Objectification

Hey girls, I was thinking about something and wanted to ask the hive for your thoughts. I have been dressing my whole life and only started going out in public over the past 18 months. I blend in well but my objective isn't to pass or be confused with a woman, just to enjoy myself. What I have found is that many CDers tend to become obsessed with the female form and, some would argue that we end up objectifying women. In other words, our affinity for CDing could be interpreted as an extension of "the male gaze." You know, that concept that says that women are expected to value themselves based on how men perceive them. I sometimes wonder if by expressing my interpretation of femininity, I am simply perpetuating the notion that a woman's worth lies in her appearance. Hmm...

In my instance, I dress with an appearance that makes me happy. And I'm male.
Is there some kind of social value judgement based on appearance recognition?
And since when has being objectified become such a negative thing? Maybe it is to the insecure.

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

So, if I may, treating anyone as only an object of physical desire is wrong.
But objectification as an instance is merely a harmless emotional response.

Yeah, what Kim said.

I know I've seen the modern Cher and Christina version of Burlesque a few times and I find myself thinking how much i'd love to be that hot and have a body like that.
Of course, I have no real idea how hard it could be, to suddenly be looked at merely as a sex object.
I think I see beauty in much more subtle ways when I look at a pretty woman, and a woman's inner beauty, intelligence and other non visual traits are what I see most.

It's a tricky thing for sure tho.
Cass

I'm sure that some of us strive to be that "perfect" woman, then there is some objectification. However when I do go out as Nikki I do it for myself. I don't go over the top, but I use makeup and some "enhancements" to blend and not be seen as a MIAD. Not knocking those that do the MIAD, but that is not in my comfort zone.
I also tend to dress pretty conservative, although I prefer a skirt or a dress over wearing pants. In other words I just want to be me, those that know me aren't being fooled and I don't mind if I don't always pass.

I've been guilty of staring at beautiful women I actually know. But, I suppose I get away with it because I also treat them as intellectual equals when generously sharing my knowledge, as they don't seem to mind....
I know way more about growing camelias and roses than the master gardeners in my area. I did field trips to the DC area to study camellias.

I think that this is absolutely the case. For myself, and I'd imagine for many here, what drew us to crossdressing was the glamour and beauty of female clothes, makeup, form, and femininity in general. This is why most of us would choose to wear sexy lingerie under a pretty dress w/ our makeup done to the 9s than to wear loose fitting women's jeans and a crew neck. It's an obsession focused very squarely on what I guess would best be defined as traditional feminine beauty and grace. This really cuts against the third-wave feminist belief that men and women are essentially the same and there are no bright lines between female and male traits, dress, and mannerisms. Personally, I don't think that there is anything w/ appreciating the things, intrinsically and extrinsically (e.g., clothes & make-up), that make them special and beautiful. I view it much more as appreciation of specific qualities and characteristics of women rather than objectification.

Oh gee lets blame men for everything shall we?
Women objectify men all the time and nothing happens why is that?
I'm almost afraid to even talk to a women anymore.
Monica you need to stop reading whats in the media these days.

I have always admitted admired pretty, sexy, young women!:daydreaming:

There's nothing about a man in a dress that excites me. But, since Sherry is NOT a projection of me, I make every attempt to have her appear to be a sexy young woman!:D

Let me add, once I get to know women the objectifying stopped. There's many pretty women I don't find attractive after they open their mouth! At that point, I would flirt with them if I wanted to date them. Or, simply be nice if I didn't want a date or couldn't for whatever reason!:love:

Unfortunately, these days I'm too old to date pretty, young women!:doh:
So, Sherry will have to do!:battingeyelashes:

Monica,

On the face of it there is some truth in what you say. However...... as Traci points out, look at the adverts for things such as perfume and the men who appear in those meet a certain stereotype.

It is true that I attempt to look as feminine as I can by the use of padding, corsetry and you could even argue a wig. What I know is I can't achieve is a size zero, that stick thin look that's so often promoted in the glossies. What I'm aiming for is a shape that is typical for a healthy, non obese, female and to that effect I feel I meet my aim. I'm at the larger end of the sizing range, UK 16/18, size 9 shoes and taller than the average GG.

