The Changing Values of Society

This post is part 2 of my reply to my "femininity and gender identity" thread. I was born in the late 1930's before the outbreak of the second world war. Society and its values were much different in those days. Women almost always wore some form of a skirt or dress. Shorts were worn only by little boys or people engaged in certain sports. But society's values cover far more than the clothing we wear. Views on marriage, child bearing, family, gender, racial equality and many more issues were all much different than we are witnessing today. Almost all of the changes that have taken place have been accompanied by an educating of the public toward acceptance of the new values, and the same has taken place regardless of whether the change was a loosening of old restrictions or the imposition of newer ones. The media, the schools, the politicians, the churches and then once the ball got rolling, the people themselves have all played a part in bringing about the changing attitudes toward a myriad of different issues. However, there remains one significant area which has not witnessed this same educating of the public toward acceptance, despite a great deal of press and the enacting of changes in the various civil rights laws. I am referring to crossdressing.

Some of the changes that have taken place during my lifetime that are now accepted as more or less the norm have been:

Young people living together prior to marriage to ensure compatibility.

Single motherhood, whether planned, accidental, adoption or clinically.

Recognition of homosexuality as a legitimate sexuality, and the allowance of same sex marriage.

Racial, gender, sexual and people with disabilities equality.

Negative attitudes toward smoking in public, indoors etc.

Negative attitudes toward drinking and driving, or driving while distracted by anything.

I could go on, but I use the above cases to show how peoples' thinking has been drastically changed in a relatively short time period. We now have transgender rights tacked on to sexuality rights provisions in the civil rights legislation of most jurisdictions. But has there been the same degree of public and media attention given to ensuring the acceptance by the people of these changes? There is a level of acceptance, without any accompanying understanding by either the media or the public of what those rights mean and to whom they apply. In the minds of most people, it would appear to mean men who wish to be women, whether it is achieved by means of surgery or not. Such men should be protected against things like employment and housing discrimination. Lost in the whole mess is any understanding of crossdressing for reasons totally unrelated to TS or extreme cases of TG. Adding to the lack of understanding are the opinions of "experts" like Blanchard who toss around terms like fetishistic transvestism. Crossdressing is left to appear to the general public to be a perversion and an anti-social behaviour that is destructive to families and relationships. We here understand what is meant by the recent thread about "only a crossdresser", but few outside of our community understand. I believe that there is a tendency among such crossdressers to feel marginalized and they are returning to the privacy of their closets. Where are the efforts of the media and other community leaders to champion the cause of bringing respectability to the activity of crossdressing. The needs of crossdressers are quite different than the needs of the people who are being protected now by the various LGBT rights laws. Crossdressers are seldom in a situation where such rights would be of benefit to them.

Veronica

Victoria, I agree that the LBGT laws do not benefit us. Even at the Austin pride, I was one of the very few crossdressers there. Also, yes most people think it is a mental issue. Perhaps it is, yet many of us knows a bit why we are crossdressers. I do go out with my SO and enjoy an entire day out there with her in a conservative area. I do think I pass okay and get called mam by everybody when out. But still I know it is viewed strangely. I do not see that changing for a long time. Our current society is not tolerant of people that try to change their views, even if we try to stay to ourselves.

I agree we as crossdreses don't completely fit those in the LGBT community but some things do help since I do feel more comfortable being out even if I'm read they may just think I'm in transition and even if that's not the case I think it makes it eaiser to shop and be out in the world for sure

Veronica, i think we are in the process of this change now, though i feel we are still in the early part of this process. Cj coming out is a milestone, but very much just the beginning. The civil rights movement and process of pushing to stop racial discrimination took many generations and although things are much better than they were, this process is not over. Same with the movement for womens rights. In both of these movements for the most part it wasnt outside leaders pushing for these changes (at least not early on) it was leaders from minority groups and women bringing this about. The media initially didnt favor or support these groups either. Public/ political/ media etc support was something that came slowly over time and was a result of these women and minorities being out on the front lines educating and challenging the discriminatory views and not without suffering great hardship and physical abuse in the process. Some of the public brutalities they suffered i think also helped the public over time see and feel that the suffering imposed on these groups was wrong.

In the tg community cj is basically the first major high profile person to bring us out to the world like never before, but she is only one person. As far as specifically cders theres jaden smith but i cant think of too many others and it hasnt been that high profile neccessarily. Obama has recently hired a tg staff person at the whitehouse which is huge but the only way real change is going to happen is if WE come out together and support each other as a movement and make it happen. Thats when more outsiders will start to change thier thinking and slowly start to support it. Imagine if MLK marched in the streets with nobody walking with him and supporting him. What if they all decided to stay home. Something we all including myself should think about. I know in hind sight the civil rights movement and womens movement changes seem to have happened fast, but im sure for those fighting the fight and paving the way it took forever.

Also the LGB folks have had quite a head start on us and so naturally they're much further down the road than us.

Veronica, I do so relate. I grew up in the 50's and early 60's. Our personal outlook and life's expectations were formed from the role models of our relatives. Fathers,uncles, and actors were our primary role models. There was no room for any other views. Gender expression was set in stone and woe be the one that trespassed the norms. I sometime envy the younger generations for having more freedom. That is not to say that there is a smooth ride all the time. There will always be idiots wishing to impose their narrow views on others. As I get older, going out fully dressed holds little appeal to me. I suppose that is one reason I don't come here that often. Everyone will find their on self-satisfaction in how they express themselves. Whew, I have never been this long winded. Thanks for letting a very mature lady vent. L

Although I am a later baby boomer, I have seen changes as you have stated and believe the internet and the modern media have helped in some way although miniscule but that acceptance by society is as slow coming as glacial movement. I try to go out dressed as often as possible and be seen, because if we are out of sight we are out of mind and easily passed over and open to ridicule which keeps many in the closet. I understand why many are in the closet due to jobs, family, etc.. I have had my share of abuse from the public but it seems to be lessening as I move forward and hopefully open eyes to our "needs".

