Communication and moving forward: All observations welcomed - GGs encouraged

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER: While I know some do not like the term SO, I am using it as a catch all for people irrespective of the person being your wife, girl friend, boy friend, husband . . . it just makes it easier. So sorry for any offence taken.

I have been noticing quite a few posts from folks who have recently come out to their SOs with things going swimmingly only to have it all fall off the rails prompting advice sought from the community. One of the common denominators I find in a lot of these posts is the communication or lack there of. So I thought in an effort to help those who may be in that place, I would discuss communication based on my own experience mixed with much I have learned from the many great people here . Okay, okay . . . I shamelessly admit I just like to write and since I have not done so in awhile it gives me the opportunity to jump on the soapbox :heehee: But seriously, it is an important part of disclosure to your SOs and one that gets talked about as secondary order effect but not the topic of a post. Please note that this is not about "telling your SO" but more about where you go from that point. Feel free to add to the discussion based on your own experience but, I am also interested in hearing from GGs who have experienced this journey from the opposite side of the fence.

So . . . the proverbial cat is now out of the bag and the elephant in the room is securely seated in the arm chair opposite you sipping politely on a mint julep . . . you have told your SO that you cross dress. :eek:

Naturally, there is going to be a "waiting to exhale" moment as your SO processes what you just said and then reacts. In most cases it is going to go one of a few ways (1) "I understand completely", hugs all around, "Let's get your girl on"; (2) a curt "I see" followed by silence then a barrage of questions; (3) silence followed by retreat to the safety of a room; or (4) non acceptance on any level usually accompanied by yelling, fighting and whatnot. Nope, not the only reactions but others tend to be variations of these themes. So where does that leave you? Well depending on the outcome, it can leave you twisting in the wind or not. However, in either case communication is going to be a key ingredient to move the disclosure forward.

Timing for communication will vary depending the outcome. If your SO is fully supportive from the outset you can commence the discussion almost immediately. However, even then you might want to keep things light and respond to questions without getting too wrapped up in minutia details. For example you might want to talk about what dressing means to you and not get mired in what types of undies you prefer to wear or that you would like to get breast forms right away. Initial conversations should help alleviate your SOs concerns and help them to better understand what this means to you. If your SO has gone to silent mode or you just had a huge argument . . . give them room. Let cooler heads prevail and then come at it in a day or so starting off with something like "I know what I disclosed was a lot to drop on you but I would really like to discuss this a bit further if you are willing" The key is to get the discussion on the table and move forward. Ignoring it will only go bad for both of you and likely wind up in a heated debate. Naturally this has to be balanced with sensitivity to your SO wanting space and time but that is something you can work on together to find a mutually agreed upon time to discuss.

Dos and Don'ts

This is based on my own experience and some may have other feelings on these so please do share. Initial conversation(s) will have themes (e.g., are you gay, do you want a sex change, do you want to go out) which represent the foundation of all future conversations about your dressing. So some personal dos and don'ts I have discerned both in my own conversations and from people here:

Do ask your SO if they have any questions: It is no good to drop this tidbit of information, let it sit out there then say "We're good then" and walk away. Your SO is going to have questions, so let them ask those questions and always let them know they can ask you anything at any time.

Do be honest in your responses: The cat is already out the bag so you don't really have anything to hide. If your SO asks you a question be honest in your response. If you don't know, say so. For example if your SO asks do you plan to go out of the house dressed and you are not 100 percent sure you have no desire to do so, say "At this point no, but I am not sure about the future as I am still trying to find myself as well. What I can tell you is if I should decide to do so, I will definitely have that discussion with you"

Do allow your SO time to process your conversation(s): Don't always expect an immediate "thumbs up" on everything you are telling your SO. It may take time to process and if your SO cannot give you the "nod" on something you said, table it for discussion later. Specifically, don't force the issue.

Don't make promises you know you can't keep: This kind of goes hand in hand with the "be honest". I have found that some are so fixated on getting concessions for dressing (in any way) that they will promise the moon knowing full well they cannot. So they promise not to do something only to try and covertly push the issue later. For example, "I promise not to go out dressed in public", knowing full well they already have and will continue to do so on the sly. This will never go well should your SO find out and will most likely sabotage any mutual gains made.

Don't make it all about you: I know it seems kind of counter-intuitive since you are the one disclosing this information. However there are two people who are going to have to navigate this journey and both need to be considered.

Don't act like a petulant child if you don't get your way: I am not trying to be harsh but if you are going to stomp your feet and say things like "that's not fair" or "fine, I'll just throw everything out and be miserable" that will accomplish nothing. Take what your SO is saying as a potential boundary of how far they are willing to go and capitalize on it to open dialogue. For example, if it is important for you to have that concession, look for a mutual compromise. "Okay, I am fine with not going out in public in case some of our friends see me but how about if I were to travel to a place where nobody knows me, would that work?".

It is about compromise . . . not demands

Inevitably the conversation will spin in "How is this going to work"? Specifically what you want to do (e.g., underdress, make-up/no make-up, full dressing, going out). Again there are two people involved and no one party (the CDer or the SO) should be holding all the cards. If one party is making all the demands and the other party all the concessions, it will go badly at some juncture as the one making all the concessions will become bitter, resentful and things will explode. Talk about everything and come to an accord on what you can both live with or live without. This is dependent on you and your SO and everyone will be different. For example, my wife has no issues with me dressing when I want so long as it doesn't impinge on agreed upon plans. So if I decided to dress one day (nothing else on the go) I just do so, I don't ask permission or request the honor to do so as we have agreed it is my decision. However, if I plan to out myself to a mutual friend then we discuss it prior as she has requested a veto depending on the mutual friend . . . I agreed to that. The end state is that boundaries, rules, guidelines or whatever you prefer to call them need to be mutually agreed upon to have any value. In addition, all boundaries should be open to renegotiation should things change. This is not just for the CDer but for the SO as well should their feelings of support change.

