Wives and CDing husbands

OK there have been a lot of threads lately about how wives place ultimatums or demands on their husbands.
The old If I had known I wouldn't have married you line we hear so much.
I realize you should tell your spouse to be that you CD so it doesn't become a problem later on.
I know some guys don't get hit by the "bug" or realize what they are until after they are married.
But what I don't get is why don't you guys stand up for yourselves?
You have wants and needs too but silently suffer and never assert yourselves almost like your wife has some kind force field over you.
Personally if my wife said if I had known I would have never married you I would be hurt even devastated that she didn't care about me as a viable human being and cast aside all the good times and intimate moments you have had.
To me it just shows she really doesn't consider your feelings at all and only thinks of herself.

You made a case Tracii for how pervasive the gender binary is and how basic human attraction can be. A CD/TG reveal more likely than not tears at the fabric of the relationship. Think about the typical responses we hear about: Are you gay? Will you transition? Not to mention that right or wrong (probably mostly right, you cannot blame anyone for feeling this way) how a woman then goes on to question her own adequacy: Am I not attractive enough? Or to proclaim their own sexuality in the face of such a revelation: I'm not attracted to women.

Post-marriage disclosure must also overcome the years of normalcy, particularly the good times which ramp up the timidity factor for fear of wrecking everything (which is a distinct possibility not to be ignored). Not to mention the complexities of what the relationship has built, home/children/career/dreams for the future.

Of course these things are just the tip of the iceberg and are not easy to overcome. Add to that the shame that many feel due to years of hiding this part of their being and you have a recipe for what we see time and time again.

I'm all for your suggestion of being assertive but it is a fallacy to suggest to any woman that "I am the guy you have always known, just with different clothes". Fact of the matter is that in post-marriage disclosure, the gender-binary apple cart she has known for her entire life was just run over by a bus, never to return in the same form. Making things worse, most guys harbor a fantasy that their SO will become willing participants post-disclosure which adds further tension when many, if not most women recoil into DADT or worse (through no fault of their own). As such, I can totally understand why any woman might say "I wouldn't have married you had I known". Remember, this is our burden for which we have had time for self-discovery including communication with others to get to a place where disclosure becomes a viable option. She hasn't had that option and chances are good she'll have a difficult time for her POV to evolve because of having no one to talk to.

There are no easy answers and I'm the last person to try to come up with one since my disclosure was very early in the relationship and long before we married. I am beyond grateful that I was young, dumb and bold enough to make that decision as I wouldn't wish the risks that come with disclosure deep into marriage on my worst enemy. At the same time, I tend to have more empathy for the woman in these situations because it isn't reasonable to expect them to undo years and years of hard-wiring upon the big reveal. Some women can, many cannot or will not, none should be faulted.

Hi Traci
For me I think there is a very fine line between being assertive with our feelings and wants/needs and our wives feeling they've been betrayed.
Alot of wives also see crossdressing in the same unaccepting way the general public do and to bring them round needs a softly softly approach.
I guess for a gg there alot insecurities that will surface too .
I certainly dont want be the one to blame for wrecking my relationship
Emma xx

It's a pure living hell, to have that light bulb go off years after marriage, and kids, and a mortgage and all of it.

Everyone blames you. Like you had a damn choice, like you just woke up one day and thought "well it's a slow day, guess I'll decide that I've always been a girl inside!" ... as if you wanted this. Even here, in our own CD safe space, everyone will blame you for not having told sooner and the rest of the guilt trip.

I've not had an ultimatum directed at me (yet), but I have given up so ... so much that I should never have given up. I should have been more assertive, for sure, but I wasnt. Not just in my marriage, but life in general as well.

Probably it stems from decades and decades of self hate to be honest. It's hard to be assertive when you have zero self worth. In marriage, it's hard to have a backbone when literally everyone you love and everything you've ever worked for hangs in the balance and the person you're trying to stand up to holds all the cards. All it takes is "judge, he's a perverted ass crossdresser that's why", and you're done. And you love your kids, and you really really don't want that to happen.

So you fold. That's why so many of us are doormats (in my opinion, speaking as a doormat myself).

Not that it isn't a harrowing experience finding out after so long from the SO's perspective. I know that it is, and I know it sucks for everyone involved, but it is how it is.

Tracii, I don't think that there have been "a lot" of ultimatum threads lately but even the few that I have seen are incomplete. What ELSE is going on in the relationship besides cross dressing? We never get to read that part.

I also think it is quite understandable for a wife to wonder or question if she "would have married" this person knowing what she knows now. What we read in their posts is that while this question is asked, the wife is NOT leaving over cross dressing.