Changes in the past were kind of like "snail mail" as that is all we had. Now with the Internet, word gets out instantly and changes are much quicker. :)

I think the big challenge we face is our own privacy, the segregation that was once part of America was hard fought and eventually over turned, especially when people looked and realised they were people too, they had differences but many more similarities. African American people had to go to work, school and wherever else as African Americans, they couldn't decide to just change colour because it wouldn't be accepted, likewise with women fighting for equality as women.

Then there is us, the non transsexual transgendered people who can choose to hide and very often do, when the going gets tough the shirt and trousers reappear, we can't expect society to instantly accept us when so few understand us, I'm also not saying this from a high and mighty point, I rarely go out in public myself, but I have begun the process of telling my friends and family that "hey I'm different but if you could offer a little support or respect things will be fine"

The transsexual community has their own leaders such as laverne cox who do their best to get the spotlight out there but they are too few, and it doesn't cover the range of gender fluid, cross dresser etc etc yet we can coast along on their struggle for recognition.
Think of yourselves as warriors for the cause and unless we all turn up we can't fight effectively, every person we tell who supports us will hopefully go on to raise their kids as supportive like we would to ours and in time it can be acknowledged

Sarah x

In spite of the increased acceptance of homosexuality, 'masculinity' is still tenaciously guarded by many and, although the boundary lines between what is 'masculine' and what is 'feminine' have shifted, there is still a strong feeling that a large part of what makes men men and women women is inviolate - that the line should not be crossed. We have largely come to terms with the existence of gay men (though the effeminate stereotype still holds), but cross-dressers and transgender people are right up against the edge of it at the moment. It will take time to change, but I think it will happen eventually. This sort of change usually proceeds at generational time scales, meaning it's a matter of waiting until the older people and their views of morality and gender die off. Feminism is also helping in the struggle against 'toxic masculinity'. I'm going to guess that CD/trans people will be fairly widely tolerated, if not accepted, within the next 40-60 years and the view of what is or isn't considered 'masculine' behaviour will have changed to match.

It's nice to have you back with us with a 'bang' Veronica... Seems like you've been bottling up these thoughts for the couple of years away from us... ;)

What you say in the first part of your post is all fairly accurate for most of western society - and very much for the English speaking part of that (btw - I include the Aussies and Kiwis in 'western' - even though they are very south and east... :)). What has driven those significant changes are the number of people involved. Gender - about 50% of the population; racial or ethnicity issues - around 20-25% in the US, about 10% in the UK; smoking - about 20% in both UK and USA, down from 40-50% 50 years ago... Society reflects trends and values of large groups and sadly, I don't think either TS, TG or CD forms a large enough opinion block to be reflected much on society as a whole. The general liberalisation of views regarding sexuality in the past 50 years has probably helped us more than anything since society is now much more tolerant of outliers whether in a gender or perceived sexual way.

I would like to address your final few points and make some comments on these.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veronica27

Crossdressing is left to appear to the general public to be a perversion and an anti-social behaviour that is destructive to families and relationships. We here understand what is meant by the recent thread about "only a crossdresser", but few outside of our community understand. I believe that there is a tendency among such crossdressers to feel marginalized and they are returning to the privacy of their closets. Where are the efforts of the media and other community leaders to champion the cause of bringing respectability to the activity of crossdressing. The needs of crossdressers are quite different than the needs of the people who are being protected now by the various LGBT rights laws. Crossdressers are seldom in a situation where such rights would be of benefit to them.

---

My first thought in reading this was: "What are the needs of CDers that need to be protected?" The rights of non-discrimination to someone who falls under the LGB umbrella to my mind are related to those of privacy. Contrary to the belief of some here, I don't believe you can 'spot' a gay person visually. It is easy to hide in plain sight, if that is the desire of the individual, but once out it is presently deemed ethical that individuals are not discriminated against because of their sexuality. With TS their rights are more related to those of gender discrimination and the right to be seen by society (or more correctly, the state) as their true gender and to be protected during any period of transition. Outside of this, the only aspect of CDing I could think of that might require rights, would be that which has been explored by Isha - and that would be for an employee to present different genders at work. Beyond that, I have to say that the position of many CDers here doesn't favour anyone supporting a cause, for a couple of reasons (these might be a tad contentious):
1 - That some use the 'just a CDer' to distance themselves from TS (and even TG) by emphasising that this is just something to do with wearing clothes.... Well, if that's the case, there are no laws preventing you wearing whatever clothing you want, but it is only the approbation of society itself that defines what is acceptable for your gender
2 - By removing the possibility that the reason we are driven to do this (most of us don't really choose, I believe) for reasons connected with some sort of gender condition, we leave ourselves in a vacuum of our own making. Without a satisfactory explanation for 'why', it makes it much more difficult for muggles(normals) to accept that we're not doing it for some sort of perversion or thrill rather than an expression of who we really are inside.

This also discounts the large number of folk who obviously do use CDing as part of a sexual fetish and it's difficult to dissociate ourselves from that segment without having a really solid explanation as to why we're different... :thinking:

I kinda like your thoughts, Veronica, but I think there are some issues there if you try to look at us objectively and from a broader perspective. :)

Katey x

the "T" part of LGBT being left behind is because most the "T"s didn't want the stigma of being gay. You all cut that cord a long time ago, more afraid of what others thought than trying to work to get others to accept you. Of course the LG (and what the heck is B rights? Bis don't have legal issues) community left us behind. Everyone gets tired of doing the ground work while someone watches and says "This doesn't effect me". So now we are catching up. It is hard to break stereotypes. Every minority who has gained rights and "acceptance (we'll argue just how accepted they really are later)" had these skewed ideas aimed against them. Every one of those stereotypes was based on fear/. Fear planted by someone who thinks they are losing some privilege or are told it will lead to something worse.

