Tolerance

Over the last few months I have noticed a few comments that suggest that the writer does not think too much about the interests of certain people. So, for example, a slightly critical comment about those who just like to underdress, or about others who profess that as a cross dresser they feel that they are strongly drawn to gay men or to other cross dressers.

Having been a member here for many years I am struck by the wide variety of what we would call cross dressing. This site is a very broad tent and within it are a great mix from transexuals to those who just like to wear panties and just about every variant and color in between.

When more exposed to the gay male community, I was struck by many negative comments about cross dressers and I always thought that attitude to be hypocritical. After all we all have asked society for tolerance yet we can sometimes be intolerant of those whose idea of cross dressing is just not quite ours.

Why do we tend to "atomize" like this into narrow cliques and tribes? I have always liked this site because of the wide range of interests in cross dressing that it represents. I like having GG's and transexuals here who share their challenges and journeys. Long may it stay that way.

Its been that way for some time Consuelo.
Being part of the gay community I see the intolerance towards trans and Cd people quite frequently. Many gay people can't understand trans issues just like the straight people can't.
When I try to explain myself to gay friends its like "you are so weird" "pick one gender or the other honey and go with it".
I like the diversity here and there is a lot of it and thats good IMO.

My goal has been to try and show as much compassion to all, if they are different and something I don't understand then so be it. I too like it here and all those who have different ways of expressing this part of themselves

Which is also why I've stayed here that long my friend. :battingeyelashes::)

Have you seen John Oliver's spiel on tolerance? It's poignant and hilarious. Type in his name and transgender rights in YouTube. You won't be disappointed!

C, very good thread! Yes, there are almost innumerable backgrounds that people have, and presents, and futures, just like the masses of humanity with all their individuals traits, differences, pains, and troubles, family hell, religious or non religious, different quirks and hangups. Sadly, a trait of human nature, is the "us and them" syndrome.

I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are, and some think there are crossdressing codes that should be followed, and some think there are age limits for wearing certain styles, and some put down those who want to crossdress in secret. Too bad a site that should be breeding commonality and support and understanding is unfortunately so derisive. As a crossdresser, I no longer feel a part of a "transgender" community mainly because of the ill will I see on this site. I am glad of the many recent advances made by the gay/lesbian/bi community and am happy to see greater understanding and acceptance of transsexual issues and challenges due to Caitlyn Jenner and media interest - but if anything, that has only made simple crossdressers more misunderstood and more distant. Guess what - crossdressers are really not going to benefit in any way by most of the issues and transgender rites that are constantly debated on this site. Crossdressers simply want acceptance, or maybe tolerance - especially by those they love and their friends. You can't legislate that but maybe it could be demonstrated more on this crossdressing site.

actually it is rather simple.

Gay ppl do not have a struggle with there identy in itself. it is simply with whom do they want to have sex. The physical same or the opposite or both (Bi, Homo or Hetero), the all taker ( which is pan) and the nontaker (Asexual). But They still Idendify themselfs as one gender. Therefore they are basicly like me, we cant possibly understand what is going on or the whys. so no it is actually not hypocritical. Because LGB asked for tolerance about having Sex with whom they want and Ultimatly to have a lasting relationship with whom they want. The T on the other hand is a little bit more difficult and so incredibly complex and asks for a different kind of Tolerance namely to be or to present as they want or feel internally.

So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.

Just when I thought I was out...

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are

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At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

Not being a seasoned member or blogger I must admit that I have noticed that some members have a narrow definition of what a crossdresser is or to be more precise dismissive of others who are on different level to them. Tolerance for all whom share on this site should be a minimum standard, acceptance a goal to aspire to. I am trying to learn and understand who I am like many others who reside here. When I first discovered this place I thought Wow and while lurking over the last Christmas decided to join, the feeling that even though I wasn't exactly on the same plain I could find a friend or two that I could chat with. (Was so happy to join, felt euphoric) I have noticed like you some of the bigotry that occurs here, yes I have made mistakes and can only hope to be excused for any offense that may have been felt. Some members have posted some demeaning comments and have been allowed to continue to post while some are edited.
I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

In parts of the gay community, a great deal of importance is placed on machismo and being manly men, and some of them look down upon men who are not "manly". They either view feminine males as weak, or as an embarrassment to them in that they feel feminine men send the wrong message about being gay.

That, and like straight cis people, they probably don't have much exposure to "trans people", beyond the images of drag queens (which are a small, visible part of gay culture.)