Why would these guys stand up for themselves? They have already shown that is generally not the type of person that they are. Sure they can say all they want that they thought their dressing days were behind them and that they knew they would never don a bra again in their lives..... but really...... I think (my personal opinion here people) they lacked the courage to be honest about who they are and what they like. Even if it was something they didn't think they would ever do again. So fast forward years..... what magically happened over that time period that suddenly has given them the courage they never had? Nothing. So most of them sulk away and hide...... fearful of exposing themselves. Thus if their wife says something derogatory about them, they accept it, because it is what they think of themselves.

For me..... I wanted to tell my wife everything, about myself, I could think of prior to getting married. Even if they were things that I had only done once and never planned to do again. I wanted to tell her who I was, to see if she would be willing to accept ALL of me, even the bad stuff. It wasn't important to her, it was important to me that I find someone who was willing to accept who I was in the past, who I am in the present, and who I might be in the future.

To me..... whenever I see these ultimatum posts, or posts of wives who find panties in the wash, or those who speak of DADT relationships..... all I see are people, TWO people, who do NOT speak with each other. Cool, as long as that works for you. But not for me. That does not work for me. If it works for you, cool, have fun with that. Honestly, it doesn't seem as though most of you actually enjoy it though.

If a CD faced with that negativity doesn't stand up for herself, could it mean that she too believes she is on untenable ground? That CD may have also bought into the gender binary and believes she is somehow in the wrong? I was raised in that paradigm and I feared/hated my uncontrollable feminine desires for a long time until I learned to embrace them. It's not an easy road and I hope younger generations never have to deal with the same rigidity I did.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

... I think (my personal opinion here people) they lacked the courage to be honest about who they are and what they like. Even if it was something they didn't think they would ever do again. ....

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Can't argue this point. I have often written that it was simple cowardice that stopped me from telling my wife for years and years. BUT... time and societal changes are relevant to this story. How much easier is it today to come out than it was 30 years ago or more? Would someone with the exact same "amount" of courage 30 years ago be more likely or would it be easier to come out today?

I somewhat agree Jennifer. It is never easy to come out. And when I did with my wife.... It was about twenty years ago. It took me another twenty to actually be comfortbale enough with who I am to begin telling others, like my friends, family, and coworkers.

I think that Traci has brought up an interesting point. I agree that many, if not the majority, of the posts about SO's reactions that I have read here over the last 9 years, have made me wonder why they are being so docile in their relationships, when sometimes a more direct and honest approach may give better long term results. I am not talking about telling before getting into a real and serious relationship, or even why one should after being in that relationship for a longer period of time. As many have said continually here, including me, good communication is a must for any relationship to last through the small and large disruptions and bumps in their lives. If one cannot civilly discuss smaller issues, the chances of resolving bigger issues becomes much more difficult.

I am talking about the need to not totally capitulate to an SO's negative and sometimes unreasonable reaction. One needs to stand up for themselves, diplomatically and in a caring way, as they honestly and openly discuss who they are, or think that they are, what they like to do and what they need to do. Making false promises to appease the other party will usually fail over the long term. I personally cannot live in a relationship where my questions will not be answered. Therefore, a true DADT situation would not work for me. Maybe an "out of sight, out of mind" situation would, but if I have a need to talk about it with my SO, then I expect and require that she do so, maybe not today, but within a reasonable time after I bring it up. If she doesn't or will not discuss it after all my efforts to help her do so, including the recommendation for some type of third party intervention, then that would be a big negative about her that would take a lot of special effort on her part to bring the relationship back to a workable and enjoyable equilibrium point. It would also signal the possible start to the dissolution of the relationship. No one left and hoping to recapture what they had before.

I see in many of those reveal posts here a lack of confidence in dealing with their spouse's reactions to this new information. I am not talking about immediately after telling, but much further down the road, years in many cases. One key thing to being respected is showing that what one does or who they is not necessarily a bad and unacceptable thing., and that they have the right to be themselves. This is very hard for many and maybe most trans people. Why a lot of people do not stand up for themselves is understandable. Some has already been mentioned above. With the revealer starting at a disadvantageous point, revealing something that is not socially acceptable, they start out trying to implement workable damage control, part of which is to not be too strong in their position, i.e. take it or leave it, so they give in immediately to their SO's negative reactions and subsequent unworkable demands. Other reasons could include the fear of the possibility of an extremely negative reaction by the SO, like revealing the situation to family friends and in a few rare cases, to employers. That can have very negative social and income impacts. All serious points to consider in each unique situation.

We may think that we know our SO and how they may react, but mostly we do not when we enter into this non-sociably accepted practice of dressing as the opposite gender for our own enjoyment and needs. Normally, the SO knows something about our favorite pastimes and hobbies, like watching sports or participating in them, and can become accustomed to the increase in time and effort that we may devote to them over time, even to the point of spending too much time and starting to ignore our other family and relationship obligations. But revealing a new and mostly unwanted activity into the mix can be very upsetting and thus lead to a totally different reaction than could have been previously anticipated.