So, now what? You all want to be out and not be shunned or denigrated. Awesome, me too. But when the TSs are out its a no turning back, no hiding thing. So we HAVE to stand up. Sure would be nice if the rest of the T world stood with us. But, now you argue that you aren't "T" that you are not the same area as all trans people. I keep saying we have to work together and I keep getting sniped because you somehow believe what is happening out there doesn't effect you. Not your circus.

To be fair the TSs also didn't follow the LGB crowd either because most aren't gay. So we didn't care about marriage, we could still do it. If we were MtF...we could marry a guy...except in many cases if we are MtF and transitioned we would have been FORCED to divorce our current GG spouse because it became a same sex marriage. So we benefit by the work the LG group did. Adopting? Most "T"s could adopt as men (or genetic women)...so that didn't involve us. But now things that the L&G community has gained has left us behind. Job security? Not covered in many states. Hate crimes? Not covered in many states. Health care...very slight.

But, we didn't need the L&Gs...nope, it didn't effect us. Now we are bailing our own boat. You want acceptance? Start with a mirror. You can't have acceptance in the wider world if you don't show yourself now. Katey says hide in plain sight. That's how most minorities did it...they assimilated. Hard to assimilate when you are afraid to be seen. So who gets the press? The stereotypes that we want to shed because in the media world "If it bleeds it leads". We need more "T"s to come out and do something good....prove the stereotypes wrong. Hell, even in our own community we sniped Caitlyn as being insincere and not giving a vow of poverty and hating her for having money when we have none. When we should had said "Look she won a gold medal against men who didn't have questions about being men. She beat, as a woman, the best men in the world at their own game." All that needs be done is to unite and be seen...

Good Speech Lorileah ,, But the only problem is after most folks that have a successful Transition they just loose the will to fight on something that doesn't concern them any longer. Why try and shed light on a subject that you have already won ? So they just get in line with the Cis folk and move on down the line,,lol,,,

If you could get those in Transition to FIGHT while it's happening to THEM they would fight harder and longer to try and Win the War, But like everything else it's like why bother if no one else cares?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeighR

I agree we as crossdreses don't completely fit those in the LGBT community but some things do help since I do feel more comfortable being out even if I'm read they may just think I'm in transition and even if that's not the case I think it makes it eaiser to shop and be out in the world for sure

---

I agree with most of your position. When you are dealing with strangers, it doesn't really matter what they assume, so long as they don't assume you are about to bring harm to them in some way. Gains made by the LGBT movement can make things like shopping easier. My concerns are closer to home. I don't want friends, neighbours and family to make incorrect assumptions about me, and I don't want to be in a position of attempting to justify my behaviour, having no way of knowing if my explanations are actually believed.

Veronica

V, i recently got out of my fear, and went out seven times in public, though most was at a very liberal university park. I di notice some people give me a very wide berth, and some i sais hello to, just said nothing. And those with kids, really avoided me. I guess it will always be a lot this way, goes with the territory, especially in small towns, redneck areas, rough parts of towns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dana44

Victoria, I agree that the LBGT laws do not benefit us. Even at the Austin pride, I was one of the very few crossdressers there. Also, yes most people think it is a mental issue. Perhaps it is, yet many of us knows a bit why we are crossdressers. I do go out with my SO and enjoy an entire day out there with her in a conservative area. I do think I pass okay and get called mam by everybody when out. But still I know it is viewed strangely. I do not see that changing for a long time. Our current society is not tolerant of people that try to change their views, even if we try to stay to ourselves.

---

At 6' 3" and about 230 lbs, it is virtually impossible for me to pass. Also, I live in a small village in a rural area where people for miles around either know you or know of you. If someone were to spot me as Veronica, word of mouth would have me branded as that weirdo who lives at ........, even if the one who spotted me was quite accepting. Yes, intolerance is all around us, despite the growing acceptance of people needing to transition or go full time.

Veronica

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jasminepp

Veronica, i think we are in the process of this change now, though i feel we are still in the early part of this process. Cj coming out is a milestone, but very much just the beginning. The civil rights movement and process of pushing to stop racial discrimination took many generations and although things are much better than they were, this process is not over. Same with the movement for womens rights. In both of these movements for the most part it wasnt outside leaders pushing for these changes (at least not early on) it was leaders from minority groups and women bringing this about. The media initially didnt favor or support these groups either. Public/ political/ media etc support was something that came slowly over time and was a result of these women and minorities being out on the front lines educating and challenging the discriminatory views and not without suffering great hardship and physical abuse in the process. Some of the public brutalities they suffered i think also helped the public over time see and feel that the suffering imposed on these groups was wrong.

In the tg community cj is basically the first major high profile person to bring us out to the world like never before, but she is only one person. As far as specifically cders theres jaden smith but i cant think of too many others and it hasnt been that high profile neccessarily. Obama has recently hired a tg staff person at the whitehouse which is huge but the only way real change is going to happen is if WE come out together and support each other as a movement and make it happen. Thats when more outsiders will start to change thier thinking and slowly start to support it. Imagine if MLK marched in the streets with nobody walking with him and supporting him. What if they all decided to stay home. Something we all including myself should think about. I know in hind sight the civil rights movement and womens movement changes seem to have happened fast, but im sure for those fighting the fight and paving the way it took forever.

