What underlies society's and SO fears about crossdressing

I expect another heated discussion, so flame suit on ...

Rather than go on why we crossdress, I wonder why does society have such fear of this?

Some possible reasons:
Fear of homosexuality
Anger at deception
A SO's competitive nature

So food for thought on these - a woman is not lesbian, but having a partner who presents as female makes them feel that way, and they are uncomfortable thinking about being a lesbian in their mind or the mind of others. A man who sees another man who is presenting as female and pretty, rather than just admire the person is sexually attracted to the person, but since it is a man, then does that make him gay in his mind, and so upset at that fear? All seem reasonable, assuming that homosexuality is something that people are right to be fearful of.

Anger at deception - you present one way (female) but are really male - "you are deceiving me and that is what I don't like " or "I married a man - you don't look like the person I married, so you deceived me!" But both sexes will focus on their appearance and body image more during dating, and things often change after marriage, so is that deception? Women put on makeup routinely - is that deception? You may say it is a matter of the degree of deception, but I wonder about the underlying cause, not the degree.

Competitive - does the SO feel competition for her love and attention from this 'other woman' in the relationship? Despite the male partner showing her love and attention, she can see how happy this makes him, and feels competition due to that?

I am not saying I am right or wrong - feel free to expound your point of view or add other possible reasons. Add facts if possible. Just one collection of thoughts as to why we are in the closet.

Hugs, Ellen

Ellen, All of your points are valid. As a lifetime single, actually another misunderstood group, many years ago, when i was not dressing, i went to a singles dance, in drab,and the lighting was low, and in walked a very tall nice looking GG i thought. i got the guts to ask her to dance, and she said yes. It wasn,'t long before i realized she was a guy in drag, but we chatted a little, and when the song ended, we both said thanks. Part of me felt very uncomfortable, but, knowing that i am attracted to some womens clothes, and had dresses at times, I was not angry. I felt a bit decieved, but was not angry at the person. One guy friend i know, said he would have decked him! I told him, we all have our struggles, and things we deal with. Sadly, many men would have decked the CD or TS! Some would call him a bad word. When i go out, sometimes, i wonder if i am purposely deceiving the public. What you said about GG's wearing make up, made me think. Some GG's do look quite different without the makeup! I realize, though, that most people can see I am a crossdresser, and i am not fooling many people. I am trying though, to present as a very tall, well dressed lady, or Cd presenting well. some people will always say we are homosexuals, or transvestites, or weirdos, perverts. It is so ingrained in people over age 40 or so! It really does bother many older folks. And all the GG's i have told, that i considered dating, have rejected it soundly. Some of the young people are less upset about it, but even some of them, if religious, condemn it. Some teen age girls blasted me once, with OMG!!! I was only walking down a town sidewalk! Some places are far more liberal, and tolerate us or accept it some. Many areas are still not very safe.

the answer to that would depend if your are the crossdresser or the wife. Generally people are prejudice about things they do not understand.

I think it's an artifact of the specific western (especially American) culture that we live in, and how over the last 80 years or so we've had relentless marketing that seeks to amplify boudaries between genders. It's a pretty common and effective approach to sell things by way of making people feel inferior to their peer group. ... "you're a woman, women have smooth skin. Is your skin smooth enough? Try our exfoliating lotion!" ... "you're a man, men like football. Do you show others you like football enough so that they're sure you're a man? Buy this ugly-ass jersey and solve that problem from a block away!"

So you end up with some (a lot) of people who have bought enormously into a completely bogus interpretation of what gender even is, provided to them by an extremely well funded, pervasive army of marketers, intent on propping up that bogus conception to sell everything from lipstick, to pickup trucks, to bacon, to real estate. "This is who you should be, let us sell you something to help you embody that image"

Then along comes one of us .. living, breathing, undeniable proof that not everyone buys that BS. The internal question becomes unavoidable "is there something wrong with my understanding of my place in the world, or is there something wrong wth this other person?" It's the rare person who will extend their understanding of the universe to include us, and it's far more likely we will be instinctively interpreted as a threat.

The are of course a lot more aspects to it, but I do honestly think this is where a lot of the knee-jerk hostility towards non-gender-conforming people.comes from, and also why you tend to see a lot more of it in the older generations than the younger ones.

Ellen,

What you write is all true and valid but for me it all comes down to the fact that for so long right up to a couple of decades ago being CD equated to being gay. No distinction made and with being gay illegal, something that could get you a prison sentence, you kept it hidden.

That sentiment still pervades societies thinking. That men in dresses are lesser men and the object of ridicule. Being gay has gained far greater acceptance and so to some extent has CD'ing. The difference is however it's difficult to point to a lineup of 10 males and pick out the gay one. Much easier to spot the CD'er.