Tracii,
This question was posted fairly recently, to answer it is not a simple one, and we all have different circumstances to consider.

A young couple with no children is totally different to a middle aged guy with kids growing up , mortgage to pay maybe in my case a business to run .I've explained before why I didn't make an issue of it when I married, but when the pressure finally builds mostly in our forties there so much to consider before coming out and issuing you own ultimatums. Most of us have to discover ourselves before expecting to lay down any ground rules and we can never predict how our partners will react to the bombshell .

I know I've also commented before that this does go both ways, our partners may not have been totally open with us when we married, looking back my wife may have just tolerated sex to achieve the family she wanted, was I cheated ? No matter I still have two great children .

At the end of the day we are in a no win situation, most of us live with degrees of tolerance we either make the most of what we can work out or pack our bags.

Nadine, (great picture). I agree with you. I began experiencing needs when I put my first pair of hose on at age 5 or 6. We have a compulsive behavior pattern that satisfies our pleasure principles....we've all experienced the elation when we dress. Like you, before we got married, I told her everything, assuming she'd frown and look for the exit door. Surprisingly, she asked more and more questions, to which I truthfully answered. We did a lot of reading. Her primary fear was I might be gay, bi or a transsexual. No to all. We married and remain so. She loves to see me dressed. When she buys me something I need, her "deal" is "one for you...one for me". No Problem there. We live in a small nosy town, consequently must be totally discrete. She considers me passable, with help from her...especially makeup...but I'm learning. (smile). We've gone out together to a near by mall...two ladies shopping, movie, etc. My frustration is so few, if any women wear hose. Hose, of all kinds remain my #1. I wear them anyway...even with sandals ! so there !

Teresa I see what you are saying but thats not my point here. I realize there are a lot of you that are too scared to let anything out into the open.
Business,home ,family all that stuff so lets not beat a dead horse here.
My point is the men/CD's that WILL NOT stand up for themselves when the SO finds out and goes completely off her nut saying things like if I had known I wouldn't have married you.
I understand how the SO feels and her questions need to be answered but you guys that shut down put your tails between your legs and just say yes dear,I will dear and basically play lap dog.
OMG talk about making her feel worse, now her man has no guts and won't stand up for himself.
If you want to be viewed as a spineless wiennie boy fine have fun I won't stop you.
Stop and think if she grills you over CDing and you stand up to her and say "yeah I do it and I like it" or " I did it when I was a young kid " at least she will see you aren't going to fold up and maybe she will have some respect for you for speaking up for yourself.
Maybe sometimes being a man works even if you are wearing panties.

I get the feeling that those of us who don't 'stand up for ourselves' are being accused of cowardice, because we don't want to deal with all the ramifications of what happens when we do come out. And you're right; because most of the things that happen, will be negative. You don't hear about towns rallying around the crossdresser, proclaiming him a hero. But you do hear about groups villianizing us for what we do. The idea that the best defense is a loud offense isn't exactly what is needed in this case. Anger and demanding that we be able to crossdress whenever we want, with whoever we want, isn't going to gain us any points with the woman in our life. You can't just demand that she suddenly like having a husband dressed up as a woman. Life doesn't work that way. That isn't going to work any better than when women cut their hair off, stop using make up, and wear sweats all the time, then demand that men like her that way, and that we'd better get used to it.

Just because you become a militant crossdresser, isn't going to make women suddenly find you sexy. More likely, they'll think you're off your rocker, and want nothing to do with you. Then they call their lawyer, and try to figure out how to get you out of their life, so they can find a 'real man'.

I agree with you and would feel the same

Sometimes_miss, I do not think that Traci is talking about taking a militant stand. Neither am I. I believe the idea is to not put your tail between your legs and become a yes Mommy, whatever you say Mommy type of person. No demanding and yelling back when yelled at. But do own up to who you are and do not take all SO threats and complaints at face value. There is nothing wrong with defending ones self when appropriate, with logical and calm words, the truth of course. There is also no reason not to expect that the SO should, not may, sit down and calmly discuss what is going on and listen with an open mind and heart.

I honest to God thought when I got married it would go away.

It hasn't.

And...it won't...be prepared.

Its always you deep in the closet types that seem to get offended and why I don't know because I wasn't referring to you closet girls.
You can choose not to step out of the closet I am fine with that really I am.
My point was for those that get "found out" or "come out" and the SO has a hissy fit and says mean hateful things out of ignorance and lack of respect of their partner they loved more than anything 5 mins before they found out about the dressing.
Those are the girls I am talking to not you closet girls but I figured you all would post all your reasons anyway and call me everything but a milk cow.

