Is DADT ultimately just a manifestation of a spouse's other insecurities...

...including a lack of self-esteem, the need to control everything (and everyone) within their environment, as well as underlying anxiety issues that cause all of these - the result often being an over-reaction in response to even the slightest perceived provocation?

I ask this because I have come to the (belated) conclusion that in my case at least, it is less about the crossdressing itself that has resulted in the DADT impasse that my wife and I have found ourselves in over the years, but more about her underlying insecurities and anxieties that she refuses to admit she has.

Case in point - yesterday, I told my wife that I was expecting delivery that day of an on-line order from a department store that I have bought a significant amount of my female wardrobe from over the years, but usually in one of their actual retail stores. I didn't want to knowingly stir up any DADT dust in doing so, but I was also caught between a rock and a hard place here as this retailer only ships to home addresses and not to their bricks-and-mortar retail locations, nor even virtual addresses such as a P.O. box or a specified pick-up location such as a UPS depot or a postal sub-station. My wife and I are both retired, she is home much of the time, and while I knew from the shipper's tracking information what day the delivery was going to take place, I didn't know at what time of day that would be, and odds were, she was going to be around then to answer the door.

So, in the interests of transparency and honesty (an on-going theme/mantra on this forum...wives and SO's are allegedly bothered more by the lies and deception as opposed the crossdressing itself), I told my wife upfront that said delivery was pending that day so as to avoid her potentially being blindsided by my order's arrival. Well, the excrement hit the proverbial ventilator anyway, and she immediately went ape-sh*t on my sorry @ss. It was the usual litany..."You spend far more time on "Leslie" than you do on me (wrong!)", "Funny how we have money for that, and not for (insert any random item here...but also WRONG!)", "I just spent $XX on a dress for an upcoming wedding, and you spent $YY (higher number) on a dress that is going to sit in your stash most of the time?" (nobody told her how much she could spend on her dress; totally her own free will...I wasn't even there when she bought it, and our finances could easily have managed a higher outlay had she so desired).

You get the picture...a totally irrational and emotional rant accompanied by a list of unsubstantiated accusations. But I've also come to the point where I just let this type of storm rage over me until it peters out on its own, having learned the hard way that no matter what rebuttal I might offer, it is just met by a sarcastic counterpoint along with additional vitriol, and I just don't bother defending myself anymore. In a perfect world, we should be able to have a civilized discussion over such matters where both opposing positions might be discussed and respected - even if we only end up agreeing to disagree - but instead, these discussions invariably degenerate into this type of pointless verbal sparring where the only objective is to assign blame, eviscerate the other party, and grind them into the dirt to secure an unconditional surrender.

To my point then...while no formal medical diagnosis as to the root cause of my wife's behavior in this regard has ever been made (not going to happen, ever - in her mind, she is both blameless and "perfect"), she is clearly has major anxiety issues, resulting in her being a very controlling, self-centered (and to some degree, manipulative) individual who loves to wrap herself in the mantle of victimhood when she feels hard done by and doesn't immediately get her way. Consequently, I am beginning to give less and less of a rat's @ss as to her feelings about my crossdressing and am starting to chart a more independent path.

More importantly, I am beginning to realize that our version of DADT is less about the crossdressing itself, and more about my wife's need to be in full control at all times. Add to that what is likely a measure of insecurity about her self-image, her innate femininity, and overall appeal to the opposite sex, and a heady combination results. Not the best scenario when one throws a partner's crossdressing into the mix, but it is what it is...and proving yet again that life is unfair.

Can any others here relate to what I am saying from their own personal experiences?

as Miss Argentina said in Beetlejuice (paraphrased) "This is what happens with your wife. That is what happens with his wife. That's what happens with their wives. It's all very personal." You can make the assumption on why your wife does what she does but we can never know why anyone else does anything

I threw the DADT out the window, It didn't help my relationship, but I Needed to come out!

The insecurity which I perceive is that of my much older wife being possibly concerned that I may take off with another crossdresser, or a younger person.

I'd be insecure if I was my wife, so I can see it from the other side.

