I Think Therefore I Am

Allright, so I wrote this post yesterday before work and it got modded out of existence. I ran out of time to write and didn't really express my point very well so I understand why, but I want to try again.

I watch alot of youtube videos, way more of the transgender creators then crossdressers. I recently came across a video throwing some hate at crossdressers which bothered me. I'll skip the details and just say that her arguments focused on bad online behavior of CDs, then went on to claim that all CDs even those who weren't pervs were not transgender and were stealing their word. It bothered me and I commented as many others did saying that most CDs did not engage in the kind of behavior she was talking about.

Another transgender youtuber I follow did a series of videos throwing hate towards the entire LGBTQ community mostly because of the beliefs of the most radical parts of the community.

Wouldn't the world be a better place if we didn't let the most extreme and worst stereotypes of a group represent the group?

So this isn't the point, really what this got me thinking about is identity and for lack of a better term the "Gender Community" as a whole. The movement today is that if you feel like a different gender then your biological one, then you are one, and the world has to accept it. It really doesn't matter how you look or act, all that matters is how you feel and the world must accept it and be corrected every time they call you a mam or a sir.

For whatever reason I don't feel like I have this power to bend reality to my will. If I look like a woman, and I act like a woman, and society perceives me as woman then great, if they don't then it's my fault not there's.

So in this anti-CD video I mentioned earlier she calls out all the bad behavior, but when it comes down to it the real problem she has with crossdressers is that crossdressers don't have the right to consider themselves transgender. I am a crossdresser and I also consider myself transgender, I know I'm a man, but I don't feel like one. The definition of the word is clearly established and I would wager that most of us don't feel to manly when we're wearing dresses.

Sarah, Don’t let one person’s radical views upset you. Transsexuals do not own the term transgender. Trans is a continuum, and we all fall somewhere on it or we wouldn’t bother to be on this forum. I spend a fair amount of time on “Susan’s Place,” which is a very welcoming transgender forum for CDs as well as those in the process of or who have completed transition. In my view, anyone who experiences gender dysphoria or crossdressers is somewhere on the wide continuum of transgender. Some however, may not want to think of themselves as transgender — I used to tell myself that I was “just a crossdresser.” Da Nile ain’t just a river in Egypt. Nancy

Sarah,
It's very difficult to speak for and defend everyone , the TG sprectum is very broad , OK some CDers do have their own agenda and may possibly upset other people . On the other side of the coin some people use the ineternet and the social media sites purely to vent hatred and vengeance on others , controlling that aspect is a tough one , I personally choose to stay away from all that garbage .

People in the RW aren't stupid , most know the good and the bad of this apect of the internet , many really don't care about the hurtful way labels are tossed about and abused . If you are comfortable as Sarah in the RW and basically accepted that is more important , what the faceless ones on the media sites think isn't important , all most are playing are mind games , they are sad people really .

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Originally Posted by sarah_hillcrest

The movement today is that if you feel like a different gender then your biological one, then you are one, and the world has to accept it. It really doesn't matter how you look or act, all that matters is how you feel and the world must accept it and be corrected every time they call you a mam or a sir.

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I have a few problems with this movement. If it doesn't matter how someone looks or acts, and they choose to look and act like a man (but they feel like a woman), then people should not be "corrected" for using sir. The world doesn't know how someone feels. They aren't mind readers.

Speaking of the mind and control, forced acceptance is difficult to achieve. We should strive to force tolerance first.

the focus on identity politics, especially the more radical is really quite sad given that we are mostly striving for equality. How can I be affecting a transgender person by dressing in female clothes and wanting to appear as female but not undergoing surgery to physically transition?

This could be an interesting thread.

Consider that most behaviour is learned and not genetic Most social behavior is learned as well. People follow things that interest them on social media . You follow "

way more of the transgender creators then crossdressers" so the input you receive is from transgender rather then crossdressers. So yes if you look for bad social press you will find it.

In this day and age we have "social media influincers" these are people the masses follow and get their positive reinforcement from.

People who go online to bash other are not part of a community, they are lone wolves who have found their affirmation by attacking a community they do not feel part of.



Even this site is a source of positive reinforcement for people. Would you come back here is you did not find value ?

Here’s the problem with being “transgender AND a crossdresser”. The fundamental principle behind the trans rights movement is “trans women are women”. Say it with me! If you really identify as trans, then you are saying you are a woman born incorrect genetics. Basically a physical deformity. If you are a woman, then wearing women’s clothes wouldn’t make you a crossdresser. It’s misunderstandings like this that frustrate the trans community and make them want to separate themselves from the CD community.