As many will know I'm a "blender" not a "passer" so I don't want to stick out by having such a drop dead gorgeous figure that I draw attention. Healthy average is my goal and looking at what's posted here many of us fall into that category. I'm not decrying those who present as larger ladies. In fact it's they who prove the exception to the rule by the question raised in the post.

Being attractive to the opposite sex is a fundamental driver for the continued existence of a species. Humans however it seems have evolved to have a wide spectrum of what's "sexy". What attracts one, turns off another.

The look I achieve I believe isn't based on a single idealised image of what's feminine. It's more to do with what a health middle aged GG with a certain sense of style would wear to a given venue and that can depend upon disposable income as much as body shape.. I'll loose no sleep over this.

Having worked with an all female staff for many many years I can tell you women objectify men just as much as the other way round. I'm pretty broad minded but some of the things I hear make even me blush. On a personal level I admire women for the way they look because I want to emulate that look, the thought of 'desiring' them in any way doesn't enter my head.

There is nothing wrong with admiring and being attracted to the female form. It’s not that the enlightened don’t have those feeling, it’s that they understand how to act (or not act) on those feelings. Dressing itself is not misogynistic. Now if you were dressing because you thought you could be better at being a woman, THAT would be misogyny.

I think I understand your point here is we want to look like our dream girl as it were with all the curves in the right place and such.
I for one don’t try for that but I wish I had some of those looks but I don’t need to enhance my look to achieve it.
Mostly I just try to hide what I can and just be myself with the body God gave me

I really worry about the mental state of some men these days because they have been beaten down by the media and made fun of in TV shows for years now feminists are jumping in and blaming all the ills in the world on men.
I personally am offended the way some women act in public and their husbands and BFs won't say anything.

There are many unattractive women out there and these days it is better to blend in like them.

If you have it then by all means use it to your advantage.

I think you’re over thinking.

My opinion is that we’ve enough issues as CD’s without creating new ones ourselves.

Michelle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

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:yt:

I looked at your profile page Monica but without a picture of you en femme it is hard to see where your thoughts may apply to you specifically. There are, however, a LOT of people on this forum that are autogynephilic (and a small few who actually admit it) and I am sure there is dressing for the purpose of sexual gratification by creating the most willing object of female sexual desire available to them, and if that isn't objectification then I don't know what is. Is it wrong though? Probably not. It is only wrong when you treat an unwilling third party female as an object of sexual pleasure and nothing more. We are all driven by sexual desires after-all, even women.

Hell-o Monica,
I totally get what you’re asking, and have thoughts along the same vine.
My only interruption to anything along those thoughts is...would a 7 year old care?
Much Love,
Kristyn

This is an important topic. One GG gave a heartfelt critique of what she saw as CDs promoting objectification. See
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...sharing-thread posts 207,210

However, it is also a broad term that includes all ways people minimize the humanity of others in favor of a utilitarian or symbolic objectification. We do it anytime we regard someone as a robot doing a job [enemy solider, custodial employee, *****, police, ...the list goes on].

Objectification hurts, obviously. Women have been culturally assigned second class status [look pretty but leave the real work to us men], which becomes objectification when they find men catcalling as they walk by or ignoring them in business meetings, or dating then for sex, etc.

The risk of objectification makes some women dress down, so not to lead with their female sex characteristics. The audience for Victoria's secret fashion show is half of what it was a few years ago:
https://theglowup.theroot.com/the-20...car-1830881888

The argument is undoubtedly being made by feminist minded purists that any heel is a nod to sexual exploitation. But the growing objection to objectification doesn't stop a lot of women from trying to enjoy dressing in ways that enhance their femaleness, but signal that the communication is not sexual, but gender,and not inviting predation.

I dress, as women do, for myself, with the goal of enjoying the feel and the look of my clothing, without causing chaos or threat around me. I am not dating, so attraction is not part of my message. [And in my case the universe of people attracted to a mirl is very tiny!- but I yam what I yam] I am not vulnerable, so I see objectifying actions by others for what they are. I

MHO, transformation CDs presenting the look of a female are doing exactly what other women who look that way are doing, and therefore not supporting objectification, unless taking the extra steps needed to trying to look like a sex object!

