I've noticed a lot of posts where folks talk of dealing with shame over their dressing. As I haven't experienced this, I could guess why, but I'd like to know why or what causes the experience of shame in regard to CD/TG/TS.
thanks
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I've noticed a lot of posts where folks talk of dealing with shame over their dressing. As I haven't experienced this, I could guess why, but I'd like to know why or what causes the experience of shame in regard to CD/TG/TS.
thanks
pamela
i am like you i feel no shame about who i am. i did feel shame at the way i hid it from my wife and family, i did feel shame at the way she found out rather than my telling her - but other than that......i am good to go as i am.
curious as to others feelings
There are likely many answers to this, but one I found rather interesting is the patriarchal angle. (In other words we somehow are giving up our "man card.") The act of feminizing oneself is to give your manhood up in a sense. Of course it is BS, especially damaging from a feminist point of view, which goes a long way to actually accept your proclivities to dress proudly, as unless you buy into the superiority of the male attitude, then it doesn't lower ones social status to wish to be feminine or remain masculine.
Otherwise in more simple terms, perhaps many feel that they are disappointing others by not fullfilling some predetermined role?
Have you noticed that in stories about boys who want to play with dolls and dress as a princess, they express no shame? Could it be that they were never made to feel shame for their preferences?
I was caught playing with lipstick as a boy. My dad held me down and smeared it on my mouth while verbally humiliating me. Not for taking it, but for crossing the gender line. Well, not the line but the great divide as it was back then.
Boys with feminine mannerisms are mocked. Wear a dress? Ha!
The shame doesn't come from within. It's drilled down into vulnerable boys by others (some of whom may be insecure about their own sexuality and/or gender identity). Or because of ignorance. I think my dad had good intentions, as he saw it - you're a boy. Boys don't do that. Got it? How'd that work out, Dad? Oh, I still love to put on lipstick, but now I get to do it shamefully.
It took me a long time to crossdress without shame.
Do take the following post with a pinch of salt.
As much as I dislike to use the word, it's the remnants of a patriarchal (and at its worst misogynistic) attitude. Not only is it considered forsaking one's manhood (as Secret Drawer has rightly mentioned) but once a certain idea is considered widely feminine there seems to be a lower (for lack of a better word) perception thereof - think the abandonment of heels - once men's garments - as a salient example. At a subliminal level I suppose there's an ironic nod to the perceived superiority of all that is viewed as masculine if we are to feel any shame about it. Usually external, but ultimately reinforced internally.
Masculinity is rather narrowly defined and has historically, if traditionally, been about power, behaviour and criteria (on the flipside, roughness and excessive rigidity); whereas it seems that femininity associated itself historically with frivolity and submission (despite also being linked with beauty and refinedness).
Furthermore we plausibly tend to assume that others - even and especially loved ones - are riding this train of thought. Even if we don't consciously absorb the attitude it seems like we assume the worst, in this aspect, in others. That's to say before even telling or even discussing the idea without involving oneself, many here seem to have chosen to tiptoe and hide the issue (guilty as charged).
Pamela,
For a male to be discovered wearing women's clothes the typical response is feeling ashamed and guilty, especially if it resulted in masturbation.
The only way we lose the feeling is to understand why we do it, what's inside us driving a need to appear as a woman.
We are all different one size doesn't fit all but to outsiders we are mostly tarred with the same brush, so they make unfounded remarks to hide their lack of understanding and try and make us feel ashamed and guilty.
I realise now the reason why men have a female trait, we are born with it, and that part of us has a need to be female , we can't change that, we just have to adjust our lives to accommodate it and hope our partners will understand sufficiently to support us.
Now I know myself I no longer feel ashamed or guilty, being part female isn't a crime or a sin , if allowed to openly admit this it can be enjoyable.
I personally never felt shame really, I felt bad because others thought I shouldn't be doing this but when I decided this is part of who I am and what I do, I left those feelings by the wayside. The rest is history. :)
I was sure I have felt shame, but I thought I should drag up the definition just to be sure...