Thankfully it seems that the younger generation aren't carrying the baggage of their parents and are much more tolerant.

Great question. I agree with ClosetED and others. My view is lack of knowledge. Let's see..we have 1. straight crossdressers, 2.gay crossdressers, 3. bi crossdressers, 4. transgender crossdressers, 5. transsexual crossdressers, 6. drag queen crossdressers, gay, bi & straight...maybe there more, but here's 6 different classifications....If this was a pop quiz, could most define the similarities, or differences between each?? Who cares? BUT, society generally see all of us as gay, which = unacceptability....done!
Hypocritical behavior by those who dress underneath, in private, or even go out, who are the first to cast stones. Recently, a local college professor accidentally got into a picture...was recognized and was put on probation..married with 2 children, author, etc....but he resigned later. Sad story.
Female competition and control. My wife is totally supportive and helps me. Having been a model, she show me her make-up tricks....but when it comes to wearing hose...not in fashion. And, when we go out she forbids me to wear hose...my favorite! Says it will draw attention, especially with sandals. I have to agree and leave them at home...awwwww.

Helen, I like the lineup of ten men analogy. Only the guy in a dress is easy to spot.

I'm guessing much of it has to do with one's overall outlook on life and people. For myself my love and appreciation of someone has very little to do with the plumbing and more to do with the person themself. How they choose to present at any given time is up to them as far as I see it. :)

So, another question / scenario:
In a social gathering with all / mostly gay men, are CDers better accepted? Locations like Provincetown seems to suggest it is.
What about a gathering with mostly lesbians? Or do they consider this a man invading their territory?
I have no experience with either. I did pick a therapist(not gender therapist) because he was openly homosexual and thought he would be more understanding and is.
Hugs, Ellen

Kate said it well. It is the inner person that is to be considered, more than the outward. The several gay men i have known, did not understand why a man would dress up as a woman. A few lesbians had nor problem with it, but they thought i was a woman in a mans body.

Sadly as a society I think we are burdened with puritanical notions about sex and pleasure combined with rigid ideas about gender roles. 🌺

Ellen I think your observations are fairly accurate, my wife has many times said to me I did not marry a women. I agree with her she did not and since it is not my intention to do anything to change that it makes it difficult for her to understand why then do I prefer to dress as one. I do many things a women does, shave my legs, wear women's underwear, paint my nails. So does that make me a women no of course not but it can cause a conflict with her or others so yes I can understand much of that and why some have the fear.

Not normal behavior for a man.
Fear of anything different from normal gender roles.

Ellen,
I'm not sure if society does have fears , maybe I'm relating to my own situation but most people are more intrigued by it. Much of what we live with is media inspired , so the usual point of dressing as a woman has to be to attract a man or we want to be a woman. In my case I have no interest in men but wanting to be a woman is harder to truthfully answer, if all restraints were removed how many of us would travel further down that road ?
As for the fear our partners feel, it's hard to answer because they all see it differently, I've known GGs that do accept it, so what makes one woman OK with it and not another. I think much of that is down to upbringing, a free thinking open minded woman is rarer than a male one. Also most women don't understand CDing because they don't have another trait in their brain so they can only achieve levels of acceptance.
I hate to say it but most women expect their husbands to lie, most are forgiveable but to most not the lie about CDing, possibly because it's not just one but a whole stack of lies on top of each other, yes it is total deception from their angle. This is very hard on the CDer because if you're born like it , you may have to suffer for it the whole of your life and there's nothing you can do or say that will change those basic facts.

The bottom line is if we live with a need and to able to be comfortable with that we need to find the right partner, but there are too few about , some may be OK with it if it wasn't for the false pressure they think society puts on them, sadly society isn't that bothered .

What if homophobia is as genetic as our desire to crossdress? Then there may be no way to solve it ever.
I am trying to do a root cause analysis - if stopping homophobia freed us, then that would be useful to know for us to all do a little part.
But are we, more accepting than most, free ourselves from homophobia?

As to wives expecting us to lie, that is another issue. I felt I was extremely honest and once my desire to dress returned after marriage, I did tell my wife. She tolerated it, but then asked for it to be DADT - asking me to lie and deceive her against my nature. Then when she finds out things, she is upset because I did what she asked me to do. It is a no win situation. Tomorrow is our 27th wedding anniversary and I got her a 1.7 carat Forever Brilliant Stone on a gold necklace. I bet I get a card and nothing else. Too few right partners is correct

Ellen

Ellen,
You've just reminded me, my 42nd anniversary is due on July 6th, I always smile that I missed independence day. She won't be wearing her engagement ring because after so long it's being remounted, she's upset that a stone dropped out of another ring so she's having the engagement ring done.

