how do you know if you're male or female (outside of physicality)?

Today i was in a meeting (dressed) with 2 GG's and a GM. Up came the subject of sex, and the GM and GG's both had the experience that females always experience an emotional/relational aspect to all "encounters" if you know what I mean, and males do not have to. Well, so I always have been same as the so-called female experience.

I've been pondering this a while anyway, but I mean, if we've always assumed one thing, does it means its true? How do we "know" we're M/F/TG/TS/... ? If I look at many aspects of my life, it's a more nurturing/fem way than any trad male way I know of. So, how would I know if I were a female in a male body, excluding the "just knowing" insight? Cos I always thought I was/am male, with a well-balanced fem side, that is happier in fem clothing, happier in fem company?!!

It's all confusing to me, and I'm supposed to be a well-sorted person! So, any definitive male or female attributes that are non-physical?

Evolution. Centuries of determining social, racial, gender, and many other stereotypical classes. In many ways the reason we can't define ourselves is for as long as the first person thought to present outside of their gender, they were admonished, therefore we represent ourselves in the journey of who we are not what we are. Equality is just a short chapter in our history as people and is still being written.

first question I would ask, how much does it really matter? I would also add that I believe that the so called traditional male is highly undervalued in terms of emotions and such. As much as I am under the TG umbrella, there is a big part of me that still identifies as male. Males (traditional) if you want to call them that, do have all the emotional connections that women do. TM's do show it differently, and do disguise their emotions more than TW's do. Look hard enough at even the most macho masculine TM, and you will find something somewhere that would find them to be doing or interested in something that would be more along the lines of a TW.

having said that- Most of us dress because we have a far greater amount of femininity that our TM counterparts. We are likely to find more interests that are feminine based. Act in more feminine ways perhaps, mannerisms and such. We are likely to feel as or more comfortable around women. All that does is make us more feminine than most TM's. IF- you feel so much more inclined on the feminine side or perhaps feel a true need to be one of them, I guess at that point you could identify internally as a woman and then consider yourself TS. Otherwise, you are a feminine male that likes to dress in women's clothing, AKA, a crossdresser.

Hi Pamela,

It is a confusing construct . . . this thing we refer to as gender. Sex, is simple as it is based on sexual characteristics (primary and secondary) . . . you are either biologically male or female (or inter-sexed). However, gender confuses because the definition of gender is a social construct that refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non-conformity. So in the case of TG/CD it usually implies dressing and emulating the socially defined version of female or male. I wear women's clothing, alter my mannerisms and voice so I am behaving in a gender non-conforming manner for my biological sex.

The funny thing is, if we remove the cultural constraints of gender (men dress and act one way and women another) what are we left with . . . a person free to express him/herself as they see fit. For me, I don't consider myself magically transformed into a woman when I am dressed, I am just expressing a part of me which happens (according our society) to be gender non-conforming. I am still me, biologically a male . . . it is only the presentation that changes. I don't suddenly want to give up my stereotypical male past-times and take on stereotypical female pastimes . . . I have the same likes, dislikes, aspirations, desires, disappointments regardless of how I am dressed. This is why I don't think in terms of gender (culturally based) but me as a person. Society may see me as gender non-conforming but I see me as a person, plain and simple.

Hugs

Isha

It's hard to make objective observations to such a question, because most of us have only been one genetic sex, and even m to f TS's formative experiences are shaped by having started as male (though this may be arguable by some).

Add in all the prejudices society teaches us and objectivity is next to impossible.

If I credit my femme side with the kind, nurturing, sensitive, emotional aspects of my character, and I credit my spear-chucking, animal slaughtering, hammer wielding, confrontational side to my male- isn't that basic sexism?

If it is in fact a fair assessment of the difference between the sexes, does sexism still exist? Can women be sexist?

FWIW I've known incredibly kind, gentle, nurturing males, and I've known some hard-boiled, confrontational, spear-chucking females.

Who knows. If you figure it out, please tell me. Now get back into the bloody kitchen and fix my motorbike.

You're confusing ME, Pam. U start out talking amount emotionality during sex and then switched mid-stream to our consciousness of feeling like we're males or females?

I believe I'm capable of having feelings during sex with the RITE WOMEN.

And, as for feeling like I'm male or female inside? I believe my answer would the same as most folks. Here or anywhere.

We're aware of how we feel, but have no idea what others feel like. Or, precisely what we SHOULD feel like as male, female, or somewhere in between.