Sadly, people are people and many do not have much tolerance for anyone who is not just like they are. It seems strange to me, also, that some people here are not very understanding of others.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

Just when I thought I was out...



At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

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You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.

Hi Ladies, Yes some times the comments here are not very tolerant, and they are some times hurtful. I have one friend who posted something here, and the last thing I heard from that person was that she couldn't believe that some one from this community could be so hurtful. She had just started to come out and now she has with drawn and I can't even get in touch with her. I don't know who you are but you should be ashamed of yourself. I must admit that I have given my opinion of what some members of this community have posted because I feel that it doesn't represent what cross dressing means to me, but I always try not to be hurtful in my post. I do think that we need to be aware that when we are interacting with the outside community as a cross dressed person (girl / woman) the outside communities image of us reflects on all cross dressers. Thank you all for a great community over all.

Well said, heatherdress!

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Originally Posted by suzanne

One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.

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Yes, we do live in a patriarchal society, but that is not the reason for women now being able to be "more masculine" as you put it. It is/was the feminine movement which fought for women to be able to be equal participants in society, and not be restrained to being barefoot in the kitchen. The patriarchal society of the past expected women to be prim and proper. Now, you are saying that the patriarchal society is pushing women toward masculinity. It isn't. And IMO, much of what women are now doing is not considered masculine to me anyway. Being equal, doing the same work as any male does not make a woman more masculine. Because they now wear pants, is that really "more masculine" or because they participate in competitive athletics? That just allows them equality.

So, now there are women MMA fighters. yet, ever since the sport was invented, there have been male figure skaters.... If anything, the only thing this patriarchal society is doing is restraining men to be only masculine. Some women will feel like a man should be this, or not do that, but more women are not as judgmental about what a man does, so long as he is contributing rather than just consuming in society.

As for tolerance among the different subtypes of people, gay, trans etc etc. We are still 1st and foremost, humans. It is a human trait that crosses every sub type, fairly equally too. And while it sounds good, that gay people should expect to be more understanding of others, or trans people, no group of people really is anymore understanding or tolerant of other sub groups of people. I don't think we should hold any one group to a higher standard than another either. Oh, your gay so you should be more tolerating of others? or trans to gay people, or ethnic groups, inter racial couples, etc etc.... Is that what male privilege has come down to, the last group allowed to be judgmental? No one should hold any ability to be more or less so. Being judgmental, or intolerant of those who are not the same is a human failing, and one that we recognize and work toward bettering ourselves, all of us, equally.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

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I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.

Zooey, for what it is worth, many women are equally guilty of doing exactly the same to men. It is said so often, oh, you are just a man, no compassion, it's just a stupid man thing. I could go on and on and on. Social media memes go both ways a lot.

Another thing, many CDers are striving to be more feminine. Even though they may choose not to go down the path you did, that they are striving to be more feminine should not be discounted. Pointing out how the femininity they see or act on is superficial, you would be correct a lot. Helping CDers to be more understanding that the femininity they seek goes deeper than the superficiality they see would be a better idea than simply bashing them over the head because that is all they see or act on.

Many CDers get at best a lukewarm reception when they visit the TS section. They might not know exactly where they are on the spectrum. Chastising them for not being 100% female internally doesn't help them a bit. There are numerous members who are now identifying as TS and are planning to or are in the process of transitioning. At one time though, they were once "just a CDer" and likely espoused many of the things you find offensive and hurtful. It is almost like someone who was A CDer but were in a process of discovery and found their way to the TS forums, but then once they get there, they put a stronger lock on the gate. That is not really fair... How is it fair that someone who was among those who were once just a CDer and was guilty of that which is hurtful to you is ok now, but others who are in the same process today should be shooed away and go back to panty fantasy land. This TG stuff is confusing and scary as all heck to most of us, and it doesn't help when we start putting up walls between us. We all have plenty of walls to deal with with the cis gender world, we don't need the walls inside our own tent, just because we are not all on the exact same spot in the tent.

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Originally Posted by PrivateXDresser

Well said, heatherdress!

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But everything can be said better. It just takes too long sometimes to think how.

Zooie - Again it is pretty arrogant to generalize and condemn crossdressers for being demeaning and then be demeaning to those you have accused. Your generalizations about crossdressers are totally unsupported by the majority of comments made on this site. Most crossdressers on this site overwhelmingly admire, love, respect their spouses and SOs. Most crossdressers show total respect and admiration for women in general. You are not only wrong in your assertions, you do not practice what you seem to condemn crossdressers of doing.