Well said Kelly.
I am not one to follow so those so call social media influencers don't influence me.
A lot of them are just people looking for attention IMO.

I can't read minds. If someone is wearing a skirt or wearing a top that proudly shows of a nice pair of boobs, I'm gonna assume they are female.

Personally, my outward appearance is confusing, so as long as people are trying to show some respect, I'm OK with that.

Remember that "transgender" is/was always a political construct. Activist types wanted to gather as many disparate groups under the "transgender umbrella" as possible to make their movement look as large as possible. Sort of like how a threatened cat puffs up it's fur and arches it's back to look bigger than it really is. Some groups under this umbrella have made great strides towards social acceptance in the last couple of decades (good on them!) so now it's time to throw the "perverts" under the bus because we are more hindrance than help to them these days. So what! I dropped out of the "transgender movement" a long time ago. If they don't consider me as one of them, then we are all in agreement - at last. I don't even "identify" as a crossdresser, crossdressing is just something I do. If anything, I'm more of a sexual non-conformist than a gender non-conformist. It's just that my "perversion" involves a certain amount of gender play. Hate all you want but you can't touch me, I'm not hurting anybody so I don't care.

LilSissyStevie;

Not so much a political construct. I'm fairly certain the term transgender has been around since the 1940's . It was then used by a psychiatrist (something) Oliven as a medical term to differentiate
the difference between transvestism (a sexual fetish about clothing) and identity( which later became gender identity).Our community is probably the most
self-analytical group in existence. For a group that hates and talks down about labels we sure like to argue,discuss,crab about them then wrestle thm down
and change the heck out of them LOL

I believe we all exist on a gender spectrum and in that spectrum I believe there is a CD-TG sub-spectrum. I know most CD's say they are are not TG but honestly if you weren't a little TG then you probably would never have thought about CDing in the first place. In my case if you asked me a few years ago (you can probably even dredge up posts here saying so) I would have adamantly said I was CD not TG, but as I have said many times in the past year I was lying to myself most of all.

I have learned to pick my battles, I guess that's something that comes with age and raising children. It's too easy to waste energy jumping on every innocent mistake and concentrating on the negative but then you fall victim to being the victim all the time. That is not to say if someone is being malicious I wont get upset with them, but I am not the type of person to cause a scene just to cause a scene.

LilSissyStevie, the trans community is the first to be thrown under the bus, left to fight for ourselves, and generally ignored by many in the Lesbian/Gay community. Are TG doing the same to CD? Possibly, as there has always been a rift between CD and TG/TS. So much so and for so long that even this board has to keep us separated. I remember when the board only had M-F CD and F-M CD sections, but we all couldn't get along.

I am a crossdresser and I also consider myself transgender, I know I'm a man, but I don't feel like one. - Sarah_hillcrest


If you identify as a transgender woman (transwoman, or just plain woman), then how do you identify as a crossdresser as well? That confuses me. I'm not disputing your claim, but the two are connected but separate. At least in my mind

From my time on these boards, I've discerned that there are three major divisions here.

1 - there are fetishists, defined as individuals who focus on certain garments and/or fabrics.

2 - there are crossdressers, defined as those who dress in the clothing of the opposite gender to which they were born and identify with.

3 - there are transpeople (men & women), defined as those who genuinely feel they were born with the incorrect body to match their gender.

I am NOT, repeat, NOT negging, dismissing, or denigrating ANY one on these forums with this classification. I am merely making an observation, so don't tar & feather me, OK?


There is some overlap between the 3 groups, and language and perceptions can blur the lines further. And if there is confusion about who is what on these boards, imagine the poor muggles trying to figure it all out!

It ain't as simple as it once was: "he" is a boy, "she" is a girl, doesn't quite fit anymore.



But the thing that really worries me, is not being mis-gendered. It's the intolerance that everyone feels entitled to, simply because someone disagrees with us.

What I mean is, the OP is annoyed because there are people in the world who don't embrace them with loving arms.

Guess what? The human race is competitive, by nature. "I'm faster than you", "I'm stronger than you", "I'm richer, more successful, prettier, than you".

And, sadly, that carries over into the trans world as well. "You're not as trans as I am."

