Crossdressing viewed as negotiation for acceptance

I like thinking of crossdressing as rather well explained when I see it as negotiation for some level of acceptance for participation in the feminine.

We are negotiating with various groups via representative individuals, with the goal of generalizing our win. The groups are the general public, members of this forum, our SOs. family, friends, work mates, corporate policymakers, local crazies, and our own inner critics. All of these partners are subject to all sorts of influences, so their position changes even while we are negotiating- hence the difficulty we find in feeling we have succeeded.

By way of example, my starting position is that I am a mirl, and I am essentially bidding for signs of agreement from each party that my version of mirl is accepted as legitimate, and welcomed to be part of society with friendly inclusiveness. Secondarily I am negotiating to be seen as attractive to at least some people. My negotiation is rarely with words [except here], and is done with visual clues from dress, grooming, body language, and visible actions.

Using this metaphor, the diversity of CD presentation is specifically understood as representing the diversity and level of detail with which a CD sees the target feminine identity.

Hobby dressers are negotiating with the position that dressing is about the clothes and grooming, rather than deep identity. Those with gender issues will try to portray heir version of acceptability, up to social transition. TS folks will offer up a sex change to strengthen and clinch their argument.

The benefit of seeing it this way is that everyone is right- we are all guided by internal views of our gender and a target appearance as the correct image of our identity. And that everyone opposing us is also negotiating- with ignoring us, threats, or argument. People helping us are agreeing to provide acceptance in the world they represent, to lighten our load. But they can only negotiate for one slice of life.

One could also say that crossdressing is not a useful or successful technique in negotiating for feminine identity. This would be true for any parts of that identity that are not comprised of clothing norms. It is interesting to look at what, in the absence of clothes, makes a person eligible to be called a 'woman', or feminine, and then work back up to the way we attach and conflate clothing which is designed for that woman.

Using this model, how would you say your negotiation goal? Here are two prompts:
1. "I crossdress as a way to gain ..[what feeling or status] .. from .....[who].
2. "I style myself to explain the following about me to onlookers ...... "

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Originally Posted by phili

Hobby dressers are negotiating with the position that dressing is about the clothes and grooming, rather than deep identity. Those with gender issues will try to portray heir version of acceptability, up to social transition. TS folks will offer up a sex change to strengthen and clinch their argument.

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Sorry, but that makes no sense. Argument for what?

Phili, this is an intriguing topic and I have detailed thoughts concerning my experiences with this. It deserves a far more detailed answer than I can give at 4:00 in the morning and I am hoping to give a fully comprehensive answer this evening, provided the work day hasn't beaten me down too much!

Sorry Phili, I understand your point but I can't fill in your two prompts.

You see, I'm not negotiating anything with anyone. I'm not styling myself for anyone elses benefit. My presentation is for my own well being, I don't really care if people get the correct message, the wrong message or any message at all. They can live their lives and I'll live mine. Someone once asked me, and I quote, 'doesn't it worry you that others (men or women) may think you are gay because of your presentation even though you are not?'. My answer, 'no why the hell would it?'. For that to be a problem I would have to be homophoic (i.e. consider an assumption of being gay a negative thing which I do not) or single and actively looking for a new female partner (which I'm not). The point is they can think what they like, I don't want to dictate their thinking on anything.

I'll admit you are different though. Now please do not see this as a criticism but reading your posts it seems you are always negotiating with someone (your wife perhaps) or everyone. It is as if you are constantly rationalising to justify your behavior even though no such justification is needed. Personally I believe this all boils down to the hurt this causes your wife and the pain that in turn causes you. No amount of negotiating will enable anyone to give you the permission you seek to carry on, only you can do that and only you know the consequences.

Some interesting thoughts Phili, if I were you I would think more about what you are trying to achieve with your question.

I think it has been muddled by too much overthinking on your part.

I could not stretch to no one or two as you describe.

You haven't got your point across to me yet.

Following the metaphor, it seems I’m still negotiating with myself. As yet, I haven’t clearly decided the least acceptable outcome, which makes the complicates the rest of the process.

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Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Argument for what?

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I see this is a wrongly stated. I do know that sex change is a personal decision to resolve dysphoria for the transsexual, and is not undertaken for the purpose of negotiation.