Men have a similar prescribed dress code, and most men don't go around with open shirt fronts and glistening tan chests. Sexually interesting clothing is one hook, but everyone knows that when you catch a woman [or man] you have to start paying attention to their real needs if you want the relationship to continue.

OK,

First forget about all this blending nonsense.

Find a style that works for you.

For this forget what guys and most on this site, think. You are looking for approval from women. It is impossible to please them all. There isn’t one look, dress, etc... Your target is going to be the ones you want to be friends with.

I live as a TG person. My friends mostly GG’s. They accept me as one of them.

I have created this new life I live as Jean. It’s gotten to the point that it has a life of its own, if that makes any since?
Like if I try and ignore it, it hunts me down. Like a boyfriend that left a message on the answering machine at work a week ago asking JEAN to return his call. It was no big deal, yes I called him and we got together. Or like my best friend who lives thirty minutes way, storming into my house demanding to know where Jean is and is she OK. Yes when my roommate told me I called her. Today is her birthday, we have a big night planned with her boyfriend driving, so we can party. One thing I can tell you is I will not be blending in. I have this dress I just finished. Even thou I know the reaction will be” WOW”, it is what they all expect from me.

I did all this without knowing what I was doing, with a little schooling along the way by my friends.

Kristyn, really, what 7 year old?

It depends on the kid and your relationship to them.

For the most part kids don’t care because I’m in that group call old people.

Now there are few exceptions, like my friends kids. But they know me, and when they see me they want to share things in their world. To see the world through the eyes of a six year old, priceless.

Phili, I live as a TG person, and this is how I describe myself to the public. I would never insult my friends by declaring I’m living as a women. Not even when I was living as the lady of the house with my boyfriend, a male roommate and his six year old daughter. This lasted for a year before I through it all away, a long story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

I really worry about the mental state of some men these days because they have been beaten down by the media and made fun of in TV shows for years now feminists are jumping in and blaming all the ills in the world on men.
I personally am offended the way some women act in public and their husbands and BFs won't say anything.

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I know exactly what you're saying. And there's an interesting mis-associated conspiracy theory that all males are being forced femmed by the media.

:straightface:

Can they really do that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

It’s a fair question.

One might, for example, dress for the purpose of personal sexual fulfillment. I suppose that is objectification, but arguably self objectification, which is certainly better than treating women as objects of gratification.

follow up...desiring someone, sexually, is not wrong. Reducing someone to an object for personal gratification is not so acceptable.

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I was going to say something similar, Kim, but you've stated it succinctly and clearly. I get that it's easy to conflate the two, but for the cross dresser, the objectification is personal and has little to do with his view of women. That view may be healthy and respectful, or it may be dim and dismissive. CD'ing has nothing to do with that.

Interesting that you should mention "the male gaze", Monica. I have been guilty of that for my entire life, but it has become clear to me that, for me, the driver was not libido, but rather, envy. It's temptingly easy to call that objectification, but it is something else completely, because it also invokes the awareness of what I lack. The "gaze" is not focused on something I want, sexually or physically. It is more on what I am yet not. Yes, I'm TS and it's a different perspective than that of a CD, but I thought that the notion might be worth considering.

Only if they themselves let society do that to them.
Its a natural thing both sexes do and have done as long as they have been on this planet.
Personally if guys want to be that way its fine with me. I personally don't find emasculated men attractive.
Regular guys I do find attractive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlaWestin

I know exactly what you're saying. And there's an interesting mis-associated conspiracy theory that all males are being forced femmed by the media.

:straightface:

Can they really do that?