Oh, believe me, you're hurt and devastated.

When the discussion disintegrates to this, she's thinking about getting a lawyer. You still love her. You don't want a divorce, and this is the response you've already played out in your head. There is no defence. She's saying how she feels. You can't defend yourself against her feelings. They're her feelings. You know she can not only divorce you. She can ruin you. Hardly a time to "man up". That ship has sailed.

I don't think this as as simple as you should have said something. I'll speak for myself, first of all we are ashamed and hide it , hoping it will go away. No-one I knew did this , no TV shows said it was ok to be this, and certainly no girls I knew said they wanted a guy who dresses as a girl. Then you have your ups and downs and think you might have it beat. I met my wife and fell in love quickly, I didn't think she would understand and to be honest the first year was so special, that I didn't think I'd ever dress again. She was pretty open so I didn't think she would care so long as I didn't do it anymore. (bad idea). Then you have kids, and life happens...somewhere it comes back with a vengeance when things just aren't perfect, or the urge comes or whatever...ITS BACK. you either tell, get caught or something in between...and your old enough to want her to know...then your back to shame for lying, ashamed to be something "so terrible" and you lie in the weeds and just hope she will tolerate panties, or a bra, or makeup or whatever....you just want someone to tolerate you and accept you.
I love my wife allow I mean a real lot...and I want her to want me. I think we all want to be wanted and accepted...Thats my take.

Trisha, you nailed it for me almost to a T. It's just not that simple and love and life can push it back into the weeds for a while. Then the shame and fear of hurting your loved one and life just moves on.

Y'all are so defensive when someone calls you out.
Maybe you don't feel you have the right to be happy I don't know.
If you want to be miserable the rest of your life and die a broken man the by all means let your wife run your life.
Myself I just couldn't do that I have the right to be me.
If I had a partner I never told and he found out he could be mad at me sure but I would hope he thought enough of me as a partner to try and work things out.
Not spew hateful words.

So I have something to add to this, I did stand up for myself, I have had court dealings with this not once but twice. Yes I got caught, Initially she said she understood when I told her, truthfully she didnt, she began asking questions, A lot of them I answered I dont know, I didnt really then, it was 10 years ago or so. The thing is even if thats an honest answer it isnt what your SO wants to hear or needs to hear. Eventually we got a situation that was 1 day Im ok with you to I dont know why you do this accompanied with anger. I had 1 ex who knew about me, Somehow they hooked up. What are te chances lol? Anyway I dont know what was said but soon after My SO left me with my 2 kids. I got taken to court. We settled finally, I got joint custody atypical arrangement. A few years go by, My oldest is now manipulating the situation for her own benefit with Mom in the background also manipulatiing. Stupid me I just didnt see it all. Papers served my whole uneasy world collapsed in. I blamed myself, I blamed being bad, Im a crossdresser, I deserve what I get, any rate I fought her. Court case goes on & on 2 1/2 years worth. I was a nervous wreck, I survived by focusing on anything I could concentrate on, even dressing for stress relief, eventually that didnt even work. Anyway I made it to court day. I appeared confident & calm, I was very scared. So during this to my own attorneys dismay I had a Guardian Ad Litem hired. She, yes She, very liberal gal, a true angel. I knew shed realize the situation deep down, but it didnt change my fear.She said she didnt care what I was and it was irrelevant, had nothing to do with me being a parent. She discovered the manipulation on my ex's part, it all blew up in her face. I called her bluff and I won. In the end really what did I win? She has turned my daughter against me, but I ran her out of money, I destroyed her faith in her attorney. I suppose I won a part of what I am today. So all those that fear, LIFE does go on, No I hated it, I feared it. Im sure I was close to a breakdown, but I am stronger today than I used to be.

Tracii's point is well taken. Of course, everyone's relationship is a bit different. However u 2 make it work is ok!:thumbsup:

Even tho I didn't begin dressing until after my ex and I split, I accept much of the blame for our break up. For years, my "sweet" wife became more and more demanding. I hated the whining and complaining. But, I hated the emotional fites even more! So, I gave in to her on the issues I didn't feel were worth going to war over. Most of it was about money. That became a pattern in our relationship. When I gave in and she pushed all the more. In time I resented both her and myself.:sad:

In therapy, our counselor quickly pointed this out. She suggested instead of arguing with her, telling how her belittling and nagging bothered me. When I began doing that, I felt better about my wife and our relationship. But, my now spoiled ex hated me standing up to her suddenly.:eek:

It was too late for me and my marriage. But, it may NOT be for u. Believe me, if u let your partner walk all over u, it will affect your relationship sooner or later!