I guess it's just how you feel personally. It's not up to anyone else after all. I do consider myself to be male but with a strong fem side :)

Gender fluid, may be yet another term, i would use. It is known, that women have a thicker corpus colossum joining the two halves of their brains, than males have, and it helps them multi-task, such as dealing with babies, and their husbands, or the pets, or whatever, at the same time. I agree that we all have the same emotions, which are an energy. Joy, anger, love, sadness are all energy. Men are at a bit of a disadvantage, in that they are les equipped generally, to multitask, and also accept their emotions and feelings as well. Women are more in touch with feeling, gemerally. But, Pamela, yes, SOME of us men, are definitely more sensitive and in touch with our feelings, and feminine side, than most, and even more so than many women! Every person is a bit different, though, for sure!

so stop analysing and enjoy being, who cares? I dress as I dress, and do as I do ... live and let live ...

Pamela,
I'm convinced more now that Cders can't say 100% they are one thing, we're at various stages on the male-female line ! I'm trying to get an answer, working with my counsellor to what is obsession and what is reality! The confusion doesn't clear when you dig deeper it just becomes more complex, we're all slightly different so one answer can't fit all !

Some say don't analyse it just do it and enjoy it !

I have to agree with Isha's second paragraph, I'm still the same person just present differently and in a way I prefer !

Easy, just look between the legs. Oh wait, you disallowed that. So, you have to define male and female in other terms. What are those terms, those definitions?

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Originally Posted by pamela7

So, any definitive male or female attributes that are non-physical?

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Actually, no. There is not a single non-physical attribute that can be found in women that can't be found in men. We think of gender as describing what men and women are like but gender only describes what our culture believes they should be like. Women should be caring, nurturing, cooperative, submissive, blah, blah, blah, and men should be competitive, dominant, protective, stoic, etc. Here's a list someone tried to put together. So if you are caring, sensitive, nurturing, etc. That doesn't mean you are "more female than male" it just means you have those attributes and our culture associates them with femininity.

How do you know you are a ..... You just know! The whole field of identity is fascinating. For instance, how do you know if you are a Therian/Otherkin?

There are lots of human behavioral traits that have been stereotypically attributed to one gender or the other that really are present in both sexes. I'd submit that the variations between members of the same birth gender are greater than the supposed variations between the binary genders. I'd go further in suggesting that accross the full spectrum of the TG population you'll see a similar degree of variability in terms of these presumed male and female traits.

You start by asking how One knows if he/she is male or female. The answer can't be found in these stereotypes. And the answer is seldom as easy as column A or column B. If you are TS, the answer is definitive...at least once one allows herself to acknowledge it. For the rest of us under the TG umbrella, it's a matter of degree. Finding the comfortable place between the two extremes is often the best we can hope for.

We're all a mixture of both in varying degrees Pamela. if you are okay with yourself knowing that, it really doesn't matter much.:battingeyelashes::)

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Easy, just look between the legs. Oh wait, you disallowed that. So, you have to define male and female in other terms. What are those terms, those definitions?

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There are none. We are diversi-T-y.

First, I'm not going to get into arguments about my opinions here, and I refuse to put the word 'some' into every opinion just because not every man or every woman fits the description, I'm not going to split hairs. So take this information for what you will, and if you disagree, feel free to state your opinions as well.

