WIFEY and NIMBY

My wife doesn't like the idea of her husband crossdressing (late coming out on my part). As she considers herself a tolerant person in gender matters, she wonders if the fact that she dislikes my crossdressing invalidates that.
This is something that I sometimes read in these forums: women are very accepting of crossdressers, until, until (drum roll...) it lands in their backyard with their husband/SO presenting as a woman on occasions. Then here goes tolerance!
Well. Maybe not. We had a very interesting discussion about that with my wife, and starting with this topic of crossdressing and trying to draw analogies with other situations proved more tricky than it first seemed.
The problem:

1. As a woman you say that you are tolerant with crossdressers, you acknowledge their existence and consider that everyone can live their life the way they want.
2. Your husband/SO, present or future, happens to be one of them.
3. You don't accept it (or struggle with it).
4. Ergo, you are not tolerant, please go back and scratch that point 1.

Actually there's a logical flaw in this point 4.

Trying another analogy:

1. As an individual, you have no objection about people eating fish.
2. Ergo you should be eating fish.

Wrong? And yet, the above example is just a condensed version of the previous one .

We tried various other analogies that I will spare you with, but at the end of the discussion we came to the conclusion that my wife was a tolerant person. She doesn't mind people crossdressing. She just doesn't want to be in a relationship with a crossdresser herself, and that is totally her right. Just like I don't like eating fish, but am very tolerant with people who do (except when they microwave it at the office. There should be laws against this).
The flaw in point 4 was to confuse the tolerance for a practice with a personal involvement in the said practice. Like, a heterosexual GG may perfectly be comfortable with lesbian couples without wanting to engage in such a relationship.
In my opinion the NIMBY qualifier doesn't apply to unaccepting or moderately accepting wives that consider themselves tolerant to crossdressers. It would apply only if they said that having a crossdressing husband should not be a problem, before they had a chance of being confronted to the situation in their own couple. Otherwise, they are just being tolerant with other people's' practices without wanting to personally engage in them.
Which I think is a good start to building an accepting society for crossdressers.

I understand your point and I believe many of us have already reached the same conclusion. Those that haven’t are unlikely to be swayed.

I don't care how other people want to live their lives. It's their business.

I do care when the person that I live with and that I thought I knew everything about, throws something unknown such as CDing, GD, or even sexual orientation in the relationship. A spouse is usually chosen based on the complete package with all of the pertinent information about them shared prior to marriage. Everyone has a life story. I would hope that both people, before marriage, knows each other's life story. When the story changes, then the questions start: How much did I really know this person? So, maybe it's a matter of timing. In your case, Diane, do you think your wife would have been ok with your CDing if she had known prior to committing to the marriage? Is it really the "act" of CDing or the secret that was hidden for so long. Only she would know that answer.

So about the NIMBY part. Again, timing and/or the degree of CDing may play a big part in that.

About your fish analogy:

1. I have no objection to people eating fish.
2. I don't like the taste fish.

This has been discussed in great detail on this and other CD forums all across the internet but will you ever get an solid concrete answer ? I doubt it.
Usually the people that claim they are tolerant really aren't.NIMBY proves this in spades.

You can be very tolerant and accepting of a lot of things, but not want to be married to them.

I took me a long time to understand and accept that my wife could have a totally different viewpoint on something and she was no more wrong or right than me. Example; I've always liked shaved legs (and everything else). I mean, who on earth wouldn't prefer shaved to hairy? Clearly, shaved is far superior, right? Wrong, of course. Doesn't mean she won't tolerate it, but if she prefers hairy, that's not wrong. (I still think you ought to be able to shave, BTW). Take makeup for example. Isn't it blatantly obvious that everybody on the planet looks better in makeup? How could it be that someone who is attracted to you wouldn't be even more attracted to you when you enhance your appearance with makeup?

I'm sure in France you're not familiar with the movie Joe Dirt. You kind of need to be from the southern U.S. to appreciate this kind of wisdom, but a quote from the movie addresses the mysteries of life.

"How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does."

There's wisdom in there for both sides of this subject.