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I don't think that it's just the media and forced femme isn't the way that I'd put it, but I do think it's evident that there is a fairly, if not large vocal, movement saying that masculinity in its traditional sense is toxic and that it is the cause of society's ills. For instance, the phrase "we don't need to hear from more straight men" is one that's not uncommon in the national conversation. While this isn't a line of thought that is designed to feminize men, it is designed to shame them (it's not logically valid either). I'm a man's man about 90% of the time (the other 10% i'm in panties, makeup, & women's clothes :heehee:), so folks in the anti-man persuasion do irritate me, primarily because they (and a lot of men) fundamentally misunderstand what masculinity, in its ideal state should be (if they did, they wouldn't try to shame it), and secondarily because I don't find attempts to divide ppl by sex or any other immutable characteristic particularly helpfully in building a cohesive society. Generally, men need women and women need men and men and women have struggled against hardship together throughout all of human history. At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong w/ men having masculine characteristics, there's nothing wrong w/ women having feminine characteristics, and I (like I imagine most here) would like to see a cease to the escalating man vs woman conflict that some prominent media and political figures keep trying to promote.

II don't know were I stand on this subject. When I am Drab I want to be seen as a 'normal man'. When I am me I want to be seen as me. If me is perceived as a female all the better. If seen as a MIAD that is fine but then I need to work much more on my presentation. I want to blend. Sexual encounters are not my objective, period.

I don't like the phrase toxic masculinity because women can be extremely toxic as well.
I was married to two extremely toxic women so I do have first hand experience with them.
I have a real repulsion of current buzz words.

Out at works do last night I was admiring my female workmates and how good they looked,and how gorgeous their outfits were,but I wouldn't say I was objectifying them,not in my mind anyway I was up dancing with them all night but just as workmates and friends,we can admire women,their looks,personality etc there really is nothing wrong with that.

P.S. My view of women,a cpl of them at least,was altered by the end of this same night,as they got involved in a hair pulling,down on the ground,punches thrown cat fight,I would objectify them at my peril

Sophie

Its guys that have been beaten down socially/emasculated by feminism that feel like they are objectifying women.
They really aren't objectifying they are really just admiring but they now think somehow that is wrong.
I say admire away and be a man about it and own it if thats what you want to do.
Most women would like a guy to admire them and not sit in the corner scared to speak up if you like how a woman looks.
Most women I know like a man that acts like a man not a wuss even if that man likes to CD every now and then.
I asked a few women I know really well and said how do you feel about being objectified?
One said it depends on what was said, the next said yes please i love feeling like a woman that guys like/lust after.
The other one said she never really thought about it yet she didn't care for cat calling.

My point is its a very natural thing all humans do it maybe some more than others and to different degrees.
Lets not try to legislate human nature.

Since I've been a member here, a bit over a year, and nearly 500 posts, one of the things that has really stunned me, is the lack of understanding and the lack of empathy that many people on this board seem to have with women. I suppose that this thread throws some of the reasons why into focus, in that men, yes, men in general, so yes, a bit of a generalisation, but certainly enough men to make it an indentifiable trend, do objectify women, and that many on this board, seem to dress, in order to achieve the perfect look that they seek in both the best woman that they can be, but also that then logically extends to their view of women in general. However much the women haters on this board, and sadly ther do seem to be some that pop up, jump up and down and stamp their little foot, there is a real world out there that real women have to live in, and it's not a world of their making.

I'm objectified by male and female as I'm Pan, Is it cool? XXXX No!

Being Objectified as a beautiful entity is precious!

Stacy!

I’ve been concerned about this, too, Monica. I don’t want to judge or reduce any human but have wondered about my CD preference for exaggerated female clothes - lace, sexy lingerie, etc representing an underlying chauvinism. But then in real life, working with lots of women, I don’t see myself acting or thinking that way at all. It’s as if I have a hypothetical female image that I want to look like, and then another real,world image of women as people. Hope I’m not fooling myself.

I feel that I dress for myself, but I also ask myself why, if I dress completely for myself, did I feel compelled to start going out?

So I can't completely deny there is a need for the representation of how I feel on the inside to be seen by others outside. However it is for myself in the sense that I don't expect women to wear what I do ( nor other men, although I would welcome it from other men for the sake of the movement ).

I do not expect women to look a particular way, lest they expect me to look like a model man. But if I see a woman wearing clothing that I like ( presumably of her own choosing ), I do wish I had the freedom to wear the same clothing as functionally as she does.