It may look like a negotiating tactic from the point of view of casual or hostile observers who resist accepting the reality of transgender experience. For them the commitment to a sex change and all that comes with it is a powerful statement in the argument that transexuality is real and societal norms about birth sex being determinate of gender are false.

It doesn't stop naysayers from coming back with their views, of course. ;0( But this is the societal negotiation going on- we have not settled any of the basic social and cultural and even scientific arguments about gender.

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Originally Posted by DaisyLawrence

I'm not negotiating anything with anyone. I'm not styling myself for anyone elses benefit. My presentation is for my own well being, I don't really care if people get the correct message, the wrong message or any message at all. They can live their lives and I'll live mine.

... it seems you are always negotiating with someone (your wife perhaps) or everyone. It is as if you are constantly rationalising to justify your behavior even though no such justification is needed. Personally I believe this all boils down to the hurt this causes your wife and the pain that in turn causes you. No amount of negotiating will enable anyone to give you the permission you seek to carry on, only you can do that and only you know the consequences.

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Hi Daisy, the negotiation metaphor definitely doesn't seem to be apply or be of use to you! You are done with negotiation! And that seems like the place we all want to be-

Yes, I am constantly negotiating, and yes, with my wife. I have finished my negotiations with the rest of society, and as best I can see, they also feel it is complete, and accept my expression of identity as a mirl and treat me very reasonably..

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

I would think more about what you are trying to achieve with your question.
You haven't got your point across to me yet.

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Beverly,
I split my time between two goals> making my own life easier and trying to share what I learn with others for the same purpose. I am an analytical type, obviously, and that draws legitimate criticism for overthinking. That thinking mostly seems necessary to me, but I would stop if there was a more efficient way forward in sight!

If the metaphor isn't useful, don't use it!

Phili,
I know we are often guilty of lumping groups in the same box , I'm possibly guilty of that when I talk about the general public . We mustn't forget they are all individuals with their own set of problems . There could so many reasons why we feel we are in a negotiating situation . We may be confronting a man or a woman wth TG problems of their own , we are far from unique in this situation .

In many ways things are getting better ,I know I relate a great deal to shopping and SAs but now I come to think of it the changes may be happening quicker for us through this channel . I wouldn't like to put a figure on it as to what percentage it applies to but many store now are training their staff to be TG friendly , that has a ripple effect . They get to know more about the situation , they may even be TG themselves or a partner , family member or good friend so there is a spread of greater understanding and acceptance . Another aspect could be the feedback to manufacturers of the size of the TG market they are looking at . Do we not see far more examples now of CDing in advertising .

In the UK we are seeing schools , colleges, armed forces and others accepting the TG issue . In another thread there was talk of the change of labels , we may even see the transvestite/ crossdressing label dropped in these situations they are almost a senseless term .

You appear to make the clothes the centre of the debate , to me they are only part of the equation , I feel they are a window to the outside World of how I feel inside , I find it hard to answer your two prompt questions I feel I don't see my situation relates to them . To deal with the first I feel I'm not crossdressing any more as it's full time, I've not negotiated anything I've just done it . To deal with the second prompt my style is as I see myself not as others do . I have had several women say I'm a stylish lady but I was comfortable with myself before any told me that .

The crux is whatever your label you have to be comfortable with yourself , believe in yourself that doesn't leave much to negotiate over , it's a case of going out there and doing what you believe in .

I cross dressed because I enjoyed it for myself and was not really concerned with what others thought, i.e. no negotiations with anyone, not even myself.

I style myself in the styles that I like hoping to replicate that same look that some women carry out so well.

Now, I agree with what Daisy said so well. No negotiations of my presentations which so clearly reflect who I am. Yes, I may be working on getting acceptance from a very few that I love and love me, but are having difficulties of me being me outwardly. But, my world and life do not stop there. Their lives may get bumped. I do not need to learn how to be with them. They need to learn how to be with me. I hope that makes sense. You are very analytical and look at some things in a much broader societal and interesting way. Since you have to negotiate with your wife, which I believe is not always easy for most people, does what you say make any sense to her and help her? If not try a different approach, because, otherwise, it may eventually backfire in the a bad way.