My issue is with marrieds that stay together long after the love and sex has gone. I feel life is too short for that! But, that's an issue for another thread.:straightface:

You stood up for yourself and I commend you for that Mykaa.
Its never easy and feelings get hurt but life is not always a walk in the park.
You have to suck it up and go on come hell or high water.
My first wife told me she would take me for everything but I won everything even custody of my daughters 10 and 5.
Mine got the clothes on her back and I was nice enough to give her a van that was on its last legs.

My wife has always been in the drivers seat and after 35 years of marrige she doing her best to keep it that way!

About 3 years ago, in a fit of frustration, my wife made that very "had I known, I'd never have married you" statement. Yesterday, my wife not only pointed out two skirts and two dresses to me, she actually took me to them, told me I would look good in them, and encouraged me to buy them.

It wasn't easy for either of us to get the where we are now. I stood up to her by continuing to love her, being honest with her, and educating her. To her credit she eventually fought off her instinct to resist and reject. We still disagree on a few issues, but I believe we will find ways to resolve them.

I agree with you Traci, we need to stand up for ourselves.


Karen

I didn't "stand up for myself" in the way that's being suggested here. After the failure of my first marriage (after my wife discovered my secret), I was free of all restraints, and I binged on crossdressing for a while. But within a couple of years, I wanted a real sex life with a real woman. And although I harbored vivid fantasies of how crossdressing could be part of such a real-life relationship, I didn't think I was likely to find a woman who would go for that. I knew what kind of a failure dishonesty could lead to, so I decided to give up my dressing. The woman I ended up with in a "til death do us part" relationship--and it was her death that ended it--had a marvelous libido that satisfied MOST of my desires. That was enough for me. I still had plenty of fantasies, but my sexual energies were expressed in a very conventional man-woman way. While I denied myself something that was a part of me, I don't feel deprived or cheated in what I've gotten out of life. I feel truly lucky (because it's more luck than an achievement on my part), and blessed.

This has been and probably will be a compellng topic as long as this site will exist. There are many reasons why someone would remain in the closet, and having a vengeful wife telling the whole world about your fancys can be disastrous! From my point of view nothing could be worse than to have two people with two different libidos. Then you add some CDing into the mix... Even in an average household there are enough problems in the sex department without adding anything else.

I am firmly in the tell your spouse camp when it comes to CDing, but I am one the the fortunate ones who has acceptance. There is an expression that goes, "happy wife, happy life", and though I don't agree totally with this, I believe it is totally true when it comes to sex. Anything that is satisifying and rewarding will be wanted in a greater amount. Duh, why do you think fetishes exist, because they are satisifying and rewarding! If a wife is unhappy, then the partner needs to find ways to bring happiness and reward into the relationship.

Ultimatums are never good, compromise, finding a middle ground, is what is needed. If that is DADT, then so be it for now. Love softens a relationship, a soft, gentle relationship changes easier, than hard, rigid relationships. Amor vincit omnia...love conquers all things...

It is extremely difficult to get the wife to accept hubby's CDing. Will be pure luck if she accepts (even without positively encouraging). Still better if she herself crossdresses; so you can enjoy role reversal.

We all know that ultimatums don't work. We can agree until we are blue in the face but the CDing won't really go away until we get a handle on it, make it our own and choose whether to do or not. Only when we are at the helm with these desires are they manageable. :)

First of all every situation is different, people are different and the cultures that we come from or live in dictate one form of communication or another. There are some basic tenants here about "coming out to the wife, girlfriend or SO". It is easier now than ever before but the same problematic exposures still ring true------"WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME BEFORE" "WHAT ELSE ARE YOU HIDING". I think that we (the people) that have confessed to dressing have heard all this and more, was it worth it???? How much more stress did you put yourself in or how much more stress did you put your SO in????? sometimes it's just better to keep your mouth shut and enjoy your self proclaimed solitude.

Molly

Each situation is unique. In my case, mine just wanted out. She filed a no-contest divorce, wanted nothing but her clothing, a few miscellaneous items and left. A heart to heart with my mom-in-law told me she hated my house, her life, and had a good many mental issues that I had no knowledge about. Actually, her's were far worse than I ever knew. Our divorce got me out of coming home to find her dead.(!!!) What discussion we had about my dressing was mild in comparison to what was going through her mind. One cannot solve mental issues with a spouse, when the spouse doesn't talk about it.

Really, I couldn't get a straight answer out of her after she filed on me. (Thought I deserved one after 23 years of marriage, but I never got one) I did figure out one thing. I Was living with a stranger.

About 2-3 times a year, I get a blocked call from her, just so she can check on me. (By chance, that one came yesterday) The last one I answered was three years ago, and it infuriated me. She'd ask personal questions, but I wasn't allowed to ask anything about her. I just ignore them now, why put myself through that aggravation.