There are a lot of subtle differences between males and females. Much has been discovered in the past 100 years, and even more in the past few decades. What we deal with here, is the distinct difference between those of us who have female personalities, and those who WANT to have female personalities simply because they desire to be female even when they have no idea why they feel that way, and it's not always because they are truly TS. Look at all the videos on youtube, on training men how to behave like women, talk like women, move like women, etc.; it's all to help men do things that do not come natural to us. Early in my life, one of the things that made me believe that I was not TS (born in the wrong body syndrome) was that I was quite different from all the girls I knew, I just couldn't put my finger on exactly why. Later I found out. So, at the risk of giving all the guys who AREN'T inherently female already, stuff to try to train themselves with, here we go.
Men interact differently than women. A woman when approached will often acknowledge another with a smile. Men don't. Men will nod to each other; you don't ever see women doing that. Women will talk and talk about virtually nothing to each other for hours on end. Men will tend to remain silent unless we have something we want to say. A woman who's friend does not contact her for more than a very short time will feel that something's wrong, and feel that the other woman is intentionally ignoring her, so much so that teen age girls have committed suicide because they feel socially isolated from other girls who she was friends with or wants to befriend. Women bond through discussion; men bond through shared activities.
One John Gray book had this to say: When confronted with a problem with no solution, men will avoid talking about it. Women won't. A guy will say, 'Well, if we can't do anything about it, why talk about it?', while a woman will say, 'Well, if we can't do anything about it, at least we can talk about it'.
Women hate other women even when they don't even know anything about them. Usually it's because the other woman is younger/prettier/has the attention of men that the first woman wants. I don't know any men who behave this way, other than racists or homophobe type behavior.
Men have a better sense of direction; and when asked for directions, will use concrete descriptions such as, go west half mile, turn left onto rt 3, then go three miles and take rt 88 north. Women will say, go up this way until you see the 7-11, then turn left, you'll pass a red brick church with two elm trees. Then when you get to the hill look for the deli with the ice box on the side, and then turn right after the shell station. women tend to use landmarks rather than distances and street names.
Women will endlessly discuss the potential 'real meanings' of what someone else does or says. This is all due to their innate need to interpret infant's and other's behavior in order to survive. Men take things at first glance, and take what someone else says as what they mean without endless conjecture.
Women and men fight verbally in different ways. If a woman is wrong, she will avoid the subject, but bring up all kinds of other things that the man does which are wrong. If she is right, she will keep on addressing the main point. Men simply stay on topic, but we keep trying to come up with reasoning that other men would accept instead of addressing the problem that the woman has with his viewpoint.
A man can go for decades without speaking or contacting another man, and not feel that anything is wrong. Men speak in direc t language; if we're in a car and want to stop for coffee, we will say lets stop for coffee. Women speak in indirect language, and will ask the other person if THEY want to stop for coffee in order to imply that they, themselves want to stop for coffee. The list goes on and on, best documented in easy to read books by Alan and Barbara Pease, such as 'Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps' and an assortment of other books they published, filled with observations on how men and women are different. The innate differences in mating behavior between the sexes can be found in books by Timothy Perper's 'Biology of love' and Leil Lowndes assortment of relationship books. It would take books worth of pages to fill, so I'll just leave those references here for those who want to know more. You can find all their books on amazon (disclaimer, I don't work for amazon, but it's the easiest way to find those books. They might be cheaper elsewhere).
Again, not ALL men behave the way described, nor ALL women. But most of this information seems accurate. Again, none of this is my discovery. You can read all about it in the books by the authors mentioned.

thank you sometimes-miss, I've read "some" of those books, i have some of both M&F characteristics, as maybe many people do. I've generally felt well-balanced as a person tho many think i'm mad and unpredictable. I can't explain why I'm wearing clothing normally associated with women, but I am, I like it, and I'm going to continue until such time as I decide not - if that ever happens!

Yes, there are statistical differences between men and women but they are usually small and can be explained in large part by socialization. By the way, even differences in brain structure can be explained in part by socialization. Science is finding out that the brain is much more plastic than they formerly believed. But what if boys and girls were socialized exactly the same way and there still were some measurable differences? What would that mean? Using a physical difference as an example: the average height for a woman is about 5'5" (I'm just guessing here) and the average height for a man is about 5'11." That's a big difference yet we don't talk about someone being a woman's height or a man's height because we know there are plenty of women that are taller than the average man and plenty of men shorter than the average woman. Your height can not be used to determine you sex. Why should it be any different for non-physical attributes where the statistical difference is probably much smaller?

After reading this thread, my opinion is that virtually all of the criteria for being one or the other besides the physical may suggest that I am actually a male which I am quite sure is not the case.

I think many of the things we use to determine gender are base on how we are raised and the local culture and it is impossible to say 'oh you do XYZ you are a woman (or man)'. It is how you feel, what you feel not how you act, how you respond or speak.

The few transgender people I have spoken to in person have explained a feeling their entire life of being trapped in the wrong body, never feeling quite right in their own skin until they realized why and began the process to change. not one of them said 'well I am caring, I am emotional when intimate, so I must transition'

Lil Sissy Stevie, You bring up height. At six foot six, and 245 lbs, even when i am very ladies up, my size says "its a man in a dress". Size is an issue for some of us, who would like to blend more. And there is stereotyping, which is pretty true, but makes it tough.

Sounds like another "Nature or Nurture" question to me.

Interesting topic, some insightful answers from Isha and others.

I'm with Isha and some of the others on this. I think gender is at least a spectrum, and maybe more than that. Not many people, if any, fit entirely within the strictest definition of either male or female gender. And a lot of what defines gender is cultural anyway, and changes over time.