ClosetED, sorry for the long post, but I'm addressing several remarks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Not normal behavior for a man.
Fear of anything different from normal gender roles.

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I’m with Tracii, except I’d replace the second line with "Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles". We’re hard wired to detect and react to any potential threat, and so we do mistrust what is unfamiliar. But this applies to everything, not just unfamiliar gender expression. We’re suspicious of food we haven’t seen before (a lot of people refuse to even try these foods), we’re cautious in unfamiliar surroundings (a lot of people don’t even want to travel to foreign lands), we’re suspicious when we see people behaving in cagey ways (we mistrust what they’re up to), to name a few.



But to address your OP, ClosetED, I think you have an incomplete picture of how GGs feel generally. I say "generally" because as with everything else, we cannot put every single GG in the same box:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

a woman is not lesbian, but having a partner who presents as female makes them feel that way

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No. Women who are in relationships with crossdressers generally know they are not lesbian and they know they will not become attracted to women just because their husbands wear dresses. And because they are not attracted to women, they (generally) do not find their husbands attractive if the husbands wear things traditionally worn by women. Some wives can get past this, however, as long as the feminine presentation does not enter the bedroom. And some wives can get past it in the bedroom, but they still fundamentally know that their husbands are anatomical males. Few wives stay the course after a full transition although I applaud those than can.

As to not wanting to be perceived as lesbian, this is true because no one wants to be perceived as someone they are not. But, what person on the street will perceive a wife to be lesbian if she is with a man who happens to be presenting as a woman? The wife will be perceived as being in a relationship with a crossdresser (and not another woman) since very few crossdressers are perceived by others as natal females. This gets us back to Tracii's point which is that most people don't get why a guy would want to present as a woman, so there's a taboo (judgement or suspicion) attached to this. Some wives dislike being stared at or judged and this is why some wives feel awkward while out with their husbands while crossdressed.

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

things often change after marriage, so is that deception? Women put on makeup routinely - is that deception?

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No. There’s a difference between enhancing a gender presentation (a wife putting on makeup), and wanting to do the exact opposite (a husband putting on female makeup).

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

Competitive - does the SO feel competition for her love and attention from this 'other woman' in the relationship? Despite the male partner showing her love and attention, she can see how happy this makes him, and feels competition due to that?

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Yes. But, if a crossdresser shows his wife love and attention consistently (if he does prioritize her above the CDing), the wife will be more open to the CDing than when the husband shows a preference for his female presentation. So if the wife perceives that her husband would rather dress than do something with her, of if he goes behind her back and he is caught, or if there are more financial resources allocated to the CDing than on the wife, the wife might feel that the husband prioritizes the CDing although these are very loose examples because these sorts of things vary from couple to couple.


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Amy Fakley, you’ve got things all turned around. The market responds to what people want, not the reverse. In the beauty and fashion industries, the market fundamentally addresses people’s needs to attract each other and also to show their socioeconomic status. Since most women are attracted to men and vice versa, the men and women will seek to make themselves attractive to each other through what is currently seen as attractive in any given society. Have you noticed, most media images that advertise beauty and fashion products feature young people, which happens to be the age range when most people are seeking mates? And separate from any attempt to attract the opposite sex, there is also the eternal quest for youth, but this is because youth is prized in our society and these products promise a more youthful appearance. Forty year olds get jobs more than sixty year olds.


It’s true that women are exposed to incessant marketing geared to impossible ideals of beauty (the use of female models who are in the top 5% on the human attractiveness scale and if they’re aren’t, they’re photoshopped to look that way), but that’s a separate issue. A lot of women are rebelling against this.

Reine, thank you 20,000 times for all you do here. You give deep thought to your posts and I know you have been through a lot yourself.

some additional thoughts:
"Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles" - yes, we are wired to fear anything different as a survival instinct. But why fear crossdressing more strongly than other things? Strange foods might kill you as would strange animals. So just trying to get to root cause why presenting as a different gender is so threatening. Robin414 posted link to article about animals that present as other gender.

"I think you have an incomplete picture of how GGs feel generally." - I do admit I do not have a good handle on how others "feel". My brain sees things too logically and too little emotionally. Therefore, I try to logically understand others actions in terms of logic and not emotions. It does not work well. I understand how people do not want to be perceived as something they are not, but it seems the reaction to possible sexual orientation is a great threat than being seen as a golfer when you are not a golfer.

"But, if a crossdresser shows his wife love and attention consistently (if he does prioritize her above the CDing), the wife will be more open to the CDing than when the husband shows a preference for his female presentation." - I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

I am not saying I know it all or I am being fair. I just hope to understand the emotions and fears behind this, and learn if there are ways to move someone into having less fears.