I don’t think any of this applies to me. I’ve never felt like I was “negotiating”.

Phili, I had a good long think over this though the day, particularly about the 'negotiation with your own inner critics' bit, I think it may be clumsily stated, but I think I understand your point. For me, they are not 'critics' but inner drives. I had a good long think about my self identity and identity to others, and for me, I like myself very much in all of my forms and stages, this is another journey for me and one that has a strong spiritual element as well. I thought long and hard about a detailed response along those lines including the possibility of a separate thread to give a full account of myself and just how this play into my spiritual life as well as my psychological and physical self.

But, it all boils down to a line from an old System of a Down song:

"Because you wanted to!"

The rest is mostly just window dressing.

First of all, let us better define "acceptance". I'll postulate that we're talking about societal acceptance; that which pertains to being able to enjoy the same rights, privileges and opportunities as cis-folk. I'm not talking about being accepted by this or that person or group who objects because of some misguided notion of morality. Most of that lot are irrational about such things, so there would be little point.

If were to "negotiate" for acceptance, I would be admitting that I need that acceptance so much that I am willing to offer up something in return. For me, at least, that very notion is absurd. Sure, I want that acceptance, but there is no need to bargain for it, at all. I deserve it. No. I am not "special" and ask for nothing beyond that to which everyone is equally entitled. Maybe ask is not the right word. I expect and demand it.

i love your defining yourself as a "mirl"; a phrase that should be added to our CD vocabulry, if not already incorporated.

I don't feel the negotiation part, but it might look that way to you after I explain my rationale:

I am not consciously making any statements, other than "This is who I am, and I'm claiming the same space to which anyone in the world is entitled." I am not loudly declaring "Ta Da! Look at me! What do you think of that? Deal with it!"

Having said that, as a large man in a dress, I know people notice when they see me. So I feel strongly the responsibility to represent crossdressing as tastefully and presentably as possible. I choose my purchases carefully, vetting them with store SAs I trust, and use the same care when putting together my outfit for the day. So that after the initial "WTF is that?" that some might think when they first see me, I'm hoping they can get past that and realize that "He puts it together well and makes it work"

I add to that a demeanor that is pleasant and respectful of everyone. And I'm almost always at my most joyful because, hey, I feel like I'm looking my best and loving it. People close to me tell me I light up the room. I don't know about that.


So, while I'm dressing for my own happiness and well-being, I HOPE that the world is learning from me that a crossdresser is not the same as a drag queen or transwoman or anything else. He is a regular person except that his clothing choices are outside the norm, but still in good taste. If I am seen by a closeted crossdresser, it's my hope that he's thinking "If he can do it, so can I"

Well this is interesting! I thought this was going to be snapped up as a useful idea!! I find negotiation is a good metaphorical model for all sorts of things in human interaction from how we decide to say hello to our wife in the morning, to job interviews and how we play tennis, etc.

The value of seeing crossdressing as negotiation for me was to get away from the self-centered view- 'it is what I want to do' and see it as a communication, with a purpose. This cooled my emotions and let me think more clearly about what exactly I was expecting to happen in terms of agreement I sought when I crossdressed, rather than limiting my thinking to only "OMG I did it!", which I freely admit is enough of a reason.

Being unconscious of what I am communicating and to whom and for what purpose is common enough. We are probably aware of it in our choice of car to buy, or in when we wave a sports team flag, and in choice of words in emails, but sometimes, as in how we speak to our children or parents, or when and how we pick fights with spouses, we may not fully appreciate the message in our tone and the not always pristine results we seek.

For what it is worth, here is how I think about it for myself. All the following experiences were a negotiation, some successful S and some not F.
As a 4 year old I showed mom my adopted underwear from my sister, proud and asking for and expecting approval. F
As a teen boyfriend I wore panties on my first hot date and didn't flinch when she challenged me. S
As a college age boyfriend candidate I argued long and hard with my gf that I should be able to wear lingerie and dresses and such to feel light in the world. S
As that same boyfriend I wore panties that were tasteful and elegant and no dresses or other feminine clothing, in order to show I was a dependable male and it was a private sexual pleasure, not threatening to social status. S
As an after college dating boyfriend I confidently explained my crossdressing in lingerie, for the purpose of being open and informative, and extending my area of freedom to include babydoll nighties. S
As a closet crossdresser I crossdressed before the mirror and my internal critic to convince myself that I was attractive enough in my own eyes that i could argue for it all to make sense somehow and someday. S