I don't have expectations of how other CDers dress other than whatever makes them happy - blend, not blend, whatever. We interact on this board because the society doesn't embrace what we do to make ourselves happy. So it's better that we don't do it to others - especially not in house.

I might get judged on appearance; I've been judged on appearance my entire life. If I wear a miniskirt on one day, and slacks the next day, which one gets used to judge me? Most likely the one that's most convenient to make their argument.

- Lydianne.

How I think about some women (not all) is based on their personality not their gender.
There are some women I adore to be around because they are good people.
We can go out as a group and have a wonderful time.
Its their actions and respect for human dignity that make them fun to be around.
We love each other as friends and I would do anything to help them in a time of need because they deserve to be treated with honor and dignity.
Same goes for true male friends as well.
So I am not some hateful a hole that hates ALL women. Treat me with respect and I will treat you the same way.

Lydianne I wish there was a like button to push for you last post amen!

Philli, I am seeing so many women dress down now, and i think many American women do not want men watching them. I almost never see a dress or skirt in the town i live in, I do see dresses on Amish or Mennonite women here,but a skirt or dress is extremely rare here, in small town midwest. But, this is most everywhere in the USA now. I watch old television shows, and see very few women in pants. SIGH... those days are long gone. I must say, that i am no longer looking to date nor meet women, anymore. I have given up, and quit now. at age 64. Women don't want nor need men nor RESPECT men anymore. And I can understand some of it, because of porn making women as only sex objects.. I do not dress that often anymore, but have had ads on Adultdriendfinder.com, as Alice, and got only replies from men wanting penetration sex, which i will not do. So, i can understand why many women are afraid of attracting unwanted male attention and advances. HOWEVER, the feminist movement has tarred and feathered ALL MEN, as predators. VERY BAD. Like DRS, I am into Alice, and autogynephillia . I do not see any middle age or senior attractive single women in my area. Alice is my lady.

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I agree Tracii, that being male has been terribly devalued in western society. Far more men are depressed now, than ever before. Suicide is way up in men now! When being male is considered not needed, predatory, toxic, then many boys and men will become DISENFRANCHISED, LONESOME, ANGRY, and do violent things sometimes and end their misery and depression, with alcohol, drugs, violence, and suicide. Modern society has become a hazardous place emotionally and mentally for males. If women no longer want or need men, society will crumble and die from within. I have some women friends, and love them as sisters, even if they are obese, or unattractive to me personally. The person within, whether male or female, or TG. But, cannot deny, that i am only attracted to very few women now. I am sick of a lifetime of feeling guilt and shame for being attracted to some women. My sister even hates men. Alice is the EVE, and my male side is Adam.

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Yes, Tracii, in modern America, there is a super pandemic tidal wave of toxic femininity, that is not being addressed. it is not just men who have problems. I wish we could all just humbly admit it. and the toxic media would be honest.

I hate to see men and boys being emasculated for the sense of being PC.
Let men be men and women be women let them be who they are.
Let trans or gay people be who they are, there is room for everyone but there is one segment that just will not allow that and wants the rest of the world to be as uptight and angry as they are.
I don't wish to be a part of that segment of society.

Monica,
We have varied reasons for presenting female whatever the level . My aim now I'm full time is to integrate , forget the passing question .

Being obsessed with the female form is a natural instinct , basically being sexual but that's where it becomes confusing for a CDer because we also have a need to appear female , the question is who do we want to obsess over us ?

Daisy,
AGP has always raised a heated debate , it's not my intention but I believe it's part of what makes me tick but it's not all to do with sexual gratification , it's a far wider spread of emotions .

Sadly this seems to have turned into one of those threads which has lost its way. This happens from time to time on any forum where conflicting rights rub up against each other. But when I look at the world that the young people are creating for themselves, that gives me hope. Me and my generation will soon depart the stage and with us those views forged in a different time, will simply fade, pass and be forgotten.