Heatherdress - with you 100%

Hell-o Consuelo,
Sure there are a few incidents where a member may discount
another's version of CDing, but for the most part... any criticism is
generally made in a supportive manner.
Now as far as opinions go...
We've all heard they are as common as @$$holes, everyone has one.
It's my opinion that it's usually an @$$hole that is adamantly expressing their
opinion (yes, I did just make an @$$ of myself! I'm OK with that!)
Anyway...CDing (for me) is not a mockery of women, it's more an admiration.
If I get it wrong? Well...shove that rules book under my nose (again) and do your best
to make me follow the rules!
Much Love,
Kristyn

People do tend to band with those who are similar, the flip side of which is unfortunately a turning away from those who are not similar to oneself. I think we do have a responsibility to try and be tolerant of others who are marginalized for various reasons, particularly those in the LGBTQ community. If one group throws their fellow travellers under the bus ("we're not like them") in order to look respectable and court social approval, that's nothing more than climbing on the backs of others to get ahead. We are all, in different ways, struggling with the gender binary. Misogyny is another facet of that same struggle, and so we also have a responsibility to elevate women at the same time and avoid comments that demean and stereotype women.

I have to agree with gendermutt of the TS section of this forum.
It was not long after I joined here I asked a question in the TS section and I was blasted by two TS women and they were brutal.
It was years before I ever read anymore in that section.
I read that section but am really afraid of posting anything in there so I keep my mouth shut.
Zooey I'm guessing your life hasn't been easy but you do come off as being bitter and angry about something.
A TG's or CD's life isn't easy either and while they do not know how a woman truly feels they don't need to be shamed for making mistakes. We all make mistakes.

We all speak and post from our own experience. It is not specific to crossdressing or gay people. Join a forum on cars or boats and it's the same thing.

We also have our individual likes and dislikes. We don't drop those when we strap on a pair of boobs. Some of these likes and dislikes we should probably keep to ourselves but sometimes people push us until we can't keep them inside any more.

And, as a couple members pointed out, there are some real "bullies" on this forum (see Traci G's post above). People who are going to come back and harass you if you post something they don't agree with. This goes back to my first statement about posting from your own experience without any understanding of the fact that others may have different experiences.

I find the diversity here invigorating and if I put a view forward others will either correct me or show their own point of view in a caring manner.

Like Traci has said the TS section is very militant and if you put a foot wrong there you are blown out of the sky.

Sadly I always drew the wrong conclusions or said the wrong thing.

An explanation would have been helpful instead......

Cliques and tribes will always be with us I think..

That's why we show tolerance and above all..... Interest.

Militant is a good way to describe it Beverley.
Its found on every forum sadly.
I was on a site that is more populated by the younger generation say 19 thru 30 most are TG and some are TS and a few have had SRS and fully transitioned.
I answered a young CD's question and within seconds this militant bunch was on me telling me I didn't know shit and how hard life is even called a dumb **** and told to shut the hell up so yeah there are real ahole activists out there.
Basically went off on a few of the nastier members and they showed their colors. I got PM after PM from members thanking me for calling those girls out.
A mod PM'd me and said I was banned for 24 hrs and the 3 post op girls got a permanent ban.
I never went back.
Basically we are all different and will probably never agree on all things but lets at least me nice to each other.

An example:

I recently got told by a member here that as a crossdresser, I wasn't "qualified" to use the ladies restroom at Target because I wasn't "transgender". I was told to use the men's room even though I was dressed as and presenting as a woman.

Sadly not surprising. Because they are "such a woman" they are almost legitimizing the crap laws that are trying to be written. I have read more than once from someone who has fully transitioned, thanks to the help and acceptance from the medical profession and mental health profession that has given this transitioned person the life they seek, then that transitioned person now feels they don't want to associate themselves with "you people"

Don't stop taking your hormones there honey....

The thing I find most disappointing in some of the threads here is the automatic flaming that gets triggered by certain comments. The most blatant is when some well-meaning person encourages others to get out and about instead of remaining closeted. Such remarks, which are obviously aimed only at those who desire to go out but don't, always seem to attract a whole slew of nasty comments.

There are other things that are even more disappointing. Some threads seem to suggest that there is only one "tolerance mindset." If you don't turn off your brain and march in lock-step with that mindset, you are by definition a narrow-minded bigot.