Communication is not a one time thing

The process of communication is an ongoing thing. For example my wife I started or initial conversation when I first came out and that was followed by many others as we negotiated boundaries, renegotiated and educated one another. We still take one day a month (down from once a week initially) to discuss all things CD. It just helps to keep the dialogue option open and while many times we have nothing to discuss other times we do.

Misinterpreting moods, silence and whatnot

As humans we are emotional creatures and various things affect our mood. I know I can have a bad day at work and come home all sullen and silent and the same can be said about others. However, should your SO come home while you happen to be in "full on girl mode" and go silent and moody don't naturally assume they are upset with your CDing. While that may be the case, it could also be just as likely that they had a bad day at work and are just trying to vent. Shake it off, then simply ask "if there is anything you can do". If it is just a bad day, then help your SO work through it. If it does have something to do with CDing, then you need to get back to the fundamentals of communication and work through it. On the return side, should you get sullen and moody about something which has nothing to do with your CDing or agreed upon boundaries, let your SO know so they don't think you are upset about your agreements.

Communication is about education

You have to admit, this is a lot for an SO to swallow and your communication should always aim to educate what it means to you and how you see it fitting into your relationship. This goes both ways as you need to listen to your SO to ensure you are in tune with their needs when it comes to the relationship.

When things go bad

It is probable that you could be moving in a rapid forward direction with dressing then all of sudden your SO's acceptance comes completely off the rails. Should this occur . . . take a deep breath, calm things down and begin the communication process again. This may mean reevaluation of boundaries or simple reassurance. Regardless, don't let it twist in the wind and rationally discuss how to move forward from there. Bear in mind though, at the end of the day should an impasse be reached and neither can compromise this is where the viability of the relationship needs to be examined as sometimes it can be a bridge too far for either party to cross.

Hugs

Isha

A well-done tome, Isha. Looks like great advice.

Magnificent! Thank you, Isha!

Hugs,
Persephone.

Hi

I understand that importance of communication, however, it is a two way thing.

If your SO is not willing to communicate and just shuts down any conversation straight away then how often do you keep prodding in the hope of getting a reaction? You have to be careful as it may not be the reaction you want!

If she needs time to process the information then is she better left alone - however long it takes. (weeks, months or years)? Let her initiate the communication when she is good and ready. I'm sure she doesn't need to be constantly reminded that you CD by you bringing it up every 5 minutes. As you say it's not all about you so don't keeping pushing it.

Maybe she doesn't care that you CD but just doesn't want to be involved - why would she want to talk about it? I know my wife has no interest in cricket and so I don't discuss that with her either!

I don't want to be negative but just give an alternate view to the need to communicate all the time.

Katie

Thank you Isha, I sense a book coming on, if not at least an article or sticky here.

If I may add some comments from my own mistakes and things I got right - so far:

1. there can never be enough reassurance of love, demonstrations of still being the same man, so do those manly things she appreciates, do MORE of them.

2. we might scare our SO by revealing how little we know of how far it might go, so I feel its best to express the present feeling as the present truth.

3. be supersensitive and open to her, she will not know her own responses, and deserves time to deal with the shock. governments through the ages rarely give the public shocks, they give piecemeal truths because it allows time for adaption and acceptance.

4. I'd be wary of a whole complete CD revelation and suggest gradual steps, yes it feels like manipulation but it's safer for both and the relationship, and its really caring rather than relieving a personal burden of need-to-reveal.

just some thoughts :-)

xxx Pamela

I like the do's and don'ts. Looking forward to following this thread. Thanks Isha!

Hi Katie,

I don't debate your stance at all and in a way it is in keeping with what I wrote. It is plausible that your SO will not want to talk about it after the big reveal and go into silent shut down mode. You can try to give it time and then bring it up again and your SO will either agree to talk or decline. If your SO declines to talk then you can accept that you have moved into a DADT relationship in which case your boundaries are clear . . . never let your SO see you dressed, never discuss dressing or broach the subject again. If you can live with that then that is the best way forward. However, I will posit that not talking about it (at all) will most likely fly off the rails at some point in the relationship as something like that is just too big to ignore.

Hugs

Isha

Hi Isha

I accept that I and many other members here are in DADT relationships. Because of the fact we are in a DADT does that not preclude us from bring up the subject every so often. All I'm saying is that if she wants to talk about it I'm willing to discuss it openly. If not then I'm not going to raise the subject.

I've posted thread here about how to instigate the conversation but at the end of the day I don't want to rock the boat so just drift along in ignorant bliss. Maybe I am just kicking the can down the road but why bring something to a head now when there is so much to lose.

Katie

Hi & thank u for the wonderful post Isha.
As a GG, I can say a lot about communication. I will start with a portion of my intro which I feel fits quite nicely here:
"We met on an online dating site, corresponded by Messenger & phone for almost two years, then finally met in person in October 2013. We have been together ever since & I really don't want to lose him. He says he told me during that time that he liked to wear women's clothes. He may have made oblique references to it, which was easy for me to ignore or pretend I didn't hear what I thought I did. I would have appreciated him telling me in clear, concrete terms; I may not have felt the sense of betrayal & dishonesty that I do now (I told him EVERYTHING about me). I tell myself that I do trust him & I accept his lifestyle choices, however, sometimes I feel like I am lying to myself & to him. That I don't really accept & never will. I feel like I am caught in the crosshairs of what is a "choice that is not a choice;" if I want to keep him (which I do with all my heart) I have to accept. But sometimes I feel like I am just tolerating for the sake of the relationship...."
Excessive communication can be too much of a good thing, however. I don't think DADT is the right answer for my personal situation, but constant conversation about all the aspects of CDing can cause me to want to bury my head under the covers & pretend it doesn't exist at all. I don't need the constant reminder that my world has been turned upside down & I am struggling to right myself & not slide off the edge...
I have my own issues (depression, anxiety, etc.) to deal with which creates wildly inconsistent mood changes. I struggle to survive in a world that is at best a gyroscope that manages to stay upright the majority of the time. I know my SO has difficulty understanding & accepting my worldview just as I do his. Communication is doubling vital in our relationship, however, cannot take over our lives & become the only thing we have in common (the CD conversations I mean).
Ah hell, I think I am not making sense any more & will just stop here. For those who are interested, plz read my initial introduction as it explains in much clearer terms my feelings & reactions to my SO's CDing. I was in a good place that day & the words just flowed... :D

Lots of great information, should be a sticky.