Dianne, This is true about so much more than crossdressing. It's OK if someone id Bi, as long as I'm not married to them. It's OK if someone smokes as long as I'm not married to them, etc.....

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Originally Posted by char GG

I do care when the person that I live with and that I thought I knew everything about, throws something unknown such as CDing, GD, or even sexual orientation in the relationship. A spouse is usually chosen based on the complete package with all of the pertinent information about them shared prior to marriage. Everyone has a life story. I would hope that both people, before marriage, knows each other's life story. When the story changes, then the questions start: How much did I really know this person? So, maybe it's a matter of timing. In your case, Diane, do you think your wife would have been ok with your CDing if she had known prior to committing to the marriage? Is it really the "act" of CDing or the secret that was hidden for so long. Only she would know that answer.

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It only makes sense that accepting others people's fancies and having them introduced in your couple can't be put on the same level. I hope that I didn't offend anyone with the "here goes tolerance" bit (I slightly edited that part to avoid ambiguity), it was tongue in cheek :)
I don't think my wife would have been very enthusiastic about CDing before marriage, but we discussed it and as it stands we'll never know. The lack of trust, the lying however seems the bigger problem. She's asking herself the questions you say.
So, you too don't like fish? We should make a club. And put padlocks on microwaves.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

You can be very tolerant and accepting of a lot of things, but not want to be married to them.

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The purpose of my post was to explain why I thought that NIMBY couldn't apply to my wife (and to many other GGs in her situation). I think you just summarized it in one line, so I should quote you in a TLDR; section ;)

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I'm sure in France you're not familiar with the movie Joe Dirt. You kind of need to be from the southern U.S. to appreciate this kind of wisdom, but a quote from the movie addresses the mysteries of life.

"How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does."

There's wisdom in there for both sides of this subject.

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We saw David Spade in Father of the year, but did not see Joe Dirt. From the quote I take it that southern US wisdom is of the practical, down to earth kind. We have an equivalent in an old sketch from the sixties (Fernand Raynaud), where a middle-class, uneducated father gets bombed with complicated questions from his young prodigy son, such as "how do nuclear submarines work in water since they have no diesel or electric engine?" or "why do cows have horns and horses don't?", and the father answers "c'est etudie pour" ("it's been designed for it"). "C'est etudie pour" entered common French language and is a way to humorously evade answering to a complicated question.

I get the reference. My daughter is that way and still not over the shock of me coming out to her over 3 years ago. She is an adult who left home many years ago, has adult children of her own and is divorced. She is true adult by age and experience. We were always very close, and then we were NOT! The sad thing was is that she has never found words to be able to discuss her feelings, angers and frustrations. I have encouraged her so many times that it finally ended in an argument that left us not communicating for over 8 months. We see each other now and she sounds the same as before, but she never reciprocates in calling me to see how I am, or to invite me over, which she always did, or to watch a movie. Maybe someday?? I hope!!??

Diane,
Yours is the typical rationalist macho analysis to excuse a man dressing as a woman but you forget something basic in every human being.

We're made, built of experiences and information from our environment and one of the strongest info are the stereotypes. Nobody is free of them, less the emotional person. Women are emotional, their feelings can change for night to morning so you can't understand them because their can not understand themselves.
It's impossible you can understand this concept because you're applying rational analysis to feeling that most of the time are not rational.

I won't get deeper in this because you will try to rationally analice it and is not possible, just a woman, under the women's hormones can understand what I'm saying.

I'll give you homework to think about it

Devi

An accepting wife is willing to talk about it and set ground rules that are mutually acceptable to the both of you.

Marion

The head and the heart may be only inches apart, but they are light years distant from one another.

My wife is allergic to fish!!!

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Originally Posted by Devi SM

Yours is the typical rationalist macho analysis to excuse a man dressing as a woman but you forget something basic in every human being.

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Devi, I am afraid that you didn't understand my post. Was I that unclear? The purpose of the post is to deny the NIMBY qualifier for wives who consider themselves tolerant to crossdressing but nonetheless struggle with their husband's crossdressing. It explains that you can be tolerant and still struggle with things. Is that macho?

