What Do They Think

Your thoughts from your encounters, knowledge from reading and interacting and whatever experiences you might have had. I'm trying to understand mainly the acceptance factor of women when they see males wearing female clothing or wanting to. Teenagers get off on seeing a CD and laughing and making fun even though we all know how crazy they can dress. As posted on this forum one woman in her early twenties (just out of her teens) was just fine with her new boyfriend wearing panties and was very much interested in helping him shop for girl clothes, makeup, etc. Another post that's presently on here tells how a CD's wife in her forties is also accepting, like it doesn't turn me off or matter one little bit what you wear. Then theirs the fifties and sixties, what do they think. If women of any age sees a man in the grocery store or where ever in clearly some piece or pieces of women clothing what do they think. Have females accepted that some men wear female clothing and it might be on the rise rather than seeing it once in a life time. Help me try to understand what women think when they see a male wearing female clothing.

What do women think when they see a male wearing female clothing? They think he is gay or wants to become a woman. That's what the majority of people (male or female) think.

You can also reverse that and think what do you think when you see a woman in men's attire. I've seen them in men's work clothes to wearing men's suits. I don't give a rats rear what they wear but some in our society do. Remember these words are from a guy that not out yet because of location and family and so on.

Most people think nothing seeing women in men's styled clothing.

Without a doubt there is a double standard when it comes to what men and women wear, women wear pretty much whatever they want and no one cares. However a man in a skirt who's presenting as a man and he's a freak.
For me to wear the women's styles it just makes sense to present as a women so I can bend and not be seen so much as a man or freak

I'll suggest their thoughts are not based on gender, age, or any other demographic. Their thoughts are as diverse as the people themselves. If you're looking for a proven, statistical, absolute measurement...fergetaboutit. :)


Karen

Hi Deebra, The last part of your question can have a million different answers, Depending on how many:daydreaming: people you ask.

there's no knowing, and it does not matter what "they" think anyway.
99% of the time they also think they are the centre of the world and the horrible truth is no-one is paying attention.
In fact the more outrageous you are, the less hidden you are, the more accepted, the more "not even see" you get. Paradoxical but true imho.

what do people think? How long do you want the bridge? Everyone thinks differently

Deebra, you cannot generalize. I don't think there is such a thing as "what most women think" because our population is so very diverse and also what women think is influenced by how well they know the CDer or how much impact the CDer has on the woman's life, and also the degree of your CDing.

• The women you do not know and run into while out dressed: some women will approve to varying degrees, some won't to varying degrees, and some just won't care, they'll have a "whatever" attitude to seeing men whom they do not know dress like a woman. Will these women want to get to know you better? That depends on their age, background, open-mindedness, and many other factors.
  
  
• The women you do know: again, it depends on whether they are open-minded or not. It depends on how much they like you. People who like you a lot might be more open-minded than people who don't, again depending on how liberal or conservative are their views of gender and sexual variance and also the type of relationship have with you, and the degree of your CDing.
  
  
• Women on dating sites: if you dress as a woman in your profile, some women will pass by and not want to contact you, some women will see something else in your profile they might think is worth getting to know, and some women will be intrigued just because you're a CDer.

Also, all of the above is influenced by what you mean, exactly, by "wearing female clothing or wanting to". Are you just talking about a pair or panties under male clothes and/or a pair of women's jeans and Tshirt but are presenting as a male, or are you thinking feminine outfit with breast forms, shoes, wig, makeup, etc. If a woman has more negative views than positive ones about CDers, she will likely be more OK with you presenting as a male and wearing panties or a pair of women's jeans than dressing in the full regalia. And in the "wanting to" part of your statement, the disapproving women are more OK with you "wanting to" (and dressing when they are not around), than actually wearing the clothes around them. But, if a woman does approve, then often it's a question of how much and how often. More women will be OK with occasional dressing than full time.