Hugs, Ellen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

"Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles" - yes, we are wired to fear anything different as a survival instinct. But why fear crossdressing more strongly than other things? Strange foods might kill you as would strange animals.

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I don't think that people in general mistrust the CDing any more than strange foods, foreign places, or any unknown situation you might think of that people are unwilling to engage in. A lot of people stay away from strange foods & places even when they know that millions of others eat the foods and live there. I just got back from a visit to North Africa. Some friends were asking me why on earth would I want to go there, just as they might wonder why on earth I'm OK with being in a relationship with a man who explores femininity. But, there is an added element of shame involved in not being true to our anatomical reality, almost as if it's a betrayal (see the next point).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

I understand how people do not want to be perceived as something they are not, but it seems the reaction to possible sexual orientation is a great threat than being seen as a golfer when you are not a golfer.

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Yes, I did mean sexual orientation because this is a fundamental building block of who we are much more than just pastimes or hobbies. Our sexual orientation is what propagates our species! :) Also, the distaste for crossdressing (felt by some and not all people) has to do with a perceived deviation from the very gender norms that has propagated our species, which in turn is perceived by some people as a deliberate rejection of it. And the distaste for this is somehow stronger in men than women. Boys are socialized to believe there is nothing worse in life than to be perceived as a sissy by their peers. Women on the other hand are not socialized to fear appearing strong and competitive, in fact it's the opposite among women ... we're darn happy to escape the confines of subjugated gender that has plagued us for much of human history. Still, people generally seek to belong to their cultural groups and this translates to an aversion of anything that might be perceived as "not right" by our peers. And this applies to women married to men who deviate from the gender norms too. This is why so many CDers and/or their wives do not wish to be out to all their family, friends, coworkers and everyone they know in their day-to-day lives.

All of this is changing of course in our society. Many people are more open to things like same-sex marriage and gender variance than they were a generation ago, but still we as a society haven't reached 100% acceptance and I don't know that we ever will, simply because there will only ever be a small percentage of the population that is same-sex attracted and/or gender variant. We're more prone to universally accept changes that affect most of us rather than just a few of us. And don't forget that it is also much easier to be socially liberal when it comes to situations affecting other people, than when it hits close to home.

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

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I did say the examples I gave were loose because there are so many variables in what makes relationships equitable. For example, does your wife earn the same income as you. Did she know about the CDing at the beginning of the relationship or did she find out after years of marriage and does she feel betrayed. Are the two of you sexually connected, or might she perceive that your sexual interests are diffused. Still, maybe for your wife it has nothing to do with trust, a good balance between the CDing and the attention you give her, or a good sex life, and it is more about going outside of the norms as mentioned above.

Has she told you specifically all the things that bother her about the CDing? If you knew, then maybe the two of you could tackle them one by one and make compromises. Your wife may never take to the CDing and happily participate, but hopefully she will come to recognize that YOU need to do this and she will be willing to provide you with the time and space to do so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

- I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

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Sounds more like you are keeping score. Marriage isn't a competition on who buys what and where and when and how big. One of the best days I had was a simple dinner with a sign board on the garage door like a restaurant would have listing the "menu" Didn't cost much at all. When I hear some one say "I got you ________but you didn't get me anything." I see a person who really doesn't get marriage or life. To me that isn't love , that's buying affection

All of them reasons at once, I gues...?

Lorileah - I don't normally keep tabs, but she has asked me for divorce many times and has already seen a lawyer. She had asked for a printout of all our funds and expected she deserved 50% (despite our state not being a 50/50 state). So since then, despite her calming down, with the help of meds, I have paid closer attention to who is using up the money. She had done the usual of how much I spend on Ellen (maybe $1000 all told) so I wondered what she spent on her looking good. I did not even need to total up what she spends on clothing (and mixed in with clothing for our daughters, so tougher to be fair). I would be happy with fairly equal amount of loving actions - I feel I am the slave that has to do her bidding to be allowed a DADT life.

Reine - she has a professional degree, but chose to stay at home and be a mother. I have earned 50 times what she has despite her ability to earn 6 figures as well. I did not ask her to and was happy to stay home and be the parent early on when she worked weekends and I cared our infant daughter. She knew of the CDing 2 year into the marriage and tolerated it on occasion for 18 years, then stopped. She does not want to discuss any part of it and will not learn about it. Sex life was very good, until she kicked me out of the house for several days and got the lawyer - since then it dropped to once a week. So there is stress in the relationship and I try to take the upper road and give her my affection and time, but she seems to not return it.
Ellen

ClosetED, I hate to get into who has the capacity to earn what and who agreed or didn't agree to forego a salary to stay home. I also stayed home while my kids were growing up and although the family did benefit from it, my ex viewed it in an entirely different light once we were divorcing (at which point I bitterly regretted having foregone my own career in order to stay home and follow my husband around the country while he climbed up the ladder). But, the point I was making about having a wife feel she is the priority can't be answered in terms of how much money the two of you spend on each other, since the two of you do have unequal incomes (it doesn't matter why).