But posting nasty comments is self-defeating. It won't make you happy. It won't make you feel good about yourself. It will just make you angry and bitter. We're all flawed. We're all human. We're all stupid about some things. True tolerance of others means accepting the bad along with the good. If you disagree with someone, it's ok to say so, but do it kindly.

There's a lot of anger on here :eek:
Where's the tolerance now ;)

Yeah the TS section can be tough, was the same when I first joined there. Probably too harsh at times but it's a tough life being TS and Transitioning.
Feels like a hell of a fight to establish your identity so I hope you can understand why we can be over defensive at times.
Sometimes I'm guilty of being annoyed and speaking my mind, sometimes I'm also wrong. You have to work hard at not feeling bitter and it's just an opinion at the end of the day.

Doesn't help that text can be read completely different to how you meant it.

I've been called out before and I'm trying harder not to generalise, because it's true one dumbarse doesn't represent everyone.

Goes both ways though, TS are constantly attacked for elitism and other stuff.

What you forget is if I'm responding to a thread it's probably because it's genuinely interesting, with some really great input from CDers and I post on one comment I disagree with or feel isn't right.
That isn't a comment aimed at every poster.
However this has made me think. I should make more effort to support the good stuff, only commenting when I disagree is on reflection more negative than positive input.

Tracii, Gendermutt, Heatherdress I agree with some of what you say but you're also coming across as bitter and opinionated. It's easily done and escalates quickly, face to face we may have a really good convo but on here it seems more of an argument.
You have to be pretty gifted with language to stand your ground and express your point of view without offending someone using only this format. No one can tell if you're angry, hurt, joking etc etc.

Mayo I liked your post :)

Edit: Well said Cynthia you should proof read my posts lol.

Becky its hard not to be bitter about it when for no reason a post op girl jumps down your throat and calls you names and being very nasty towards you.
I'm tired of being told I'm not "real" or I'm not "down for the struggle" or the std " you aren't a real TG you are just a guy in a dress" with shitty make up."
If hormones make some of you that bitchy its not my fault maybe you need anger management training.
I'll put it this way its not just here on this forum its across the board with post op girls online.
I still support you girls for doing what is right for you to live your life but it would be nice if some would "remember where they came from" and stopped treating others like crap.

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Originally Posted by gina shiney

I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

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I know this to be true- I've spoken to two members with personal experience of it. But this site is just a microcosm of real life, and in real life people aren't always considerate.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, That's when I show up.

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There's nothing wrong with making a point, but the way we choose to make that point can have a powerful effect. This isn't a shooting gallery, it's a support site. Perhaps rather than 'showing up' you could make the point by starting a thread and inviting comments?

This site is not solely a support site.

It tends to be supportive if:
- you don't ever say anything that is controversial
- you conform to the majority
- you never say anything that anyone ever does is wrong

For example I have observed many that are not supported because:
- they take clothes that are not theirs
- they do not conform to other's sexual thoughts
- they are not the right type of CD or TS

But honestly, I don't know if that is a bad thing. Is it wrong to not support someone who steals? I don't think so. But is it wrong to not support someone who does not express their gender variance the same way you do? That I think is wrong. But what am I talking about? Opinions. There are no clear cut rights and wrongs when it comes to opinions. And that is the difficult thing.

Fact of the matter is we are all here for the same reason. At some point in our lives we all found out we were different. Whether you are TS, TG, CD, gender fluid what ever you identify with. You are in a small minority of the population and you are looking for like minded understanding poeple. Of course with any large group of poeple there is going to be differences of opinion. What Noone wants is to be made to feel like they are less of a person because they are not like you. We have all gone through that enough in our lives. If I wanted someone to tell me I am a freak of nature and laugh at me I would go into a redneck biker bar and tell them all I am a crossdresser, we are not here for that. Everyone here has a level of comfort and a point where they are happy to say they are wrong because that dosen't match you is not acceptance or tollerance. Truth is I have felt more excepted in general public then I have here at times and it really makes you wonder sometimes. How can we complain about not being accepted then not accept others because they are different it's not how it works. A man wearing a skirt dose not take away the acceptance of a trans girl as it has been said here. If poeple start seeing guys wearing skirts then it is less of a leap for them when they see the trans person. Think about it thenumbers say about 10 percent of men crossdress this includes transgender I belive, most of those hide it from those closest to them and nearly all from everyone. So what like 5 percent of the general non crossdressing population has any interaction with crossdressers don't know if that is accurate but I'm sure it is a small portion. So a guy gose out wearing a skirt is seen by 100 poeple who have never seen a cross dresser. He acts like any other guy dosen't bother anyone dosen't do anything strange. Then a few weeks later they see another guy crossdressed they are less likely to go all crazy because now it is not so strange. Why would the guy trying to look like a girl be any different then the guy in a dress. I have seen this first hand when I worked retail the first guy wearing a skirt the whole store was all going crazy, there is a guy wearing a skirt in here then the cd can in a few weeks later she looked good but didn't pull off fully passing poeple knew but Noone made a big deal out of it. When I was told about the guy wearing a skirt I just looked at the guy telling me said ok was he cute? Do you want me to get his number see if he is interested in you? For me it was a non issue for them it was a big deal we never seen a guy wearing a skirt before what's wrong with him? It you want acceptance and tollerance then you must accept and tolerate others.

