best would be that these places help the newbies to going out in the real world gain enough confidence to go to regular main stream places such that "T" friendly means "everyone" friendly. The more we go out, the easier it gets for us and for those coming out behind us.

Fair rant... maybe.. :thinking: but I'm not sure totally fair on Google as many (if not all) of those gay bars would be considered 'safe' or 'accepting' venues for CDers.

It continues to surprise me that some of us seem so concerned that if so many of us (a majority, in my estimation...) are bi- or heteroflexible, it badly reflects somehow, on 'normal', straight, crossdressing males..? Isn't that like passengers on a hijacked plane worrying about whether their luggage made it into the hold..? :eek: We surely have more important concerns...

This should be more about gaining some benefits from being part of a larger congregation (ie. All of LGBT) rather than just the 'T' alone...

Think about it like this: Just suppose that research did eventually confirm that the majority of the trans* population are of some other sexual orientation than completely hetero-normal males... Then it would be absolutely right and proper that we were a valid partner with the LGB community and those of us who still consider ourselves hetero will just have to accept that we happen to be a minority in this weird and wonderful condition. I don't see a problem with that - it doesn't change individuals; it only affects the overall statistics... Kind of like, hetero-male hairdressers... There definitively must be some, but they get stereotyped with the majority... :)

I am not ashamed that some of my best GFs here are not straight - and I would be proud to stand shoulder-pad to shoulder-pad with them anywhere I could...! :cheer:

Katey x

I tend to agree - being miscast as gay is not an issue is does not matter what people think my sexual orientation is

HEY, if were attracted to other cross dressers WERE NOT GAY. im personally just accepting IM ATTRACTED TO OTHERS LIKE US ;) i dont put a lable on it anymore nor worrie about what general society may think.. we are good people and thats all people can ask and expect, dignity and respect :)

LGBT
L-loving yourself and chosen one
G-giving yourself
B-being who you are
T-taking time to be thankful for what we have.
not to lessen what this means to anyone, but let's look at the person, not the title.

I think the two tend to be very closely linked, so they would show up on a lot of search results together. I don't find it all that offensive, as a straight CDer.

C'mon, everyone knows that everything Google says is true.

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Originally Posted by Katey888

This should be more about gaining some benefits from being part of a larger congregation (ie. All of LGBT) rather than just the 'T' alone...

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If only! - I have a horrible suspicion that the only people who are really interested in 'T' being part of the LGBT 'congregation' are us 'T' folks!

One of the thing that makes Google so good at searching is that it doesn't require precise definitions of that which you are searching. It can draw from contex. In this case the context is the wider LGBT community. If you don't want to see gay venues all you have to do is exclude them by including the string "-gay" (without the quotes) in your search terms.

While there may be a few LGB people who aren't happy with Ts being part of the community, the vast majority are happy that we support them as they support us. Remember the "Hang together or surely we will all hang separately" thing. I'm amazed that some people seem to be driven to create strife within a group that is supposed to support everyone.

The fact is that most gay venues are trans-friendly and I see no problem with their being included in a Google search. In fact, it would be mighty difficult to find a business that is trans-friendly that isn't tolerant of gays, nor would I want to patronize such a business.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

..... If you don't want to see gay venues all you have to do is exclude them by including the string "-gay" (without the quotes) in your search terms.

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Eryn - I didn't know about -gay, tried it with the same search request and you are absolutely correct. Thanks for that tip.

Ineke

it is rather weird / annoying as a Straight CDer you'd have to tell your wife or GF or gals you might be interested in the idea of going to hang out at the ol gay bar!

what message does THAT send!

also I've had numerous bad experiences at so-called LGBT-friendly / gay friendly places... where some of the people? not so friendly!

bad vibes!

whether a gay bar on drag night in St. Paul, MN... The Gay 90s in The Mini Apple... and even the frickin CASTRO in SAN FRANCISCO

I mean when yr getting bad looks or comments or vibes in the GAY part of SAN FRAN ... something's wrong!


one gay guy felt it was his catty right to ask me Why the heck I was dressed up like a woman and to make it known he thought that was so ridiculous ... imagine if I had countered with asking him why he was into men and that I found THAT to be weird? ... that just wouldn't happen... but I should have just to one up him!

oh well!

THIS!

I too suspect the only reason the LGB crowd welcomes us under their umbrella, is to add another voting block and statistical numbers to further their agenda. Because often, I do not see the 'T' agenda furthered as often as I see the gay agenda furthered.

when it comes down to it I think most gay people are just as in the dark as the straight or mainstream world when it comes to CDers / the T

some maybe even more-so in terms of not wanting to be associated with THOSE TYPES!


and then you'd get gay drag queens down on us... and even some high and mighty TS gals who think we're weirdoze!

it never ends!

And I have wonderful gay friends who are very supportive and are perfectly comfortable being with me out in the world. I'm not going to paint them all with a brush of intolerance because of some imagined slight by a "gay drag queen."