Or, if you're thinking more along the lines of dressing in the bedroom as a kink while appearing as a male outside the bedroom, I think that a lot of women are open to that but again, this depends on many factors including how much they like you, their background, their libido and whether or not they see the CDing as just a harmless bedroom kink vs. something deeper.


To every one, re women wearing men's clothes:
Please stop imagining, in your mind's eye, the stereotypical butch lesbian who might in fact wear men's clothes purchased in men's stores. She does not represent the vast majority of women. Instead, look around at what the women you see every day are wearing. Look at your neighbor. Look at women at the mall and the grocery stores. Look at the women you work with at your company's summer picnic. Examine their clothes and tell me if you think they bought them in men's stores. Next, tell me how you know that their clothes were not bought in men's stores. This is how you will learn that there is a difference between women's casual clothes and men's clothes. :p

I don't know what they think. And it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what they do. As long as they're polite and call me "ma'am" I'm happy.

Good answer ReineD, pamela7, love your second sentence!!!!!!!!!!!

No way of knowing unless you ask them.
Personally I could care less what people think of me or how I dress.

We tend to worry of what others think way too much. We worry about it and frankly it doesn't matter. What you think of yourself is what matters. With that said, what others think is really none of our business unless it's said directly to us.
Just be you and to hades with the the rest.

It does matter because some people will give us grief for dressing like a woman. Some people will beat us up. Crossdressers and transsexuals (the public doesn't know the difference) have even been killed for dressing like a woman.

It is a mistake to think that nobody cares. Some people do and in a negative way.

Generally I find most average women/girls find it fine if the guy is just a friend or an acquaintance, when emotions get attached then it is a different kettle of fish.
The ones who find it strange or wrong in my opinion are usually quite religious, elderly or both

The common thought of a man dressed up as a woman, by the general public, is that he is gay and/or wants a sex-change.
I've had positive experiences from a lady-friend I showed pictures of me dressed up.
I've also had great experiences from SA's when out en femme, I'm hoping that it was from being so passable. At one store some a group of young people came in. I was hoping they wouldn't make their way to where I was trying on heels whilst dressed up. However, they eventually did and seemingly didn't notice me.
:)

This is what is on television where my wife is from. The individual on the left is a major TV talk show host there and he crossdresses or dresses genderqueer all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PBBp34em2s Some cultures are more accepting than others.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...To every one, re women wearing men's clothes:
Please stop imagining, in your mind's eye, the stereotypical butch lesbian who might in fact wear men's clothes purchased in men's stores. She does not represent the vast majority of women. Instead, look around at what the women you see every day are wearing. Look at your neighbor. Look at women at the mall and the grocery stores. Look at the women you work with at your company's summer picnic. Examine their clothes and tell me if you think they bought them in men's stores. Next, tell me how you know that their clothes were not bought in men's stores. This is how you will learn that there is a difference between women's casual clothes and men's clothes... :p

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I know that this is a pet peeve of yours, Reine, and one that you've expressed on numerous occasions and in various other posts. Yes, we get it - the "men's" clothes that most women happily wear are are feminized versions of the male equivalent, allowing for the different body proportions that women have and sometimes specifically tailored to be form-fitting and to hug the curves that some might possess. But it doesn't address the question of why the fascination with male-inspired clothing when the real deal is so bland and boring compared to the choices they have available to them amongst their traditionally female wardrobes.

Why this constant reference to "menswear", "the boyfriend jacket", "boy shorts", "boy cut jeans", and "borrowed from the boys" etc., as though fashion inspired by what men typically wear is somehow aspirational and the Holy Grail of avant-garde fashion? The equivalent really doesn't exist on the male side, and I have yet to see kilts being advertised to Scotsmen on the basis of having a style "borrowed from the girls" to somehow make them must-have items of clothing.

I think the real answer is that we crossdressers still tend to fetishize female clothing as being the forbidden fruit that society typically denies us through peer pressure, so wearing these items gives us a high because it is so deliciously subversive and allows us to thumb our noses at convention, even if done in secret. And of course, the secondary "rush" is the omnipresent risk of potentially being "caught" in the act at any moment, which the adrenalin junkies among us really get off on.