This video says it better: 'The Hardest thing in the World' TEDx talk by CiCi

https://youtu.be/fw30yjccnD4

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Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

Here’s the problem with being “transgender AND a crossdresser”. The fundamental principle behind the trans rights movement is “trans women are women”. Say it with me! If you really identify as trans, then you are saying you are a woman born incorrect genetics. Basically a physical deformity. If you are a woman, then wearing women’s clothes wouldn’t make you a crossdresser. It’s misunderstandings like this that frustrate the trans community and make them want to separate themselves from the CD community.

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I beg to differ, Micki. I think that you are confusing transgender with transsexual. Gender dysphoria, discomfort with one’s biological gender and a wish to be the opposite gender, is experienced by MANY individuals (including me) who do not, in fact, see themselves as women or believe they were “born in the wrong body.” That is only one of many psychological constructs. You are, unfortunately, promoting an untrue stereotype.

As I (and others on this thread) have noted transgender encompasses a wide continuum from the occasional crossdresser on one end of the spectrum to the post-op transsexual on the other end. We are all transgender and we all have a stake in discriminatory practices towards the T in LBGT (even if we are in the closet). Nancy

Thanks for all the interesting feedback. I just want to make it clear this isn't a rant, I'm not upset, I'm just interested in honest discussion.

The reason I watch way more transgender stuff is that there simply is way more of it. Most CD youtube stuff is lame and fetish related. There are a few good ones like danam, and Noah Storms, but most are just like, "I'm going to dress up and walk around the house." The transgender youtube creators actually talk about stuff.

I totally get why someone would say you can't be a crossdresser and a transperson. If you really were trans you wouldn't feel like you were wearing the opposite's gender clothes.

But I'm also a big believer of the whole idea of a gender spectrum and that crossdressers fall on that.

Like I tried to convey in my post, if I'm "dressed" I don't really feel like I'm crossdressed, I just feel like I'm more in line with myself, but I also don't feel like I can just claim that I am a woman because I feel like one sometimes.

DocRobbySherry, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not sure how you got that from my original post, are you sure you read it correctly?

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Originally Posted by Jodie_Lynn

I am a crossdresser and I also consider myself transgender, I know I'm a man, but I don't feel like one. - Sarah_hillcrest


3 - there are transpeople (men & women), defined as those who genuinely feel they were born with the incorrect body to match their gender.

https://youtu.be/fw30yjccnD4

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Jodie, I realize that you are trying to summarize for the sake of brevity, but this is a wholly inadequate definition of transgender. Gender dysphoria is a complicated phenomena. All trans people do not describe this wish or feeling that they were “born in the wrong body.” Sometimes dysphoris is associated with gender roles, certain body parts, particular gender expectations, etc. — not all mtf transgender individuals experience the sense of “I was born in the wrong body” (I believe it is actually about 60%, but I can’t come up with the source reference for that off the top of my head).

My own coming to terms with being transgender has been an evolution of understanding myself — why certain gender expectations never felt “right,” why I’ve always been attracted to women’s clothes, why I chose a profession then populated by 80% women, why I always wanted to be around the girls and didn’t like roughhousing with the boys. My gender dysphoria had little to do with body dysphoria until my later years. NOW I have genital dysphoria, but I did not early on. I’m just encouraging you to broaden your definition of transgender. Nancy

Every morning I wake up I do not feel in anyway male.I am transgender.
My clothes I wear everyday were purchased in the ladies part of the store and they help to make me feel right or normal.
I don't think like a male about most things but I do understand why they think that way.
CDers are OK I don't have a problem with them generally speaking its the creepy bunch that ruin it for the good ones.

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Originally Posted by sarah_hillcrest

Thanks for all the interesting feedback. I just want to make it clear this isn't a rant, I'm not upset, I'm just interested in honest discussion.

The reason I watch way more transgender stuff is that there simply is way more of it. Most CD youtube stuff is lame and fetish related. There are a few good ones like danam, and Noah Storms, but most are just like, "I'm going to dress up and walk around the house." The transgender youtube creators actually talk about stuff.

I totally get why someone would say you can't be a crossdresser and a transperson. If you really were trans you wouldn't feel like you were wearing the opposite's gender clothes.

But I'm also a big believer of the whole idea of a gender spectrum and that crossdressers fall on that.

Like I tried to convey in my post, if I'm "dressed" I don't really feel like I'm crossdressed, I just feel like I'm more in line with myself, but I also don't feel like I can just claim that I am a woman because I feel like one sometimes.