As a marriage prospect I told my wife to be that I crossdressed, in order to be honest, warn her, and win her agreement to make space for it, but did not elaborate or demonstrate or inquire, which are all good negotiation practices. F

As a late stage marriage partner I tried to negotiate space to crossdress freely, and none of my arguments have even been considered. F

As a person on this forum I negotiate with words and pictures, to develop space for MIADs and mirls to be considered acceptable and not have eggs thrown- mostly S.

As a person in the world I go out and dress tastefully and try to hit a medium where my message is that I am a socially normal, and strange but not threatening variant - clearly a mirl, and specifically not a girl- which would bring up bathroom bill type conflicts. I am proposing that the elegance of my outfit creates an artistic justification for the provocative act of wearing a dress. Part of my negotiation strategy is that we can all agree not to inquire whether I am enjoying the sensuality of it and other intimate facts that undoubtedly cross people's minds, but are reserved for women. S

As an example of the benefit of using my metaphor, I realized that I only have issues trying to present [-negotiate acceptance as] a girl. It is too much for most people, and certainly this explains all the helpful advice to get a makeover, to reduce the mental and emotional challenge for others [what I am negotiating for them to give up in terms of convictions and associations about dresses and females being tightly linked].

I also have benefited from thinking more broadly about the negotiation with my wife. To the degree we are just holding our initial positions, we fail. So I am now following better negotiation practices by taking focus off the sticking points and finding more and more points of shared interest, not taking my position too seriously, etc.

I crossdress to both prove my girl status [as part of mirl] AND to enjoy the pleasure of dresses. THe first part is the most important, and i realized that I no longer have to prove it, I can just feel it. So that takes a lot of pressure off the need to negotiate more time visible to her in dresses.

I can now readily admit to myself that i can feel perfectly girly and satisfied on an identity level while in drab- I am a woman in drab- nothing strange about that. I can behave differently and feel more and I don't need to dress up to do that once I have stopped negotiating for the space to feel like a girl.

Yes I really want to be able to enjoy my dresses and be admired, but how many of us women get that every day, and when they want it? Not that many, sadly. So I am taking all the opptys I can get, and that's pretty good. Takes some urgency and bitterness off the table!

I find the 'negotiations' with my wife go like this:
"Honey, what do you think about shaving your arms?"
"I don't know … what if they notice at work?"

Two weeks later and one or two more gentle conversations later …

"Love, I shaved my arms, what do you think?"
"Oh they're so smooth!"

Lol

I'm probably off track as usual Phili, a little Dizzy!

But does it not take an inner beauty to create an outer beauty?

I could never imagine being so pretty on the outer if I were not so on the inner, not possible to me!
Stacy!

Phili,
All of the negotiations you describe are you, going hat in hand, so to speak, asking for approval, not acceptance. Yes there is significant difference, in both the goal and your approach. Acceptance is not something granted. It is something that exists, or not. Asking for approval, again, carries an implicit recognition that the thing needs that approval to be "okay".
I don't need anyone's approval to be okay. I AM okay. Yes, we'd all be happier if everyone accepted that fact, but the fact itself is not dependent on acceptance. There is nothing to negotiate for.

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Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly

Phili,
All of the negotiations you describe are you, going hat in hand, so to speak, asking for approval, not acceptance.

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Or indeed specifically for permission.

Hmmm, I think we are always negotiating [trying to get agreement about something via interactively responding to each other], every time we communicate.

Crossdressing is a provocative/unusual form of communication, and my OP pitch here was that we can usefully strip out some of the emotions that may cloud our view by thinking of crossdressing simply as a form of purposeful speech.

So the simpler version of my OP is "What are you saying by how you dress?" And "Is it understood by those you are saying it to?" and "Are you getting agreement or questions or challenges?"

It is self-evident that from earliest childhood we learn that every time we encounter another human [or dog, for that matter] , or step out the door into a mulltiperson society, we have to negotiate our status and establish how everyone is going to get along with everyone around us. This is true for the fearful newbie, the star performer, and the bully.