You mention that your wife was somewhat accepting earlier in your marriage but over time this changed. When this happens, it can often be boiled down to two reasons:

1. The needs and behaviors associated with the CDing increased and there has not been enough good faith communication to satisfactorily navigate through all of this.

2. The marriage has deteriorated because of the lack of communication, or because of countless other reasons that couples distance themselves even when there is no crossdressing involved, or both of these, and as the result the couple becomes less willing to work through issues in good faith and come up with compromises.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClosetED

She does not want to discuss any part of it and will not learn about it. Sex life was very good, until she kicked me out of the house for several days and got the lawyer - since then it dropped to once a week. So there is stress in the relationship and I try to take the upper road and give her my affection and time, but she seems to not return it.

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It sounds like she's angry? I think the two of you should find out the deeper reasons why. All of the deeper reasons why. I'm betting it is not just because you enjoy exploring femininity occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Amy Fakley

I think it's an artifact of the specific western (especially American) culture that we live in, and how over the last 80 years or so we've had relentless marketing that seeks to amplify boudaries between genders. It's a pretty common and effective approach to sell things by way of making people feel inferior to their peer group. ... "you're a woman, women have smooth skin. Is your skin smooth enough? Try our exfoliating lotion!" ... "you're a man, men like football. Do you show others you like football enough so that they're sure you're a man? Buy this ugly-ass jersey and solve that problem from a block away!"

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Love this it sums up a lot of stuff I'm feeling! Thank you! I love getting a mani/pedi but most people would consider it feminine. I love it and I'm just taking care of my body.

I think most mainstream folks think it has a bit of perversion associated with it, because it is sometimes enjoyed as a fetish, or is sexually arousing to some. It might explain why some of our
regular GG friends, can deal with and totally accept a Transgender person, rather than just a man who crossdresses. Like a man who cross dresses just does this weird activity, but a transgender woman
really wants to be and IS a woman inside. All conjecture on my part. I'm juts a cross dressing guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Amy Fakley, you’ve got things all turned around. The market responds to what people want, not the reverse. In the beauty and fashion industries, the market fundamentally addresses people’s needs to attract each other and also to show their socioeconomic status. Since most women are attracted to men and vice versa, the men and women will seek to make themselves attractive to each other through what is currently seen as attractive in any given society. Have you noticed, most media images that advertise beauty and fashion products feature young people, which happens to be the age range when most people are seeking mates? And separate from any attempt to attract the opposite sex, there is also the eternal quest for youth, but this is because youth is prized in our society and these products promise a more youthful appearance. Forty year olds get jobs more than sixty year olds.


It’s true that women are exposed to incessant marketing geared to impossible ideals of beauty (the use of female models who are in the top 5% on the human attractiveness scale and if they’re aren’t, they’re photoshopped to look that way), but that’s a separate issue. A lot of women are rebelling against this.

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Indeed! What nearly every single person in the whole world wants more than anything, is to fit into, and be considdered a valued member of their peer group. Yes, the market responds to demand, but I'm not talking about the market, I'm talking about the marketers, and they are an entirely different thing.

A marketer's job is not to respond to the demands of the marketplace, but to create demand in the marketplace. What I'm talking about goes much, much further than unrealistic depictions of beauty (though that is a good small-scale example).

Yes it is true that throughout human history, there have been markets and salespeople, but what has not been static for most of human history is the balance of power. Since the invention of mass media, the power of marketers to bend the shape the society we live in towards maximum profitability has become progressively more and more extreme, to the point that ... I guarantee you right now there are probably 50 different processes running in the background on my phone as I type this ... recording where I am, what news I'm reading, what people I'm talking to, and what I'm saying ... all so that there is the best possible chance that I will be receptive to the next advertisement thrown at me.

You can't fight that. You might as well stand on the beach and try to beat back the waves. It is ubiquitous, and utterly pervasive.

What I am proposing is that where this marketing intersects with gender, we have essentially a billion watt amplifier that distorts existing cultural notions of gender, bending them toward the most extreme ends of the spectrum. This is done because two strategies can reliably sell just about anything in existence: insecurity and sex appeal.

I propose that this is a big aspect of why gender nonconforming behavior so often illicit knee-jerk hostility, which upon thoughtful reflection usually dissapates greatly.