Isha, an excellent presentation, I'll have do spend a little time digesting what you have said. My experience so far is somewhere between a 2 and a 3. More later!

Hugs, Bria

So much good stuff here. My own 2cents from my own situation.... communication yes, but don't overdo it. Talks don't have to go on for hours. My wife doesn't mind talking about it, but not for very long, maybe up to a half hour, usually not even that. At least once in a while, show them a time when it could be your time, and you opt not too, just to be with her and no direct mention of dressing or anything TG related. In other words, don't always make them ask you for some time without "it"

My wife feels a sense of relief when I will remind her that I am not asking for or demanding her to like this aspect of me. I think that this can be an added pressure we may not fully understand.

Sometimes, just make light of it without serious discussion. Make fun of it, or yourself, but not in too condescending of a way. I always try to remember to say and in other ways show my appreciation for her acceptance. Appreciation in the fact that this is something a very large majority of women never have to deal with, and many who simply can not or would not accept.

Isha,
We all know that you have been through a bad time and your advice is well thought out and written and many thanks for that !

I have to take up Katie's points because I feel I'm in the same situation ! You finally decide to come clean be honest about your CDing but you don't get any response, and if you push too hard you get an explosion ! Katie doesn't mention her age but I can tell you it doesn't get any easier with age ! Mentally you can't take the same pressure eventually you find you've run into a brick wall and struggle to function at all !
If it takes more than a few days to respond to the conversation it's not going to happen at all, leaving it weeks or months is purgatory ! I find it unfair of your partner because you honestly want to clear the air !
I have commented on boundaries before, they have to sensible workable ones, otherwise you find your partner inadvertently on the wrong side of them and your no better off because they aren't working !
I know Isha has strong views on workable boundaries !

I have no interest in cricket either, doesn't mean I can't listen to someone who does. Maybe I am missing something I might like. But then i am one who believes you can never say you don't like something until you experience it. The point is that while I may not like it, I think having someone who is interested in it explain a little about it could at least give me an idea about why I would not like it.

This is the point I see Isha making. While it may not be their cup of tea (sorry, stuck on the cricket analogy), if they are part of your life you should at least let them make that decision, not you. If after hearing about or watching a match on television, or maybe even meeting a cricket team, they still don't then a DADT relationship is possible.

Communication, education and importantly patience. It can work.... I've gone from an almost hateful and resentful DADT to my wife actively supporting me, accompanying me out to functions and sometimes more engrossed in the pink fog than I was...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pamela7

Thank you Isha, I sense a book coming on, if not at least an article or sticky here.

---

I've thought for a while that a co-authored book by Isha and Reine would be an interesting addition and helpful for the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isha

However, I will posit that not talking about it (at all) will most likely fly off the rails at some point in the relationship as something like that is just too big to ignore.

---

Isha, it is difficult to understand the many nuances of DADT arrangements and their ability to provide satisfactory outcomes, particularly for those who are accepted or, even better, supported by their SOs.

I can absolutely assure you that a DADT arrangement works wonderfully well for my wife and I. My wife absolutely does not want to know/see/talk about my dressing. That is how she copes - out of sight out of mind. My only boundaries are those self-imposed.

very good stuff. I'd like to share a couple of my thoughts along the same vein. So many things extraneous to CDing can adversely impact on a marriage. If one knows the relationship is already under stress for other reasons, then it would be a very good idea to assess the state of the relationship and address these other factors first. Stabilize the base before you start adding to the load.

The other thing I'd add - Assume nothing. Ever. If uncertain, please take the time to ask your partner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isha

This is based on my own experience and some may have other feelings on these so please do share. Initial conversation(s) will have themes (e.g., are you gay, do you want a sex change, do you want to go out) which represent the foundation of all future conversations about your dressing.

---

People need to be very careful about the question "will you transition?" You can really only give an honest answer about what you'll do now. The future is often very difficult to know with any precision. I can't tell you how many here have told me "I'LL NEVER TRANSITION!" Yet, a number of them are now.

I wish you'd offered some advice on what to do when things are bad from the outset - and they stay bad. That was my experience. I tried counseling, a lot of communication, all sorts of compromises. There was, unfortunately, just one little thing I couldn't compromise on. Didn't matter anyway - this was all bad enough. Anyway, my marriage ended the day I came out, for all intents and purposes.

Like I said - be really careful with forward looking statements.

With that said, I'd like to offer a few tips for preparations to consider in the eventuality that things go horribly, horribly wrong. Because sometimes they do. I've noticed the trend that people who have that experience, an extremely unaccepting spouse, tend not to stay around here for long. Anyway, how to prepare for disaster:
1. Have a plan about where you'll go in the short term. Hopefully, it's just the couch, but you should think about a place to crash elsewhere.

2. Have a bag packed with at least a few clothes, essentials in them.

3. Have a plan about where you might live long term, if you divorce over this. At least have some idea about where you'll go and what you'll do. A realistic plan. A plan that doesn't start with "if everything goes well..."