DocRobbySherry, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not sure how you got that from my original post, are you sure you read it correctly?

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Yes, Sarah I'm afraid I confused your references to, "I", when u meant others and not u. I believe if u had used the words, "you", or, "they", I would have understood on my first read. My error, sorry! My post is going away!:straightface:

The movement today is that if you feel like a different gender then your biological one, then you are one, and the world has to accept it. It really doesn't matter how you look or act, all that matters is how you feel and the world must accept it and be corrected every time they call you a mam or a sir. - Sarah_hillcrest

I see this as a problem. I see this problem both here on the boards and in real life. NO ONE "has to accept" anything that another person does or says. You cannot force people to like you (general pronoun), your appearance, your opinions, or how you perceive yourself. As long as people are treated fairly, that is the best we can hope for.

But people seem to think that they "must" be accepted by everyone, and that just isn't so. A private business doesn't want to cater a same-sex wedding? It's a private business, they can and do have the right to refuse service. It is no different than a Jewish bakery refusing to make a cake celebrating Hitler's birthday for an Aryan group, but I don't think too many people would criticize the bakery for THAT, would they? A store clerk insists on calling you "Sir" because they believe there are only 2 genders, deal with it. It is disheartening, but it is reality that not everyone thinks the same way. Personally, I want to know the places that aren't LGBT+ friendly, I'll spare them my presence AND my money.

(MODS, please do not censor the above, it is for purposes of illustration, and is NOT politically motivated)

There is a strong tendency to support "our tribe", simply because they ARE part of our tribe. We tend to overlook inappropriate behavior by our own, because we feel we have to present a united front to the world. But what if 'one of ours' commits an egregious act that reflects badly on the community as a whole? Do we sit quiet? Disavow the offender? Stand up and say "this is wrong"?

Recently on these boards, someone posted a story of something they did, which I thought was inappropriate, for ANYONE to engage in. I was not surprised when the majority of respondents indicated acceptance and even approval of the posters act, while roasting those few who had "less than positive" things to say.

And while I understand the thought process of some transpeople who look down on "mere" crossdressers, I do not agree with it. However, I believe it was Voltaire who said:

"I may not agree with a word you said, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it"

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Originally Posted by NancyJ

Jodie, I realize that you are trying to summarize for the sake of brevity, but this is a wholly inadequate definition of transgender. Gender dysphoria is a complicated phenomena. All trans people do not describe this wish or feeling that they were “born in the wrong body.” Sometimes dysphoris is associated with gender roles, certain body parts, particular gender expectations, etc. — not all mtf transgender individuals experience the sense of “I was born in the wrong body” (I believe it is actually about 60%, but I can’t come up with the source reference for that off the top of my head).

My own coming to terms with being transgender has been an evolution of understanding myself — why certain gender expectations never felt “right,” why I’ve always been attracted to women’s clothes, why I chose a profession then populated by 80% women, why I always wanted to be around the girls and didn’t like roughhousing with the boys. My gender dysphoria had little to do with body dysphoria until my later years. NOW I have genital dysphoria, but I did not early on. I’m just encouraging you to broaden your definition of transgender. Nancy

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As you aptly pointed out, I used a "shorthand" definition. However, the phrase "incorrect body to match their gender" fits all the points you mentioned in this statement:

Sometimes dysphoris is associated with gender roles, certain body parts, particular gender expectations, etc. .

If one is not comfortable with the role, the expectations, and the body parts that your birth gender is expected to fit (by society), is that not "the wrong body"?

docrobsherry, sorry I went back and read my post and I accidentally left out a couple key identifiers so now i completely understand. :)

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Jodie, I feel very similarly. I never understood why a private business would be forced to bake a cake for someone they didn't want to. I had the gay cake discussion with a friend and they've replied. "What if their religion didn't recognize people of color, could they just refuse to make cakes for them?" Of course that's obvious discrimination. In the case of the Hitler Cake, I would think that any bakery would have the right to refuse based on the content of the cake. But a wedding cake is a wedding cake so refusing to bake a wedding cake for gay people is discrimination.

Jodie, I really do not want to get into an extended argument about this (or anything else, actually), I would simply encourage you to google the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. I think you will find that it is not exclusive to a “sense of being born in the wrong body.” The condition is much broader than that — IMO, those who are gender dysphoric are trans, AND crossdressers who dress for pleasure only and do not experience gender dysphoria are on the far end of the transgender continuum. But, my primary point is encouraging a broader view of what encompasses transgender. We’re in this together (we all wear panties :-)). Nancy

Can't one be transgender without being involved in the trans rights movement? Transgender is simply an adjective (descriptive word). The word per se isn't political.

I'm not letting someone else's hatred affect my thoughts and feelings. It's their problem.

Sarah,


I watch alot of youtube videos, way more of the transgender creators then crossdressers. I recently came across a video throwing some hate at crossdressers which bothered me. I'll skip the details and just say that her arguments focused on bad online behavior of CDs, then went on to claim that all CDs even those who weren't pervs were not transgender and were stealing their word. It bothered me and I commented as many others did saying that most CDs did not engage in the kind of behavior she was talking about.



I know we don't engage in criticism of the behavior of other members but I too have see YouTube vids of folks who to me seem to be more at the fetish end of the spectrum, outside in public wearing only corsets, stocking and heels, but having crossdresser in the title of the video. This seems to me to be more about exhibitionism than actual CD'ing but as your post describes, their behavior is used by some as a stick to beat the whole community with. As you rightly say, it's not representative of the vast majority of the community.

[QUOTE=NancyJ;--------------------------------------------We’re in this together (we all wear panties :-)). Nancy[/QUOTE]

U T fetishists r all the same! U think it's all about u. But, not everyone that dresses is a pantie fancier, Nancy!:heehee:

In

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

U T fetishists r all the same! U think it's all about. But, not everyone that dresses is a pantie fancier, Nancy!:heehee:

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I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Is this an attempt to be funny, or an attempt at a put-down? In either case, poor taste! I have nothing against fetishes as I am a believer in sexual freedom, but just to clarify, for me, wearing feminine underwear is not a fetish or sexually arousing, it is gender-confirming. Nancy

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Originally Posted by Ressie

Can't one be transgender without being involved in the trans rights movement? Transgender is simply an adjective (descriptive word). The word per se isn't political.

I'm not letting someone else's hatred affect my thoughts and feelings. It's their problem.

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Of course one can be and stay away from trans-rights issues. Although I think we have stretched the definition of transgender a bit too far.

I'm not judging anyone, but if a person only wears panties (or stockings, or any other garment) under their guy clothes, has no desire to either emulate or be a woman, feels 100% comfortable with being a guy, and proceeds no further in crossdressing, would they be as concerned with trans-rights as someone who is living 24/7?

If you've (general pronoun) ever been out in public, and had concerns about which bathroom you should use, and the reaction you're going to get, then you need to be concerned about trans-rights. I mean, after all, aren't "Men's Room" and "Women's Room" simply adjectives too?

I tried formulating a comment the other day. My mind ran into a road block. There are too many descriptive words whirling around this issue of gender identity. It always seems society requires everyone to self identify into a certain box. Of course, when a person self identifies into that box there is always someone who will take exception. If and when a discussion will arise with my desire or need to wear women's clothing I have to tell them the truth as I told my wife; "I do not know why I do what I do!" That is the summation of me and me alone. Before finding this site and long before that I had never heard the term "transgender." I heard terms, vulgarities aside, transvestite and transsexual. Now there is this urge to select a box. On some level it gets ridiculous. Just say what the heck you feel.

I have not watched any of the videos you describe. I suppose when I have a dull day with nothing else to do, I'll drift over to Youtube. The world is full of bad actors. But, what is a bad actor? Someone who does not conform to the rules and regulations of society? Someone who does something illegal, i.e., contrary to law? Or someone who does something you personally would not do? If someone is predisposed to not like someone for who the person is, then that person will seize upon any perceived faux pas and use the broad stroke of a brush to color everyone. I know people who do not like people of color. To validate their beliefs they point out the bank robber or person who assaults a woman was a person of color, and, ignore the fact that person could have been a white person.

I can understand the frustration of any person who is wearing the clothing of the opposite gender of their birth gender when they see a "guy" wearing six inch heels, a short dress, fishnet stocking, a cheap wig and gaudy makeup strutting along on hooker road. In some minds that person becomes the poster child for others as to why they do not like any person of the larger community.

"I do not know why I do what I do!" I recognize I am a male. As such I do not know how a female feels. If you think you feel differently than others, how do arrive at the conclusion you should be assigned to another box on the checklist. Don't back yourself into a corner. Don't conform to another person's limited thinking. Express yourself in sentences and paragraphs!

I hope I made some sense.