Also the LGB folks have had quite a head start on us and so naturally they're much further down the road than us.

---

Branch Rickey, a man many people have forgotten, was the man who brought the hypocrisy of racial discrimination to the attention of America. He was the General Manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers in the late 1940's and signed Jackie Robinson to a contract to play for the Dodgers against opposition from baseball, the players, the other teams and the fans. He stood his ground, as there were no formal rules of the game preventing his actions, and helped Robinson achieve a Hall of Fame career. But Rickey had a very good reason for his actions which had nothing to do with social justice. He wanted to build the best baseball team, and segregation was ridiculous if it meant turning away talent. We do not have a similar reason for someone to stand up and champion the cause of crossdressers other than our own desires and needs.

The Jenner case could serve as such, but it primarily brings the TS side of the spectrum into the limelight. Also, there is a degree of speculation as to motive among many, which could decrease her impact. The emphasis on the glamour aspect, and the furtherance of her personal career objectives have tainted her contribution to the "T" cause to some extent. The white house appointment appears to be the hiring of a transsexual, which should not impact the TG cause in any way, if we lived in a more perfect world. She is now a woman and should be hired on the basis of her abilities and not because she has transitioned. I may be wrong about the transition, but everything I have read keeps emphasizing the hiring of a TG woman. Many TS people deplore that designation.

Jaden Smith is an interesting example, but he is still young, and young people are known to be rebellious. Also, his crossdressing mirrors the dressing habits of many women who wear male clothing. This is not considered crossdressing by women, and should also be accepted the same way for men. Jaden may be the standard bearer for that approach. This leads to another theme that is somewhat off topic for this thread: Is it necessary to fully emulate a woman to be considered a crossdresser regardless of passability?

Too many questions keep popping up.

Veronica

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lydia Hamilton

Veronica, I do so relate. I grew up in the 50's and early 60's. Our personal outlook and life's expectations were formed from the role models of our relatives. Fathers,uncles, and actors were our primary role models. There was no room for any other views. Gender expression was set in stone and woe be the one that trespassed the norms. I sometime envy the younger generations for having more freedom. That is not to say that there is a smooth ride all the time. There will always be idiots wishing to impose their narrow views on others. As I get older, going out fully dressed holds little appeal to me. I suppose that is one reason I don't come here that often. Everyone will find their on self-satisfaction in how they express themselves. Whew, I have never been this long winded. Thanks for letting a very mature lady vent. L

---

Hi Lydia

It is nice to hear from one of our less frequent visitors. I seem to stay away for months on end, and then when I look in, dozens of thoughts that have been cooped up come to mind. I was in my late sixties when I finally gave into the urge to get out. It had to be to some CD events with my wife, as it is impossible to do it from home, given my wife's concerns and my desire to keep my privacy from neighbours. I have not attended any events for about 4 or 5 years now, and the futility of getting fully dressed and staying home is beginning to get to me, and probably led me back here for a few days.

Veronica

There are many of us in the "T" part of LGBT who advocate for crossdressers. I certainly do.

Sometimes we're slowed down because we're currently rolling under the wheels of the bus where the GL's throw us all too often.

More visibility by CDs would help your cause.

I went back and tried to read and analyze exactly what is expected, especially when there is an attempt to make a connection between cross dressing and other sexual identity issues. I still have to go to my own situation which has been stated more than a dozen times on this forum. Ask me why I like wearing women's clothing and I cannot give you an answer. Time and time again there have been comments on threads indicating cross dressing is a stress reliever. I've even heard that stated on news programs. But, it does not answer the question of "Why?" My wife asked me "Why?" I could not and never will be able to tell her "Why" I do what I do. I can tell her I am not gay. I am not a man trapped in a woman's body.

All these changes cited concerning progress are essential to the affected group. Now any man or woman may marry any other man or woman without regard to race, creed, color, national origin. Legally at least. The transsexual is viewed medically. Gays and lesbians are miswired, and, through some quirk of nature like the same sex. Bi sexuals are interested in both sexes. All of these groups have some degree of functionality in life. If you're a transgender living in one of those states that does not give you all the rights you deserve, please feel free to relocate to Washington State. Washington State law protects all of the affected initials in LBGT and even cross dressers.

So, here in Washington State as a person who is a plain vanilla cross dresser, "What's holding me back?" I am retired. I don't have to fear losing a job or my generous pension. I gave up going to church which seems to discriminate against anyone not a member of the congregation.

I've yet to hear an answer, anywhere, to the question "Why do you do what you do?"

People are afraid of the unknown. Women driving alone will still use that power lock on the door if a black man is spied on the sidewalk. Laws haven't changed perceptions.
I know way too many people who do not like Jews and Catholics.
Legal protection does not confer acceptance.

To me, it is not enough to just get out there and lobby or parade for cross dressing rights or acceptance without being able to tell those in power "Why" it is wrong.

Maybe some of my post is babble. But, can you please tell me the answer to "Why?"

And, if you want to be a trailblazer and go to work fully en femme and have the law on your side, please relocate to Washington State.

Hi veronica, thanks for sharing about Branck Rickey and Jackie Robinson, they were both courageous pioneers. However, one cannot overlook the preceeding work done by the NAACP, Charles Hamilton Houston, and Ella Baker, as well as many others in the 1930s. Branch Rickey played an important role but it was after many many years of activism by minorities had already been occuring. CJ and/or others may be our Jackie Robinson (if we take advantage of the momentum) and the reason ts representation feels like it is leaving us behind is because we arnt standing up there with them. As for Jaden Smith, he wears dresses. Thats crossdressing plain and simple and although some women may not have issues with it, MANY men do. The tg woman obama hired may be a woman but she is still ts and therefore tg and being publicly hired as one she will continue to be viewed as tg by everyone else. This means she is a public leader for our cause (gaining acceptance etc) and obama being non tg and promoting her and supporting her shows that there is and will be outsiders who will play roles like Branch Rickey, whenever we're ready to step up to the plate. Tg/cd people can swing a bat, play any sports, and do darn near anything anyone else can do. Who says a MBL, NBA, NHL, or NFL coach wont bring in an open cder and completely support them based on talent. As far as we know it could be just around the corner. No one saw cj coming.