hi consuela, "comfort" right, i welcome as many as i can here when they take the plunge and decide to hit the join button, big step, i tell them this is a comfortable place to share and learn about our"selves", their is a lot to learn, we may never figure it all out and for the most part we all get along.

new members that are novices want to start posts to get acclimated are routinely pounced on, those eager to blow out they're candle, generalizations, self professed experts, we have bigots among us, homophobes and transphobes in this very thread....i can prove it so dont temp me. vile remarks made by and to some, stereotypes, misunderstanding posts and what they mean, posting any nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic (to boost post count ?) and in my case the inability to compose my thoughts concisely on occasion, maybe even now.

or perhaps something like this : Chinese whispers which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group. Errors typically accumulate in the re-tellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly, and often amusingly, from the one uttered by the first. Reasons for changes include anxiousness or impatience, erroneous corrections, the difficult-to-understand mechanism of whispering, and that some players may deliberately alter what is being said to guarantee a changed message by the end of the line. kinda like this thread.

sound familiar, but were not players, now at this point some are not actually responding to the OP. right. (I’m trying for both, the OP and some comments), its usually not amusing like the game above because we live in reality and ones reality is not anothers reality. its the internet take it from where it is coming from.

quickish story, irish-fest, good times right, (stereotype), off the parkway in my state next to a vietnam memorial, we veered over to visit the memorial before the fest real quick, this particular day someone the previous night had taken a dead rats, decapitated them and ran around the whole perimeter of the memorial and left a trail of blood around the whole place.....custodial crew was cleaning it and discussing it while doing so.

we noticed that their were obviously family and service people who had come to touch the names engraved in the walls of those they knew or a loved one they lost, i looked at my wife and told her i would never come back, i exclaimed this was not built for me. i dont feel comfortable here.

so to a fault right zooey, i can understand why the TS sections were created, i can relate to the TS folk that water there, but for me I dont feel comfortable there, my choice and reasoning.

many that water in the MtF CD section take an aback feeling when its inferred that they by definition are include it the general transgender umbrella definition and feel insulted by it. some adamantly deny any association to the LGBT, not a good ally. so why should LGBT folks advocate for them. it seems they only want to be part of the group when its convenient for them. guilty, my hands up ive done it, but ive learned here and at my support group….look someone in the eye and tell them theyre not a women just because the had reassignment surgery to become who they knew who they were all along, that goes the other way too, or see theyre joy when they have the name change.

hey crossdressing is fun, crossdressing in the real world is daunting, being TS in the real world is ?..... hell i cant tell you, its not my reality. but when i go to the TS section and read posts it brings me back to the Vietnam memorial…..i just dont belong there.

undoubtedly im about to be unfriended again but…..this thread is labeled tolerance….

tolerance or respect, is not guaranteed, its earned….so reflect about what you have personally done to advance tolerance or respect here or in real life compared to others here who lay it on the line and walk the walk....we owe them our gratitude especially when for reasons we all have or had to not be personally able to advocate for ourselves. not judging anybody, i do what I can and understand why some can't but will give others the props they deserve when they pick up the slack.

some folks dont take the time to read, trust what others are trying to convey, sometimes pointedly but with sincerity, for our own good. some are really nasty about it and could care less.

if you look at this from the TS side were a fairly silly lot of twits sometimes babbling on and on how we’re women this and just like a women that and meantime therye out there advocating on our behalf to advance things to better life for us all while most of us hide in plain site like a silly teenage girl, (stereotype) i could see why there is some anger.

i cant speak of anyones ill treated experience with the TS section or TS folks in that section but i felt wiser steering clear of it. and militant may be a little severe.

