You took away her choice to accept ..........

In another post CharGG made an excellent point when she said :

".... Just remember, you took away her choice to accept your CDing when you married her without letting her know. ...."

I thought this topic might be worth its own thread.

In my previous relationship my ex had a drinking problem , as a middle child of two alcoholic parents, it became an issue that severely affected our relationship. Although she was not an alcoholic, she certainly was a mean drinker.

Its interesting to note that almost every couple has 2 or 3 things in their relationship that remained hidden during the dating portion of the relationships and sometimes years INTO a relationship. Think about it , when you are dating you spend 8-10 hours a week with someone when a week has 168 hours in it !

Things hidden in a relationship;

. Finances (lack of,excess of,bankruptcy)
. Debt (student loans,credit cards,personal loans)
. Previous marriages (past AND current marriages)
. Attachments in toxic relationships. (to parents,friends,co workers,past relationships)
. Alcohol or Drug Use
. Gambling
. Children from previous marriages.
. Job (status of current or 'between' jobs)
. Health Issues
. Sexual Preferences or Problems
. Trouble in the relationship
. Extramarital Affairs
. Personal Success (Yes, Strange but true)
. Hidden Bank Accounts
. Religious views or No Religious Views
. Changing Views (This seems to be the biggest one of all)

OK, but not sure where you're going with this? Because one of these things might be hidden then all of them (including crossdressing) are fine? That doesn't seem correct. Maybe that none of those things should be hidden? That would get a "strongly agree" from me. But, still, I don't know what point YOU are trying to make here.

ok yes I am one of those you are talking about. I am guilty of 4 of those that I didn't tell my wife about oh she did find about them later all but 1 and I am not sayin anything about it.

Leann
Yes we should come clean when we talk about what we want and what we are all about

Good point Pat,

For myself dressing was never about taking a choice away from my ex, there were things like the drinking that made me wonder from time to time about whether I would have married in the first place. From her point of view it probably would have been an issue. With Jeannie I was upfront from the beginning and it was not a issue, so it was her choice.

I was wondering form a forum point of view who in hindsight felt they took the choice from their spouse and if there were other things that would have changed the outcome of there relationship given a choice.

Can you imagine a 50 page questionnaire prior to getting into a relationship ? ..... Oh wait its called Match.com

That Blue line is killing me! possibly not my colour!

A True Artist would never go down the track which you have!

All I can see is Negativity, and a Whole lot of it!

Stacy!

I put the ball in her court telling her in a long letter the summer we were apart during college (and the summer before we were married). Her response? I got a package in the mail about a week or so later with a bright pink bra/pantie/garter set in it...

That comment by CharGG was (by its wording) directed at those who already married without revealing. We know that now. But we didn't know it then. Many of us married honestly believing that the desire for our bride would replace the desire to crossdress. We were wrong but couldn't have known it then, especially for those of us who grew up pre-internet and when cross-gender behavior was a psychological disorder in need of treatment or a crime in need of punishment.
Encourage now those about to marry to reveal all, but do it without bashing those of us who didn't.

There are may things newlyweds still have to learn about each other - what their favorite food might be, how ticklish someone is. What brand of toothpaste must they use. All things most of us consider of inconsequential meaning.

Your list mentions several which do significantly impact the current relationship, many because of the direct personal interactions of the 2 people, but some from outside - other individuals or society's views of those things. I put CDing into the category of impacted more due to society's views about it, while TS would be much more direct.

Many of use grew up knowing little about the prognosis of CDing, so we hoped it would go away when you found your love, and it does for a time. But all here are proof it returns and then are called liars, when we did not know it would return. We were never asked about it, so we did not lie, but did withhold the full truth as we did not see a benefit.
Just a view,
Ellen

NicoleScott

No bashing intended. You nake a lot of great points.

The one thing that the younger generation thankfully has is a more understanding culture, better mental heath care , more choices, less stigma and hatred then earlier generation. I'm thankful that they do not have to go through what many of us have had to go through.

In some ways I would love for the older generations to learn from the younger ones.

If I understand Kelly correctly (and her answer to Char's targeted demonizing of crossdressing as being in a special category all of it's own as far as "unacceptable" behavior is concerned), her point is that people bring all sorts of - and sometimes unrevealed - baggage into a marriage or a relationship. Any of these might result in unexpected and often intolerable levels of stress that may ultimately result in its disintegration.

I can think of dozens of "vices" to add to Kelly's list that - if looked at logically or dispassionately - are innately far worse or destructive than crossdressing. And yet, society seems to have positioned this predilection as being some sort of extraordinarily perverted and shameful type of indulgence for which zero tolerance is often indicated.

Clearly, logic has nothing to do with this...it is all about "feelings": a GG's sense of her own femininity, attractiveness, and perception of self-worth (and dare I say it? - "jealousy"?) in relation to this "other woman" who is sometimes seen as a potential competitor with regard to her partner's affection and attraction to her. That, and the terrible fear that accepting a crossdressing husband or SO by default makes her a lesbian, which she decidedly is NOT, given her strong innate attraction to the masculine.