Stephanie, if those wishing to stand up for cding all move to washington then how is anyone ever going to make breakthroughs in texas or georgia or anywhere else. As for the why, some of us have understanding as to why although they may be considered personal understandings. My understanding is a spiritual one. Every spirit is a mix of male and female energy and although most people have a dominant spiritual energy that aligns with thier sex, some have a dominant spiritual energy that is oposite to thier sex and some like me have a fairly mixed spiritual energy. I realize that many have different spiritual beliefs or dont relate to this understanding but that doesnt mean that i dont have a "why", it means they havnt found a why that makes sense to them yet.

Some long and interesting posts here, thank you Veronica and Lorileah in particular.

There's Caesar's old adage "divide and conquer". There is only people power by uniting, and that means being part of the LGBT and being thankful to the LBG for tagging us along. Further, uniting means being out together, the closeted nature of the CD world is what disempowers us more than the actions of normals. Even further, the victim-conscious language patterns, terms of reference that so many posts uses on this forum drive me nuts - "man up". Women have been traditionally "the weaker sex" as viewed by mainstream, downtrodden and still not equally paid nor respected in many parts of the business world. Maybe becoming more feminine places CD/TG/TS into the victim bracket, but here's the rub: in the "game" of sub and dom, the sub is really in charge. So too is the victim in society: the moment you say "stop", they will, for they have no choice in the game.

I think the elephant in the proverbial broom closet (as it was!) is that there are soooooooooo many fetish CDers... and no one wants to admit this? (esp. here! but also in the larger TG narrative world!)

there are also some truly mixed up / delusional confused toxic people that are saying or doing very extreme stuff!

I think it is quite learned to hide the fetish side of things (for obvious reason... public versus private sphere... kids and unwilling participant strangers to CDers games!... etc)

that if a CDer for whom it is mostly sexual / panty fetish / lingerie fetish / ULTRA femme presentations or clothing... taking "sexy" pics to put online and looking at others...

if they want to go in public have to hide that side of it (which makes sense!) but its' not too differing to that whole therapy thing and how one had to always play into the specific narrative to get what they want (HRT etc) ... saying they always felt like this... no it's not sexual... yes I dress feminine enough but not TOO femme... and the people who learn that they too have to play into these ideas like others before them so then the public or therapists or whatnot think that is the only way it can be legitimate

that fear that Oh god what if there was an Auto-gyn AGN type TS? how did they let them slip through! ... or the CDers whose misplaced sexual attraction in a heterosexual sense gets semi-placed on themselves BEING the female... but still digging females! (but curious about males... but only when dressed!) ... and my oh my it's complicated stuff!




I think it is also worth pointing out that yes things are getting better in many ways and more visibility and understanding and defenders... BUT!

there is also the idea that as this continues to go on (and on!) and not go away I feel like there will be many guys or people in general that feel it is their duty to shun and push against the whole LGBT and esp. Trans agenda (they're trying to turn our kids into freaks! and assault women in bathrooms! they have severe mental problems! next people will wanna marry animals and kids and BECOME animals and adult babies etc!) ... fear-mongering!

I envision that there WILL be the people who think they are fighting for the greater good of morality and values by taking a stand against "all them PC liberal whack-job types!" by going after people like us

anywho!

To go along with a prior posting. I was called to a disturbance no big deal it was a androgynies male using the ladies room. OK I get why some get upset-I get it. I was back-up My partner asked for the policy & there was none so we went on city ordinance. The cities ((new policy))state in short if you feel your a girl that is what rest room you can use, I think you see where this is going. Not 30 minutes after brokering an agreement the Husband of a ticked off women decided that he feels like a woman so makes a scene & uses the woman's rest room. This got hairy as a few kids entered unknowingly. We return now that was my call. Making us look bad is a sensitive issue with me and so is my dealings with sisters I try to be VERY Understanding. Getting back to policy it states if one (((feels))) like. Welcome to the linguistic freak show. Without much recourse I went to the Mayor (this is a public building)suggested a Gender neutral restroom. That fell on deaf ears. Now criticize me for NOT taking in the man for pressing his point. I knew if I did that I'd set up sisters in the future to get in trouble for using any rest room so I went by my gut instinct. I am in this place at times & hear this.. came in either side is a no win situation & my heart breaks so I did my best. Hopefully a gender neutral restroom will help? I was moved in a BAD way to see the hatred towards a sister. Now I'm not sure if the androgynies life style is related but I do see sisters who try to fit in there at times. When I left for the 2nd time NO ONE was satisfied on my action. I did not want a freak show to ensue. I guess my post was about how we think things are changing for the better & from what I see that is NOT the case. Sure the mayor and congressman marched in the Pride march. Little secret they are both closet. Trans girls get beat up when for $$$ the sell sex the DA goes through the motions. To leave this post I'm told adding a restroom that is gender neutral will co$t to much. I'm lost disgusted, beside myself and upset at the level of childhood mentality. True the LGBQRS What ever has made ground. Please some are working hard for the T but at my level I do not see it. Our best ally from what I see and hear is the L. The G part not knowing under the uniform I'm a sister called our community freaks. That comment and he is the (Head) of the chapter. I'm sure he thought I'd chuckle well I did not. Be safe Girls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STACY B