For women, there is little of that sexual stimulation involved in wearing male-inspired clothing. For them, it's all about "empowerment", and continuing to break down the walls of whatever male bastions still exist. Of course, the irony here lies in the way that more and more transgender male models are successfully infiltrating the female fashion scene these days, and how some of the TG beauty pageants (especially those in Thailand and the Philippines) are starting to rival the more traditional Miss Universe-style pageants. And now, the gals are starting to cry out "no fair" when they see the type of entitlement which they were always used to slowly beginning to erode away...

What's good for the goose... ;)

Teenagers in a mob can be the worst, for anybody. Young, old, straight, gay, CD, fashion victim, anybody. Not all, it depends on how well they were brought up, and how much their own particular situation makes them desire the approval of the group. Some, growing number at least around here, are pretty good for the most part. For adults alcohol can make a big difference, but again, it depends on the individual, booze, reduces inhibitions and suppresses judgement, if you're not too inclined to be inhibited, and don't have much judgement normally, well........ Where you are in the world, how religious people are, how much they like poking their noses in to other peoples business, it all influences the behaviour and response. I feel fortunate myself, people are for the most part law abiding in this neck of the woods, the police are pretty much on the ball and pretty fair minded. I am pretty sure a noticeable percentage of those I interact with on a daily basis think I'm a least a little weird, but as long as I'm polite, do my job to the best of my ability, they just let me get on with it. I know a good number, I think a majority, approve, many have said so.

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Originally Posted by LeighR

However a man in a skirt who's presenting as a man and he's a freak.

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Haven't been called a freak yet, at least to my face. What they say amongst themselves is irrelevant, as long as my SO, my friends and family, and my employers don't have issues, then it's all good.

my wife agrees with alice that the first thought people have is that cd is gay and also with krisi wrt to safety. personally i am in there with pamela. as a good looking mature CD i feel confident in my look and feel that being older makes me more invisible. i have had only one less than wonderful interaction and while that was hurtful it was really a nothing thing. i really do not care what others think. i am who i am and proud of it
jennifer

I guess it really depends on the women.....most women i have met in public have been super kool...supportive even...i even met one in the womens bathroom who said "I love what you are doing" Girls come up to me alot en femme and show support or compliment...I only once heard a negative comment, and this came out in the vanilla world at a 4th of july fireworks show when one women utterd under her breath "Thats crazy"....but my question is 'Why do YOU care what other people ( complete strangers btw) think of YOU. The more visable we are, the easier it is for the next girl....so....your welcome xoxo

My wife is a Christian in hr mid sixties. She could not care less, bless her!

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

I know that this is a pet peeve of yours, Reine, and one that you've expressed on numerous occasions and in various other posts. Yes, we get it -

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I only bring it up when people before me have made the comments. I take it they just don't get it, so I'm trying to help. (You and others who have been here for awhile can skip that part of my post ... it's not meant for people who know better). :)

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

But it doesn't address the question of why the fascination with male-inspired clothing when the real deal is so bland and boring compared to the choices they have available to them amongst their traditionally female wardrobes.

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Because the clothes are more comfortable.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

Why this constant reference to "menswear", "the boyfriend jacket", "boy shorts", "boy cut jeans", and "borrowed from the boys" etc., as though fashion inspired by what men typically wear is somehow aspirational and the Holy Grail of avant-garde fashion?