As a guy (before I understood that I am clearly some sort of guygal merger...) I was conscious that it was socially wrong to wear gals clothes and would have been perceived as foolish leading to distress or humiliation (depending on the circumstances). I don't think I'm vastly different to many low-level CD/TG folk here, which is partly why I still keep it under wraps. Self-acceptance and understanding that this is more likely to be a valid expression of a femme part of me that is simply needing an outlet reduces the feeling of shame. Acceptance by other people of that expression by all of us would also help because we wouldn't be conscious of other folks' negative perceptions anymore. :)Quote:
a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behaviour.
I probably have a lot more to be ashamed of than this, but social conditioning is a powerful force...
I doubt that TS folks are much different - they have similar conditioning - but I'd be interested to see their answers.
Pamela - do I remember seeing somewhere you regarded yourself as being slightly autistic? Sorry if I've got that wrong - old age! - but that would explain a lack of shame for you, and others with that or similar conditions.
Katey x
I do indeed carry some of that autistic trait, Katey, however i have felt shame in my life - just as my OP says, not in regard to CD-ing. I agree its a socially-created feeling of being judged by others initially, and I can feel when a person wants me to feel guilty or ashamed or sorry or wrong (all slightly different variations of the feelings of the person on the receiving end of crime and punishment games). As my upbringing had very little in the way of "crime and punishment" games, and none from my parents, I don't have the controls in place at times to keep my mouth shut for example - until it's too late!
Psychologically speaking, by refusing the "game" of "crime and punishment" one avoids taking on negative emotions like shame, however kids aint taught that!
thanks xxx
I suppose that it has to do with social conditioning. When I grew up society was harder on males who strayed from some narrowly defined path of "maleness". I noticed as a young child that girls seemed to have a wider spectrum of acceptance. Hence a girl behaving very much like a boy would be called a "tomboy" and while people were not enthused to have a tomboy daughter, they more or less accepted it and the child was not punished. Also when girls wore more mannish clothing they were regarded as experimenting rather than crossing a line. The experiment may have had a mixed reaction but was not punished, or only rarely.
On the other hand when my Father saw me using my forearms to wriggle and pull up my drooping short pants he admonished me for acting like a girl. A few years ago, a colleague of mine reacted when given a small bag that could be slung over the shoulder calling it "too girly". Schwartzeneger can call people who do not think like him "girly men" and get away with it. How many times have you heard the expression "runs like a girl"
Despite years of demanding equal treatment, many female traits are still looked down upon in society at large. So, if a man decides to look and act like a woman, many people, including women, treat them with derision.
CD is out of conventional norms.
Stepping outside of norm results in being ostracized.
Being ostracized puts you in the realm of deviants.
Being a deviant is disrespectful to everyone who has invested in your life.
Being disrespectful is shameful.
I am in fear of being shameful.
Pamela I think most guys have the tendency to not keep their mouths shut when their man card is in question for example:
Another person calls you a faggot what do you do? Say no I am not I'm married and have kids,puff up the chest and try to act big and bad.
When their wife gets on them or claims they did or did not do something men tend to dig a hole deeper and deeper because they can't shut up and end in more trouble.
For me I can't say I ever felt shame for dressing as a female.
I do still feel shame over other things I have done in my life.
If u were raised as a boy/man? And, u were a wimp, u got picked on early. If u didn't grow some huevos, it only got worse rite up to high school. :thumbsdn:
Then, u try on women's things? Yeah, no reason for guilt or shame for enjoying that, rite? I thot I turned gay for many years!:doh:
Straight guy turning gay? Hey! No issues there, rite?:eek:
Finally, I "spend" so much time on dressing and Sherry. Time that could be spent managing my personal, business, and family life better. No reason for guilt there, rite? Letting the paperwork build up on my desk and crap collect in my garages and house because I'm playing "dress up"?
Nope. I don't see any problems there, either!:D
I think Nicole's post is accurate for me as well, shame was heaped on you when you were caught doing what you weren't supposed to be doing as a 'male'. Ie. Doing things percieved as being female only behavior, which be gets getting beat up verbally and emotionally as well as physically as well. That was life back then, sometimes even today...