What a lovely, sweet group of girls on this forum! I feel so much better now, after reading all of these thoughts! I, Roxanne, hope that one day there will be more room in this old world for me! A world where I can wake up, put on my make-up, pretty dress, and heels, and go walking outside, free from any frights or worries except who might want to flirt with me! One day, maybe not in my time, but one day, this may really be out there! Oh, this girl really hopes so!
Roxanne "She Lives"

I am a woman and I dress and act the way I want at any particular time. I don't admire women or men and I certainly don't gaze at them. They go about their lives as I do mine. The way I look and dress is only done for me and not to compliment or objectify others. Anyway, there aren't many goth women out there anymore for me to be labeled as objectifying them.

I know the OP is asking a decent question and it makes for good conversation. But if we allow every little rule or conflict to come into our lives then we might as well become clones of each other and not risk upsetting anyone.

The OP does present a valid question. Men look at women. Women look at men. And, now it is also acceptable for men to look at men and women to look at women. There is still in everyone's dna a gene that tells everyone to procreate. For whatever reason people objectify different male and female forms. Got a large booty? There's a guy for you. Got a big bust? There's a guy for you.

So, if I as a man want to dress as a woman, then some sort of individual expression has to be involved. No? We've come a long way since Adam and Eve were limited to one type of fig leaf to cover up their genitalia.

Addressing the OP, I don't think anyone here is going out actively objectifying women by their choice of clothing, and it's right that anyone can make their own choices, within reason.

However, perhaps there is a danger that in presenting in a way that women, in increasing numbers, are choosing not to dress in everyday situaions we do them a disservice. Much of women's attire over the centuries, and in different cultures, has been dictated to either directly by men, or as a way of keeping women in their place in society. There are many examples, from corsets to foot binding. It's natural that women would see progress in being able to dress as they want without being judged. As a woman I might well look at an overly feminised CD and think that not only are they are behind the times but also making it harder for this progress to be accepted.

As a CD I choose to dress in a way which would be unremarkable for a women to be seen out and about in. I don't do this with any thought as to who I might or might not offend. It's just how I feel happiest when I check in the mirror, but I think I would feel uncomfortable wearing anything too overtly feminine. Maybe for a night out, but not for a trip to Sainsburys. Again, that's me, not a judgement on anyone else.

What surprises me is how a thread concerned with how our behaviour might affect women has been turned into an unnecessarily vociferous attack on women trying to progress their own position in society, as they have had to do for centuries. There will always be some extreme elements in any movement but they don't represent the majority and shouldn't be hauled out to defame feminism at any opportunity. If men are suffering in today's world, it's not women's fault. There are plenty of other things going on that we should be taking a closer look at.

Its an interesting topic and discussion. If you look at the dictionary definition of objectify it has two forms, one is negative it degrades someone as a sexual object... which I cant really see how a person dressing like a woman is doing this, even if they are striving to be that perfect woman. The second definition is expressing something abstract in a concrete form.. so perhaps some people are doing this, but if so whats wrong with that second definition?

Good point but I can't see where CDing is in any way shape or form objectifying women.
I will say people who seem to think that way may have other issues like thinking CDing is bad and all CDers are evil spawns of satan.

Tracii, if its turning an abstract form ie I wish I was a girl (if even for half an hour) into a concrete form of I am dressed like one, that fits the 'good definition' maybe?

My wife is very pro cross dressing, but she is also somewhat scathing of those who dress in a manner which clearly does objecify a women in a negative sense. Extreme heels, a common liking on these boards would be a case in point. I'm quite happy to take a view that we should pay respect to that manner of thinking. If we can remove this negative attitiude towards our dressing and our reasons for dressing then I'm sure that more of us would find approval easier from not only our nearest and dearest but also society as a whole.

Furhter, I would not seek approval from my wife of what I choose to wear but I wouldn't choose to wear something of which she disapproves and logically why would I?

I also have to agree with Rachel that it's a shame when threads like this come around there are those who seem to subscribe to the "those who shout loudest get heard" school of thought.

Finally, perhaps we should bear in mind that offence is in the ear of the hearer, not the mouth of the speaker.