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I don't really know, but I take it that "boyfriend's jacket" harkens back to the days when wearing a boyfriend's letter jacket or school ring indicated that a couple was going steady. It's a romantic notion, more for younger than older women. "Boy shorts" are named this way because the cut is closer to men's shorts than panties, and they are super comfortable to wear not to mention there are no panty lines, plus they don't ride up as much. "Boy cut jeans" (although, I see "boot cut jeans" not "boy cut jeans") may have to do with the fact that women have made huge inroads in what was traditionally considered men's work and educational fields, and this is reflected in changing styles. Women want to be taken seriously for their abilities, they no longer want to play the 1950s housewife role, and so maybe they are drawn to less "frilly" or "girly" things ... all while retaining their femininity of course. But women will buy jeans that look good on them, no matter what they're called. lol

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Originally Posted by deebra

Help me try to understand what women think when they see a male wearing female clothing.

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You want to know what ALL women think about a subject. Well, it's hard enough to get even two women to agree on something, much less all of them. Each woman is an individual. If you want a generalization, Krisi says it plain and simple:

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Originally Posted by Krisi

What do women think when they see a male wearing female clothing? They think he is gay or wants to become a woman. That's what the majority of people (male or female) think.

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The 'tolerance factor' is rising; most people will happily ignore you unless you get in their face. The 'acceptance factor' is still extremely low, however, as about 90% would rather not have you involved in their lives given the choice, it's just the 'not in my backyard' situation; they don't mean you any harm, but just would prefer not to have to deal with oh, for example, trying to explain you to their children. And exponentially lower is the 'attraction factor', i.e., how may women are turned on by a man who crossdresses. Does that help you understand? Or were you hoping that someone would tell you that now it's the 21st century, and 80% of women would love to date a crossdresser if they could only find one. Dream on, or wake up from your dream. Nothing's changed. Half the world will want to kill you if you wander around in a dress because it offends their god or themselves, the rest will just laugh, or smile politely and laugh later once out of earshot. You're in America, be happy that you only have first world problems to worry about. Now go on ebay, and pick out a lovely custom made dress that you can have made for less than $100 by some poor seamstress who works 24/7 over in China in a sweatshop.

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Originally Posted by LeighR

Without a doubt there is a double standard when it comes to what men and women wear, women wear pretty much whatever they want and no one cares. However a man in a skirt who's presenting as a man and he's a freak.
For me to wear the women's styles it just makes sense to present as a women so I can bend and not be seen so much as a man or freak

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I'm with Reine on this.
I dislike Leigh's argument. I've read many people over the years fall back on it to justify their crossdressing habit. And I think it's disingenuous in most cases (maybe not in Leigh's case. I don't want to pick on her. Just proving a point)

Women can wear whatever they want because they are not PRESENTING as a man. Women do not put fake hair on their chest, bind their boobs, and wear prosthetic male parts when they wear male-inspired clothing. (Drag kings, notwithstanding)

And that phrase that someone used in this thread... "male-inspired' is key.
Most of us girls here are not just wearing 'female-inspired' clothing, we are wearing clothing that was specifically created for the female form.

The problem with this argument is that we're not looking at other factors.

MY theory is that women can wear men's clothing because, culturally speaking, male clothing connotes power. When we see a super model wearing a man's suit, and smoking a cigar (yet with perfect makeup and hair), it's a statement about power, and how women (in general) don't have it. "But isn't it cute how she wants to pretend that she can play with the big boys." I think that scenario is equivalent to seeing that one kid at Thanksgiving sitting at the grown-ups table, and you just think it's adorable.

The obverse of this is that female clothing connotes non-male-power. There IS power in feminine clothing. But it's not seen in the same league as male power. It's seen as soft, perhaps subservient. It's distinctly a lower form of status/power in most people's eyes. And why would a man want to lower his status? (let's cop to it, guys. By virtue of merely being seen as male, we are imbued to have power and status in a way that nearly all women will never have. And you KNOW it too. You know how I know? Because damned few of us are willing to give UP that higher status. We are closeted. It's one thing to be online and known and perceived as a female persona. It's comparatively safe here. But would we want our secret female identity known in our real world?.... to be perceived as anything less than male? Maybe not a macho man.... But there are many perks to being a guy that most of us don't like to admit.)