As those of us living in a DADT relationship can attest to, dealing with this type of rejection and hostility it is like being in a constant state of opposing ying and yang forces, and both partners suffer equally as a result. We may have done or spouses or SO's wrong in not revealing this side of ourselves before marriage, but they often more than make up for this sin of omission by making our lives miserable afterwards as their form of payback.

I agree and identify with the points made by Nicole Scott. I had an interest in crossdressing when I married, but had not done so for more than 10 years and was not sure that I ever would again . . . so there was no need for much discussion (it was only mentioned in passing on one occasion). The world has changed and what was an illness is now acceptable, at least by many people. Dating and sharing information has changed a lot, but there still are things that will not be shared -- for whatever the reasons. Frankly, I can see the list changing but believe that there will always be things that are held back to avoid rejection, etc.

Kelly, I also see your point. There are many many vice's and problems that are hidden. also the basic personality is important. Many of these thing we did not know when we were young. So we try to help the younger ones as we went though a lot of issues to be where we are today and many of the marriages are still surviving. Although some may be in trouble. For me, wow I was in two marriages and many girlfriends before I found one that accepts me. So it can be long road to find acceptance.

While I still love her ( and would have anyway) my GF had several of the things you listed that I found out after her sudden death. It STILL hurts when I think of them. Not that she did them but that she didn't trust ME enough to tell me about it so I could make my own decision That somehow she thought she knew how i would react. Most were fixable or inconsequential. My feelings are in Bold below. But that's MY feelings. Your spouse may have more rigid fences

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

Things hidden in a relationship;


. Debt (student loans,credit cards,personal loans) (Could have worked it out and together have resolved)
. Previous marriages (past AND current marriages) (Those were in the past and not now. While I may not like her former spouses, they are HER former spouses. Even though one was physically and mentally abusive, it was in the past...not now)

. Children from previous marriages. (From the above. I have since met one of her children -the other we have no idea where he is- and I really like my GF's daughter, although I find her a little off center. She probably thinks the same of me. The one thing that would have changed is mt GF would not have had to hide the fact and could have spent more open time with her. Hard to imagine how my GF must have hurt being separated like that but it was her choice)
. Health Issues (which led to her death because she didn't want me to know about it)

. Extramarital Affairs (some I knew, some I didn't. Since we weren't married, it didn't matter but it showed how she had some issues with trying to loved and accepted by serial affairs before)

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None of these were deal killers. But she must have thought they were. Point is she really didn't know. Would I have been shocked? Yes. Would I have paused? Probably. But we could have worked them out. She didn't give me the chance. That implied a lack of trust and that's what hurts. Not what happened, but the idea that she didn't trust me. Before you all start asking: Yes she knew about ALL my previous relationships. Yes she knew I was Trans (and she embraced that part of me). I gave her the info and choice. She was able to make her decision based on pertinent information. Isn't that all we can do? Don't you enter into any contract assuming that both sides are honest and up front? And if later you find that one wasn't, isn't it common to dissolve that contract? I used to use the analogy of a foundation. Your relationship is built on a foundation. If that foundation is solid and you know that the building materials are strong, even if you know an inherent weakness, you can make sure the building stands. But is you hide something that could weaken that foundation, with time, it could crumble. If it crumbles early, before you get the structure built up, the collapse is minor and can be handled. If you wait until you have built the house then the collapse is much greater and harder to weather. It is also harder to rebuild because there will always be that worry that it could happen again. That the foundation could have other flaws you don't know and cannot fix before they become fatal flaws.

I can see where some of these items could be a problem, even a big one. But in my case none of them apply. Our reltionship has always been totally open and there have never been any secrets and all past items were fully open and discussed before we married. Even my dressing was discussed before I started. I am lucky in that aspect. Sure there can be bumpsin the road related to my dressing, but they are open and solved.

Sadly, as Sometimes Miss often points out, only about half on a percent of women really want a man who crossdresses. NIMBY! lIVE AND LET LIVE. Some secrets are better left secret, if they would cause havoc.

Even if we disclose everything we think our potential partner needs to know through the dating process and maybe after living together for a while, who says we will stay the same person from that point on? We always change, develop new interests or offshoots of old interests, succumb to new diseases, learn new skills and adopt new views as we grow. The foundation of the relationship needs to be love, including trust and respect for the other person. We talk about unconditional love. It means understanding the person well enough to accept and celebrate positive changes and support them as they fight the negative.

My late wife accepted my trans side that I honestly thought was well behind me when we married, and I supported her as she battled the cancer we never thought would take her life. There is no pre-nuptuial that can address the unexpected and none of us can predict the future. Creating a list of "deal breakers" is, to me, a sign that the relationship isn't based totally in love and respect but very much in self preservation.

Okay, I'll take off my rose colored glasses now and face reality. It is incumbent on each one to let the other person in a relationship those things they are aware of that may damage or challenge the relationship before they fully commit. Try our best and go from there I guess.