We who were married can give you some clues in dealing with your dressing and your SO. Since we're not there, we don't know the circumstances, we can't read her mind. All we can do is let you vent. But we sure didn't have the right answers. We did, however come out of it being able to dress whenever we want to.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Teresa I see what you are saying but thats not my point here. I realize there are a lot of you that are too scared to let anything out into the open.
Business,home ,family all that stuff so lets not beat a dead horse here.
My point is the men/CD's that WILL NOT stand up for themselves when the SO finds out and goes completely off her nut saying things like if I had known I wouldn't have married you.
I understand how the SO feels and her questions need to be answered but you guys that shut down put your tails between your legs and just say yes dear,I will dear and basically play lap dog.
OMG talk about making her feel worse, now her man has no guts and won't stand up for himself.
If you want to be viewed as a spineless wiennie boy fine have fun I won't stop you.
Stop and think if she grills you over CDing and you stand up to her and say "yeah I do it and I like it" or " I did it when I was a young kid " at least she will see you aren't going to fold up and maybe she will have some respect for you for speaking up for yourself.
Maybe sometimes being a man works even if you are wearing panties.

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I'd say men who have this attitude should not be married. If they are married they are usually married to women who are "milk toast." I've seen it time and time again over my seven decades on this earth. The man wants a submissive wife who will cower in her place because the husband rules the roost. More power to women who will not let their husbands run over them at will.

If you enter a contract having misrepresented a material set of facts, you get what you deserve. Don't go crying in your beer because your partner has her own set of expectations. If you cannot renegotiate the contract because a woman will not cave into a new set of terms, then get out of the contract. I find your comments crude and offensive.

Stephanie you need to understand as I have stated before I was in those mentally abusive types of marriages so I do know what its like. I'm not one of those abusive males that think the woman HAS to be submissive to the husband quite the contrary actually.
So you get offended when I say that men need to stand up for themselves and they deserve to be happy just as much as the female? Whats wrong with you?
You seem to have missed the point.
My point is if your SO finds out your secret and starts saying mean hurtful things its not fair of her not to listen to the mans side of the story.
There could be many reasons he dresses but not loving his wife is not one of them I'm sure. He doesn't dress to hurt his wife intentionally would be safe to say too so its not a willful act of hate for his wife but her saying mean hurtful things is a hateful thing to do.
You need some thicker skin Stephanie.

Tracii, I think I read you 100%. It's your selection of words. It's the manner in which you express yourself. It may seem hurtful to you that a wife would say "If I had known you were a cross dresser I would not have married you!" She may have some moral objection to cross dressing. Cross dressing may have been or would be a deal breaker in a marriage.

I really do not expect you to see my point. "Spineless wiennie dog" "Shut down put your tails between your legs" "Play lap dog"

You do not have to worry about the thickness of my skin. I have absorbed a lot over the years which has toughened my hide. I have real trouble accepting anyone expressing themselves in a hurtful manner. Do you not think your choice of words towards members of the forum is not hurtful? I sense that you were really hurt in your prior marriages based on your choice of words. And, I totally get the point, but, your expressiveness is not civil. When I use to read comments posted after a news story I found anonymity affords the opportunity to express oneself without any consequences.

I got married to my cd after finding out. So I think my opinion on this is different. But I feel for the wives that find out years into marriage with kids and homes on the line. I can understand why an ultimatum gets made. Is it fair? Maybe not. Reasonable? Maybe. Expected? Sometimes. I think that even if you know that you haven't been decieving them for 20 years, it's hard as a wife to find out something new. And something that in the end has the power to change how yo self identify. Ultimatums get made when wives feel cornered, pigeon holed, lied to, or surprised.

When a man comes out after marriage a wife is suprises by the knowedge that the person she married is not the same. While you know that you are the same person, that is not always obvious to a wife.

Ultimatums are a power play when women feel that the rug has been pulled out beneath them. And then I think the cder doesn't stand up for themselves because they also are also struggling with the wives poor reaction.

It's hard to hear, I never would have married you. And I understand that can feel like an attack. But as a wife, that phrase can mean, this threatens my personal identity, or threatens how I have felt about my own sexuality, or simply I am not attracted to women and a man dressed as a woman wouldn't have been my first choice in a life partner.

That must suck to hear, but is probably the most honest a wife will be through this process, it doesn't mean she doesn't love you, doesn't understand, or won't come to terms. But it can mean, I feel tricked into this marriage under false pretenses. How can I vow to love someone who didn't bother to be honest with me from day one. And, had I known all of this prior to marriage I might have not made the choice to marry you. I feel like this is a reasonable response, to what can feel like an ultimate betrayal.