Interesting analysis Leslie, you clearly think of these things often in a meticulous manner.

I don't think your theory is wrong. Certainly you have a better handle on what is actually driving this situation than any of us. But in my opinion it comes full circle to the point that being who and/or what we are along with what we do for whatever reason (and where we choose to "be" or "do"), this whole thing runs counter to everything our SO's have come to know and expect out of their relationship.

DADT can be a coping mechanism. Putting myself in her (insert any DADT SO here) proverbial shoes. I hate it. I don't understand it. I don't want to understand it. I never want to see it. I'd rather not even think about it, let alone talk about it. You told me early and I thought I could change you. -OR- You told me years into our relationship, how could you do this to me?

When it comes down to it, what is normal for us in terms of having come to grips with who and/or what we are, it is utterly foreign for many of our SO's and distressing on so many levels.

There is no right or wrong analysis and no easy answers. As difficult as this can be for us, it can really suck to be our other half.

The problem with dadt is that it puts the partner in charge of when one can dress and over time leads to resentment. I can read the resentment in Leslie's post. It's a flawed - temporary solution. Eventually, closeted dressers will be found out. I know this from my own mistakes.

My SO and I are starting some counseling with a therapist who specializes in gender issues. It was the SO's idea. We'll see how that goes.

Leslie,

Yes, I relate, particularly to the "control" issues. My wife has some similar attributes. Yes, I think a lot of it is caused by her own self image, family history and emotional swings. She went thru some major depression about 9 years ago with multiple family deaths, daughters leaving nest, father diagnosed Alzheimer's. I think she sometimes micro-controls me as a thoughtless knee-jerk to coping with so much change.

You can only change yourself, remember that. Choose your own best reactions, the "non-reaction" is often the very best choice: let the hurricane blow out. But, be true to yourself and authentic.

I am going to move our relationship out of DADT, and soon. Wish me luck.

Leslie,

I believe that you certainly have a point, and I see similarities in my own situation from time to time. One thing to consider is how much of Both of your behaviors are somewhat passive agressive. I would bet that she sees your dressing as a passive agressive stance, and does not want to surrender to it.

Keep in mind, while you can influence others behaviors, you can only control your own. Sorry to see you go down this spiral. If I knew how to fix it, I'd write a best selling book.

Best advice I can give is to try to be a kind and forgiving as you can, even when you don't feel like it.

My wife's behavior is identical, and I have tended to classify it the same way as you are, but now realize something new- that she is doing the best she can to communicate her feelings of not being loved enough, safe, and having the prospect of a good life that has the security of the cultural norm safety net around it.

Once when she vividly described the out of control feelings she had as a little girl when her alcoholic PTSD father was driving the family somewhere, I really understood the source of it, but usually I am distracted by the detail of whatever she is saying- which results in the same pointless bickering that goes nowhere, since it doesn't address the basic issue of security.

I married her because of her childlike loving nature, but I missed the point that I need to relate to her feelings, not her logic- which is relatively non-existent. So when she is angry, I try to ignore it and say 'I love you'. But I need to do more, to acknowledge her feelings somehow in the context of how she feels, even when she is saying it in the form of 'you are wrong because xxx'.

I am also trying to be recognizable to her on an emotional level by saying how I feel in my dress- and I have found that she does respond to that- I can see she sees herself in me then. It doesn't last long yet, as she then moves again into the cultural and habitual norm of scolding and denying. But I have found something else- that if I am in my feminine/human space, I can listen to her without getting cold or angry, and I just wait it out. And then she tends to feel less afraid and we can have normal conversations.

For all the reasons stated in the response posts, DADT is not a good solution really, as we are both still separated from our reality. I've found over and over that when I just stop hiding and managing, I am easily accepted by others, and I am actually the person she most wants- emotionally available and positive and focused on her!

I'll be reporting in...

OMG Leslie that is exactly where I am at.

For 47 years we have had a relationship where underdressing and for the most part anything at home is OK. Recently I've been putting on a big push to complete the look above the neck (wig and makeup) and also take it out the door. Well holy sh**. Stand back.