Good Speech Lorileah ,, But the only problem is after most folks that have a successful Transition they just loose the will to fight on something that doesn't concern them any longer. Why try and shed light on a subject that you have already won ? So they just get in line with the Cis folk and move on down the line,,lol,,,

---

I just spoke of this in another post that every one of our people on the front lines freely admit to having been born of the other sex. I also feel that very few in the "T world" are willing to be painted with the "gay brush".....That is the reason that I very much enjoy being the "older lady" in the Jacksonville Transgender Action groups....The young people are willing to accept that they are being viewed as "queer" by the ignorant and intolerant. By the way,Austin,Texas is an accepting place...people need to grow a thick skin in order to be out there...anywhere..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veronica27

Where are the efforts of the media and other community leaders to champion the cause of bringing respectability to the activity of crossdressing.

---

There is no market reason for the news media to give a crap about us. Remember that it's a $$$ driven industry. They push whatever will generate the most attention to get you to watch or read their product. There simply aren't enough crossdresser or TG rights activists out there, and our numbers aren't enough to make a difference financially for companies to give two sh!ts about us. Woman's rights, black rights, hispanic rights, mexican rights, all represent large numbers of people. When was the last time you saw a protest on TV about how legislation adversly affects the Inuit? Right, I thought so. And while there will be plenty of people out there that see discrimination against any of those groups to be shameful, we're seen as a joke by most people, who probably feel that we should be ashamed of OURSELVES rather than the ones discriminating against us feeling ashamed of anything. Sure, legislation will slowly be enacted to protect us. But it's going to be a long drawn out process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veronica27

I believe that there is a tendency among such crossdressers to feel marginalized and they are returning to the privacy of their closets. Where are the efforts of the media and other community leaders to champion the cause of bringing respectability to the activity of crossdressing. The needs of crossdressers are quite different than the needs of the people who are being protected now by the various LGBT rights laws. Crossdressers are seldom in a situation where such rights would be of benefit to them.

Veronica

---

1) I agree that now is a time of great time for the transsexual community. With people like Caitlyn Jenner, Lavern Cox, Janet Mock garnering attention from the mainstream media, More people than ever before are seeing transexuals, not as deviants, but as human beings with lives and struggles. These are exciting times indeed for the transsexual community.

2) While I'm happy and excited about the transexual communities progress, I do not believe that the successes of the transexual community imply success for crossdressers. I my self have struggled with my identity as a crossdresser, feeling my lack of desire to transition made my claim of a transgender identity less valid. I can see the same question of validity entering the mind of a person who has learned to accept transsexualism through exposure to people like Janet Mock or Jenny Boylan. I don't see the public's acceptance of transsexual identities, whatever that looks like, as equivalent to the public's acceptance of crossdressers identities.

3) I do think, as you seem to believe, that the acceptance of crossdressing as valid and healthy identity requires action, organizing by a visible crossdressing community. I see our friends under the rest of the LGBT umbrella as allies in such a movement. I may be crazy, but I believe crossdressing's acceptance by the public requires public action by crossdressers.

Jasmine, when the greater community lobbied for rights in Washington State there was a concerted effort to include cross dressers in with gays, lesbians and transsexuals. I think the legislature wanted to just fight this battle one time and not revisit the issues later. After the state law was passed several of the larger cities (Seattle, Tacoma and probably others) enhanced the legislation to include more protections. Yes, if all cross dressers moved here then nobody would really have to worry? No?

People tend to move to parts of the country that are more welcoming, and, to live within smaller communities that reflect their culture and needs. There was a great migration of African Americans to the north and mid west due to discrimination in the south.

Sometimes miss, the only time a cross dresser makes headlines around here, it's in a negative manner. Actually, I would not even characterize the media reports as cross dressing. It's usually about a pervert disguising himself in ladies' bathrooms to "up skirt" women. There's plenty of positive coverage of gays and lesbians and transsexuals. I would also conjecture most of the cross dressing MtF community intentionally limits their cross dressing to non-work venues and activities, i.e., recreation, while gays and lesbians and transsexuals need to be out and seen in the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lydia Hamilton

Fathers,uncles, and actors were our primary role models.

---

And is it any wonder so many people have a skewed vision of reality?

My father was a remote, irritable man who left home when I was aged 10 without saying goodbye to me. My uncle was even more remote and although he showed me occasional kindness, and I wanted desperately to be like him - tall, handsome, rich and successful - he might as well have been a movie star. As for the actors, I was very impressed by Tony Curtis and Roger Moore in The Persuaders- two playboys who formed no permanent relationships and swaggered around the world hitting people, driving very fast and drinking large quantities of champagne.

While I have done my best to emulate these latter qualities, apart from the hitting people, and I have managed to have several long-term relationships, and to own my feelings and emotions, I feel like what growing up I've done has been despite the early male influences in my life, not because of them.

Today it seems many young people ignore the father and uncle and go straight to the actors for their role models. When you look at the popularity of day-time Australian soap operas and re-runs of Friends, it's hardly surprising that narcissism, conceit, superficiality and plain stupidity govern so much of young people's decision making.

That many young men wear make up and dress androgynously is taken completely for granted- after all, it's what so many pop stars do- and as a result crossdressing is not the 'thing' it was for previous generations. I feel sure that within a generation it will be as commonplace as divorce and single-parenthood have become now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

There is no market reason for the news media to give a crap about us. Remember that it's a $$$ driven industry.