Fascinating thread. I do not disagree with anything so far but an additional aspect: status. It is fine for a woman to display some aspects of male behaviour and dress but not vice versa. Recently a white woman was vilified for pretending to be black when only a few would have problems with the converse. Society has status issues and anyone perceived as going down voluntarily makes others uncomfortable. I am not defending these perceptions - just saying they operate.

* Fear of homosexuality
When a straight, opposite-sex SO sees you beginning to present as the same gender as themselves, it often leads to them feeling you are 'going where they can't accompany you'. A perception that all or part of your life will now consist of you being in a state where they can no longer comfortably 'be your mate' is a very legitimate disruption in the relationship. It's like we've joined a club or a religion that they can't even seek to join themselves. The idea that it isn't a voluntary thing on our part, for most of us, but that there's some sort of 'compulsion' in our minds to do these things, is also very confusing and threatening to them. For most people, they look at cross dressing as something that certainly must be a voluntary choice on our part. Aside from drug addiction, alcoholism or religious zealotry, there are few things in the average person's range of experience that can explain that degree of compulsion to do something that most people would not do. So our apparent 'choice' to do something that separates us from the life they expected to share from us can be perceived as our intentionally cutting them out of part of our lives.

Even for those cross-dressers who truly are 100% straight, and whose opposite sex presentation is not accompanied by any desire to respond intimately to others of their birth gender, and who have no desire to completely switch to being perceived as the opposite gender, there is still the problem that your SO, if they are straight, can feel that they being expected to respond affectionately to what looks like another person of their gender. In other words they have to act like they are gay or lesbian or bisexual, which they probably are not, just to continue to have a 'straight' relationship with your opposite sex presentation self. Again, you are 'going where they can't go', and leaving them behind, for that part of your life while you cross dress.

For those not in a relationship with us, people in general tend to fear what they don't understand. And most straight people don't truly understand gay/lesbian/bisexual people, let alone the idea of a straight person who might like to, or need to, cross dress. We're 'different'. We don't follow the 'expected normal behavior'. They don't know what to actually expect from us, and all too often, their fears run rampant with the worst kinds of speculations about our motives and intentions. The others who they trust may be just as misinformed and fearful, and may reinforce or even strengthen that distrust and hatred of us, out of fear and ignorance. Of course, most of us really are quite harmless, and we're good people. But they don't know that. They hear all sorts of tales about twisted and perverted reasons for activities like cross dressing, and with no ready source of truthful information, they believe the worst of us. And as in my first paragraph, most others can't wrap their minds around the idea that this isn't necessarily a voluntary decision on our part. To them, this must be something we are choosing to do. And they can't comprehend why we would, unless there was some bad reason for it.

* Anger at deception
For any SO, yeah, I can see that. If you've been in a relationship for several years, and they find out that for most or all of that time you've been hiding a significant aspect of your life that is potentially disruptive to the relationship, of course they are going to be angry that you kept that information from them! Again, the perception is likely to be that we are choosing to cross dress. So to them, we have been choosing to do something that is disruptive, and have been hiding it. Certainly, we often have very good reasons for not coming forward with 'the truth' immediately. We fear losing them, for good reason. Coming out often destroys a relationship. Or we are in the closet and fear being outed to others. Or perhaps we believe that it's something we can set aside, for the sake of the relationship - that its something that we can 'kick the habit' on, for their sake. But for most of us, we find that we really can't quit for very long. If it was any other disruptive element, from drug addiction or a gambling problem to a our having a terminal disease, they would be equally upset that we kept it from them. If they perceive it as a choice on our part, that makes it worse. Even if they accept that we have no choice, it comes down to, "Then why didn't you trust me with this information?"

I don't see a woman's makeup or perfume as 'deceptive'. We all know that women don't really smell like flowers or look 'Photoshop perfect' when they hop out of bed.

Now if you see a girl undressing for the first time, and find out only then that her ample bust and shapely waist and hips were all padding and a super-tight corset, I might consider that a bit deceptive. (Oh wait, that's what many of us might do to others if we can pass, with the help of breast forms, hip pads and a corset as well as the makeup and perfume, and don't let the interested person know that we've 'improved the presentation'. For that reason, when I am out socially and someone seems 'interested' in me, I make sure they understand what they re getting into before it gets affectionate...)

* A SO's competitive nature
I would say no, on this count. At least, I wouldn't see it as a 'competition with the other woman'. More like if you were choosing to go out to a 'Gentleman's club' with your buddies on a regular basis and leave her at home, alone. Which is more important to you? Doing things with her, or doing things she can't do with you? Again, if perceived as a choice we are making, you are perceived as choosing to spend less time with them and more time 'doing something else, without them'. If they accept that we have no choice, and if they don't feel like they can 'come long for the ride', it's just as bad, because it makes them feel the relationship is being doomed by some outside force that they can't control.