@Devi,
I am happy that you wanted to report macho comments but I totally disagree with you here. As a GG I found your post mysogynist. Your vision of women is outdated. Women are not all emotion and men are not all reason ! (Sorry I don't change my mind during the night more often than any human being) Patriarchy assigned Culture to men to ensure their power and assigned Nature to women (poor ones, they are not able to think by themselves, they are fragile and fickle...) to ensure control of them. In reality, women AND men are under hormones control. By the way do you know that scientists demonstrated that testosterone isn't correlated to violent behavior ?

@Kelly,
Heart, but I shall say Love is the argument used by patriarchal society to manipulate women. In this society, women are traditionally in charge of care, of the well-being of their family, and the name of Love is always used to force them to sacrifice themselves, i.e. don't divorce : you will hurt your children, don't leave your man : endure the behavior of your husband, he has had an affair because men have more sexual needs (wtf !)... With this argument, you only lead women to act to the benefit of the husband and you deny them the right to preserve themselves too.
I am quite sure that when you have an important decision to make you try to be rational and don't let emotions guide your choice.

In this forum I often read severe comments about non accepting or moderately accepting women who claimed to be tolerant. Some jeer and disqualify them with the NIMBY label. Even though I know these kinds of comments came from people feeling hurt, I personally feel offended. I don't just claim I am tolerant, I act for the defense of LGBTQ rights. In my backyard, you can find for example gay friends, some of them are CD (but not in front of me, their choices). In my backyard, as I am an hetero women, I didn't plan to let a CD boyfriend enter but he entered without my knowledge... I didn't choose this situation (and I don't really know what could have been my reaction if he has confessed he was CDing before we committed, but at least I wouldn't feel betrayed) and I struggle with the CDing of hubby. Should I be shamed by NIMBY label and called intolerant ? I don't think so. Many CDs here claim they are tolerant but some don't want to commit with a woman who smokes for example... Making choices for our personal and intimate life doesn't imply we are intolerant if we stand for the right of being different and have the same rights as those who are not labelled as different. Should I be lesbian because if not I am so intolerant, even if I am not attracted to women ?

Technically toleration is something you acknowledge without acceptance.

So she probably is tolerant. She acknowledges that it exist and she does not care unless it occures in her life. But she does not accept it.

A point I hear from many GGs who are in relationships with CDs is that "there was a secret", that you didn't tell her about. My social circle is composed almost entirely of GGs. From my personal experience almost all of them have things they have hidden from their husbands/SOs.

A few years ago one of my GG friends was complaining to the girls about her husband coming out as a CD. She was very bitter about it. Which surprised us. When asked why, her answer was that he had hid a secret from her and therefore she could not trust him. When I asked her if her husband knew that in College he had been in a ltr with a woman for 2 years, and had been a very promiscous stripper for 3 years; she said "No, what does that have to do with anything?". I told her it was the same thing, she was keeping secrets from her husband. The response was interesting. She said "No, completely different. That was in the past and he has no business knowing about it. This is NOW and I have every right to now about it. " I said that the point was she was still keeping secrets from him.

This started a very long discussion with the girls. Eventually everyone agreed that she was keeping secrets from him, but about half took her side that it was "OK" to keep things from the past secret. The other half agreeing that if she trusted him then she needed to tell him about her past, which she resolutely refused to do. The final consensus was that she needed to stop focusing on the "secret" aspect, as long as she was keeping secrets from him, and just admit that she had an acceptance issue.

Eventually they went to couples therapy which didn't work because she just would not accept that part of him.They got divorced, she met a "real man" who eventually abused her. It was just a mess. The point is most women I know have some sort of secret they keep from their SOs. I know more about my friends than their SO's do. It is amazing to me that I casually discuss things with my friends that they would never ever tell their SO.

But I do have to take the wifes side on one thing. This is pretty major and should have been brought up before marriage. Because she is forming her opinion of the man she is marrying based on what she knows. Dont' think, though, that this is exclusive to CDs. For instance my ex wife told me recently that her current hubby of 20 years has no idea who she really is or of her wild teen/early 20s. She has no plans to talk to him about that as she does not want to be divorced again. It is more common than you might think for SOs to have secrets.