look at the comments about hormones just today and you wonder why their is a comment on misogamy (yea i had to google it the first time she used it.)
i pulled an example of misogamy thats seen here:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...re-a-girl-when
sorry to the OP for singling out this thread, like i said crossdressing is fun.
and another ….
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ou-were-a-girl
silly stuff. again sorry to the OP.
has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....we fall all over ourselves to post in the pretty girls threads, how manly. hands up, ive done it too...

i have been communicating with zo for a few weeks, she is a compassionate, educated, curious, demanding, tolerant, dedicated, and faithful women. id be proud to call her a friend, even prouder to take a seat and pee next to her, (its between us), she has made me see things in myself i was blind to. i think if we want her to advocate on our behalf she deserves our respect, but i also think we deserve hers. so if you read her post she says she doesn't like when folks demean women, now i dont know if heather and zooey have a history in another thread but thats between them, but zo has a right to her opinion. it may be ruff around the edges but she's not the only one here like that and she is an ally for us.

as far as going through the surgical door and coming thru another person, how would i know ? how many young men went to vietnam or any war for that matter and came back the same person ? how many are on this forum ? are we all gonna live in utopia now and sing kumbaya, nope, but lets just try to respect each other a little better going forward….change is good……we have to change how we perceive each other before we change folks perception of us in the wild....

oh and just for the record and perspective i was terrified of zooey a few months ago. but now when she makes me think it hurts my brain....

The road is long from discrimination to tolerance. It is also long between tolerance and acceptance. All humans are different, the irony is that some of us who are discriminated against do the same thing to others! Some things will never change. If we can't find love and acceptance here, where will we find it?

mikell, thank you for that - I appreciate it, and it wasn't necessary for you to say that. There are a couple of things I want to clarify though.

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Originally Posted by mikell

so if you read her post she says she doesn't like when folks demean women, has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....

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I have no problem whatsoever with whatever folks want to wear, and I don't really care if you take pictures of it. I don't think that's necessarily demeaning to women. If anything, it's appropriation, and the often sexualized aspect of it makes that a bit more challenging but in and of itself I don't care.

My only issue is when CDs start to conflate their version of femininity with the experiences of actual women, try to explain how we're totally the same, or project their fantasy image on us. That's when it becomes demeaning. When I mention that, it's not the picture posts. It's stuff like...

• Women never dress sexy (like women, like a woman should, etc.) anymore
• I'm so much more girly than most women I see
• Does anybody else get the urge to do girly activities, y'know like vacuuming the house, when you're dressed?
• I'm such a girl, I own like 200 pairs of panties and 50 bras
• It's so great how we understand women so much better than other men because we know how to do makeup, walk in heels, etc.
• Etc.

Speaking specifically to the CDs...

Be you. Embrace your brand of femininity. But you don't have to do it by projecting your fantasy onto the lives of actual women and/or judging their experience against your desires. If you want to understand women more deeply, listen to them.

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Originally Posted by mikell

oh and just for the record and perspective i was terrified of zooey a few months ago. but now when she makes me think it hurts my brain...

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I'm sorry for any increases in your Advil spending this month. :)

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Originally Posted by Nikkilovesdresses

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Originally Posted by Zooey

I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, That's when I show up.

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That is an incredibly misleading edit of what I actually wrote. For the record, the bit preceding that comma actually showed up as...

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Originally Posted by Zooey

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

Don't stop taking your hormones there honey....

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Thank you, I won't, because - having dealt with them before - menopausal symptoms are a bitch.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Most crossdressers on this site overwhelmingly admire, love, respect their spouses and SOs. Most crossdressers show total respect and admiration for women in general.

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I never said you didn't admire, love, and respect your spouses. I was trying to say that the version of femininity that is often expressed here through your dressing is frequently glorifying the things that most women either don't have time for in the real world, or alternatively, have worked hard over decades to eliminate the expectation of them doing. My suggestion was that you may find you get more support if you either embrace a version of femininity that feels more relatable and/or respectful to the experiences of actual women, or at the very least, don't try to conflate it with the lives of actual women, or worse, how you think they should be living.

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Originally Posted by Nashmau

So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.

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But,we do have common ground. We are not "the norm" and we often disappoint others expectations of us if we are out to them. Most CD's keep it a secret so this doesn't apply to many however I find that alphabet kids can play well together on the same playground.

I've heard this forum has a "reputation" for being less tolerant than other forums. There are a lot of different people here. We should be free to express our opinions without fear of attack.