4. Have a really serious plan about what happens to you both financially if things go south. You need to figure this out while you are still relatively calm, and be ready to execute it if things go wrong. Because some partners will think nothing of destroying either you, or the both of you, financially when they are really upset. (I am not saying take all the money. I am saying protect both of your interests as best you can.)

5. Have a counselor who understands this stuff dialed in and ready to go. (Not your own personal counselor, if you have one.) I think this is important, and will hopefully help you turn a really, really bad reaction around over time.

6. Be prepared to be calm, and to try to communicate as best you can (all of Isha's other advice), if things go south. Be kind to your SO, even if they aren't terribly nice to you. They may not be because they may have a fairly extreme negative emotional response to the reveal.

7. Be prepared for damage control. She may out you to others. Sometimes lots of others. You need to have some idea how you'll handle this, should it happen. (By the way, this is a very, very bad sign, in my opinion, should it happen. Because the option of quietly joining you in the closet as the SO of a CD is no longer on the table, and if she's irrational enough not to realize that outing you is very rarely going to do anything but make things harder on her, then the relationship is probably doomed.)

8. Understand that some here on the forum will blame you for the end of the relationship. This will really hurt when you reach out for support. Not everyone will - in fact most here will be quite supportive. But some will blame you.

9. You need to be emotionally prepared - not expecting, just prepared - for things to go badly, both initially, and possibly over the long term, even including the end of the relationship. Look - no one is going to be totally prepared for all of that, trust me, it isn't possible. But don't be blindsided by the possibility either. If the worst happens, you have to finally come to terms with the notion that some things just aren't meant to be. It doesn't make either one of you bad people. Sometimes things just go horribly wrong in this life. Do your best to be ready for this, so you both can get on with your lives as intact as possible.

If this goes bad, you aren't really going to know for sure for a number of days, at the least. You are likely to be quite emotional yourself. You may be hurt, angry, feel horribly wronged - and those things may be actually true because she may say some awful things to you. Don't let your emotions overwhelm you. This is why it is important to have a plan. Because once you enter the downward spiraling roller coaster of a doomed trans relationship, you are likely to not think extremely clearly yourself.

Again, I want to emphasize that anything you plan in advance needs to be done with fairness and love, and it needs to protect the both of you. You love this woman, presumably, or you'd just split with her and presumably avoid this whole mess. You may well not feel fairness and love right after this blows up, if that is indeed what happens. But your plan needs to respond in that way - with fairness and love, because trust me, you are very likely to feel quite guilty should your relationship end.

Hopefully everyone on the forum has an ultimately accepting spouse, and none of these suggestions are ever necessary. Again, I only suggest that folks here prepare themselves for the worst, and then hopefully they only experience the best.

Hi Isha,
Wow nice comments here. My SO has posted here. I being a DES Son have a physical problem of having very much female precursor. Had feminine thoughts all of my life, yet my right brain functions highly as I became and Engineer for my career. I am now retired and found this wonderful woman. Ran as a highly functioning male for all of my life fathered and raised kids, have multiple grandad kids and a couple great grand kids. I am now trying to display my female side,. I will buy land and build a new house and barn. One more time. I've also been a cowboy and ranched for fifteen years. I learned a lot of common sense from the ranchers. I too have gone through a divorce and lost basically everything that I had which was an awful lot. I managed to keep some precious pictures. I've been a male since I was born. Have thought many times it would be better to be a girl. I'm stuck in this male body. Would I transition... No yet if you look up a DES son, they basically observed that our path forward can only use estrogen. I've been a male for a lifetime. I'm not going to throw that away. I brought out the CDing to her as I was beside myself and I thought we were heading for a crash. Any estrogen in the environment goes into my body and I am slowly turning. I look at other younger males and go wow, I'm changing. I do a Get fit routine and yoga to keep in shape. Its funny but only other girls do those routines. A couple of males show up once in a great while. I am trying to keep my male resolve. I cross-dress because it seems right. I have told my SO that I want to pass walking on my land with my boots on. I am staying male and dressing only part time. WE do got out and plan on more trips. I think we have fun planning that. It seems to be good conversation with her. Yet I know that it bothers her. I think that if you are in a hetero relationship you must keep your male image strong. Part time is good with me and I can have the fun of it and it is like new so the thrill is always there. Communication is the most important thing that you can do with your SO.

Very well done!! This should go up as a sticky.

A reaction I've read here often that I do not understand, is "Well, I told her. She's not talking to me about it, but the ball is in her court", which apparently releases the CDer from the uncomfortable responsibility of broaching the subject again. Or, "My wife doesn't want to talk about it, we're in a DADT". I've often wondered if these members actually prefer the safety of the closet. And it could well be that the desire to CD is weaker in these people, which makes an occasional visit to a closet perfectly doable.

But for people who cannot live like this, as a GG I cannot fathom another GG turning a deaf ear if her husband tells her, "This is not a whim. I cannot live without CDing, I cannot pretend to you that it does not exist. We need to talk so we can set up some ground rules, which means finding a place where I can store my stuff, and finding times when I can crossdress, even if you do not want to be involved. I will not force this onto you, I completely respect your decision to not be involved, but you need to know that I do dress, I do enjoy buying clothing and I refuse to sneak around like I am some sort of criminal."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReineD

But for people who cannot live like this, as a GG I cannot fathom another GG turning a deaf ear if her husband tells her, "This is not a whim. I cannot live without CDing, I cannot pretend to you that it does not exist...and I refuse to sneak around like I am some sort of criminal."