Now here's a few of my own points:

* The SO's own feelings of inadequacy
Seeing your SO participating in what they perceive as a 'sexual kink' that the don't share an interest in can leave the SO to feel inadequate. "Am I not enough of a woman for him, that he needs to do that to get a thrill?". If there is any sexual component at all to your desire to cross dress, and if seeing you cross dressed does nothing for them, or worse, is a turn-off for them, what does that say about the future of the relationship? And even if there is no sexual component there for you, seeing you in the opposite-gender role could still be a strong turn-off for them. Either way, it makes them feel like they are inadequate - like they can't give you something that you need in your relationship.

* Fear that your sexual orientation will change, and you won't desire them any more.
Even if they have enough self-confidence not to feel inadequate in the face of finding out their SO cross dresses, and even if they are willing to try to be 'bisexual enough' on their part to see you affectionately while in your opposite sex mode, they can and most likely still do fear that your sexual orientation is changing and that you are leaving them behind. One of the first questions a CD or TG person usually gets asked when they come out of the closet to someone is, "Oh my God! Are you gay/lesbian now?" or "Oh! Are you going to get a sex change?" The average SO has good reason to fear a 'Yes' answer to either of those questions. Again, a yes would mean they are being left behind.

* Fear that your cross dressing will lead to your cheating on them with someone else.
If you ever go out alone while dressed, the suspicion will be there that of course you're seeking to have an amorous affair. Even if you don't leave the house, if you lied about the dressing, might you not have lied about where you go and what you do while dressed, as well? If you do go out socially without your SO while dressed, it can be very hard for an SO not to believe that the people you are dancing and drinking with are 'just platonic friends'. And God help you if those suspicions are well founded.

It takes a very special person to continue loving us and to stand by our side as we cross-dress or as we transition, partially or completely, to the opposite of the gender that they knew us as when we formed that relationship. "For better or for worse" isn't usually expected to include something as drastic as your mate changing their gender to yours. Communicating with them, as soon as you can, is usually the best course. Best is to be truthful from the start. But for any of us, there is a very real risk that disclosure will end the relationship.

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Replying to "ClosetED": In my personal experience, I find a high degree of acceptance among gay males and lesbians in gay/lesbian venues. Lesbians in particular seem to adore me when I am out en-femme, and most of my girl side's best friends and partying pals are lesbians. Now mind you, most of either set won't want to date us! But they usually accept us among them as friends and as someone to dance with.

ceera, great insight and post,

ClosetED sounds like she got something(relationship) on the outside working and needs a reason(way) out.

Why?
Homophobia, especially the fear that they might be gay themselves. We saw it when Caitlyn came out; every homophobic male went into crisis mode because if Bruce Jenner, the greatest most masculine of us all, was really feminine, it could 'happen' to any one of them? Oh, the horror!
Fear that a closeted gay man might not hold up his responsibility to his society to defend it, or perhaps be the 'weak link' that allows another cultural group to destroy his own. Women fear that they cannot rely on a man who's not 'all man, all the time'. It all comes down to society's view that women are somehow less able than men. The same old 'I'm a man, and that means I'm better than you' misogynist attitude that's been held by the old boys forever, which is sadly even supported by lots of women as well.

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Originally Posted by Amy Fakley

A marketer's job is not to respond to the demands of the marketplace, but to create demand in the marketplace. What I'm talking about goes much, much further than unrealistic depictions of beauty (though that is a good small-scale example).

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No, no, no! :)

Marketers spends enormous amounts of money each year conducting extensive research on their target demographics. What lifestyles do they have, what type of jobs, what's their price point, what cultural icons do they respond to, what music do they listen to, what do they drive, how do they spend their leisure time, what's the competition doing and what can they do better, etc ... and once they have all that info, they tailor their marketing to grab the target customer's attention away from the competition. But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales.

The only time you can create a demand is when you come up with a brand new product. Apple was very good with this. But, this is not the situation with the fashion or cosmetics industry. The best they can do is respond to their target customers' existing lifestyles. And successful clothing designers not only need to know current design trends, they need to have the ability to forecast future trends by being aware of what's going on in popular culture.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

... But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales...