We as a group, of which I include myself, really need to be more tolerant of each other. Knowing we all are different you would think it would be automatic, but it's not. Is it because everyone wants to be sure they are doing their best at this and find confirmation by finding ways others are not? Again, I include myself in this as I remember over hearing two fellow members talking badly about a third who had 'hairy arms' as their wife didn't want then to remove arm hair. I have since learned we all do our best. What more could anyone ask? We just need to be accepting of what others can do?

Genny B

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Originally Posted by CONSUELO

Why do we tend to "atomize" like this into narrow cliques and tribes? I have always liked this site because of the wide range of interests in cross dressing that it represents. I like having GG's and transexuals here who share their challenges and journeys. Long may it stay that way.

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It's like that everywhere. There will always be individuals who cannot understand or respect people who are different than them. You see this with race, religion, politics, education (for example a lot of people disrespect intellectual people whom they consider are "uppity"), social class, and yes, gender identity and sexual orientation too.

Thankfully, not everyone within a social group feels this way.

Consuelo,
I'm not going to tar everyone with the same brush but I've found the gay community to be an introvert group, if you don't belong to their exclusive club then don't bother them.
A good male friend gave me a talking to about my CDing and the gay community, it's something most people don't want to talk about .
This is why this forum is so useful , we can talk about things that bother us and hopefully things we find amusing. I admit that I may have spoken out of ignorance on some subjects but then many are guilty of that. We should accept being corrected but I'm afraid some members are too venomous with their comments, it is a help forum not a punishment one, there are ways of replying to people without flaming them.

I'm sure many of us have poured our heart out at some point and hesitated to hit the post button and then hope everyone sees your point of view. I'm afraid the one reply with unnecessarily harsh words is the one that sticks in your mind for days and you don't want to return to the forum for fear of being hurt again.
Sometimes I do wonder what some members joined for, they hide behind a cartoon avatar and an odd name and then dish out venom only to disappear again without having the decency or good manners to accept a matching reply, maybe they just get off on that !

like i said to a fault....

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Originally Posted by Zooey

mikell, thank you for that - I appreciate it, and it wasn't necessary for you to say that. There are a couple of things I want to clarify though.
......................all the other stuff she wrote.....................

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yea i did have to say that, i owe you that much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikell

.................................beginning........ .............
i pulled an example of sillly misogynistic stuff thats seen here:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...re-a-girl-when
sorry to the OP for singling out this thread, like i said crossdressing is fun.
and another ….
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ou-were-a-girl
silly stuff. again sorry to the OP.
has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....we fall all over ourselves to post in the pretty girls threads, how manly. hands up, ive done it too...
....................end.......................

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i pulled the part of this quote and placed it in better context, like i said my brain hurts....better by pfizer stock.....

FTR- my comment "don't stop taking your hormones" was not directed at Zooey, or anyone in particular. Just anyone who is or has transitioned and does not want to be considered part of transgender anymore. I am going to try an analogy. Bare with me, its early and I am dealing with some sinus allergy stuff this am, so this may come off a bit weird ok.


Let's say we are all just by being born put into the "gender building" Cis gender is on the bottom floor, a huge lobby and that is where a vast majority of people are.
Then you have those who don't feel right being in the lobby. There is only one elevator that goes up. Anyone who feels the need to go to a higher floor has to take the one elevator.
On the 1st few floors are the "just a crossdresser" dude in a dress. They like the dressing, maybe some feminine like behaviors associated, maybe they like the sexual feelings, whatever, but they still identify as the gender they were born as.
Some, most will 1st get off on those 1st few floors. Hey, the closer you are to the lobby, the more "normal" you are, and heights can be scary for most too. We don't want to go higher if we don't have to.
for some of us, those 1st few floors don't match who we are either, so we get back in the elevator, and go up to the middle floors. Here, still crossdressed, but the gender now is not defined so clearly. It can be confusing in these middle floors. Not really men, not really women either. A little of both, or neither perhaps. In these middle floors there are also a few side rooms, non binary etc etc. Here in these middle floors you will find a lot of people that don't always know if they should go up higher, go back down lower, or stay where they are.
(you do get some of the people who are on the lower floors who will ride up toward the top or the very top) and "think" because they got on the elevator and that they dress, they are more like the people who are up on the higher or top floors. In reality though, they really aren't.
So some will find where they need to be on the middle floors, but others will figure out they still need to go to a higher floor still. So back in the elevator they go.... and now it is really getting up there, toward the top. A few floors below the top, close to being a woman, definitely more like a woman than a man, but not all the way there, don't need the surgeries and what not. Probably a very confusing place as well I would imagine. Still there are those that know they need the penthouse suite, the top floor, women only.