I think there is another aspect to it. The wife doesn't know where it ends. If it is just a little cding at home it's one thing. But the wife thinks husband is going full transition it's quite another thing. And There are those on here who think that path is inevitable.

I guess I?m out of the loop, but what does WIFEY and NIMBY mean? Thanks, someone. I agree with Paulie. Who knows where it?s going? In review, some responses have been from various orientations....straight, gay, bi...I know...who cares, but they are different when it come to cding. One public bane...assumption....all cders are gay....no we?re not! Some have full support...some DADT...some none. My wife supports me dressing...with one provision...I tell her immediately, if my orientation changes....which I suppose could happen, but, so far, nothing, other than dressing is my world.

I agree with Paulie and Roberta here .. 100%

I don't care what anyone does at this stage of my life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone , that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to hang out with you though . That goes for many things . Some behaviors in this world are like what the heck !?!?!?! but hey as long as it doesn't injure anyone ..
In my case it's because I am not a very straight person , I never have been so I cannot judge .. at all .. sometimes MY behavior has been outlandish also .

Everyone has hard limits , they just do. As far as CDing I cannot tolerate extremes ( except for Docs pict o stories , I LOVE Docs pict o stories) . If you are being authentic fine but I am not into caricatures of women with alt personalities and fake voices .



As for fish , I was raised on an island in Texas and I love to deep sea fish and will eat anything that swims .

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Originally Posted by NancySue

I guess I?m out of the loop, but what does WIFEY and NIMBY mean?

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Hi Nancy Sue, NIMBY means Not In My BackYard, meaning you can be tolerant to something when it affects others, and less when it affects you, such as the installation of a mobile telephony antenna in the neighborhood. E.g. you like it in others' backyard but don't want it in yours. When used in a pejorative way it equates to saying that someone is a hypocrite (others can get the burden, but not you), so it can be offensive.
I have seen this acronym used for wives that consider themselves accepting of crossdressing as a practice but do not want an husband who does it. In my opinion that doesn't qualify as NIMBY because these women probably never pretended that crossdressing was good for any couple but theirs. They are just saying that they have no problems with guys crossdressing in general, and that doesn't mean they have to accept it in their own couple. Rhonda Jean summarized it well in the first line of his post in that thread.
WIFEY is just Wifey (the Wife character in a couple, the other one being Hubby). I just found it funny to "uppercase" it to balance NIMBY.

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Originally Posted by Michellebej

Technically toleration is something you acknowledge without acceptance.

A few years ago one of my GG friends was complaining to the girls about her husband coming out as a CD. She was very bitter about it. Which surprised us. When asked why, her answer was that he had hid a secret from her and therefore she could not trust him. When I asked her if her husband knew that in College he had been in a ltr with a woman for 2 years, and had been a very promiscous stripper for 3 years; she said "No, what does that have to do with anything?". I told her it was the same thing, she was keeping secrets from her husband. The response was interesting. She said "No, completely different. That was in the past and he has no business knowing about it. This is NOW and I have every right to now about it. " I said that the point was she was still keeping secrets from him.

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Secrets are never helpful but I can see how someone might not want to go through the extend of what they DID in the PAST. Crossdressing is/will be PRESENT and FUTURE. And although trying to get your head around what your partner might have done once or multiple times in the past can be tough, especially if it clashes to who you know your partner to be now, it is a thousand times harder when you are taking about something that your partner was doing yesterday/wants to do today and every day/year/decade. You are trying to compare apples and seaweed here. It's not the word "secret". It's the concept of (from your side) secretive behaviour, of hiding, of lying, of avoiding family trips so you can "get your girl on", of possible sexual incompatibility, of biting your tongue when your wife is openly going clothes shopping and she asks you if that looks good on her, with a healthy dose of (from your wife's side) "wtf" when she discovers it/ you tell her, after years of thinking she knew everything about you. "Everyone has secrets" is poor rationalisation from those doing the secreting.