Looking at what Nicole said it came to mine that most cders have been in her spot. I have been caught and made fun of too, like many of you. Consider this....we, for the most part do not feel shame when we dress, however, the people who catch us dressed are ashamed of us, for dressing. Help me here folks.....not sure where my train of thought is taking me. People outside of the TG world are ashamed of us, because we do not live up to their expectations of how a person should dress, being born a G.M. No disrespect to anyone, but it could be said their brain is not large enough to include cders. THEY, not us, have placed all people inside the male or female box. They can't wrap their heads around anything outside either of the two boxes.
They keep screaming you are either a gg or gm and we scream we are just humans, who have appeared in this world as a gm, who likes to wear gg clothing. They have no desire to understand why we do it, they just want us to feel shame because we don't fit into either box, carried in their mind.
I don't think it is the cloths that produces that type thinking, that we wear. Why ? Well, if you go to Wal mart you see people in pajama bottoms and any other clothing you can name. Does a Dad humiliate them like the Father of Nicole did ? No, because he does not have a male or female box to shove them in. It is just tacky in their minds.
My point is...we are outside the box and they want us in one or the other to make them happy. We already are. Sorry, this was getting long:)
Shame might not be the best word for the feeling.
When I was younger and had no idea there were others like me I felt "ashamed", guilty and oh so scared that someone would discover my secret. It was the 50's and information about CD, TS, etc was very limited and probably most available in porn. For a friend to find out would be like a death sentence. You would forever be tagged as sissy, faggot, queer and all the other names that were used then. I felt that is friends knew my life would be over. It wasn't until I was about 18 that I found out there were others and I was not alone.
Now, with so much information and talk in the media about the subject the majority of that doesn't exist for the young girls. The perspective has changed with the expansion of the dialogue.
I no longer feel as I did. I am happy to be me and if someone finds out well then so be it. They can deal with it, it's no longer my problem.
I haven't the slightest bit of shame over my crossdressing. However, I do carry fear within me... fear of the world branding me a pervert or worse.
Of course, I don't feel that way about myself, or any others who crossdress, but I do read and listen to all the noise and confusion spread about - the misconceptions and lies that people hear about us.
And that does make me fearful... fearful of the ignorance and hate and ridicule that I see sometimes in a persons eyes when they encounter me... and fear that they may act on that hate.
Because I was taught that boy's do this and girls do that and they don't wear clothes of the other "sex". Yes the word sex was used because "gender' was not used in every day conversations back when I was being brainwashed by well meaning adults. And it was said also the act of being turned on while wearing female clothes was a sin and the act of masturbation was a mortal sin so add all those factors together and you get deep lasting "shame". Until I grew and had my own mind and saw life through my own eyes could I not rid myself of shame, I walk proudly and head held high in my presentation of my femme self in the "vanilla" world, wow first time I used that description of the real world. Now that society has begun to accept more or less gender variations the shame may be lessening for younger people and becoming more common place.
Hi Sherry, I wasn't really raised; being the first of many kids with dad away busy, I had to do it myself, blessed by the fact that dad has such a hard father he would not impose anything on us, almost to the point of neglect in terms of not educating us in the social ways of the world, thus the light austism as an absence of social conditioning. As my parents did not use shame/emotional blackmail to control us, we did not get shame imprinted as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
So yes I was picked on, so I adapted to be better - at sports, at school - and if a bully picked on me I fought back in self-defense. After giving a brutal blackeye for one of them I got left alone; isolation rather than shaming. I think many of us here developed macho outer shells to cover the soft core; bravado.
And er no, trying on the women's things, done consensually with my SO - not hidden in secret - so again no shame. And I was bi in my teens - tho that was kept secret not out of shame but out of self-protection. I long since told my mum and SO and kids about that life phase. If its open and normal there's no problem, right?