---

That is very true. However, crossdressers sometimes spend a lot of money on shoes, clothing and other necessities. Perhaps some shops, that are very crossdresser friendly such as Payless Shoes, could benefit by emphasizing that fact in their advertising and in their shops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcpmax

I don't see the public's acceptance of transsexual identities, whatever that looks like, as equivalent to the public's acceptance of crossdressers identities.

---

Very nicely stated. You have an understanding of the point I am making.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie47

Sometimes miss, the only time a cross dresser makes headlines around here, it's in a negative manner. Actually, I would not even characterize the media reports as cross dressing. It's usually about a pervert disguising himself in ladies' bathrooms to "up skirt" women. There's plenty of positive coverage of gays and lesbians and transsexuals. I would also conjecture most of the cross dressing MtF community intentionally limits their cross dressing to non-work venues and activities, i.e., recreation, while gays and lesbians and transsexuals need to be out and seen in the community.

---

Unfortunately, the first part of that quote, is very true. In my area, we have had several instances of what the media referred to as crossdressing, by rather unsavory individuals. One was a bank robber, who made his getaways wearing a female disguise, while another much worse incident involved a high ranking military man, who broke into homes and raided women's lingerie drawers for undergarments, took selfies of himself wearing them, and amassed a vast collection of stolen bras and panties. His activities escalated to the point of tying up female victims who were home and eventually the murder of two local women before he was caught. Your last sentence spells out the distinction between crossdressing and the other groups seeking protection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rogina B

The young people are willing to accept that they are being viewed as "queer" by the ignorant and intolerant. ..

---

I cannot understand the willingness of many to accept the use of terms like "queer" and "sissy". They have such negative connotations, that they can only bring the scorn of those outsiders who hear them being used. I guess I am just old-fashioned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tashee

.

---

Washrooms are the primary problem I see for crossdressers. I can see both sides of the issue, as my wife has made her feelings abundantly clear. This is a case of the rights of one group infringing upon the comfort and rights of another, in both directions. The solution, of course is either single user washrooms, or a third gender neutral washroom. We have accommodated the handicapped by having most washrooms required to be accessible, and many establishments have neutral restrooms for families and provide places for changing babies. It is expensive, yes, but everyone complied with the rules for the handicapped and families. It may be as simple in some cases as building a partition in the men's room and installing a separate door. The facilities may already be there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mink

I think the elephant in the proverbial broom closet (as it was!) is that there are soooooooooo many fetish CDers... and no one wants to admit this? (esp. here! but also in the larger TG narrative world!)

---

Wow! You paint a very bleak and scary picture. If one stops to think about it, virtually all manner of sexual activity could be viewed as driven by fetishism. We get turned on by whatever, and that is all that is necessary. But you have a valid point, in that the emphasis on identity, specifically gender, as being the basic concern of the TG movement, tends to dismiss any other reasons or explanations for cross gender expression, leaving the activity open to being considered freakish and undesirable. In any event, the solution can only come from publicity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pamela7

There's Caesar's old adage "divide and conquer". There is only people power by uniting, and that means being part of the LGBT and being thankful to the LBG for tagging us along. Further, uniting means being out together, the closeted nature of the CD world is what disempowers us more than the actions of normals. .

---

Your analysis is correct, but with one omission and that is diversity. The primary consideration is the objective. In Caesar's case it was "conquer". In our case, in a very broad sense, it is gaining understanding and equality. But what is it we are asking the public to understand? That is where diversity enters into the picture. Members of the general public can march alongside the TG activists to help them gain understanding and equality. Nobody will assume Joe Public is TG; he is just there to support the cause. So too can CD's march alongside, but for unity they are being tagged as part of TG. However their objectives could be quite different. Because of unity, the TG goals are being promoted, but not the diversity. To bring up diversity, the basic message would become blurred, and so crossdressers are left being misunderstood. If they object, they are considered non-supportive. So they return to the closet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

There are many of us in the "T" part of LGBT who advocate for crossdressers. I certainly do.

Sometimes we're slowed down because we're currently rolling under the wheels of the bus where the GL's throw us all too often.

More visibility by CDs would help your cause.

---

But therein lies one of the problems for the CD. For many, visibility is not something they desire. Even those who venture out, do so only if they can pass or fly under the radar. While many simply wish to remain private, they also do not want to live in fear of being accidently discovered by those around them. They want to do their "thing" without feeling trapped or being made to feel like a pervert.

To provide a comparison, I am a model railroader. I do not belong to any clubs, but just like to do my own thing in my own way. If someone walks into my home and sees my layout, I can proudly tell them all about it and why I enjoy it. It is a private and very personal activity of mine, but one I don't have to hide (although I am old enough to remember a time when I did hide it from classmates etc. because it was looked upon as childish; i.e. playing with trains). To me, crossdressing is very similar in many ways, but I have to be extremely cautious lest someone find out. No matter how many people say that it is "their problem" if they don't understand or accept, I still have to and want to live with them in my life, and want their respect. Being visible among TG activists, can actually backfire against crossdressers, and help to perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.


Veronica

"Queer" is far different than "sissie"......Most of the LGBT world has accepted that "queer" describes being different. Many of the CD crowd can't handle accepting that they are also different.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veronica27

That is very true. However, crossdressers sometimes spend a lot of money on shoes, clothing and other necessities. Perhaps some shops, that are very crossdresser friendly such as Payless Shoes, could benefit by emphasizing that fact in their advertising and in their shops.

---

Women buy Ferraris but the target market are men, so even though Ferrari gets women customers, they really don't court them. Payless likes our market share but catering to us in a public sense won't help their bottom line. So why would they waste money on a group that isn't a major source of income. I know you all think you are but honestly you are less than 10%. Especially a group that won't "come out"?