---

Wonderful comments Reine. And Isha's hopeful dos and donts were invaluable (or will be)

But why can't many of us just live without it? Many have for many years. Why not just continue as it has been for so many years? Is it that the need for self-acceptance after living a life in denial, of hiding such a fundamental part of our true nature, for so long, may first need the acceptance of the one with whom we are so intimate? In a marriage, in so many ways we validate each other. This acceptance may be essential to self-acceptance. And just preparing to leave or having a bag packed if necessary doesn't seem like a good option.
Alice

Hi all,

Thanks very much for all your kind comments thus far and added content :) I do want to clarify a few points in case I have caused offence:

1. This is not a declaration of war against DADT relationships. My intent was to help those who have just initiated "the reveal" and where to move forward from there. Yes it is quite possible that your SO will not want to talk about it "at all" but I am going to assume that for those in a DADT relationship, you have talked about it on some level and settled into your arrangement. I have read from many who water here that their DADT works and both parties are quite happy with the arrangement but that was most likely achieved through communication on some level. So please don't read into this that DADT folks have nothing to add . . . please do from your perspective. That was the reason for the post, I can only speak to what I have experienced. :)

2. This is not designed to "force people to tell their SO". I have always maintained and will always maintain that is "your choice". Again the intent of this post was to help those who have made that active decision move forward from ground zero :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gendermutt

So much good stuff here. My own 2cents from my own situation.... communication yes, but don't overdo it. Talks don't have to go on for hours . . .

---

Hi GM,

Very true and thanks for mentioning that point. My wife points out a few times that she can get saturated with "let's talk about TG and our relationship" for lengthy periods. Sometimes a quick to the point chat is the best option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pamela7

. . . there can never be enough reassurance of love, demonstrations of still being the same man, so do those manly things she appreciates

---

Hi Pamela,

A very sound way to be as things progress. This is going to be difficult in the early stages and communication coupled with being the same person you always were is going to be important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kimdl93

. . . If one knows the relationship is already under stress for other reasons, then it would be a very good idea to assess the state of the relationship and address these other factors first. Stabilize the base before you start adding to the load.

---

Hi Kim,

As always . . . spot on. This is very true in that if the relationship is already faltering, dropping a bomb like this and expecting communication to go well . . . will not likely be the outcome. [QUOTE]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

. . .I wish you'd offered some advice on what to do when things are bad from the outset - and they stay bad . . . With that said, I'd like to offer a few tips for preparations to consider in the eventuality that things go horribly, horribly wrong. Because sometimes they do.

---

Hi Paula,

Exactly the reason for my post . . . to share advice and experience. Thanks for posting your take on what to do if things go bad. :)

Hugs all,

Isha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReineD

... I refuse to sneak around like I am some sort of criminal."

---

After that last encounter with a razor I think of myself as a, smooth criminal. Ha, kidding. All interesting points.

My experience has been mixed. Like many, in my marriage it came up as an extension to bdsm, just a fetish. However through communication we've discovered that it's more than that and we both think parts of it is fun, now. The biggest revelation my short time on here is that your GG ordered steak and got a fruit salad. (I don't mean offnse so everyone keep your panties on). And with that I realized that she should have the right to participate or not, she should have the chance to only jump in for the parts that she's currently excited about or nothing. And it's that freedom from expectations that has liberated us both. It was about the time I sincerely explained I wanted to explore this and it was ok that she didn't participate that she relaxed and could see the potential for fun past the bedroom activities.

I'm not saying use this as a guide and a means to convincing your SO. Rather don't cling to your wishes or expectations for how it could or "should" be. If your having to force the subject you've probably already got her answer. And I'm not suggesting that anyone purge if she's not into having some girly time. She can no more expect you to stop and change who you are or what you like than you can expect her to touch up your make up.

Hi

Isha I didn't take your post as an attack on DADT arrangements. My interpretation of your post was for relationship that are progressing on a linear route. Yes it is important to keep communications open and for boundaries to be explored as time progresses. As you say never say never.

All I wanted to give was an alternative view.

In answer to Reine's observations

Quote:

---

"Well, I told her. She's not talking to me about it, but the ball is in her court", which apparently releases the CDer from the uncomfortable responsibility of broaching the subject again.

---

I have tried to broach the subject again but each time it has been batted away (another cricket analogy). How many times do you flog a dead horse?

Quote:

---

"This is not a whim. I cannot live without CDing, I cannot pretend to you that it does not exist. We need to talk so we can set up some ground rules, which means finding a place where I can store my stuff, and finding times when I can crossdress, even if you do not want to be involved. I will not force this onto you, I completely respect your decision to not be involved, but you need to know that I do dress, I do enjoy buying clothing and I refuse to sneak around like I am some sort of criminal."

---

We talked and she know that I need to dress, we currently have a DADT arrangement, I have somewhere to store my clothes, I have sufficient time to dress in private and she does not want to be involved. I will not force her into it, she knows I dress, she knows I buy clothes and I only dress at home when the kids are not around which normally coincides when she is not around.

The one caveat I do make, which has been subject to a previous thread, is that I do sometimes feel guilty about how much I dress. I have thought about it long and hard and I have decided that it is my problem and not hers so I don't see why I should burden her with anymore.

Katie

Another great gospel from the book of Isha. For those contemplating "the talk" & the needed follow-up to it, I would recommend very close attention to the details laid out in the thread. Every twist & angle in preparation for the talk & the post talk follow-up needs careful consideration , discipline & patience.

Thank you Katie for relating your experiences & advise as to the DADT reality. Very good advise offered. It is painful to read about the difficulties of a DADT relationship vis a vis the many here who have accepting & supportive spouses.

Paula Q, your words hit a grand slam as to my reality. For those who are contemplating " the talk", please digest Paula's epistle in your gameplan. Sports fans, not everyone gets to pass go & collect $ 200 after the talk. Yes, things can go horribly , horribly wrong. Everything about your life could be on the line should your spouse remain insistent that either one's cding get " exercised " or there will be a divorce; regardless of how much open communication or therapy is involved. Please spare me criticisms that it's my life to live & that one should just leave the relationship if the spouse is intolerant. Those who say that probably don't have mortgages, savings accounts, pensions, family structure & the future on the line.