Negotiation is ongoing and universal, and does not imply we have lesser power. Even the powerful need to renegotiate their 'power' constantly, through anger, threats, favors, or appearing not to care.

Thanks for all the feedback!

You're thinking too much into this. I'm not negotiating anything with anyone. I just like to wear women's clothes.
I don't need acceptance, I have no guilt, I don't need to justify anything to anyone.
I don't need any kind of label.
I love what I am and what I do, and that is all that matters.

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Originally Posted by HollyGreene

You're thinking too much into this. I'm not negotiating anything with anyone. I just like to wear women's clothes.
I don't need acceptance, I have no guilt, I don't need to justify anything to anyone.
I don't need any kind of label.
I love what I am and what I do, and that is all that matters.

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Plus 1 to that :)

Overthinking this crossdressing thing is the main pre-occupation of many members here. Life is short, stop thinking about it and just live it before it is too late.

+1 from me too.
I'm not negotiating. I'm certainly not trying to make any statement. Oh, I get that that's often how I am perceived, but again, I am just being who I am. And it's not that I don't make statements. I often do, but I make them with words and actions, not clothing.

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Originally Posted by phili

TS folks will offer up a sex change to strengthen and clinch their argument.

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This is ridiculous. A transwoman does not go through surgery for someone/ anyone else!

BTW, a definition of negotiation would look like this;

ne·go·ti·a·tion /nəˌɡōSHēˈāSH(ə) noun, discussion aimed at reaching an agreement.

synonyms:discussion(s), talks, deliberations; conference, debate, dialogue, consultation; mediation, arbitration, conciliation, arrangement, brokering; settlement, conclusion, completion, transaction

My goal is to be myself. No negotiation needed.

If anything, by going out dressed, I feel we are forcing others to negotiate. With us and with themselves.

I concur with the others. There’s a bit of overthinking going on here.

Since no one else has seen me dress...I don't have to worry about onlookers. I don't have a desire to go outside dressed (yet) and I'm still just trying to experiment. I know the kinds of stuff I like wearing and when I do go out and if someone doesn't like it I can't help it.

Until recently I didn't accept this side of myself truly. I was always scared that someone would somehow read my thoughts and know that I was thinking about wearing women's clothes and wanting desperately to try them and hoping that if I was found out that I wouldn't be banished from society or hated by my family or just plain old beat up by some intolerant person. I was hoping for acceptance from everyone for this behavior and that it wouldn't rock the boat and we could all live our lives. But I wasn't accepting myself. I was relying on other people's views of me to define my desires to dress. I was afraid of being thought of as a freak or a deviant or what have you. I'm not exactly considered a "normal" person by society's standards anyway and adding crossdressing into the mix felt like "too much" you know? I would think, "Why is my brain doing this to me? Why do I have so many problems? Who could possibly want to be like me?"

If the worst thing, the most deviant, crazy, terrible thing you do in your life is wearing women's clothing, the way I see it, you're doing just fine as a human being. With all of the actually horrible and terrible things going on in the world, and if someone wants to be upset about me, a 6 foot tall lanky guy, wearing a frilly, lacy, Gothic Lolita dress with all the ribbons and bows I can get on it, then they're worried about the wrong things in life. They want to be mad at me? They should put their efforts into something more useful than getting in my face about the clothes that I bought with my own hard earned money. Personally, I'm tired of trying to bargain with myself and the universe to make me acceptable. I am already. It just took me a while to notice. Crossdressing is just one star that is part of the constellation of me. If people don't want to get to know me just based on my crossdressing then that's their loss.

So basically my negotiation in terms of crossdressing is the same as Michael Corleone at the beginning of Godfather II: You get nothing. I'm not going to stop dressing. I've tried to suppress it but it's not going to happen. Maybe one day I won't need to dress anymore but until that day this is a part of me.

I wish I was actually brave enough to say that to my family...

I find negotiating tedious,boring and counter productive especially in a relationship. Relationships go better if you anticipate your spouses needs wants and desires and they yours. If I have negotiate what I want in a relationship, you end up spending the rest of your life at the emotional car dealership. You are trying to sell something that is over priced, with options you don't want, terms you can't afford, that loses value once you drive it off the lot.