I have spent too much time in CD world the last year, yes, but shame for it? No, we've kept on top of life. As soon as I was dressing I told my working colleagues, and then worked with clients dressed, so you see, open and out means no shame. Thus I asked the question. I suspected parental upbringing for inducing shame, catholics get a lot of that at private schools here in the uk. It's a social control.
Oh and I acquired a habit of picking on authority figures and bullies in any work situation. Any kinds of controls can get me fired up. There's a revolution coming.
I think for me, though I don't suffer it as severely as I did, was that as a son and a brother and a "bro" to my friends that your expected to do certain things; marry a woman, produce some grandkids for your parents, get a good job(formerly less expected of women to do) , look after your sister as the 'protector' and be one of the guys.
By moving out of the 'normal' behaviour you put that in question so I often found after changing back to drab that I was disappointing others by being unusual and why did this have to happen to me etc etc. it really puts you in a bad mindset when you think you have a mental illness but aside from that your a fully functioning contributing member of society.
Though what I've come to learn, while every 'normal/CIS' person appears to be normal and We the odd ones, how many people suffer depression, anxiety etc etc.
My brain is telling me to want to be female yours doesn't. But my brain isn't making me "insert other quirk/defect etc"
Which is worse? That's subjective
With some of us, it is strong condemnation because of society, and religious norms. "You were born a male because you have male genitals.!" Sissy, girllieboy. Faggot, pervert, deviant, pantywaist. I have heard all these awful terms fired at guys with our proclivity. And some religious leaders consider a man being effeminate or wearing womens cloths, a horrible abomination due to a couple of verses in Bible. It is very hard to completely rid oneself of shame and guilt, when that is all one heard from family and church. I know some of my dressing is caused by an indifferent father who wanted only daughters, and unmet needs for closeness with other people, and isolation,, also. Some of us never totally get rid of all the shame.
I don't feel shame, just a bit sad. I'm very hopeful for future CD'ers though. Won't be a big deal in a few years.
Someone asked for TS input so here goes. Yes I was ashamed that I was a girl on the inside. My angry alcoholic father hated anything remotely considered effeminate and I knew that from a very young age. I became the best boy I could to get all the praise I could. I buried those feelings and became a very good athlete, a basketball player in Kentucky. Later I joined the military, the infantry. All the while knowing that if you really knew what I was you wouldn't like me. I fought and drank and pretty much became like my father in many ways. Although more educated and more compassionate. Some traumatic things have happened to me and I carried all this guilt and shame around for years. When my wife asked me if I wanted to be a woman the almost true statement sometimes came out. That was at 48 years old. Finally, I told the truth. It was such a relief. I am not ashamed anymore. I am a woman and I apologize to no one!
Suzanne
Ill give my two cents...as I had plenty of it...first let me lead by saying I did not have a great childhood, that started some of the issues. Then I grew up in the catholic church and went to catholic school...and with that comes all the shame one person needs. Now I also grew up in NY which people think is accepting and that is not true. If I would have been femenine in my neighborhood, I would have been beat up very day. That starts the hiding. Over time, because I am heterosexual , most women do like this activity, so that causes more hiding and shame...finally you get married get a job etc...especially in my industry ...and we hear words that bring on more shame. Only upon going to therapy and a week away to find myself, did I understand I let those things bring me shame and hurt me. Today, while not out of closet to everyone, I am comfortable with me and have little to no shame any more. That took to 45 years old...
I am not a psychologist... Nor did I stay at a holiday inn express last night...
Shame is the minds way of protecting you from social non-acceptance or ridicule... It's basically a failsafe to prevent humiliation- humans are social creatures, and adhering to the norms of your tribe are vital to survival... In our case, the shame is a reaction to the very real aversion most people have to blurring the gender lines - although, why it's so hard to believe that a binary that divides our species 50/50 might have a few copy errors is difficult to understand given the vast variation of people that is otherwise considered acceptable.