Thank you Isha for your gospel. Thank you Katie for your epistle on DADT. God bless you PaulaQ for saying so eloquently the possible reality that I cannot express. I truly , truly truly wish everyone a successful reveal & post reveal journey. The road traveled is difficult & filled with challenges. To those with accepting & participating spouses, count your blessings daily. To those in any form of a DADT relationship, you have my wishes for peace in your life. For those in predicaments like mine, I pray that you can remain positive, focused & find some semblance of inner peace. We all live crazy cd lives. Cding impacts everyone around us. We all deserve & need peace... Mel

Isha dear,

Again you have written what should be a core post (yes, make it a stickie!) My big take on what you have written is that too often we see this as "me" and not often enough as "us". Shaedow's very touching post (yes, girl, you got to me with that one) really drove that home for me. It's funny, but both my wife and I agree that I'm much more communicative (and easy to talk to) when I'm in my comfy clothes. (Maybe that's in part due to my shedding that hide-bound, uptight male exterior?)

Paula, we've learned so much from your experience, and your post is a great addition to this conversation.

Thank you all for this thread.

Hugs,

Claire

well laid out Isha,

as DADT has been added to the equation i think i have something to share here, after my initial reveal it was agreed that DADT was the best way to move the relationship forward.
she new i dressed, she new i bought my own things, she new i was a member of some online group, we wished to keep it PRIVATE, and i was not to leave the house dressed...i moved all my things into a closet in our office, installed a lock so it stayed private......initially i think she agreed to this as a comfort for the "now" and i knew it would not work for me in the long term, but neither of us had packed our bags, autopilot for the time being....

so after our arraignment went on their were needs/wants i wished to pursue and nothing was going to be done on the sly, i had to talk/express my wishes and concerns, a dialogue needed to happen, almost as difficult as the initial reveal but it was done,(help from support of members) made my point of why, (no more hidden truths, no assumptions) and discussed the things i wished to do....i cut the conversation short as the reception was cold....and made the case for the rest at another time....so were past DADT....it can happen

as for communication i have three letters in my closet with explanations for family members, reassurances for my wife along with a flash drive with a folder of copied threads and a folder with my photos....so communication will be eternal....

these may have been touched upon but i made a list....

do's : reassure you SO that in no way is CDing caused by something they did or did'nt do.
do: plan for the worst so your ready with the difficulties should you receive they're negative reaction.
dont's : conversation is important but dont push beyond the SOs comfort level, if they become agitated/unreceptive finish up what has been discussed / agreed upon and save any more concerns for another time. (they may chose to not initiate in the future, so chose a time when to breach the subject carefully)
dont : assume they will get on board with open arms and take it all in stride, it will most likely be a work in progress.
dont: assume that DADT means ANYTHING GOES cause they do not want to know, this will most likely not go well.

the best analogy i can think of for our SOs is the old western one "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink"
so you can give your SOs all the pertinent information you can gather together, present it, reassure them, maybe type it out and leave it with them in letter form if your not comfortable discussing your thoughts , but the ultimate acceptance is up to them, you cant force it, you can just try to be a better composer of the information you wish to share....

Thank you for a great post, and thank you all for the insight shared.
I have only recently come out to my wife, after 28 years, and he information I have gained from the post has been invaluable in the approach I have taken in communicating with her. And I honestly believe that the positive outcome I am experiencing is solely due to me following the advice given.
Again Thank You All
Dianne

One of the main reasons why I am on this forum Dianne is because I wish to be able to keep my marriage intact, but not only that but continue to make it a good marriage and an even better one. Being a CDer though is a big challenge to marriage generally, not always for some, but generally it is, and is for my marriage. Many have offered great advice because they and I have all been there. We know what we have done right, what we have done wrong.... (even lil of perfect me has goofed on occasions) but with such great advice, only know that it is for additional insight, to help consider things you may not, or not consider things you may be considering. Ultimately, your marriage and how it all works for you and your wife is unique to you. There are some very accepting GG's here in many ways, but there are certain things they may not find easy that my wife does, and vice versa. My wife is actually more ok with my general femininity (she does have limits....) than what many accepting GG's who can see their partners dress, or participate and go out with them. Take life as it comes to you.

As a GG I would like to throw in something the OP missed. Before you can have communication you have to have understanding.

What strikes many GGs about your reveal is complete shock followed by the devastation to their self-esteem and sexuality. Rebuilding herself as to what your new identity makes her can take years for many women. During this time there is no opportunity for meaningful communication. You want to talk wigs and makeup; she wants to be able to leave the house knowing there is a relationship to come back to at the end of the day that involves the man she married. Until education takes hold she can have no meaningful response to your desire for her to offer makeup advice or accompany you out while dressed!

She cannot quantify your desire to be considered as another woman in the relationship and until you can offer reassurances about your future together (which does not include you being her girlfriend!) you are both on very sticky ground.

The point at which many women are able to reconsider their response is when children become independent. The biggest difficulty then is your justification for the time spent and the fact that cross-dressing is not a good spectator sport for your SO: all the enjoyment is on your side.

Communication is a two-way street. In my relationship it is the cder who operates DADT! While you may consider an accepting SO convenient have you ever stopped to think what it cost her along the way? Yes, being the man for her when she needs you is a good idea, but how many of you actually manage even that?

If your SO is at the stage of having to re-build her self-esteem and stop questioning her own sexuality, maybe you are the one in need of some education......

Thanks for your post Allsteamedup.