Ever hear the phrase "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?" Even if certain members of the LGBT community aren't focused on our issues I'm not going to attack them. To do so is to play into the hands of those who hate us and would see us imprisoned for what we do.

or often times... some NOT so imagined slight!

of HAND!

I think it's more along the lines of people overwhelmingly willing to accept others rather than a statement on your sexual preference.

Don't blame Google. They simply use al algorithm to track the sites that are 'relevant' based on the number of clicks and of course the key words that the sites themselves select to associate with their content.

Until there is a CD bar, or TS bar, gay bars is what you are going to get. When any one come out to there wife, one of the first thing the wife ask is are you gay, I watch the Dallas Buyers Club with my wife the other night, he must be gay if he has HIV is what she say to me, and that is what most people think, and that came out strong in the movie and that is what most people thing no matter what there Education is, High school or PHD. I am great full for what ever acceptance we get.

OK kids, stop slamming the LGB community because you don't want to be included in it. There is one way to get out, start you own club. If you don't want the power of the L&Gs then work to get the T as its own designation and then work to get accepted like they did. Sheesh

Fact is you are where you are today riding the coattails of the gay and lesbian community. You would still be considered a mental illness, you would not have any protections (granted you don't have many now) and you would be hanging out to dry on a lot of legal issues. I don't understand why it bothers so many people to be under that umbrella. Remember "We must hang together of we shall certainly hang separately".

You don't want to be included in the L&G community...quit using their facilities. Go to straight clubs and stand up for yourself. Don't post here that when you get dressed you desire a man. Don't EVEN think about calling yourself a "Lesbian in a man's body". Seems you are convenient protesters.

So now that you all complained , who is the first to have a solution?

I wouldn't say we complained Lori. I think we just are acknowledging that there is some intolerance and judgment from that end of things. I've been to gay clubs, and openly sensed and heard resentment for my presence there. I've had drag queens repeatedly diminish me, or judge me. I've been called CIS, or a CIS wannabe before by transgender ladies I know. I'm sure they meant no harm, but knowing I'm further along the spectrum than simply a CD, that sort of thing stings a little. When people you think of as peers or equals say something with disdain that is disparaging or diminishing, it leaves a mark. I've never understood how any group, that seeks understanding and acceptance, can be as judgmental.

Certainly, "We must hang together of we shall certainly hang separately," sounds all nice and motivating, in the end, it should go in both directions. I've no issue with, pardon the expression, "being lumped in" with them. But because of certain treatments, some Transgender, or others along the spectrum do not feel we are equally respected. I do agree, we all accomplish more, if we work together. But often it feels like we are the red-headed step-child (no offense to gingers), or the dirty little secret they wish they could do without.

I wish I had a solution. I wish it were as simple as forming CD only clubs or organizations. That might work for a very small minority of heterosexual only crossdressers or others along the gender spectrum. But I've seen CD only groups or clubs/bars devolve quickly, because of membership within that were gay/bi/lesbian. It's impossible to mutually exclude any group from the LGBT designation, because of the levels of intersection that exist between them all. And when you get down to it, is it even fair to the multitude of people within, that would be affected by such? Hardly a practical move at all. An easier solution would be to remind all "members" of the community that acceptance and tolerance, should start at home. We cannot expect others if we disparage any member within our grouping.

I think that's cool as there's nothing wrong with being gay, and in fact we are under "lgbti" umbrella which in short is often taken as "gay culture"
when I'm going out, I definitely feel safer in gay friendly places rather than regular mainstream clubs for example.

I too quickly realized that men dressed as woman for a multitude of reasons. I truly believe everyone deserves happiness, and none of us should be judged by gender, age, race, religion, sexual preference, etc., etc. In my journey I was seeking to find similar CDs and also found Google’s results to be narrow, thus I began searching by "heterosexual cross dress" and found some alternative results (again, for my specific needs :-)

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Originally Posted by Caden Lane

I wish I had a solution. I wish it were as simple as forming CD only clubs or organizations. That might work for a very small minority of heterosexual only crossdressers

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It does, but the national TriEss organization was considerably damaged by the management's intolerance of gay CDers and of transexuals. The flagship "Alpha" chapter in Los Angeles has devolved to a Yahoo mailing list. Other chapters, like that in Chicago, were "decertified" because they ignored the gay/TS ban and they have continued to be viable without the national organization. The TriEss website shows 17 chapters remaining in a table that originally held 40. It was not a pretty situation.

Back in the '70s there may have been some perceived advantage to distancing hetero CDers from the gay community. Both communities were quite underground and being mistaken for gay would have been a definite negative.

Today there is little stigma to being gay outside of some fringe fundamentalist groups. There is no advantage, and considerably liability, to separating ourselves from our strong allies.

Honestly, I wouldn't put all that much stock in a search engine by the name of "Google". You have to take all of this stuff online with a grain of salt. :)

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Originally Posted by Eryn

While there may be a few LGB people who aren't happy with Ts being part of the community, the vast majority are happy that we support them as they support us. Remember the "Hang together or surely we will all hang separately" thing. I'm amazed that some people seem to be driven to create strife within a group that is supposed to support everyone. .