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Originally Posted by justmetoo

I'm with Isha and some of the others on this. I think gender is at least a spectrum, and maybe more than that. Not many people, if any, fit entirely within the strictest definition of either male or female gender. And a lot of what defines gender is cultural anyway, and changes over time.

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I'm with these girls. I think a better term is a continuum. What's most important is that we are expressing that which makes us happy and (hopefully) no one gets hurt.

This stuff always cracks me up. For me it's really simple. I totally identify with male lions. I'm partial to having a small herd of females around to keep pregnant and to come to the rescue when all else fails. Otherwise I'm happy to be out peeing on rocks and marking my territory.

Why do people always have to fit in a box?
Be yourself and enjoy the duality of your personality.
I think being the way I am is the best of both worlds.I'm not stuck being one or the other.

I'm with you Tracii, trying to define someone only works for them, and why do
we need a definition, I am Me.

Well, yes....
How do we know, I think it is all in the mind.

It is our own perception and something private.

the more i see the responses, the more i see this was a trick question for myself. thankyou everyone for responding.

if it's even a 2-sided coin with a thick edge, that does not explain the diversity, rather than thinking of this one-dimensionally, perhaps male and female are two independent things, of which we all have varying degrees of, and every so-called attribute of these non-physically is up for debate as to its nature/nurture element.

Either we like the stereotypical clothing for our body-gender or we do not, either we like our body as it is or we do not, or somewhere in between.

We perhaps have a personal gender identity, or perhaps many people never even thought of it, it's all too complex, which luckily means, just accept life and everyone as they are, and don't worry about it.

Except, worry, hiding, fear of the mainstream judgements and very real threats to life, integrity and livelihood - the debate I'd like to see is how we help eachother to grow the community, wider awareness and create a public acceptance that we're not a deviant dangerous sex group - look to the politicians for that!

PS do the naturalists fit in somewhere? (the no-clothes at all brigade)?

I've been working as a nurse for twenty years now and can safely say that I think like a woman more than ever. My job has allowed my "Feminine" emotions to rise to the top and I am praised for my thoughtfulness, caring, gentleness and relationship with my patients and staff. Over time I have even been allowed into casual conversation about fashion and even make-up since I put it out there a while ago that I had been a cosmetic buyer for a retail chain before I went into nursing. The other nurses appreciate my noticing when they restyle their hair or wear a top that makes their eyes sparkle. I think that I am very astute. Little do they know how much I copy them when I dress. I do admit that I feel a bit closer to my granddaughters than grandsons but not enough to be noticed. Like a good grandparent, I love them all so much.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Why do people always have to fit in a box?
Be yourself and enjoy the duality of your personality.
I think being the way I am is the best of both worlds.I'm not stuck being one or the other.

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Yes why do people have to fit in a box OR be put in a box by others. The way I see it its their box not mine.
Traci, do you think its a duality of personality or maybe the complete personality? I can have very strong opinions but have always tried to view things in an equitable way or from a scientific viewpoint.

Never cared how men will view women in a negative manner.

I have been mistaken for a girl a few times in my life through no trying on my part. Kinda surprised me albeit in a good way.

My hair has been permed for a while now and I have gotten some "looks". For the most part most could care less. I didn't get it for just the Karen side but because its what >I< wanted.
Though not quite ready for the going out thingy I am just as comfortable in a skirt as pants.
Been learning makeup and want to find someone to do the makeover.

Nuff rambling for now all...

Karen

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Originally Posted by pamela7

I've been pondering this a while anyway, but I mean, if we've always assumed one thing, does it means its true? How do we "know" we're M/F/TG/TS/... ?

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1. Assuming your gender identity matches your physical sex does not make it true. For one thing - they tell you what it is based on a glance between your legs. Unfortunately, your sex organs don't determine your gender, your brain does.

2. This isn't easy for all of us, it can take some time to strip away years of socialization they've shoved down your throat. We get told we're men - sometimes this is beaten into us quite violently. But when you strip away the lies, you just know "I'm a woman" or "I'm a man." Our sense of gender is built into our minds.

In my case, I always knew I was supposed to be a woman - but it seemed so insane, the rest of the world told me "no you are a man" and that I had some type of sexual perversion. I mean, some people get ideas in their mind that aren't real. Maybe that was me! So I buried these feelings. Besides, even if I knew they were real, doing anything about them seemed impossible. So best not to think about it. Besides, the world hated trans women, I saw plenty of evidence of that.