Quote:

---

In our case, in a very broad sense, it is gaining understanding and equality. But what is it we are asking the public to understand?

---

that maybe you are a productive and viable member of society even if you don't dress like a guy?

Quote:

---

Nobody will assume Joe Public is TG; he is just there to support the cause.

---

OK...so? PFLAGG does the same thing and they aren't gay

Quote:

---

So too can CD's march alongside, but for unity they are being tagged as part of TG. However their objectives could be quite different.

---

and for a moment I thought you were making a good point until

Quote:

---

Because of unity, the TG goals are being promoted, but not the diversity.

---

and here I am going to ask a simple question...the CD are the ones who don't step up because they can go back into hiding, so why don't the CDs promote themselves? Again as productive normal individuals who have families, mow the lawn, go to PTA meetings? Instead you would rather just walk away because your toys aren't the same as the TGs (I assume you mean TSs)

Quote:

---

So they return to the closet.

---

when the going gets tough, the CDs go hide? (NB I know that many CDs do get out and try and get the public to understand but the OPs point is what we are debating here)

Quote:

---

But therein lies one of the problems for the CD. For many, visibility is not something they desire. Even those who venture out, do so only if they can pass or fly under the radar. While many simply wish to remain private, they also do not want to live in fear of being accidently discovered by those around them. They want to do their "thing" without feeling trapped or being made to feel like a pervert.

---

So let me again ask a question. IF society accepted CDs as you believe they are learning to accept TSs...would CDs quit trying to hide? Would they want more visibility? Would they see life as better? I ask this because, when you complain that you aren't getting the exposure to the public two things come to my mind. Is it because you can't? OR is it because you really don't want to change the status quo? Because, I don't see CDs getting any acceptance when they hide when the fire gets hot because that's easier than fixing the problem? Then they complain that they don't get respect....I hate to use this but GROW a pair. Pull up your big girl panties or whatever bad cliche' you want to use. You expect someone to knock on your door and beg forgiveness? GO GET IT.

Quote:

---

If someone walks into my home and sees my layout, I can proudly tell them all about it and why I enjoy it. It is a private and very personal activity of mine, but one I don't have to hide

---

Now I have to ask, why couldn't you answer the door in a chemise? Because you are afraid what may happen? You want rights and visibility, it will start at home.

Quote:

---

(although I am old enough to remember a time when I did hide it from classmates etc. because it was looked upon as childish; i.e. playing with trains).

---

:thinking: Now THERE is an analogy I can support...YOU overcame that...how? You convinced the world that it was something people do and no one goes to jail for it...now do the same with your CDing.

Quote:

---

Being visible among TG activists, can actually backfire against crossdressers, and help to perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.

---

:eek: what? How? How would you help perpetuate stereotypes? Because....you would dress like a hooker in public? Because you would somehow present as trying to seduce the neighbor? That you would get 30 CDs in a Volkswagen? How, exactly could you, as a CD make the fight the TSs are fighting harder? OR how, would a TS make YOUR life worse? Because people would think you wanted GRS? AW, there it is...isn't it? But you know how to avoid that? Step up, be seen and educate the world in nomenclature and how eah part is different. You can't do that in your basement.


All I get here is the idea that CDs (some) would prefer that nothing changed and they want to cry about that because somehow being disenfranchised and marginalized is better than actually fixing the problem. As Paula noted, a good many of the TS community would embrace you in our cause and take up your cause too IF you would quit crying that you are different than we are.

@Lorileah

So, in order to maintain my right to privacy, I should relinquish that privacy and go out and tell the world my secrets. That's rather self defeating. In your final sentence, you say that the TS community "would take up my cause.. if".. I...." would quit crying that " I am "different than" you. Firstly, I do not have a cause, I was simply stating my observations about how society's values have changed; and the impact that recognition of TG rights has had on the public perception of not only TG and TS, but also of crossdressing. Secondly, nobody is crying about anything. Is your position so fragile, that there can be no discussion about issues? Thirdly, I am much different than those who are TG and TS. I do not have any doubt or confusion as to who I am. My sex is male; I occasionally enjoy dressing privately in female clothing because it is different. It is a change, an escape, an adventure, relaxing and most of all fun. Sex is an absolute, unlike gender which is an abstract. Gender means whatever you want it to mean, including being a non existent concept. It has been described on this forum quite recently as being fluid. I have no desire to change my sex, nor do I feel as if I am a woman, simply because I put on female clothing. There is no woman in me waiting to be released. As such, my needs are totally different than those of a man who desires or needs to be a woman, even if only part time. Personal privacy, and the privacy of those who are near and dear to me are my primary concern, especially given the attitudes of others who have no way of understanding why I do what I do. I respect their right to be uncomfortable around something that seems so unnatural to them, and because of that right, I do not wish to be in their face about my eccentricities. I have been out, but in carefully controlled circumstances, where most of the people I was encountering were expecting to see crossdressers. Even so, I encountered instances of bewilderment and confusion, which I did not enjoy bringing to those people. I am not going to parade around my neighbourhood crossdressed in the hope that I can somehow convince those I know that this is all quite normal. In their minds it is not.

I come on here and some other venues from time to time, in the hope that I can put my message out to at least some who may see it. But as it is I see more misunderstanding in the media than existed 25 or 30 years ago. All they refer to is transgender, and their notion that it is one size fits all. We must all be Caitlyn Jenners. Meanwhile the only mention of crossdressing is in the negative, perverted sense, and the way it is presented on the Jerry Springer show. I can remember seeing some intelligent conversations about crossdressing on some of the daytime talk shows, such as Montel Williams and The Shirley Show in Canada, but those days are long gone. And sadly the public seems to have forgotten what the lessons were back then.

Veronica