This has been going on for 4 or 5 months and the SO is unwilling or unable to embrace this bold new adventure I'm on. So while I'm enjoying the experience of all of these new adventures, the SO is simmering like a tea pot.

Last night I was planning on getting all girlied up and heading to a local CD support group meeting. This was going to be my first meeting and my second time out the door. I was already somewhat nervous but committed. Well the SO came home and we started having one of those talks. By the time I said enough, all of the air was out of my balloon. I bailed on my plans, isolated myself, slept in the spare bedroom, and am currently trying to figure out how to react to all of this. I refuse to be controlled by her because of her insecurities, but exactly what will I do. It will take some time to decide. No hurry. No rash decisions.....

A little sad to hear that your wife is so none accepting of your cross dressing. Are you sure it was not just a bad day for her and poor timing?

We have a DADT policy, however these days there are not the stressful situations you describe. For example I was out walking dressed the other evening and got home after my wife, not planned, but after a brief totally irrational , get in before the neighbour's lynch us moment, all was well.

I think You were right to tell her. Trust is the only way to built or continue any long term relationship. Hopefully after a few sleeps she will realise you were thinking of her and it will strengthen your relationship a little more.

If she's that irrational and psychotic that she's going after you for no reason then why are you even still with her?

I couldn't live with that! It sounds like she possibly was like that already from the start before you told her about CD. A partner trying to control every aspect of your life is not healthy, you need an equal partner ship where both opinions matter and have complete respect for each other. If that's not there it will eventually eat away at the relationship. It sounds like that's already your path by "not caring anymore" because of how she treats you. I'm so sorry to hear about that! 😥

Everyone in this life has issues of some kind, the question is whether they have been dealt with or not. I am of the opinion that DADT has other things in the back ground that get side stepped to make CD'ing the whipping boy!

Leslie, sage observations as usual, and sounds like nobody is having a lot of fun in the Langford household. Sara Jessica is right, of course, that it's important to continually view things from our spouses perspective. Nothing about this is easy for them. However, while your wife is unwilling to give an inch, mine gives me latitude. It's basically my thing, she wants no part of it, but it's ultimately harmless and as long as it doesn't bleed into our relationship I may indulge. In practical terms, I'm full on when she's away and all boy when she's around. And, I get a week of Michelle does Las Vegas every winter. If you dare raise the subject I would be delighted to have you join me. Hugs, Michelle

I can understand your SO feeling insecure. Even we cross dressers feel insecure. What does strike me as unacceptable is the almost violent angry reaction. Such behavior will not solve anything and can only make things worse. Have you thought of getting some counseling help to sort out what is going on?

My GF has anxiety and depression. sometimes and she is supportive and understands some of my issues. She is insecure also and need words of encouragement yet she is very smart and is not totally understanding but I had a good talk with her of about a month for her to understand my issues and showed her each of my fem clothes. She has gone shopping with me and helps pick out nice fem items. I told her that she has her problems and I have mine. LOL hers takes more support from professionals. I don't know if she has told them I crossdress.. But sometimes I am there en fem at the VA.

I am going to suggest counseling for you and your wife. I commented on a thread you posted 12-11-2016 where you were questioning whether your marital woes may be related to your wife not aging as gracefully as you. There was a big long list of her infirmities and another list of your feminine poise. I not a technical wiz so I could not do the linkage bit, but, people can find it. I get the impression whatever is "wrong" with your marriage is entirely attributable to your wife. Are you intimating you are obviously blameless? Perhaps the sentiments you enumerated in these two posts are clearly visible to your wife. There's much to be said about non verbal communication in a marriage.

I can relate totally to your post. My wife and I at times had a sort of DADT relationship. Sometimes she was more understanding, sometimes it was "I hate it", sometimes it was sort of OK. Your wife sounds a lot like my wife was. She did have emotional issues with which she refused to deal. Unfortunately, this type of a relationship will likely become less pleasant in the future. I wish you good luck.

Try a professional therapist with both of you. Her mind is closed and you can't open it. Sometimes when they hear the exact same thing but from someone elses mouth they will listen like its the first time they have heard it. I had an ex like that. Her dad was a mtf 100% in his 40's and she thought I was going to do the same thing. Just a REALLY STRANGE coincidence, but nothing more. I couldn't stand her insecurities and her need for control. I was in my 20's and NOBODY could control me, so she was totally outmatched when she tried to control me. She would try everything, nothing worked so she tried to deny me sex as it was the only thing she had control over, but she could only go a few days without it and I really didn't care if we had sex or not. She had lost all control she thought she had over me at that point, and she would do the exact same thing bringing up the CD'ing and connect it to random bitching. I got sick of her insecurities and moved out of the house leaving everything behind except the dog. So try a third party...

Great essay. First, remember...we are not females genetically...x vs y. While we dress and act like women, we don't have a clue about their emotions, insecurities, etc. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus (read the book twice)..it helped trying to get more insight on the feminine mystique...but..??? Historically, women have been suppressed, mentally and socially, leaving only sex and control as their defenses..and it seems to work for them. I, often see Threads here that reflect these controls, i.e. she lets me dress M-W-F, I can dress, but can't shave my legs, hide your things, do your own laundry, etc. The Pink Fog makes us accept this.."Any port in a storm". Then there are those who, for many reasons, chose not to tell and sooner or later many get caught creating the dishonesty/control (as punishment) syndrome. I have an accepting and supportive wife, even she draws the line at going out dressed, let alone going out together. Because we live in a small town where discovery would be a disaster, maybe she's right. I don't think there's an answer other than try to come some reasonable compromise, continue talking and reading.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

Is DADT ultimately just a manifestation of a spouse's other insecurities...

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No, I think DADT is ultimately a sign of cowardice and fear - from both parties involved. It is an extremely unhealthy state of tension in what should be a relationship built on mutual trust and respect. Choosing to ignore something that breeds animosity between two people will only serve to widen the rift in all aspects of the relationship.

I was very, very alarmed to read the amount of hate and vitriol in your description of your wife. And from the way you tell it, she probably feels disgusted with you too.

I strongly urge both you and your wife to get professional help and see a marriage counselor, before your marriage become unsalvageable.

DADT is simply a state which exists because women are uncomfortable with the idea that their male mate isn't 'all male'. Let's face it, we evolved over perhaps millions of years, where females depended upon males for provision and protection. loss of a male mate would make her and her offspring much more susceptible to dying and/or starving. So perhaps a certain degree of discomfort is build into them in order to make them more likely to always have a masculine mate. Any sign of femininity could potentially signal that he might not always protect or provide for her, which might threaten the survival of her dna line. Over time, women with lesser desire for a masculine mate would gradually die off faster, leaving the ones with a greater need for males to reproduce more frequently, and also have their offspring survive as well. So, sure, you might call it an innate insecurity, but like a fear of heights, it's not something that is easily overcome. You can be brave and try to ignore the feeling, but the feeling will be there anyway, whether you can rationalize it or not. And I believe that is what we are dealing with, a subconscious fear, that we can't get them to ignore. Women work primarily with their feelings, not logic, so it's going to be difficult (and often impossible) to get them to ignore what they already feel. So either falling in love with one of us, or remaining in romantic, passionate love with us, is not going to be common. Basically, we're pretty much screwed. As time goes on, I do believe that as gender roles and appearances merge closer together, we'll find an increase in the percentage of females who will accept what is today considered 'only female acceptable behavior', in males, but it isn't going to increase drastically any time soon. The underlying attraction to masculinity, and revulsion to femininity in males, is too ingrained to be quickly ignored.

Very well said Lexi, summarized as "women like their dudes to be dudes".

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Originally Posted by Mirya

No, I think DADT is ultimately a sign of cowardice and fear - from both parties involved. It is an extremely unhealthy state of tension in what should be a relationship built on mutual trust and respect. Choosing to ignore something that breeds animosity between two people will only serve to widen the rift in all aspects of the relationship.

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Let's not get too judgmental about DADT. There are degrees of this and what you describe Mirya is certainly the case with some DADT relationships. Fact of the matter is that many women do not wish be constantly reminded of this thing of ours as a matter of course in their day to day lives, hence the expression DADT. My own situation is not too different that what Michelle describes above and I call it Y,W (yeah, whatever). This means that there is enough communication on the subject but I don't go out of my way to throw it in her face...often! There is little or no walking on eggshells. She knows fully of my nature, my routines and going out & about doesn't pose issues as long as I don't try to schedule stuff when we have family plans (I don't). There is a level of understanding on her part of who I am and respect on my part regarding her boundaries. Regardless, as in nearly any situation like this, the pendulum is clearly in my favor overall.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

as Miss Argentina said in Beetlejuice (paraphrased) "This is what happens with your wife. That is what happens with his wife. That's what happens with their wives. It's all very personal." You can make the assumption on why your wife does what she does but we can never know why anyone else does anything

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I loved the Beetlejuice paraphrase... In Anna Karenina, Tolstoy found another way to say the same sort of thing: Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

When i read posts like this, I can not relate. I would say "I wish I could" but truth is, I am happy I can't. My SO is fully on board, fully accepting and very supportive. she never has had a hang up about it, never questioned where this may or may not go, and when she does bring it up in conversation, it's always positive or for a chuckle at my expense but never to hurt my feelings. I really don't understand how any of you deal with it.

These posts are the reason that a lot of dressers feel it's unsafe to tell their SO's about their dressing and with good reason. I am not saying they shouldn't be made because we need both sides of the coin here for discussions, support, and such.

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Originally Posted by Fiona123

The problem with dadt is that it puts the partner in charge of when one can dress

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I agree with this and from what Leslie posted it shows that they are given more power than just when you can dress. It becomes a weapon to be used at any given time that the insecurities pop up or whatever it is when it happens. DADT has always seemed like a self destructive thing to me. If My SO wasn't on board the way she is, I probably would have left her because to say You love me but not accept a part of me is nothing more than a lie itself.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

I agree with this and from what Leslie posted it shows that they are given more power than just when you can dress. It becomes a weapon to be used at any given time that the insecurities pop up or whatever it is when it happens. DADT has always seemed like a self destructive thing to me. If My SO wasn't on board the way she is, I probably would have left her because to say You love me but not accept a part of me is nothing more than a lie itself.

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On the flip side of the coin I've read numerous threads where the cross dressing husband has offered his wife the "take it or leave" attitude. Sort of shove it in her face. DADT can work fine as long as both parties are on board with the negotiated boundaries. If I were a woman who had a husband who would throw his will around I'd kick his butt out the door, and, it would not matter what the issue was.

You use the phrase "it becomes a weapon to be used at any given time that the insecurities pop up or whatever it is when it happens. Sort of made me chuckle to read that sentence. It's only a weapon if you allow it to be a weapon. In a DADT marriage you should feel free to openly leave the domicile fully en femme and interact with the local population, friends, family and coworkers. No? The only person you should not force your cross dressing upon is the woman you're married to, who is not appreciative of it. One of the problems seems to be when a person tries to hide his cross dressing from everyone but his wife.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

...in her mind, she is both blameless and "perfect"... a very controlling, self-centered (and to some degree, manipulative) individual who loves to wrap herself in the mantle of victimhood when she feels hard done by and doesn't immediately get her way... my wife's need to be in full control at all times...

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Wow, and you're with her because...?

DADT is a compromise. Nothing more, nothing less. The wife doesn't want to see or participate in the husband's dressing but doesn't want to end the marriage and the husband doesn't want to stop dressing or end the marriage. It's not an ideal situation but it works for some marriages.

It's not a matter of control or selfishness, it is what I posted.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

to say You love me but not accept a part of me is nothing more than a lie itself.

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I spend a good part of each day trying to manage DADT with my wife, and it is probably a typical DADT. Everyone is right here to some degree, but Krisi has summarized it perfectly- it is a purposeful compromise, given our set of facts. Joanne, you are really fortunate, and although the option to end the relationship is always present, it is often a baby and bathwater problem. When there is so much good to save, we do DADT, if that is the way to keep going.

I annoy my wife by trying to renegotiate the terms, as I feel what is expressed in the quote above. Our daughter agrees with me on that, despite the fact that she too doesn't like seeing me dressed in "women's" clothes, but feels spouses should be committed to 100% support. My wife is not mean or selfish, however, she is more like emotionally fragile and fearful, and feels safety in conforming to social norms. She is thrilled to be the woman who has attracted a competent man. Seeing me feeling feminine explodes that for her. She feels it is like I am shouting at her "I am not who you married. I am a social misfit, and I love it" ...and a thousand more words that undermine her sense of stability and a good future. At the same time, she puts up with me dressing at home, and the fact that I am not shouting, but clearly vulnerable emotionally and asking for her support helps her moderate her fears. All that said, she is dead serious that she has no intention of trying to do psychic surgery on herself to remove her revulsion.

So DADT for me is a process of cheerfully going out, and trying to not dress as much as possible at home so that we can enjoy our time together. I do see it as a necessary act on my part as one of the ways I love her and then honor her reality.

I think she and most DADT wives are actually suffering a lot. Their world has lost its center, and they too are unstable and trying to get by. I think it is fair to say that marriage is difficult because two people are guaranteed to differ in important ways, and this is just one of them. DADT also applies when a couple have different religions or politics.

More to the point, though, porn indulgence or gambling and such vices will often be dealt with this way, with the expectation that the partner whose behavior could lead to bigger problems is expected also to keep it under control. I think cross-dressing is seen more like a vice than a religious commitment, and even when we try to get the focus onto gender identity, we will be fighting that perception of it being a personal vice until more of the reasons for it are understood, and a more generous acceptance is widespread.

On a lighter note, we can all hope that crossdressing can become more like football watching or auto restoration, where it is seen as an obsession but- oh well- it is common and people can drop by!

Leslie,
Most of your words sound Oh so familiar !
It's a good question, is it about the Cding or more about losing control ?

I must admit my wife knows I shop but I'm so careful with the amount I spend , she could hardly throw the same comment back at me , most of my things are from charity shops.

If you have read my thread in Loved Ones you will get my current picture, it's finally come to an agreeable separation , I finally had the tearful outburst that she has rejected so much of me to the point where she now accepts it hurt me deeply.

I'm sorry it's come to this but we are now making sensible plans with the full knowledge of the children, we accept that we will be happier going our separate ways . We still plan to be there for each other and to support our children and grandchildren . OK it's not all about my CDing we just don't have enough in common, our lives are developing in different ways , now we've accepted this fact we are working together to make the house shipshape for selling. We are even making jokes about who gets what from the house contents, we talk about honesty on the forum well we are now facing facts and being honest with each other .

DADT proved to be an unworkable one sided compromise , all the promises eventually get thrown aside, in the end it only works out as a temporary solution, it's not a workable lifetime arrangement . It also does not stop the pain and suffering on either side .

You are wrestling with two problems, Leslie. Being retired and trying to find time to dress inoffensively.

Much of the difficulty in relationships involving a cder comes from the ideas they have about female behaviour. Given the opposite, how charitable would you be if your wife decided to go FTM? You are right about female insecurities, but if you took more time to appreciate how they got there you might be more sympathetic when you are on the end of them.

At least you are honest, it tends to be your cding that is the flashpoint. So whatever insecurities are displayed are a direct result of what can be seen or the behaviours you display when dressed. Presumably, your female self, whom you write about in such glowing terms deserves a better reception, although you never make any claims at interaction other than with sales assistants.

Being retired as a cder does throw up a lot of issues as recent times here in the UK have shown (on the helpline of the largest group offering help to women). Quite often women simmer over a lot of small issues and then something provokes an outburst. It does appear as if the comments made have a similarity and repetitiveness about them. Justifying your feelings about the substance may placate you but clearly your wife has issues which could be explored.

Hope the parcel was worth it!!!