We are in a sense all the same in that we all must get on the elevator to get to a different floor than all of those that are in the lobby. the fact that we are above the lobby makes us connected simply by being higher. We are all different in that we have a floor that is best for who we are. It can be confusing as to which floor we need to be on at times. Sometimes we go higher than we really need to be and then can go back down to a floor that better suits us. Sometimes we need to see the view of the higher floors to see if that is where we need to be, realize it is too high, and go back down a few floors.

We should recognize we are all different, even those who are on the same floor. Recognize and respect those differences. We should definitely respect the differences of those on higher or lower floors, and not feel we are better because we are on a higher or lower floor, or even the huge crowd of people in the lobby for that matter. None of us as humans are "better" than any other due to which floor we are on. Granted, there are a lot of people in the lobby who will feel they are superior people because they never got on the elevator. But that is their problem not ours, so long as we do not allow them to dictate where we go.

Occasionally, someone from the penthouse may have to put someone from one of the lower levels back in their place, but hopefully let them know too that hey, if you ever feel you need to be here, I will be here to help you. It is a long way up, and a lot to go through to get here. Just be sure you are ready to be here. Same goes for the confusing middle floors. Same goes for the lower floors.

To those on the ground floor, anyone who gets in the elevator becomes "one of them" to us, we can also say, "you are one of us", by virtue of being above the ground floor. We can help each other find which floor is best suited for each other. Some will stop at every floor, others will shoot up to the top hardly stopping at any floor. No matter which floor we are on, we can still be friends with anyone on any floor, even those who are ok with us down in the lobby.

GM its the ones that shoot up to the top hardly stopping that seem to forget there are other floors or levels in the building.
If you are not on their level somehow you are not authentic.
I can safely say the most hateful comments I have gotten on here have come from post ops and I really hate to say it but I wonder if they will ever be happy in their lives.
If you will notice they even fight among themselves in threads.

I love your analogy; it makes perfect sense to me. I'm thinking maybe my husband is just as confused as I am (he's stuck somewhere in the middle). Maybe?

Tracii, I think that is just part of what happens to humans in general, sadly. They get to the top of wherever, whatever, and an elitist mentality takes over. I have been a member of a fairly prestigious golf club. For me, it was all about playing the course, and I didn't associate much with most other members. I did notice though, a sense of coldness among many of them. A constant background upsmanship among them.

When I live in CA some 30 years ago, I lived near my aunt and uncle. None of us had any money at the time. But many saturday nights, we would play these epic games of pitch. we played in teams for nickles. Drank copious amounts of wine out of the box. My uncle has now passed on, but I remember one particular night, the wine was flowing, he was my partner, maxes out the bid... he leads out with a Jack, looks at me and says, I am going to need a lot of help partner. I laugh and cry still thinking of those memories. We had nothing but each other and it was some of the funnest times of my life.

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I certainly cannot guarantee anything Sally, but it is likely. In my analogy, you will find a great many CDers on the lower levels, very fetish oriented, and typically the ones who become the girl for the night or however long. They really transform into this"other" person. They often have different likes or tastes in just about everything. Almost like a split personality, but not always. When you get to the middle area, I think that is when it is most confusing. You feel (at least I do) a sense of both, a connection to both. It is like gender equilibrium, or a lack of at times. I have considered transition. For me, it seemed more terrorizing then staying where I am. But some will end up going up to the top too though. I don't want to put any false hope or expectations on you or him.

Tracii you're generalising now.
I know of TS that have never been through any crossdressing stage, some go through surgery and move on and yet never wear feminine clothing.
They have zero connection with Crossdressers so why would they feel kinship? I'm not condoning there attitude if it's rude but you are also coming across as strong willed.

GM the analogy though I get what you are saying doesn't work.
For example this idea we (as in me TS) live in the Penthouse like some elite level to aspire to is just plain wrong and a frequent ideology here.
All I want to do is go back down to the lobby with minimum fuss. If I was ever on the middle floors it was because I got lost.
Feels like I'm now really happy in the lobby but for a few middle floorers who keep coming down telling me I belong with them?
Yet if I say well I like the people on the middle floors but it's not where I belong I get accused of being elitist or arrogant. Nearly always by the few who are insecure where they belong and are projecting.

There are so many CDers that state they are only in it for the clothes and don't want any connection with being TS, I don't take offense to that.