Just my 2c.

Stephanie If being honest equates to being hurtful in your world then we live in different worlds.
You would rather lie and be miserable? That isn't a healthy way to exist.
No one else got offended just you so I must have hit a nerve.
I never suggested anyone be an asshole to their wife just let your feelings be heard thats all.

Tracii, VERY well written post and I agree with you 110%! Even if you take the CDing out of it, I see a lot of guys bow down to their wives for no apparent reason other than she is a control freak of some sort. I have never had a relationship like that and it baffles me how so many can accept that and live with it. I would go nuts. Where is it written that you surrender all your feelings, wants and needs?

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

No one else got offended just you so I must have hit a nerve.

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Oh, you definitely hit a nerve. Big time. Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing and reading words lacking any sense of decorum. People seem to have lost the ability to express oneself without denigrating others.
My disgust has nothing to do with the underlying premise that you are trying to put forth. It's your choice of words. They do nothing than to polarize a discussion. Yes, you hit a nerve. Ive read other postings of yours and held back from making a comment. This time you just crossed the line. Try being decent and not inflammatory when making a comment.

Moderator's note; Yellow card

Let's keep it civil and non personal here......

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

But what I don't get is why don't you guys stand up for yourselves?
You have wants and needs too but silently suffer and never assert yourselves almost like your wife has some kind force field over you.
Personally if my wife said if I had known I would have never married you I would be hurt even devastated that she didn't care about me as a viable human being and cast aside all the good times and intimate moments you have had.
To me it just shows she really doesn't consider your feelings at all and only thinks of herself.

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It's complex for a lot of crossdressers. Every crossdresser that marries without informing their wife beforehand has made a serious mistake, and breached trust. It is entirely unfair to the wife. She believes she's married XYZ and instead finds out she's married UVWXYZ. She didn't sign up for this. No, marriages are not static and people change. But changing is one thing; being deceived is quite another.

Then there's the issue of kids. You tell her, she goes ballistic, but there's kids...so you don't rock the boat. You go underground again, and try to keep the marriage together for the kids' sake. Throw in messed up finances, lives deeply entangled, the insane cost of divorce, the messed up relationships with extended family who will want to know why. It's a mess.

Then there's the aspect that this is not 'normal'. Since we're not 'normal', it's automatically us that are in the wrong. Society does NOT accept crossdressing. All the LGBT rights advocacy that has gone on over the last few years is great. Same sex couples can not get married and have legal recognition. That was a decades long fight. But, even among the LGB community, the "T" part is something that is looked down upon. The outright hatred openly displayed by millions of Americans towards transgendered individuals is absolutely unreal. The millions that despise the LGB portion have slowly learned that society is increasingly not with them on this point. Even if they retain their hatred for the LGB community, they speak it far less frequently than 20 years ago. The "T" part? Still openly reviled. It's considered a disease, a psychological disorder. Proof of that is what has happened in North Carolina, and the many voices that have come out in support of it, and the Target policy and the millions that signed a petition against Target over it. Let's be clear... We are NOT welcome in society.

Now, take that and place it in the context of marriage. A wife then has to deal with having a husband that, were it out in the open, would be openly reviled. She now has to accept her husband having a secret life, a secret she can't share with anyone, ever.

Then of course, there's the base attraction aspect of it. Most women are not in any way attracted to a man who is feminine. Seeing a man crossdressed is very often an active turn off. Very few and far between are the women who are actively turned on by it. I've been with exactly _1_ woman who was (and considered myself lucky), (and no, she is not my wife, and again I consider myself lucky :) ). Add in that it's not just when crossdressed. How many of us have shaved legs and other constant cues that you are not 100% masculine? A wife who is not at all attracted to this now has to deal with having a husband to whom she's not 100% attracted anymore. Flip it around. We love wearing women's clothes, being all dressed up, heels, dresses, jewelry, makeup. How can anyone NOT like this? But, imagine...just for a moment imagine...your wife decides she wants to have a beard, not shave her legs, not wear women's clothes, nor wear heels. Prior to marrying, your wife was quite feminine. Then she comes out and tells you she really enjoys crossdressing, and wants to present as more masculine. How many of us would find THAT easy to accept?

Our society feeds this notion that little girls are to grow up and find their knight in shining armor. They are not brought up to find their knight in shining white wedding dress. There is almost certainly not a single mother that ever tells her daughter "Honey, if you are fortunate you will find a man who crossdresses!"

It's really a very, very bad deal for most women.

Exactly Julie if the tables were turned the old not in my back yard term would have most here singing a different tune.