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As always, well said Eryn. Perhaps the fact that many in the LGBT community are still "developing"...i.e. are still not fully embracing of different aspects of different
Beings, leads to this rather strange phenomenon of trying to "prove the legitimacy of one's place on the 'alternative sexual/gender spectrum".

As far as complaining about "what the internet says"...I will quote a now deceased friend of mine who always said:

"When the rubber hits the road in one's life, the so-called "importance" about what others think about us, is exponentially diminished to the point that one realizes what really matters in the time left given to them by the "Great Creator", or whatever way one may conceptualize the duration of one's gift of life."

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Originally Posted by Mink

when it comes down to it I think most gay people are just as in the dark as the straight or mainstream world when it comes to CDers / the T

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Originally Posted by Caden Lane

I wouldn't say we complained Lori. I think we just are acknowledging that there is some intolerance and judgment from that end of things...

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Right on both fronts.

Roughly a year ago I spent an evening with friends at SRO, a gay bar in San Diego which is decidedly TG friendly from what I can tell. I spent a significant part of that evening sitting at a table with these three gay guys who were just as in the dark about all things T as any Muggle out there. They were genuinely inquisitive and I think they left that night with a newfound understanding and perhaps respect for where we come from, just as I have the utmost respect for their POV and life experiences.

While I don't make it a habit to seek out the gay bar as a "T-friendly space" (mostly because in my world any mainstream destination is by my definition "T-friendly), I have yet to be witness to intolerance of those with gender issues. However, I can totally see how easy that could happen, just as many Muggles have a hard time getting their head around this gender thing of ours.

Most people don't have an idea that there are guys who just like looking like girls, but don't feel like a "woman trapped inside a male body". I think that's why sometimes they find it shocking, if they're not used to socialize with LGBT people. And even so many LGBs ignore that the Ts have many different "breeds" inside it.

Do you girls know if there's a good book that goes deeper in this matter? I'd surely like to read a bit more, from a sociological and psychological point of view :)

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Originally Posted by Eryn

It does, but the national TriEss organization was considerably damaged by the management's intolerance of gay CDers and of transexuals. The flagship "Alpha" chapter in Los Angeles has devolved to a Yahoo mailing list. Other chapters, like that in Chicago, were "decertified" because they ignored the gay/TS ban and they have continued to be viable without the national organization. The TriEss website shows 17 chapters remaining in a table that originally held 40. It was not a pretty situation.

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Eryn - that is a really interesting piece of history (someday, someone will surely put together a history of the T-movement...?) I have heard a lot about TriEss (who rather strangely proclaim themselves an international organisation) but wondered why they have not been more influential - this answers some of it. :)

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Back in the '70s there may have been some perceived advantage to distancing hetero CDers from the gay community. Both communities were quite underground and being mistaken for gay would have been a definite negative.

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And this makes senset to me too. I still see that attitude of 'distance' on these pages, and I think that is because of a latent fear of being tarred with the same brush... And this is the only part where I would differ from your opinion:

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Today there is little stigma to being gay outside of some fringe fundamentalist groups. There is no advantage, and considerably liability, to separating ourselves from our strong allies.

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I agree strongly with your second point, as many already have (even when that famous quote was levelled against us Brits ;)) - and while the first comment may be true for your locale I don't believe it's true in a more widespread sense. I think there is still strong stigma to being gay, particularly from a generation that grew up with the growth of AIDS and its early relationship to the gay, male community. You only have to look as far as Tim Cook as one example of someone who has kept their orientation under the radar for (presumably) good reason. What doesn't make much sense to me, however, is that a male who 'wears dresses' and is hetero, somehow thinks that there is significant stigma difference between himself and a male who 'wears dresses' and is gay, bi- or somewhere else.. :facepalm: That's just daft!

I think it's highly likely hetero crossdressers are a minority in the T world, and to struggle against a tide as TriEss seems to have done, seems both futile and divisive. We have much to gain from just getting over that, I feel...

Katey x

I agree on the subject of Tri ess. Their membership oath, as posted on the Houston chapters site is clearly anti TS, requiring anyone who contemplates transition to drop out of the group. And it prohibits even talking about TS issues and interests...imagine that. Half of their meetings are "boys nights out". Cumulatively, this probably explains why there are only a couple dozen active members in a city of 4 million. I have no interest in joining the group under these terms.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

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You don't want to be included in the L&G community...quit using their facilities. Go to straight clubs and stand up for yourself. Don't post here that when you get dressed you desire a man. Don't EVEN think about calling yourself a "Lesbian in a man's body". Seems you are convenient protesters. -------------------------

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Nice post Lori! But, u left out those, "straight CD's", that r not attracted to men, only attracted to other CD's.

They seem to ignore the fact that when u take off a dresser's clothes, what r u left with? U r either attracted to male parts or you're not. Why is it so hard for some here to admit they're gay or bi?

Personally, I WISH I was bi. As a single CD I'd be having a lot more---er---fun?:o