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Not too many of those (type of men) on this forum... Around here, we're all suckers for make-up and skirts! ;)

Reine and Ceera - great points!
I thought this would make for good general discussion and not as much about me, but explaining my situation may help see why I have these thoughts.
Hugs, Ellen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

No, no, no! :)

Marketers spends enormous amounts of money each year conducting extensive research on their target demographics. What lifestyles do they have, what type of jobs, what's their price point, what cultural icons do they respond to, what music do they listen to, what do they drive, how do they spend their leisure time, what's the competition doing and what can they do better, etc ... and once they have all that info, they tailor their marketing to grab the target customer's attention away from the competition. But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales.

The only time you can create a demand is when you come up with a brand new product. Apple was very good with this. But, this is not the situation with the fashion or cosmetics industry. The best they can do is respond to their target customers' existing lifestyles. And successful clothing designers not only need to know current design trends, they need to have the ability to forecast future trends by being aware of what's going on in popular culture.

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Well, I don't want to take the discussion off topic, and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... however, I think maybe I'm still not clearly explaining my point, and I think it is a good one, so let me try to make it one last time (briefly).

I'm not talking directly about sales or lack thereof, or market theory in general. I'm talking about the unintended consequences of the tactics used in the attempt to make a sale.

You are correct that you cannot sell things people do not want (within reason), but as we all know everyone has different wants and motivations. Marketing, therefore, attempts to make generalizations about what most people want in an attempt to persuade the largest possible number of people to buy something (an average if you will).

In that way, marketing serves to define, reinforce and amplify cultural norms. I suspect where gender is concerned, that this sort of inescapable, generations-long barrage of advertising that inadvertently reinforces only the most popular notions of gender may somewhat contribute to cultural intolerance of behaviors that fall even slightly outside what is today considdered "normal gender expression"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...But, what person on the street will perceive a wife to be lesbian if she is with a man who happens to be presenting as a woman? The wife will be perceived as being in a relationship with a crossdresser (and not another woman) since very few crossdressers are perceived by others as natal females. ...

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Reine, great points all around, but I would counter the above with: the wife will be perceived a a woman who has a cross dressing or transgender friend.

I suspect that the normals would not think that a cross dresser is even married!

Many of the heavy hitters have already responded better than I could. Such thoughtful and great responses!

I'll only comment that I don't see society as fearing cding or anything else that describes a male at birth representing a female. Hate, disgust, repulsion... all those apply. I just don't see it as fear. Same with homophobia. That term gets thrown around a lot. I don't think fear has anything to do with it.

I check off a lot of the boxes that we talk about on here, and I guarantee NOBODY is afraid of me! I'm the one who's afraid!

BTW, Ceera, great post. Been at this for a while, huh!

There should be a Reine Center for Gender Study! In my experience at least, there's no way you get this kind of valuable insight from a counselor or therapist.

A lot of answers have it pretty well covered. Fear of the unknown. Or, of that which is not understood. Like the line in the batman begins movie which holds a lot of truth, we always fear what we don't understand. I think even we CDers often fear ourselves, at least in the beginning because we don't understand why we are different. 'We just are' doesn't answer much.

As for S/O's, it is the entire variety of things mentioned. But, each one is unique to themselves, and some of these things mentioned will effect one more than another. Some fear the backlash, some have issues with the femininity itself. Some feel cheated, or duped and are angry. Some feel they are losing the man they love (and some are totally, most are to some extent) For some, it is the beliefs they have had all their lives about how wrong it is. 30+ years, it takes more than just a few days or weeks to change an entire belief, and especially since there has never been anyone really to challenge that belief until us.

A couple of quick things I read and will remark on. I believe the OP mentioned something about finances, and how much the wife spends on herself as opposed to the CDer. I don't think this is ever a good point of discussion. The wife will spend whatever amount of money on cosmetics and clothes etc etc. Even though the CDing spouse may spend less, they are still spending money on their male selves, so in reality, even though the CD spending may not be as much as the wife spends, they are in effect spending on two different people. Combine that and the amount may actually become higher than what the wife spends. Overall, I just don't think it is ever a good line of reasoning.

As has been said from just about every GG on here, they do not feel they are lesbians because of the marriage to the CDer, but they may feel they are being forced into a lesbian relationship... there is a difference there, and It was not a choice in the beginning, or there wouldn't be an issue with it. So that goes for those wives who do have issues with it. They were not told, or not told all, or it became a lot more later on, and now they feel they have to choose to live in a lesbian relationship, even though they are not. I think that can be a very powerful feeling for many wives. It perhaps causes them to feel a disconnect. (some) They are not lesbians, but now the man they married is more of a woman, or now all woman, so they are living this lesbian relationship yet they are not. How often have we seen posts from GG's or from CD members on here that their wives struggle with intimacy with them post reveal. Many GG's have a very hard time interacting romantically while their partner is dressed, and it can often spill over to when they are not dressed. While society expectations do cause some of this, I think biology is also a cause as well.