I had shame from dressing until I accepted it as being who i am. I used to dress and naturally I got aroused, afterwards I felt guilty and took everything off straight away. I remember when i was a child my parents used to teas around Christmas time that i I wasn't good I would get a barbie doll it used to annoy me so much but secretly I really wanted one. Then when i was 7 I tried on an old bra that was left in an old wash basket and forgotten about, my dad caught me one day and said it was wrong. I never tried anything on until i was 13 and thats when it turned into a sexual thing and the guilt and shame started. Now at 19 I have realised that its who i am and I have accepted that I like to dress like a woman and I have no shame what so ever. I feel so much better in my own skin. I can wear woman's clothes all day and it's completely normal, the only negative thing is being caught by my parents and if they don't accept me.
It's a BUMMER some people make you feel ashamed and some make you feel good.
I'm constantly testing the waters with people I meet.
I work with with at least five new guys a year and I always ask crazy questions like "How come aliens are always nude?"
Sometimes I say "Friday is wear a dress to work day", and most guys say "Ya OK" but some guys go along with it and say "yes a long flowing gown and heels"
I answered the company in house phone and the secretary asked if I had something to right a note with, I said "Is lipstick OK" she paused and said that's weird, why would I say that?"
Well anyway I can't wait to try on my new wedding dress tomorrow even know I'm not getting married.
I'm not the deep thinker that I used to think I was. I don't know if it's shame or knowing that its better to keep my cross dressing a secret from others to avoid difficulty. I have cross dressed since an early age and am now almost seventy. I came out to my wife before we were married and she accepted and supported my practice. However, until she died over a year ago she was the only one that ever knew. ( I think my mother knew.) Since then, I've joined a cross dresser support group and have told quite a few others. Was it shame or something else that made me keep it a life long secret? I don't know.
I'm pretty sure everyone has explained it very well already.
For me the shame came into play because it is not the social norm. Men are supposed to be this and that and blah blah blah. I would always think if only these saps knew. I would try to suppress the urge as much as possible. When I couldn't hold it any longer I would dress up and look in the mirror with shame and disgust. I hated mirrors for long time.
Now that I have accepted both sides of myself when I see myself dressed I get the exact opposite effect and I love it.
Crossdrssing and TG carries a lot of shame because of its non-virtuous nature. I don't mean lewdness. I mean mostly that it's vain, narcissistic, mostly frivolous, and puts the focus squarely on the Self. In Western civilization, these are not seen as positive virtues. I think this is why people who do it tend to rationalize to a fault, and that the notion that society has it's gender symbols mixed up, etc, is a diversion. People I think would rather accept themselves as gay, trans, otherkin, whatever "born with condition' that we can further dissect out of the human condition, than face the notion of the simple selfishness, hubris, and pride that the Genderqueer life dancec circles around. (Because in the last analysis: you are born, you consume food and oxygen, and you die, and that's it, the rest is superflous, ecpecially if you've already bred.)
I guess that's another way of saying that shame exists to balance out pride, shame being the more seemingly "virtuous" trait in the West.
Interesting question, and one I've been trying to figure out for myself as well. I don't have any shame within myself for the fact that I have some feminine elements in my psyche, or that dressing as an expression of that (or simply because I find it comfortable) is in any way 'wrong'. I also try to be pro-LGB (and especially -T) and I've never been a particularly 'manly' guy (no interest in sports, etc.), but I still present visually as strongly male.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Lynn3
I think this describes my situation fairly well. The fear of humiliation and embarassment don't stop me from doing what I want to, but they do prevent me from doing it openly. It's the fear of being caught/outed, rather than of just 'being', and from that I have to conclude that the shame comes from how others perceive me. That is, it's a shame, not about who I am or what I do, but of being judged or criticized, which in turn suggests a fragile sense of self-worth. If I'm honest, there's likely also an element of internalized transphobia involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandie70
I think that a couple of bullying-related events during my late childhood and early adolescence (one of which today might well be considered sexual assault) may have caused me to become insecure about my own sexuality/gender identity, and this may in turn be the cause of the shame I feel at being publicly judged.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
At this point, though, I don't really have a better answer. :(
The attention that this topic has garnered probably says more about us as a community than it does about the condition called cross dressing.