I could no longer deny it two years ago, though. When I attempted suicide, and realized that I would rather die than keep up the fiction that I was a man, I could no longer deny who I was or what I had to do. I had to transition.

Even today, if someone held a gun to my head and told me I had to go back to life as a man, or they'd execute me on the spot, I'd look them in the eye, and tell them to pull the trigger.

I will die before I deny who I am again. I feel that strongly about it. I am a woman. I have always been a woman, my life before was almost entirely a fiction I hid behind. I deliberately created it - I had to, to survive. But almost none of it was me.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Pamela,
I'm convinced more now that Cders can't say 100% they are one thing, we're at various stages on the male-female line ! I'm trying to get an answer, working with my counsellor to what is obsession and what is reality! The confusion doesn't clear when you dig deeper it just becomes more complex, we're all slightly different so one answer can't fit all !

Some say don't analyse it just do it and enjoy it !

I have to agree with Isha's second paragraph, I'm still the same person just present differently and in a way I prefer !

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I think Teresa's post really sums this up.
No question that the topic can become very convoluted.

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Originally Posted by Sierra_juliette

After reading this thread, my opinion is that virtually all of the criteria for being one or the other besides the physical may suggest that I am actually a male which I am quite sure is not the case.

I think many of the things we use to determine gender are base on how we are raised and the local culture and it is impossible to say 'oh you do XYZ you are a woman (or man)'. It is how you feel, what you feel not how you act, how you respond or speak.

The few transgender people I have spoken to in person have explained a feeling their entire life of being trapped in the wrong body, never feeling quite right in their own skin until they realized why and began the process to change. not one of them said 'well I am caring, I am emotional when intimate, so I must transition'

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Quite right. While it is likely true that more males are able to engage in physical intimacy without a need for a strong emotional connection, or that they do not need one or feel one, (and I have been with more than just a couple of woman who didn't need it either...) I believe that any man who is in love with the person whom he is making love with is emotionally connect with her.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

There are lots of human behavioral traits that have been stereotypically attributed to one gender or the other that really are present in both sexes. I'd submit that the variations between members of the same birth gender are greater than the supposed variations between the binary genders. I'd go further in suggesting that accross the full spectrum of the TG population you'll see a similar degree of variability in terms of these presumed male and female traits.

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I agree.

Just look at any large group of women (or men), who are gathered together. I've done this many times on campus. The range in their looks, their energies and their personalities including their ability to express emotions is huge! The men might be less apt to show their softer emotions in public and come to think of it, I know of few women who feel comfortable showing the depth of their emotions in public too, but privately everyone feels them. As to your example about attaching emotion to sex, there are indeed women who do not feel ashamed of wanting a good romp without any strings attached. We've come a long way since the 1950s. :)

I raised three boys and I can tell you that when they were little, they got just as excited about stuff as girls did (jumping up and down with glee, screaming with delight) and they cried just as much when they were sad or angry. All those feelings were innate and it is only when they socialized with other boys as they got older, that they got the message, "real men don't show emotion". I did not discourage my sons from showing emotion, ever, and even today I would cradle them if they cried, even though they are adult.

That said, you ask how do you know if you are male or female. I agree with those who have mentioned this, I think it basically boils down to anatomy. I know I am a woman because I feel comfortable with my female sex. It doesn't matter how I dress or how I look, or how often I cry and if I didn't feel congruent with my body (if I felt at odds with my breasts and vagina) then I'd ask myself some questions. I suspect if this was the case, I'd have felt the incongruence all my life.

Pamela, great post. You got me thinking and I also exhibit those traits of nurturing (a stay at home dad) and looking back there were several times in my single days where I had a clear opportunity to add to my "number" and gently opted out because I didn't feel that connection (trust me the next day I was sort of kicking myself). This may be amazing to some but I really hadn't thought of this aspect until you made your post.
I plan on discussing this at my next therapy session.

How would you know? Check out your blanket. If your blanket is pink, you are a girl. If its blue, you're a boy. Simple, isn't it.

Jodi

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Originally Posted by Alice Torn

It is known, that women have a thicker corpus colossum joining the two halves of their brains, than males have, and it helps them multi-task,

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I love when people pass along information like this as if it is known fact:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9353793

http://jezebel.com/5627598/5-myths-a...e-female-brain

Don't you just love Google!

To the OP, I have no idea how to tell!

The OP, that's me, does have a better-than-average connection between his/her hemispheres. However, that may not be related to the price of fish, for there are many dyslexics and autists.