I am not sure if I did or didn't. I told my wife before marriage I had a fetish, which at the time was true. Now I want to dress head to toe just for fun, no fetish, well mostly. So now her choice is different from before we were married. I also want to travel the world, sometimes on my own and sometimes with her, I didn't realise I did before marriage. My point is it's not as simple as you say but we must surely all agree before marriage it's best to be honest, which I think is the real answer to the unasked question in this thread. But if u don't understand yourself how can you be honest.

Kelly, my bashing comment wasn't aimed at you, but at your quote of CharGG. It should have been framed as advice to those who haven't already married before revealing. Too late for those of thst didn't,

Kelly,
The assumption is we are perfect without any vices or hangups, and we enter marriage whiter than white. Your list suggests how many problems we could take into a marriage and possibly more beside . As you say how many do we disclose and importantly how many does our partner disclose.

OK the core subject of the forum is CDing so that is the one Char honed in on, but as I've said before we don't enter marriage thinking we are lying or misleading anyone. I was naive to think all women would be OK with it after having GFs that were OK with it. It was far more sexual then and the high it gave me was more than enough to satisfy most and what young girl would turn down as much as she could handle. So where is the dishonesty and cheating ? From the other angle my wife didn't tell me she wasn't that bothered about sex, yes she wanted babies so did she sell me short ?

I accept it is a shock for a wife to find out, a revelation like that would probably shock me, but life and marriage is far more than that, many of us have given all for the marriage and family , and get repaid by being shunted into a situation where we are made to feel guilty and ashamed of something we truly don't understand and find hard to accept. Sadly many of our close family don't realise how much it tears us apart until we come to terms with it , we may get them on board then and live what we think are happy lives but in reality being asked to live a compromised existence . I've found that they only work short term, the damage is done , we are the villains of the peace ,we have lied cheated and deceived and should be constantly punished for it. I've had to say this has gone on long enough, I'm being punished for something I cannot change, I was born with this trait and it's never going away, so now we both finally have been honest and agreed to separate, she honestly can't live with it and I honestly can't live without. The truth is whatever drives our CDing is a powerful force , which in my case was put there at birth and became permanent when I sexually developed , I now accept it's the most overpowering force in my life overriding all the DADT rules my wife can throw at me , she now tearfully accepts she shouldn't have rejected that side of me , I repeatedly tried to tell how much she was hurting me , and that eventually she would be the loser .

I've also said this before but when it gets to this stage the real talking starts , it is sad it has to come to this but we are only separating and the conversation at the moment is all very amicable . We are working together to sort the house and contents out, I have talked about suitable houses and where I will relocate to , we are still going to share child care responsibilities, we are still intending to take holidays together if it's somewhere we both want to visit. We are also accepting we will have more time for our own interests and friends, we both now concede we will be happier in this situation than remaining together. Yes the big issue is how much will I dress, and she did ask the question if I would start taking medication , the simple answer I gave her is it will be my choice, she is losing that control , I won't have to lie to her anymore .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

society seems to have positioned this predilection as being some sort of extraordinarily perverted and shameful type of indulgence for which zero tolerance is often indicated.

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^this is the problem. Everyone has things they don't tell their mate. Everyone. It's simply impossible to recount every single thing in our lives. So, we leave out what we deem unimportant. For many, something we've done in the past that hurt no one, and expect to never do again, seems particularly innocent, in comparison to a lot of other much more serious problems that seem easily forgiven. My ex was treated for major depression. She, of course, never mentioned it.

I was thinking earlier today about how it might be nice to have a partner.
But THEN, I get on forums and realize being single isn't so bad.
I get on this one music forum and sometimes they talk about how their wives disapprove of their stereos (often quite elaborate) or whatever. Sad, just sad...

It ain;t even about crossdressing it is more about someone wanting to dictate how someone else lives.

But in keeping with "what we don't tell our prospective S.O -
I guess I would have to be honest and say, "I do what I want, when I want without asking "mother may I?"

Crossdressing is an excellent excuse to dislike your spouse if you are already unhappy in your marriage.

In an ideal world I guess we would want to go into a relationship with no "baggage" which could include CDing but our world and society is far from ideal, so we make it through the best we can, "baggage" included. :)

Healing is always possible. Relationships are worth the effort.

Kelly, anyone NOT able to discuss every item on your list, and many more, fully and completely is NOT ready for marriage.:thumbsdn:

And, is dooming their's to failure. I wonder how many of the 60% of marriages that fail r because on one or the other partner limited their communication? My guess is it's HEAPS!:sad:

My first Wife, yes, Cross dressing was a big No-No- and after 9 years and 2 kids, divorce, a bad one.
Now my 2 ND Wife, she knew that I liked dressing on our 2 ND Date. She was OK with it, and we where
Married; for over 9 very happy years; She passed away about 3 years ago.
We had some house rules, and I was OK with that. She would buy me things to wear, and dress me up.
I just was not allowed to go out dressed.
Rader