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Originally Posted by Charlotte7

My wife is very pro cross dressing, but she is also somewhat scathing of those who dress in a manner which clearly does objecify a women in a negative sense. Extreme heels, a common liking on these boards would be a case in point. I'm quite happy to take a view that we should pay respect to that manner of thinking. If we can remove this negative attitiude towards our dressing and our reasons for dressing then I'm sure that more of us would find approval easier from not only our nearest and dearest but also society as a whole.

Furhter, I would not seek approval from my wife of what I choose to wear but I wouldn't choose to wear something of which she disapproves and logically why would I?

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Coudn't agree with those points more Charlotte. My wife is the same. On the days when I feel the need to be seen wholely as a woman and not androgenous I try to dress down to as casual and comfortable as I can, as any other woman might. My wife, on the otherhand, will often insist on further feminisation because she has confidence in my appearance and wants us both to look good (and therefore feel good about ourselves) as we go about our day together. She is fed up of the 'couldn't care less about my appearance' approach of society as a whole these days. BUT this additional feminisation that she likes for me (and her) is not in any way sexualising the image. It's a skirt instead of jeans, bigger earings, maybe a flowery scarf, that sort of thing, it's never high heels, short skirts, large boobs, bright red lippy and that sort of thing. I love my wife so much :)

Lydianne made a valuable point about observers choosing to respond to what fits their need to push back against something they don't feel comfortable with. Dressing is messaging, so bearing in mind Charlotte's wisdom - "offence is in the ear of the hearer, not the mouth of the speaker." what are we to do?

GGs have the same problem day in an day out,. as do men, as has been pointed out. Everyone is looking at everyone, interpreting the messages of their looks and overt actions, and reacting with negative, neutral, or positive judgement.

"Live and let live" gives each of us all the space we need in a cooperative world. A drag queen/MIAD/ blending CD who 'no one notices' [well, they do though, of course] are all making useful statements, most of which are missed by observers!

You are talking about Human Nature 101. Birds and Bees stuff and nothing more. Men do not "choose" to be "turned on" by a woman's level of attractiveness. It's programming and nothing more. Females DO CHOOSE how much effort they are willing to put in/go through to be more attractive to more men through the use of makeup, wigs, hairstyle/s, shapewear, form fitting clothes, nails, and most likely, the "perfect" bra that will show her "girls" to best advantage.

Now, I could be wrong, but I just don't see many employers REQUIRING women to do all that. Women can choose or not choose just how much effort/time/expense they wish to put in to being "more attractive".

Men could CHOOSE to put in way more time and effort on their own appearance. Few will because the payback for men is vastly different than for women. A man is more likely to receive "more attention" from more women if he is sporting a Rolex and driving a fancy car. Simple Reality.

None of this is changing anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Rachelish

Addressing the OP, I don't think anyone here is going out actively objectifying women by their choice of clothing, and it's right that anyone can make their own choices, within reason.

However, perhaps there is a danger that in presenting in a way that women, in increasing numbers, are choosing not to dress in everyday situaions we do them a disservice. Much of women's attire over the centuries, and in different cultures, has been dictated to either directly by men, or as a way of keeping women in their place in society. There are many examples, from corsets to foot binding. It's natural that women would see progress in being able to dress as they want without being judged. As a woman I might well look at an overly feminised CD and think that not only are they are behind the times but also making it harder for this progress to be accepted.

As a CD I choose to dress in a way which would be unremarkable for a women to be seen out and about in. I don't do this with any thought as to who I might or might not offend. It's just how I feel happiest when I check in the mirror, but I think I would feel uncomfortable wearing anything too overtly feminine. Maybe for a night out, but not for a trip to Sainsburys. Again, that's me, not a judgement on anyone else.

What surprises me is how a thread concerned with how our behaviour might affect women has been turned into an unnecessarily vociferous attack on women trying to progress their own position in society, as they have had to do for centuries. There will always be some extreme elements in any movement but they don't represent the majority and shouldn't be hauled out to defame feminism at any opportunity. If men are suffering in today's world, it's not women's fault. There are plenty of other things going on that we should be taking a closer look at.

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^^^Standing Applause :clap2::clap2::clap2: