Isn't being a man in a dress good?

Hi All,

Many crossdressers make an effort to look as much like a female, or more precisely, closer to the culturally idealized female image as possible, with forms, padding, wigs, makeup, etc. Females do the same, and it is a problem of practice, not identity. However, when we try to reach further and call ourselves women or girls, we run into all kinds of problems.

SOs are frightened by the idea of their man turning into a woman. CDs even police others- ('I get occasional messages to the effect of 'Honey- shave or go away'.)

The new conservative political force has a field day with males 'calling themselves women'- and it would be a whole lot simpler to study what it is that we as crossdressers want. This discussion is not applicable to those who are not happy with their bodies.

Let's embrace the idea that males should be able to wear dresses and adopt the manners and roles culturally assigned and permitted for females. Femininity and masculinity are clearly independent of biological sex, therefore we are all fundamentally free with respect to how we might feel.

The logic is simple- we are male, and it is completely normal to feel identified to some degree with all sorts of things that are culturally assigned to females. Cross-dressing and cross-behaving doesn't hurt anyone, but rather affirms equal freedom for females to branch out from the limits imposed on them.

A proposal:

Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?

In this view, full-on crossdressing is one end of the cross-dressing spectrum, and curiously trying on some article of feminine clothing is the other. We can all come out of the closet at once, and say that crossdressing is no mystery- we are just men trying to feel and express things that are beneficial, and which generally make us better friends and partners.

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and I'm going to try to start a new 'Man in a dress-yes!' thread in Pictures

Phili,
Confusion for our partners wouldn't end no matter what we call ourselves , they either accept it or they don't. If I told my wife I was just a man in a dress , she would probablty use some choice language asking why I do it at all. I still don't like the man in a dress but saying that I don't do a wig or makeup at home, but usually I'm on my own when I do dress.
I don't have a problem with my body but do prefer it dressed as a female and have an appropriate name to go with it.

Worrying about the comfort zone for others can't come before being in your own comfort zone and sometimes that's very hard to achieve. I personall wouldn't even attempt CDing if I had facial hair, so I can understand the comments you may receive .

Passing as a woman isn't possible but I would like to feel as natural as I can when I am dressed.

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Originally Posted by phili

A proposal:

Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?

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Now the issues of that. Gender specific spaces. Restrooms and locker rooms. Men in dresses....men's room (easy yes?) Transsexuals- Women's room (easy yes?) How does John Q Public know? Easy answer is a genderless society. But,how does one do that? It would take generations at least. I disagree it would be easier to the public in general.

It has been done, at least from certain perspectives, where clothing associated with females NOW was male. The list ends up here frequently...but "skirts" are common (even in cold climates). Still certain cultures retain those for culture or formal occasions.

Now in RE SO's. You will have to erase years and generations of learned and stereotypic teachings. Start now, maybe your great grandchildren can reap the benefits. So far society has failed that with race, religion, culture, physical differences, sexuality. Those are far more common.

Yes, own you are a man in a dress. Stand up for that. I will support you on that (with the caveat my wife always gave me...do NOT embarrass me). It all starts with one...man. You're that man

I have always identified myself a man and have thought of myself as such even when dressed. Out of curiosity, my exgirlfriend was watching me dress up on one occasion; when I was finished, she jokingly said, "What a lovely lady." and for a few minutes she treated me as such, she even changed my name for a similar one used for women. Moreover, in my native language there are distinct ways to address both genders. For some reason I felt bad.

When I joined the forum, I saw that people here address themselves girls or women and somehow it took me by surprise. But just as with my nickname here I went with the flow and tried to treat others in the same way; honestly though, and I really don't know why, I feel odd when I have to type "girls", so I try to come up with different ways of saying it. I really mean no disrespect. I can see why some would want that and I'm trying to understand.

I don't know about SOs, but in regards to general public where I live - I read an article in the media that tried to get across what is the current understanding of genders from the point of biology, psychology, etc. The discussion was bad, to say the least. Many called LGBT people "sickos" and other terms I'm not going to mention. An article on lace boxers intended for men generated mockery. Yeah, I know it's the internet, but as I work in the media, I see what it can do. Even wearing slim fit red pants as a man can be enough to question your sexuality.

To make the matters worse, we don't even have an equivalent of the more neutral word crossdresser in my language; to call someone a transvestite carries a lot of bad connotation, and to address yourself as a girl or a woman when dressed would be like adding fuel to the fire.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Yes, own you are a man in a dress. Stand up for that. I will support you on that (with the caveat my wife always gave me...do NOT embarrass me). It all starts with one...man. You're that man

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Lorileah, in regards to what you said, I guess you're right. For example, I realized here that I want SAs to ask me whether I'm buying this for myself (even when I typed that I felt that I'm just making excuses), but maybe even they feel that they could offend someone by asking that. If I want others in my life to accept it, I first have to own it myself. Now let's get to it! :)

I have always considered myself to be a Man, not a woman.
I have no desires to transition into a woman.
I just love to wear female clothes. I adore wearing a dress, skirt
or anything considered female clothes. I do have a Mustache, have
had it for over 50 years, and do not want to remove it.
I dress at home all the time, I under dress all the time; Bra, Panties,
Woman's Jeans are my normal attire going out every day.
I guess you could say I am just a Man wearing a dress. My wife was
OK with me wearing female clothes, but only around the house.
I am approaching 70, It is way to late in life to change my ways, and
besides, why would I want to. I do not bother anyone, and I am enjoying
my twilight years.
Rader

I am both and all I want is to be accepted for me not judged or be thought of as a freak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phili

A proposal:

Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?

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No, it would not, because doing so is yet one more attempt to put everyone in the same box. If that box fits you, fine, but it is a mistake to think that the entire group of cross-dressers feels as you do. While, as a group, we share some things in common, the plain fact is that we are all individuals and what we choose to call ourselves, how we see ourselves, is as not the same for each. That's not a difficult concept to grasp, the failure (our outright refusal), on the part of a certain portion of the general public, to do so notwithstanding.

A really valuable position to take, in all facets of the world these days is this: "Although it's not my cup of tea, I support your right to express yourself that way." There is no one way to be a crossdressser, and we still have a long way to go before gaining full acceptance, which may never happen, so we must support each other.

Phili, your style is the same as mine and like you, I get feedback from the people who see me. The responses I have received are far more often positive than negative, so I am getting more confident. But there are a lot of places I won't go, just as there are places a real woman won't go. And, since I am still a man in a dress, it's the men's room for me, although it does make me a bit nervous.

Well said Phil! Even though I cannot sign on to your premise.

I'm in the camp which is completely satisfied with the gender binary which exists in our society (I was just drafted to the wrong team!!!). I'm not likely to become part of any movement to blur the gender lines to the point where furry men run around sporting dresses. And I'm not of the opinion that this will become anything more than a fringe movement at best. Public tolerance, you bet. But your average dude isn't about to go to his closet and think "hmmm, man-suit or dress today???"

But at the same time, I will never hinder your agenda. I would never belittle you, whether in these pages or in public. Anyone who said to you "shave or go away" needs to look at themselves in the mirror as they go away themselves. I will not eschew you. I will TRY to understand you. I would be your friend and gladly break bread with you to learn more about this part of you which makes you an intriguing person.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

all I want is to be accepted for me not judged or be thought of as a freak.

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I agree. Sometimes I just want to be a man in a dress and other days I want to feel pretty and feminine; which in my own case involves a complete transformation from head to feet. But I just want to be able to do what I want without fearing judgement from others or ostracization from the people close to me.

Every time I am with my friend Mutt and someone refers to me as a woman (lady or female) he replies with "trust me, she's no woman!" It always puts a smile on my face as he understands me well. Sometimes the person scorns or scowls at him for what they deem to be disrespecting or being mean to me, but honestly he is showing respect for my preference to be me..... a man, in a dress or not!

I think I understand what your saying here, while I would love to see a change in society where I could go out and wear
whatever I want without all the makeup and wig and such I can't see it happening anytime soon.
I am a man and I accept that, but I enjoy getting pretty if you will so if that makes me a women in the view of others then
I'm ok with that

To me, it does not matter.

I'll dress up in a skirt, heels, and a basic T-shirt and chill at home; it is not my desire to go out in public in such, however, if a guy wants to then, doesn't bother me.

Other times I want to look as passable as possible and sometimes venture out in public as such.

:)

I can understand most of this. It's like saying you can be transgender or a crossdresser and no on should care. And then I think of that old line about what is the difference with the answer of a few years. Who knows. I am not sure what road I am on but I am going to enjoy it. I also have to admit that when Genny is fully made up and i see her in the mirror, now that is real joy! Phili, have you ever done a makeover? Shave once and do it and see if you feel the same? I wouldn't bet either way, but would suggest trying it.

Genny B

Wow- thanks for all the good feedback!

I was very curious whether most folks were going for the female look because it felt socially necessary [but not their preference], or were basically ok with binary gender culture and happy to work hard to play on both teams. I think I am most moved by the overriding response that we are trapped in this cultural binary gender and you might as well play by the rules since you can have more acceptance.

I am not a fan of makeup on women- [I'm still a 60s non-drug hippie] , but I did experience an amazing rush from wearing heels, for my first time this week. I will admit this makes me wonder if I would change my tune after a successful makeover!

I am still hoping I'm not too unusual in this- but I'll accept that as a 60s hippie challenging everything and trying to live a 'natural' life, I'm not a purist [ But satin is natural, isn't it? Ok -Seriously, I have discovered cotton again!

I'm laughing at myself here. Thank you all.

I just replied to the thread "man in skirt or woman inside", or similar. I think it applies here too. I am a man and have no desire to look like a woman.

Phili, if you want to be a man in a skirt that is your choice... its a free world (mostly) but why does the world have to be a simpler place? is not diversity what makes the world an interesting place? I think that so many of us here are on different places on the gender spectrum and no size fits all.

I think the trick is to look like a woman in a dress.

Never been keen on the bearded lady..... :-)

Philli I like your thought provoking threads. For me I like to wear female attire and I love heels, I love the choice of feminine clothes and like to experiment. Around the house no makeup unless I want to post a pic, if I'm going out then I want to be as passable as possible. I fully support the idea of each gender being able to wear what they want and present how they want, would be great if the majority of the populace would agree x

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Originally Posted by phili

I was very curious whether most folks were going for the female look because it felt socially necessary [but not their preference], or were basically ok with binary gender culture and happy to work hard to play on both teams. I think I am most moved by the overriding response that we are trapped in this cultural binary gender and you might as well play by the rules since you can have more acceptance.

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I'm not seeing it as being trapped. I actually like the binary we live in. It makes sense to me from both points of view. Yet there is a huge contradiction present when one considers that the very binary makes my out-&-about feminine presentation generally more of an issue than it should be. But I don't err towards full-female when out due to any perceived easier acceptance. I genuinely prefer presenting the entire product.

Those who blur the gender lines might be making it easier for us part-timers in the long run although those who are full time may choose to argue otherwise. This is the one area where I have difficulty reconciling the man-in-dress look but at the end of the day, I'll side with tolerance and understanding.

I always struggle with this, too. Haven't shaved my handlebar in over 40 years, never will. Do go out in public fully en femme occasionally, without makeup. The real limit is that my wife disapproves. To the world, I definitely am a man in a dress. Or, last Saturday, a man in an obviously womanly style: linen pants, multi-colored blouse, multi-colored scarf, wrap sweater, cross-body purse. Many people walking around an open house at a large art studio, most of the women dressed just like me. One woman, an artist I know, complimented my mother-of-pearl ring. Everyone must also have noted at least the purse, and many the general style but offered or returned smiles anyway.

Much more fun and scary to go out with obvious breast forms and a skirt. I do that too sometimes. I think the clothes look better when my body has more feminine contours. It does seem delusional. Offering and returning smiles is all I can do to respect other people's feelings at that point, but it seems to be enough.

To clarify, I'm not saying that we should not pursue appearance styles associated with females,and I'm all in favor of it- I love the soft huge smiles I see in the Boy/Girl Mode side by sides in Picture Gallery. GennyB makes the point, and I wish it was easier to do, to be honest.

Becky's point that life doesn't have to be simpler is a good one, but relaxing the binary rulebook would make it easier for all of us to be successful, wouldn't it? Setting up two teams and a rulebook about appearance and behavior doesn't speak to the fact that the basic nature of men and women is pretty similar, so the binary system [look like a 'boy' or 'girl'] just means everyone is working hard to try to conform to something, and restricting a lot of aspects of themselves in the process. It is further made difficult and often toxic by promoting ideals like the cover girl or the macho man, which are not good for us.


Maybe this cultural practice persists because most people think they can reasonably conform and succeed, and it is comforting to do that? We see occasionally the sentiment here that "we have succeeded at being men and now we want to succeed at being women." However, plenty of members say they feel depressed because they can't get even close to passing, i.e. acceptably ideal. Many women feel the same way- they are too big boned, too mannish a face, too square, etc. One help could be to expand the binary rulebook and open up the clubhouse so men and women can enjoy each other's world more freely. We all want to feel good more of the time!

The related benefit is making terminology more precise- but maybe saying we are womanly rather than women, is too fine a point and isn't going to matter, as Teresa points out. I think my wife is in this category- she can't distinguish feminine from female and it blows her fuses. It apparently is just too hard to rethink it all, as Lorileah has said. Ok- I'm a dreamer- it feels better!

You go ahead and wear a dress without attempting to look like a female if that's what floats your boat. You are the one who will get the laughs and comments. You are the one who will embarrass your wife and family. You are the one who will hurt his career opportunities. It would be a mistake to think that you will change society's norms and expectations.

Me, I'm with Beverly Sims. "I think the trick is to look like a woman in a dress. Never been keen on the bearded lady..... :-) "

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Originally Posted by phili

...A proposal:

Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?

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I call myself a cross dresser. Isn't THAT more accurate? I'm me, regardless of how I am dressed, so my wife sees "me" at all times.

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Originally Posted by phili

... and I'm going to try to start a new 'Man in a dress-yes!' thread in Pictures

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Phili, I think you have to consider the "shock and awe" from the normals point of view. A man, presenting as male except for the clothes is actually more jarring than a cross dresser. It's simple expectation. One has every right to dress as they like, but the shock value is proportionally higher the less feminine one looks when dressed.

i was recently at a payless store, looking at sneaks, in the other aisle i saw a man in an LBD casually trying on shoes, i discreetly found a pair of women's sneakers and proceeded to try them on garnering little attention, so at this particular time their were two from our community in the store at one time, a rarity ill presume, but the man in the dress was attracting much more attention and scrutiny from the SAs and john Q public....

so yes you can phili but you will receive undeserved attention for the most part, no one said any negative things about what they were seeing and i was trying to linger to have the opportunity if it was to happen, inquisitive looks from some men waiting out front of the store but nothing overtly negative.....what i did regret was not having interacted with them as i would not have clocked them....the facial hair was a few days growth.

weird thing is later in the day while working i witnessed what may of been a CD, quite passable if it was but my only cue were the sunglasses during a cloudy day, she seemed to linger and wanted attention....or it was just a gal shopping in the store and I was putting way too much thought into it....so in no way would i have approached this person....

for me makeup and the wig complete how i would like to be perceived, boobs added for my comfort from those folks in the "wild" and theyre expectations and to create doubt....

Interesting- I'm not getting shock and awe or nasty looks, mostly sympathetic. Agreed the dress is a mismatch to expectations, but it is less effort for the observer than reading male coming through the female, which is the case when we are trying to look female, rather than just saying feminine is good, let's all enjoy it.

My choice of presentation does challenge the cultural idea that female is a lesser status, and is rewarded by certain privileges, among them sexy clothes. This would be a point of argument from women as a tradeoff many wouldn't willingly make, and these women would probably also say that if men want to wear dresses, have at it. That said, within this social contract, CDs who emulate females as closely as possible might be safer than I am. However, so far it seems to me that the reactions to me in public are very similar to those I would get if in a wig and forms. All the evidence to me says that the casual friendly observer will have the same kind supportive view, and the hostile TG phobe will not be any happier if I have shaved. The wild card is when people are courteous but inwardly angry.

There is certainly a cultural expectation / assumption that if a man enjoys wearing 'female' clothing to any degree whatever then he must

• Present convincingly as a woman full time
• Be attracted to, and want to be attractive to, men
• etc etc

None of which is necessarily true!
It would be cool if our culture could be such that a man could wear makeup, dresses etc presenting as a man without fear of ridicule or worse (and without his wife/SO having a meltdown). Maybe some day that will happen but not within our lifetimes.
Mind you. Here's the thing.... Much as I would love to be able to amble into work wearing lippy and eyeshadow but otherwise presenting male without adverse consequences, or wear a skirt suit when the mood takes me... I actually enjoy going the whole nine yards, the complete transformation, setting my male presentation to one side for a while. It's a lot of effort but it's fun too.

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Originally Posted by phili

...

Let's embrace the idea that males should be able to wear dresses and adopt the manners and roles culturally assigned and permitted for females. Femininity and masculinity are clearly independent of biological sex, therefore we are all fundamentally free with respect to how we might feel.

...

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How does the old song go? I Can Dream, Can't I? Many Native American cultures had that figured out with the two-spirit thing: regardless of plumbing, choose your role as either hunter/warrior or gatherer/nurturer, generally around age 10, and your culture accepts and embraces you as part of the tribe. Works for me.

Your OP presents an interesting point for abstract discussion, but put me down in the camp that finds half-measures more discomfiting than poor or mediocre passability (and more so than a well-assembled look that makes no realistic attempt to pass/blend/convince). In fact, there's been a word to describe man-in-dress and similar efforts at what I once called "straddling stereotypes": genderf**k. If it's done as an in-your-face punk performance, it's intended to offend and provoke reaction. If it's done as you describe, just wanting to wear something soft and nice and pretty without all the other feminine-presentation baggage, you may or may not get a pass from the general public. San Francisco would certainly be among your more favorable environments (if you can pay the rent there...:eek:).

Whether it's casual or dressy, I want to look the part, albeit without elaborate padding or cinching. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and maybe I'm just lucky to have a fairly androgynous physique for a six-footer. For me, it's details, details, details, and that's not satisfied by attire that might otherwise be termed (for lack of a less-loaded word) non-erotic fetishism, an attachment to the object without the usual context.

Philli ,
I was just reading through this hread and noticed your avatar , if this were the 13-1400's you would fit right in so to say fashion wise , when i dress it is rather tomboyish if you will you really have to look ,however of late as I sink deeper into the gender abyss I am wearing more obvious girls clothing ,I have noticed as a rule that if you do not call attention to yourself in any way no one really pays any attention I sometimes feel a lot of what we think people are noticing is all in our own minds and once we overcome this (easier said than done ) we enjoy ourselves more
hugs phylis anne

Thanks again, everyone- this has been very educational! I'm now understanding the urge to look like a woman and support the binary. In SF my genderqueer look is not considered 'in your face'- just mixed gender. It is good to know the background of why some fellow crossdressers dislike my appearance.

I appreciate the voices of tolerance and especially those from like-minded members.I hope any lurkers who share my view will post a pic in my Man in a dress thread in Pictures, and if you don't want to show your face- go neck down!

I'll also post some pictures that are not 14th century styles!

I'm with you brother. I am one person that doesn't change when I am wearing "women's" clothes. I suppose if we lived in a world where there was no stigma to what we call "crossdressing" today, I would find some equilibrium that satisfied my own personal style. That would probably be wearing a lot of skirts, having a short, but feminine hairstyle and maybe even a little bit of makeup. I would not be trying to be something am not, but somewhere between the two gender binaries in terms of dressing--because it is what is comfortable to me. I would still be a man and might even wear a dress every now and again.

I was thinking of names that cross genders (whether spelled differently or not), Dale, Jerry, Kerry, etc., When someone comes up to us who has been named ahead of the meeting, we have a little bit of a shock if we guessed the wrong gender. Should what we wear make any more difference than that?

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Originally Posted by taylormercedes

I agree. Sometimes I just want to be a man in a dress and other days I want to feel pretty and feminine; which in my own case involves a complete transformation from head to feet. But I just want to be able to do what I want without fearing judgement from others or ostracization from the people close to me.

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"Hey, by the way, Mike is being Barbara today." "Oh, okay. No big deal"

Phili you do make some good points, and my perspective on crossdressing is similar to yours. I identify my sexual orientation as "100% straight". I identify my gender as "100% male", and I also recognize that I have suffered with some gender dysphoria, especially in my early childhood. For me crossdressing is not only a pleasurable sensation, but a way of fixing my damaged inner self. So I am just a man in a dress as well.

However, I have met crossdressers who were bi-sexual and even homosexual. I know crossdressers who have transitioned to formally change their gender. Yes, many crossdressers are more comfortable calling themselves "girls" and using the women's restrooms in public. Some crossdressers identify their gender as part male and part female. There is a wide, wide spectrum within crossdressing.

Perhaps some of the problem we experience with social acceptance is that we cannot explain ourselves to the public in a way that encompasses all aspects of this spectrum.

We've all been programmed since birth to think that men and women should dress a certain way. if that changed to where both men and women wore whatever they liked right from the time they could make their own decisions without ridicule there'd certainly be a lot of men in dresses and skirts. If you want to wear a dress and not deal with the wigs, makeup, and whatever else then by all means go for it.

I don’t have a problem if you want to be a guy in a skirt/dress. I have twice encountered this. First was in Solvang, a Danish tourist town. I was sitting at an outdoor café, he walked up and asked if he could set down. The Maitre’D ran over to save me. I told them it was ok. The second was at The Center in Vegas, he is one of the staff there. I think all you need to pull this off is confidence coupled with an outgoing, upbeat personality. I find it’s more fun to be different, I prefer to be the unicorn in the room. I meet way more people than if I was part of the background.

This brought something very recent to mind (Thanks Phili, or i'd had forgotten something obviously valuable). This is near to topic right? kinda?
Anyway, My SO was chatting with me about my occasional "self doubt".. I was having a bad mental day and, we started talking about my pastime. I was exhibiting my usual "what does it all mean?" question of no significance really when I then rephrased the question to Her. I said "whats in it for you?..or why do you care wether I do or I don't?"
With a determine attitude, my wife says this.." you are different dressed..happier, more at ease in general"..I replied I didn't understand...She replied "It's just that this seems like it's more you than NOT you..." I shut up and felt instantly better for awhile..at least until the next bout of doubt enters the arena for a go at me...
Thanks Phili,and Thank you posters...I think I needed to look at that again, and would not have otherwise

I too say "whatever floats your boat" but please do not attempt to force us all into your category. Even though my results are often disappointing I have a strong female identity in my gender. These days it's my predominant gender identity. Circumstances are such that I cannot display it all the time, but when I do, I want to present as female head to toe; however in order to not go completely nuts I have to at least underdress when I can't express Jeanne completely. No beard; as close-shaved as possible and no body hair, except for where a girl who wants to look natural down below will have some.

For me it's an attempt to overcome significant gender<->body dysphoria. When I see my shaved body in the mirror, I feel that there are at least fewer things wrong with me, and I can accept myself better; it gives me significant relief from the dysphoria.

We are all a complex mix here. In my case, strong female identity, but sexually attracted to only females (though with a slight preference for butch ones). I guess that makes me a lesbian-transgendered-woman-who-crossdresses-when-she-can. I think every person here has her own similar hyphenated identity! Create your own, and let the rest of us create own rather than trying to fit ourselves to other people's perceptions. In fact that's our whole problem, we're forced to fit other people's perceptions about what they think we should be, rather than our own very intimate insight into our own selves.

Personally "enjoying all this as men" doesn't work for me. I don't feel any affinity at all to masculinity these days. I still have to function as a man in various contexts. That's hard enough to accept.

Don't know what it's worth but, speaking only for me (others too but they'll chime in) I find nothing wrong at all with your feelings. Much like yourself Jean, I have to go the only way I know how.. And I too cannot be too worried about anything else. I believe your quite justified in that.
I won't allow myself to packaged into pigeonholes, as I am sure you won't either.

It interests me how many expressed the idea of being boxed in by my proposal that we affirm that we are men.

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

I notice this feeling in myself when I look like what I like to call a Civil War Veteran- craggy rough hewn older bearded man look- it has deep associations for me and my version of dysphoria then is that my body does not 'look' anything like I want it to look. Of course, it is my body, so the reality is that someone who looks 150 years old can feel very girly and want to be wearing girly clothes and be appreciated as a non-female girl.

If I don't look in the mirror, I have no trouble! I am a man, I am happy to feel free and feminine, and I just want others to accept that.

I think it is safe to say that trying to look like a woman, if you can, is fun and desirable, since it is the least energy solution and avoids the dissonance of not 'looking like' a woman. However, this creates problems for everyone who can't pass, and in the end, that is most of us. I can understand that most members probably feel that playing by the rules is usually the best course, and the rule here is that if you want to feel feminine or partake in women's culture, you have to at least try to look like a woman, so you are not perceived as trying to upset the gender role apple cart.

I admit that upsettig the apple cart seems like a good idea to me, since it not only frees us to redefine manhood, but it frees women as well to redefine womanhood, and the end goal is that everyone can do what they feel is most appropriate for ther psyche and find partners who resonate with them.

I secretly hope that this also would then eliminate a lot of dysphoria, since the strict rule that manhood or womanhood means X would no longer hold, and our brothers and sisters would be free to be what they feel. So many today look down and don't like what they see - because it looks wrong, and/or limits them, . If everyone was free, then looking down is just looking down, and you see yourself and like yourself because you like how you feel and express yourself.

So much of what we learn as children about gender is rule-based, with punishment for breaking the rules. But if the rule is to be yourself, masculine or feminine or fluid, whatever your biological sex, then things are a lot better for everyone. It is the kind of rule no one would break- therefore no punishment.

At least try to imagine - what if seeing a man in a dress was normal? We would have to look deeper and see how he was acting and what his interests were. It really would just mean that we would have a much broader and more accurate sense of the diversity of men.

It really makes me wonder about this stereo typing of CDR's and "tranny" titles. I have been studying the Indigenous people of North America Mainly Canada and West coast Hiada's (I love their wood carvings which I carve as well) The Native men in many many Tribes especially the farmers wore Dresses. Some still do to this day. If you look thru the America's you will find cultures where the men wear dresses and or skirts.

It is what society puts Labels on things they do not understand or agree with or goes against their "church" It is sad state we are in and until people start realizing that Gender equality is and needs to be realized we will always be put in the "corner" the "bad" or "taboo" and the "your sick" category.

That is the America's the rest of the world we can talk about Africa and India and Austallia. Men and women both wear skirts. They do not judge if the guy is wearing woman's clothes. Makes me realize how much society corrupts peoples minds with wrong ideas. How they try to make us feel when the "new Man" can wear silky lacey clothes and it is ok.

Stereo type? No I say ignorance on the ill informed and the people who are unknowledgable.

I think this concept would help a lot of cds who like their skirts and dresses, but feel bad when they're told that wearing those requires them to be "girly" or "gay", even though they arent.. you don't see the same results when women wear pants because our society has normalized women wearing pants, but not men wearing dresses. So that would be nice for male dress wearing to become a normal thing in our world

I think being a man in a dress is good. If I could, I would wear female clothes and makeup because I like them and feel sexy in them, not because I would think I'm a women trapped in a male body or wanted to look like a women. I even don't like wigs, breast forms and bra. I only wear them when I go out, to attract as little attention as possible. I'm happy beeing a men, but unhappy because I can't wear what I want without consequences.

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Originally Posted by phili

It interests me how many expressed the idea of being boxed in by my proposal that we affirm that we are men.

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

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I think that you are missing the point that some of us don't want to be men. I don't want to be a man so therefore your proposal boxes me into your idea of what I should conform to.

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Originally Posted by phili

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

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I am a man. I enjoy being a man. However, when I dress I like to present and appear to the extent possible as female. I am embracing my feminine side and wish to show it.

We all have different reasons for choosing to dress and present as we do. Just as you may wish to do away with societies gender specific clothing rules, I wish to embrace them and just enjoy my time escaping into my feminine role.

Not to be argumentative, but while it's fine if men want to wear dresses, my purpose is to distance myself from maleness to the greatest possible extent on the occasions when I am able to. Let's all remember we are each part of a spectrum..all little beams of light...but certainly not all the same color;)

We live in a society that seems to like their gender lines clearly drawn. Yes, there has been some blurring of the lines, but the line is still there for someone to trip over. To blame religion is an easy excuse, we should all look squarely in the mirror at ourselves. Let's face it. most women are not the problem, it's the knuckle dragging testosterone driven males. They want to hold on the their power and blurred gender lines create problems for them and their world view. Just look into the power corridors of business and government and see all the Alpha males running things. A male in a skirt is a problem to them, they can't understand why they are not alpha driven like them, can they be trusted, what sex are they? A male going the whole nine yards and passing as a female is a bigger problem, because they want to make a pass at anything in a skirt and they then get a rude surprise.

In a perfect world there would be no gender lines, neither male, or female, slave, or free, we would all be the same, but that isn't going to happen in our world soon. Yet walls are broken down one brick at a time. Phili, wear your dress, or skirt out in public, and others should do as they wish. You will either receive applause, scorn, or disinterest as people just go about their lives.

I am one who sees himself as male with an open mind to letting people be who they are. I just don't want people shoving something in my face. I don't tell people what I am wearing under my outer clothes, it's none of their business! If someone thinks that explaining to a person why they are the way they are would help, then fine go ahead and try. People never stop amazing me, whether it is for an open mind, or a closed mind. Embracing who you are is important, if you can't be true to yourself, then who can you be true to?

Phili got it all right and rest of you as well. To be honest, Phili is person that goes by that exact "definition" of cd, well if defintion is right word in first place. Crossdress - do you ses word dress there? A dress, clothes. It should be all about clothes only (Phili you awesome! Got all my respect ;) ) and not much as behaving like gg. But then why like 90% of us is trying to blend in much as possible? As it was mentioned in few posts already, its bcs social issues. For many its better to (try) blend in then go out as men in dress (go out, at home it doenst matter, nobody judge you here). Maybe in US ppl are kind of used to this and are okay with that and by reading post of you all who lives there, that seems more likely as true. But here in EU, well, go as men in dress and you become outcast. One of reason why I personaly working on to blend much as passible when i decide its right time to step out. Here its better and thus safer to ppl doubt your gender then be read right away. But dont get me wrong, If I could be just men in dress without future issues that come with it then I would be. Female wardrobe has so many pieces of clothing that are way better and more comfy then male ones. We all know that...

I totally understand Phil's speech about gender stereotypes. GGs get the pressure of it all the time, and when I dress with feminine clothes and forms, I am also giving in, accepting to be shaped by them. But as I do so deliberately, I don't see it as a surrender. Also, while my rational brain doesn't endorse gender stereotypes like shaved legs, lipstick, heels (I don't like the idea of shaping individuals socially) and I never ask anything like this from my wife, my sexual brain can't help but find my wife and girls in general more attractive when she/they go with them. I'm a product of the 60's I guess, where short skirts and tights were all around me as a child. When I wear feminine attire, I will often go with a pair of jeans, a shirt, but absolutely need breast and tights for the weight and touch, because crossdressing is an emotional trip for me, I want to fully let go my male form and be, like others said, as far from my male self as possible. This is the only way I can feel really free and at peace. I am a man, but in these moments, I have to imagine I am a woman from these 60's.

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Originally Posted by phili

Becky's point that life doesn't have to be simpler is a good one, but relaxing the binary rulebook would make it easier for all of us to be successful, wouldn't it? Setting up two teams and a rulebook about appearance and behavior doesn't speak to the fact that the basic nature of men and women is pretty similar, so the binary system [look like a 'boy' or 'girl'] just means everyone is working hard to try to conform to something, and restricting a lot of aspects of themselves in the process. It is further made difficult and often toxic by promoting ideals like the cover girl or the macho man, which are not good for us.

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I have spent 3.5 years, and many thousands of dollars on electrolysis to get rid of my facial hair. (Still not finished *sob*). So take that into account when you read my reply.

I don't have any problem with genderqueer people such as yourself, or perhaps you want to think of it as gender bending, or simply that the gender binary does not serve us well. I actually agree with you that it doesn't. I don't think you'll be rid of it, but some of the stupid and arbitrary stuff we do - segregated restrooms, and stupid policing of gender norms, especially regarding apparel - should definitely go by the wayside.

You will also find plenty of trans people who disagree with me. I'll be honest - what you propose, in some sense, makes life more difficult for highly binary trans people like me. I'm easy to explain - I'm just a woman, albeit with an interesting history. What gets a lot of trans people upset is that many hostile cisgender people assume that there is no difference between someone like me and someone like you. (Personally, I don't really think it should make much of any kind of difference in most situations.) They also assume btw, that we are both rapists - despite the fact that I no longer possess the anatomy to rape anyone with. Obviously this is projection on their part, since 90% of rapes are committed by cisgender men, and 80% of those are committed by men who know the victim. And nearly 0% of them are committed by men in dresses. Nevertheless, we're bathroom bills here in Texas this week that make just such assumptions. So many transpeople want to throw individuals like yourself under the bus, thinking that this will make society accept us better. Unfortunately, they are wrong about this - the people who hate trans people of various stripes do not consider us to be human beings in the first place, so having trans people who conform well to the gender binary doesn't cut much ice with them.

Anyway, carry-on hon. I will say that presentations like yours make correct pronoun nearly impossible. Because asking me MY preferred pronoun, which is what would be required for you, will anger me, because I spent a big heap of dough to make it unnecessary to ask that question. So it does put cis people into kind of a bind - do they ask and offend someone, or not ask , and offend someone? Perhaps the answer is something really simple like - avoiding gendered pronouns wherever possible!

Over the longer haul, having people not freak out over a "man in a dress" would make transition a lot easier for those of us who need to transition. It wouldn't eliminate it - you'll have to take my word on that, but it would reduce the stress of the process.

Anyway, do what you do and own it. I support your efforts.

edit:
regarding stereotypical feminine attire. I freaking hate wearing pants. I was forced to wear them for 50 years. So wearing pants IS NOT LIBEARATING for me as a woman. There are femme's - women who like to wear feminine things. Femmes get erased in a lot of spaces - especially queer ones, and somehow, for a trans woman like me to wear a dress and makeup means that I'm somehow a sellout, and am endorsing mistreatment of women.

I have a number of cis women friends who frankly dress terribly. They were badly fitting, baggie, t-shirts and jeans that could belong to either men or women - except you know they are women's jeans because the pockets in them are useless! I support their choice - but wish every once in a while they would choose to put more than 10 seconds of effort into their appearance each day. (Of course men get away with that all the time so it's only fair, although I think guys who wear stuff like what I described also look really terrible.)

Anyway, I might think all that - but I would NEVER say it to anyone. I'm not the fashion police, and I support people expressing themselves however they choose, even if I personally think "damn, I wouldn't clean a public restroom wearing that outfit!"

I get this type of erasure a fair amount. Somehow, whatever type of woman I am, I'm the type that no matter what I do, I don't count as a "real woman." If I am femme, I am a sellout and reinforce sexist misogynist stereotypes. (That I would think "that dress is pretty!" doesn't seem to count.) If I am butch, then I am clearly not even trying to be a woman. It's frustrating.

So maybe, at the end of the day, the people who critique me would be more comfortable with you, phili, in a dress. But I bet not. Because somehow, even though we are all for women's rights, EVERYTHING masculine is viewed as being superior in our culture, from clothes, to emotional response (or lack thereof), to everything else.