Why should we feel ashamed of what we are. It is not as if at the age of around 5, I was given a choice to become a cross dresser or not. Do gays feel shame? Many of them did several decades ago but then they had something called GAY PRIDE and they threw off the mantle of shame.
We need CROSS DRESSERS PRIDE and we need to put this "shame" into the rubbish bin.
I think you really know the answer. The vast majority of people want to adhere to some degree of conformity. Most like to belong to a larger group that is accepted by society. If you take your average cross dressing male, who has no outlet to express himself or gain any acceptance through interaction, he is going to have a difficult time being different. The biggest issue is confusion of sexuality. As a child of the 1960's there was zero information available to a teenager. Cross dressing men were "queers and fags," who were beaten up, shunned and tossed to the curb like trash. If you were struggling with the concept or question of "Am I a queer? Or a faggot?" how would you sort it out? Impossible, Hence, shame arises because you are different from the expectations of society?
The concept of shame of oneself is not limited to cross dressing men. If you hang around the school yard and see the bullying that can go on, it is terrible. Many of the kids are ashamed they are overweight? Don't wear the same clothes as the others? Wear glasses? Are not athletic? etc, etc, etc.
Hmz.. to be honest.. I truely believe the world has changed for the better.. compared to 30 years ago..Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie47
nerds became heroes, glasses became cool, race became unimportant, gender became equal, schooling improved and became more accessable, religions became more open and social control disappeared.
Now I'm not blind to bullying - it has and sadly most likely will always be part of society, but if I can see HUGE change in just 30 years in a calvanistic country as the Netherlands that is just as well known for it's windmills and tulips as it is for the yearly gay pride boat parade in Amsterdam.. then there's hope for the world yet ;)
Wow Wen, I've honesty never thought of it from that perspective...I think I just learned something! I've thought IT stemmed from the often incorrect presumption of 'incorrect erotic targeting...yah, lewdness' but maybe not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wen4cd
How does saying this make me feel?
I might not have a face that can stop a clock...but it sure can break one ( 'n mirrors too)
It feels good!? (And if you saw my passport photo you would totally agree 😲 ) 😉
The shame came more from not being as everyone expected, rather than so much from crossdressing in private (after all, virtually no one knew).
I had big shoes to fill; my older sister was the biggest, smartest, toughest, oldest kid in her classes, all the way up to high school. And she was a girl. So surely, I would be even more of the same, right? Nope. On the contrary, I was the youngest in my class, so I wasn't the biggest, I hated school so I wasn't the smartest, I avoided fighting at all costs so I wasn't the toughest (see sig to find out why). I was considered a loser in every way, and a lazy one at that because I didn't do what everyone else wanted me to. Dad was a star basketball player, but I wasn't, because I wasn't willing to fight when it was necessary, and the other kids knew it. It seemed my parents, my family, and my teachers all expected me to be a star, yet, I wasn't. So pretty much everyone treated me like I was worthless. Any wonder I felt ashamed to be me? And then, the worst insult; being ignored by god, finding out I was a mistake, that my body was made wrong in so many ways. Yeah, all that kind of contributed to feeling shame.
Because it was not the norm and looked at as different in a negative way. Felt like it was something that shouldn't be done because there were no mainstream examples of it anywhere.
Like you, my SO was never ashamed of his desire to express femininity. I suspect he rather thought others were idiots for not being more open-minded. lol.
But I can understand the shame for those who feel it. Most of us have a deep-seated need to belong to the society in which we live. Google "need to belong". So it makes sense that a lot of people feel conflicted over being compelled to behave in ways that may cause others to reject them.
Reine says it well. But also, related to the people talk thread, when you hear numerous negative comments made, the mockery, disgust seen from others, the portrayal in the media, yes, we, or I can for certain say "I" just wanted to be a regular guy, and not anyone who was among those whom I have seen such harsh animosity toward. Life hasn't worked out that way, despite my best efforts. It isn't always easy to convince yourself you are really ok when so many around you think otherwise.