It helps me to understand why my wife hasn't been open to communications for these last couple of years. I am aware that it would be a time of adjustment for her and I have tried to give her this space by not constantly raising the subject. I'm of the opinion that when she is ready she will open up communications.. I have kept my CDing out of site during this period and have continued to act in exactly the same way towards her as I have always done. In someways it's as if the conversation never happened. I appreciate that the crunch time will probably be when the children are independent as at the moment they take up so much of our time as a couple.

Katie

Isha:

This is one of the great threads worth well beyond the price of admission. I have nothing to add other than my full endorsement of all the views expressed by the contributors to the thread. The insights so honestly and unselfishly shared by fellow members based on their own real experiences is testament to the supportive community we're all part of here. This one's a keeper!

Hi

I've been thinking about Allsteamedup's comments an trying to put it into a perspective that I might understand.

The best I can come up with is:

Your wife has an affair. After a long conversation and much soul searching you decide to forgive her and make a go of your marriage. It will take time to come to terms with what has happened, you feel sick to the stomach, betrayed and you'll need to rebuild your self esteem. You know that time is great healer and life needs to return to normal for you to feel confident again. What you don't want is your SO continually referring to her ex-lover, how he did this or that. How he made her feel great etc. That would not only be insensitive but could destroy any future hope for the marriage. If you want to know any details, such as why, when etc you'll ask but you want her to keep quite about it.

Is that how many of our SO feel? If it is then I think that many of us could relate to that. That's why a DADT relationship can work. It allows time for her to heal in her own time. I don't think you need to communicate about your CDing unless asked. What you do need to do is reassure her that you are still the man she married, make her feel loved and that she is special to you. That communication is great and will help to build those bridges.


Katie.

Good solid advice, and I enjoyed your touches of humour. I agree with Sandra that this thread should be kept and I think it should be made readily accessible to new members, who often need pointers on when/how/why to tell their SOs.

Good on ya.

I echo many of these thoughts in my "tips to an SO acceptance thread". Made a sticky a long time ago. I think both that and this should be stickies and live on for forever as solid advice. People often come to this forum because shit just hit the fan, or they are too afraid of what to tell their SO's.

Communication is the key to everything. Not just talking about CDing. When there is a communication breakdown in the relationship, relationships cannot stay strong. They falter and wave. Needs, wants, desires, fears, issues, successes, all need to be communicated to your partner.

If the only time you ever sit down and have a thought out talk, is to talk about CDing, then there is a communication breakdown in all other aspects of life.

I often wonder when people haves these "coming out sessions" with their SO's, if this is the first time that they have sat down and had an important conversation with their SO of this nature. This alone would startle a SO, (why is this happening now, this sit down is so serious, etc etc). Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenie

Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

---

What you say here is probably true, although in my case, my wife and I had been together 17 years of marriage, and we had resolved many serious problems together, and had had many, many very serious talks. Our communication was quite good, except for this one topic...

I agree there are always deviations. There are women who wont be able to handle the CD/Trans thing at all, no matter how much you communicate about it. But then you need to look at the fact that, you had been married for X amount of years and then "suprise!" I changed my identity. When a Cder or trans person changes their identity, if their SO does not therin want their identity changed as well, it doesn't matter how much you communicate. I am okay with lucas being a CDer, if he decided he needed to transition, I honestly could say that is something I would not be okay with, and no amount of conversation in the world could change the fact that I didn't want to be married to a trans woman. I think Ishas thread is CD specific though. So I will try to keep it to that. :)

Hi Greenie,

Yup it was more related to CDing but the same can applied to those who plan to transition or are not sure when they first come out. I did kind of touch on the subject near the end of my post in that "sometimes change is a bridge too far which the SO or CDer cannot cross" I think at this juncture the communication irrespective of how much effort you want to put into it, will break down. My wife and I have this conversation often as that is the bridge she will not cross. We would remain friends but our relationship as husband and wife would cease at that point . . . Nope, not planning to transition, we just like to cover our bases so we have a lot of "what if" conversations.

Hugs

Isha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenie

I am okay with lucas being a CDer, if he decided he needed to transition, I honestly could say that is something I would not be okay with, and no amount of conversation in the world could change the fact that I didn't want to be married to a trans woman.

---

One of the most surprising things I've learned about myself as a woman* was when I realized that I couldn't stay with a CD or MtF transitioning partner. I'd be nice about it, I hope, but long term it wouldn't work and I know that.

Of course the chances I'd get surprised by something like that are basically zero, so its not a fair comparison.

_{* assuming anyone thinks I'm actually a woman. Some weeks, like this last one, that seems doubtful.}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenie

If the only time you ever sit down and have a thought out talk, is to talk about CDing, then there is a communication breakdown in all other aspects of life.

I often wonder when people haves these "coming out sessions" with their SO's, if this is the first time that they have sat down and had an important conversation with their SO of this nature. This alone would startle a SO, (why is this happening now, this sit down is so serious, etc etc). Where as I think people who are succsessful have been having these hard conversations about other topics for a long time, and this is just another one added to the bunch.

---

Following this line, it seems to me that the communication issues combine with or exacerbate ingrained behaviors and attitudes that can be toxic in a relationship. In a relationship where issues are argued or ignored to avoid conflict, or where marriage where rigid belief systems are the main binding force between partners, the introduction of a conversation on gender acquires explosive potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

People need to be very careful about the question "will you transition?" You can really only give an honest answer about what you'll do now. The future is often very difficult to know with any precision.

---

I strongly identify with that. Two years ago, I would have sworn up and down I'd never transition, and yet here I am a year into the process.

The fact is that life can often be surprising, and a crisis in your life can trigger all sorts of repressed feelings. In my case, I think the death of my father a couple of years ago hit me really hard and made me realize I had to live the rest of my life trying to be happy and authentic.

Before you can be honest with your SO, you need to be honest with yourself. Search your innermost feelings and don't flinch if you find something that scares you. It will eventually bubble to the surface and delaying the truth does no-one any favours.