Leigh, I think that in order for us to wear female clothes in public there has to be a change in the way women's clothing is perceived. And designers would have to design 'female-inspired' clothing for men. I don't really see that coming down the pipeline. I think attitudes have to change first about what is already happening in the T-world. And then designers will begin to create clothing that slowly begins to blur those lines.

The disingenuous part of the argument is that it implies that "if only people would accept men wearing women's clothing, I would do it all the time." But, we crossdressing guys don't do that. Oh sure, there are some who underdress. But that is still HIDING. I don't see CDer guys learning how to sew and creating our own 'female-inspired' clothing. Would it really be that difficult to find SOME element of female clothing and attach it to male clothing and creating a new hybrid? A new kind of skort, perhaps.

But no, we don't do that. We just take what is out there and bemoan that society let's women get away with it, and we can't.
But the Truth is, we do it because we see women's clothing as the gateway to feminine power. We see it as sexy. We see ourselves as having different power from the male side, temporarily free from the male side. It's a highly taboo activity. And when we have private time to explore that side, most of us feel good somehow. Perhaps temporarily... but we get some sort of rush out of it, or we wouldn't come back to it. That's the Truth.

So when someone uses that argument... I always roll my eyes, and wish they would be honest...
"I dress because I get off on it!"
I wonder if wearing female-inspired clothes would be a much fun to wear if it wasn't taboo any longer.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

What do women think when they see a male wearing female clothing? They think he is gay or wants to become a woman. That's what the majority of people (male or female) think.

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Hell, we think that too. Well, some of us do. It's an initial reaction.

I think most GGs don't care for CDing, particularly wives, because they think they are being replaced. My wife certainly thinks that. She sees Gail as "the other woman". They might think that they are no longer needed by the husband. And can you blame them? How would you feel if your S.O. said she wanted to wear jeans and a tshirt, and wanted to work on the car or drink beer, watch football and fart? It would be a very strange and probably unwelcome dynamic for most of us.

I often wonder if crossdressing and presenting as female is not the big COMPLIMENT we claim it to be as much as a prideful, boasting insult to women.
"Look at me! I can do this better than you."

So, to the OP, I've seen this question before... and always think that it's really kind of a put-down to women, in the vein of "Women's brains are incomprehensible to me. What do women want?"
More to the point.... I think your question really comes down to... "Why don't women dig this as much as I do? They spend so much time in front of the mirror, and shopping for clothes, and read the fashion magazines.... What difference does it make if I do all that stuff too?"

I think that if we CDing guys really want to pay a compliment to women, then we must strive to not only try to look like them, but try to think/act like them as well.
Meaning: compassion, caring, thoughtful, observant, and use our words to truly articulate and communicate our meaning.

G

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Originally Posted by gailbridges

I often wonder if crossdressing and presenting as female is not the big COMPLIMENT we claim it to be as much as a prideful, boasting insult to women.
"Look at me! I can do this better than you."

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Yes, especially the crossdressers wearing the 6" heels and miniskirts.

None of us know exactly why we do this, it's not like fixing a car where there is a direct cause and effect, but I think that may be the reason for some of us.

krisi probably nailed it....it is what my wife says, it what she says society says....my hope is they see me as a person with a unique identity that just wants to get through life happy and unburdened.... (maybe also normal) is that too much?

jennifer

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Originally Posted by gailbridges

I think that if we CDing guys really want to pay a compliment to women, then we must strive to not only try to look like them, but try to think/act like them as well.
Meaning: compassion, caring, thoughtful, observant, and use our words to truly articulate and communicate our meaning.
G

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I think if we "CDing guys" really want to compliment a woman we would acknowledge to them (and to ourselves) that CDing or thinking and/or acting like we perceive a woman would, does not in any way make us a woman. (This does not apply to transsexuals, of course.) You want to compliment a woman? Say or do something nice for her. Don't pretend to be her.

I'm wondering just what is a "trans center" anyway? :)