Honesty in the beginning is something that needs to be done if you already CD, to not tell is not fair to the woman.
If its something that happens after you are married then honesty still plays a big part hers as well as yous, get it out on the table and discuss it like adults.
Thats where some guys have a problem they can't admit they enjoy dressing to their wife.
She will either hate you for it and for not telling her or she will love you anyway and deal with it but be glad you told her.She may even still respect you for being honest.
Stephanie my intent was not to be mean to anyone just be honest. If you want to fault me for being honest then go ahead.
Sometimes the truth needs to be expressed and dealt with. How you choose to deal with your situation is up to you.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

I see a lot of guys bow down to their wives for no apparent reason other than she is a control freak of some sort. I have never had a relationship like that and it baffles me how so many can accept that and live with it. I would go nuts. Where is it written that you surrender all your feelings, wants and needs?

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Ever hear the expression, "happy wife, happy life". What a crock, this is tantamount to living as someones door mat. Marriage is supposed to be a 50/50 proposition, they never are, but at least make a honest attempt.

True, CDing may be difficult for many to accept, but there is no attempt with an ultimatum.

I came out to my wife about my CD'ing almost 3 years ago. It's still a work in progress. She barely tolerates it basically. It all came out when she found one of my Cosmo's. I've been reading and collecting Cosmo since I was 14 and have a huge collection which had been secret from her since we've known each other. I hated keeping it secret but was terrified she would reject me or make me get rid of my much loved collection - that indeed would kill me! When she found that Cosmo, all the questions came out - was I gay? (no), did I ever wear women's clothes (yes - some lingerie). She has been quite accepting of my Cosmo collection, but not happy at all with me wearing lingerie. I'm so desperate for her understanding and acceptance, but I am not getting anywhere. I've tried in vain to get her to read articles on cross-dressing - no luck there yet. My wife had a strong religious upbringing. She is not as religious these days, but has very strong beliefs about some things. She brings all this back on herself - sees it as some kind of failing of hers - "Aren't I enough for you?". "You don't need to pretend to be a woman, you're looking at one."
I can't help myself at times and just want her to catch me wearing lingerie. I know it upsets her, but I just desperately want her acceptance. I need her to see the real me. I hope to get her to read up on cross-dressing and hopefully one day she will see that this is something deep inside of me - not something that I can change at all. We may need to go to counselling in the future if this matter does not move forward. We do love each other very much and she knows me more than anyone else on the planet, so hopefully this will work out eventually.

My first marriage was already down the drain before she caught me, and of course, disapproved 1,000%. So after that quick divorce, I started dating. I decided to man-up and let my girlfriends know. Well, good thing, because none of them were having any part of it and those would have been a disaster if I had gotten deeply involved. Then I met my wife. When we dated I brought up my love for pantyhose, especially on her. Curiously she asked if I ever worn them and of course I did not lie. She wanted to see. I obliged and it was pure pleasure for the past 30 years!

We need a like button for Julie C's post.

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Originally Posted by Anita Cosmolover

I came out to my wife about my CD'ing almost 3 years ago...

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Your tale of disclosure is not all that different than what many here have presented. What is also similar is your ongoing dream that she will somehow come across to your side of the fence. She will see you, accept you, participate. I'm not all that confident that this will happen. Counseling will help her to come around to your POV? Am I understanding what you are saying, that counseling will make her a willing and loving participant in your fantasy???

Read what Julie has written. Show some empathy for your wife's point of view and get rid of your unrealistic dreams of what bliss means to you. Showing a spine as Tracii is talking about means that you need to assert yourself with honesty to find a place where your desires can co-exist without throwing it in her face if at all possible. If someday she comes around to something more, terrific. But once you let go of that notion and have acceptable boundaries in place, you are likely to be much more at peace.

If showing a spine means asserting yourself to being able to wear lingerie at will in your castle (as you are the king, right?), then don't be surprised if your queen chooses to vacate the premises.

I always wondered about what are the wives thinking when they use the term "am I not enough for you?" or "why do you crossdress when you have a woman right in front of you?"
I guess they don't realize its got nothing to do with them not being woman enough but why is it they think that way?
Most guys if a woman is not enough personality wise or even sexually up to par he would break up or just stop dating her not all of a sudden start CDing because of it. Kind of silly when you think about it.
When one of the ladies I dated years ago asked me all those standard questions of why I crossdressed I told her, then she actually got it and understood it had nothing to do with her or anything she did.

Traci, I think everyone wants to be wanted to 100% percent total. ow I think thats probably not true 99% of the time but ego says that is what most people want...any conflict to that like dressing, looking at pron, staring a girl in the mall, etc etc is a threat and men often have the same issue. I have made some mistakes in my marriage but I love my wife 100% , but society tells us if I made mistakes or kept a secret (ding) then I must not love her.