The rest of Paula's post is very good. Expect the best, but prepare for the worst.

Continuing conversation on both sides is extremely important. My wife accepted my dressing from the start and has encouraged me. Because I was very open with her as to all aspects of my dressing we have become a lot closer. She now knows that I want to retain my male parts and she also realizes how much I enjoy dressing. My wife is a strong confident woman and because of our many conversations she has learned that when I am dressed I am a lot more submissive. She enjoys her role being dominant and encourages me to be the wife. For these reasons I am now dressed almost all the time. Even when I wear men’s clothing they are referred to as tomboy thinks. I wear women’s panties and a bra no matter how I am dressed. We go shopping together and in public she always uses my female name. She asked me to agree that she could tell anyone she chose about my dressing and that I am submissive to her. I feel that I’m the luckiest girl in the world to have such a loving wife and we both enjoy what I have become.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by allsteamedup

What strikes many GGs about your reveal is complete shock followed by the devastation to their self-esteem and sexuality. Rebuilding herself as to what your new identity makes her can take years for many women. During this time there is no opportunity for meaningful communication.

---

I very much agree that the reveal is typically going to be a complete shock for a majority of GG's, especially if it has been many years into a relationship and or marriage. While a woman's self esteem may be hit hard, or devastated as you say, that is part of the woman who may have self esteem issues in the 1st place, or HOW a CDer reveals and what they do after the reveal.

Quote:

---

During this time there is no opportunity for meaningful communication. You want to talk wigs and makeup; she wants to be able to leave the house knowing there is a relationship to come back to at the end of the day that involves the man she married. Until education takes hold she can have no meaningful response to your desire for her to offer makeup advice or accompany you out while dressed!

---

Even though it is one solid paragraph, I wanted to separately respond to the latter section of the paragraph. I believe there is always time for meaningful communication. Without communication, how is either party going to become further educated as to how the needs or desires are for each other? What my CDing is, and what someone elses is can be two entirely different things, or mean two entirely different things for the individual. For some, it is highly sexual and only sexual, for others, there isn't a sexual component at all. Good communication especially in the early times after a reveal are of the utmost importance for a relationship and or marriage to survive.

Quote:

---

She cannot quantify your desire to be considered as another woman in the relationship and until you can offer reassurances about your future together (which does not include you being her girlfriend!) you are both on very sticky ground.

---

Who says that every CDer is looking to be another woman in the relationship? While that may be the case for some, that was a broad stroke you were putting on CDers. A committed relationship can only have basic reassurances of its future, regardless of CDing or any other issue, or life itself for that matter. A relationship of any kind is so because two people are harmonious together. Through life we change. Not just because of CDing, but aging, different employment, different life situations, kids growing up and going out on their own, life is always evolving. The best I can ever tell my wife is that I love her with all my heart, and I always will. That I hope that it continues this way for the rest of our lives and I will strive to keep things going if I can. She can offer the same. Will it happen? Hopefully. Sometimes it does happen. 50% of the time marriages dissolve and it doesn't happen. 95+% of the time CDing is not an issue that dissolves a marriage.

Quote:

---

Communication is a two-way street. In my relationship it is the cder who operates DADT! While you may consider an accepting SO convenient have you ever stopped to think what it cost her along the way? Yes, being the man for her when she needs you is a good idea, but how many of you actually manage even that?

If your SO is at the stage of having to re-build her self-esteem and stop questioning her own sexuality, maybe you are the one in need of some education......

---

CDing not withstanding, there are a lot of issues in my marriage that would be of convenience if my wife was more of this or that, less of that and this, and for her, the same would apply to me. What has it cost either of my wife and I to adapt to each other? Time, effort, understanding... compromise, sacrifice.... and that is all without CDing. The benefits of both of us offering this to each other are worth the rewards we bring each other, in the long run.

allsteamedup, I can only tell you of my situation. Yes, it was a shock to my wife when I told her of my desires to CD. I was not an active CDer for the most part prior, but I always wanted to be. I am on the feminine side period. I do not have a masculine type of job.... (labor, construction, trucking etc etc) I am not and never have been a "masculine man" So, while the dressing issue was a shock, for her, there has been no great transformation of me as a person. I have no other identity. I don't have a female name to identify with. Not that I couldn't, it just isn't something I need.

Now that can go both ways- feminine to some extent all the time, or a split personality type of situation. Some women are ok with both, or neither, or one or the other. Maybe it puts me further down the TG road than some, maybe not, who knows, or maybe I am just an individual born male but feminine which is more common among females to be feminine.

My wife does not hate all of my femininity. In fact some of it she does like, and uses even. I am always the one to write on a sympathy card or pick one out, cards in general actually. She often asks my advice on how to sooth a friend in need or a family member. Why? because I connect on a level most men don't. That doesn't make me a female, just feminine in those aspects. What I wear on my time, feminine style clothing.... Is it difficult for her, absolutely. So are other aspects of me and there are difficulties I need to deal with on her end.

She chooses to look at my transgender ism as a challenge or obstacle like any other obstacle that a relationship faces. I offer her things she never has had in any other relationship. Love, compassion, caring, understanding, attention to detail, intuitiveness. Men have these qualities too, but typically in lesser amounts than women. She respects me with my dressing and feminine issues, even though they are difficult for her, and I respect her by not putting it up in front of her. I do not dress in her presence which is what she wants. I oblige this. It is a compromise on my part that I limit my dressing. I cannot limit my feminine nature however, but I do not just throw it in her face and say deal with it. Some CDers may do this, but reading on here, most don't.

We all can benefit from further education, it is a lifetime thing. Life changes us all. While difficult at times for the both of us, it has worked for so far 2 and a half years. Will it continue? I hope so, both she and I are going to try. No guarantee of success. What is most important is that it is working now and our lives together are better than they would be apart.