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Originally Posted by Miel GG

@Devi,
I am happy that you wanted to report macho comments but I totally disagree with you here. As a GG I found your post mysogynist. Your vision of women is outdated. Women are not all emotion and men are not all reason ! (Sorry I don't change my mind during the night more often than any human being) Patriarchy assigned Culture to men to ensure their power and assigned Nature to women (poor ones, they are not able to think by themselves, they are fragile and versatile...) to ensure control of them. In reality, women AND men are under hormones control. By the way do you know that scientists demonstrated that testosterone isn't correlated to violent behavior ?

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Totally agree with Miel, Devi, nothing Diane said was misogynistic or macho. I think your view of women is skewed and slightly fairytale-ish. The balance between emotion and logic is something we all employ when trying to make decisions, men and women alike. If you think you are being only logical in every decision you ever made, I think you need to look harder. Crossdressing is not a logical act. With the whole subtext attached to it (I don't agree with it, btw), the consequences to life and family, with the self-loathing I have seen many here struggle with, it's not logical. It's a highly emotional act, littered with emotional mental reactions. That's why it's impossible to answer the question of "why you do it?" Every answer I saw here started with "because it makes me feel..." There are many I have seen trying rationalisation (makes me more empathetic, easier to talk to, calms me down when stressed etc) but to a purely logical mind, all of these things can be counteracted by alternative methods. I have met exactly 0 women who need clothes to experience any of the above mental states. It exclusively happens to crossdressers. So, to a non-crossdresser male or a GG, it is impossible to empathise. I invite you to stop trying to assign logic and emotion to men and women. They both happen by humans.

The expression I grew up with was, "I like Smoky the Bear, but I wouldn't want my sister to marry him"! Acceptance is your sister marrying Smoky and you move on with everything being ok. Tolerance is your sister marrying Smoky, you don't go out of your way to see them, but you will be nice to them when they come over to visit. DADT, is never seeing your sister and her husband, you never talk about them, you didn't go to the wedding either.

It is amazing how people can move from acceptance, to tolerance, to prejudice, depending how close to home the situation becomes. CD'ing is one of those things that can stir up a lot of emotions, so I think it is unfair to look at your wife reaction based on outside evidence. That is not to say that she may change her mind after time of getting used to this new reality. Fear is a major driving force in this world, your wife needs time to process all of this information, and rebuild her trust level with you.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

My wife is allergic to fish!!!

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I totally support your wife Stephanie. She can join the forum, we can create a special section for it and at least CharGG and myself will empathize with her and give her advices about how to handle these tricky situations when the SO wants to microwave seafood, which padlocks work best to prevent this, etc.

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

Acceptance is your sister marrying Smoky and you move on with everything being ok. Tolerance is your sister marrying Smoky, you don't go out of your way to see them, but you will be nice to them when they come over to visit. DADT, is never seeing your sister and her husband, you never talk about them, you didn't go to the wedding either.

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Nicely put. And may I add, NIMBY is going around telling that having a sister married to Smoky is cool, and the day your sister marries Smoky refusing to see her and her furry hubby.

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

your wife needs time to process all of this information, and rebuild her trust level with you.

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I guess she does. I hope she will.

I guess that I am in the middle, My:love:Wife knows about everything, She just don't want
to see me while I am dressed.

We have a great working DA/DT I stay with in my boundaries and life is great. >Orchid .oO:daydreaming:Oo.

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Originally Posted by AllieSF

We see each other now and she sounds the same as before, but she never reciprocates in calling me to see how I am, or to invite me over, which she always did, or to watch a movie. Maybe someday?? I hope!!??

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Allie I hope you get a chance to talk with her and let her tell her feelings towards you. And for you to explain that crossdressing doesn't change your love for her.

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Originally Posted by BLUE ORCHID

I guess that I am in the middle, My:love:Wife knows about everything, She just don't want
to see me while I am dressed.

We have a great working DA/DT I stay with in my boundaries and life is great. >Orchid .oO:daydreaming:Oo.

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That is more or less what I am aiming at with my wife. But it is still a big pill to swallow for her.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Usually the people that claim they are tolerant really aren't.NIMBY proves this in spades.

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Tracii, tolerance and acceptation have of course varying levels. But my point was that not wanting a crossdresser husband/SO doesn't invalidate the fact that a woman can be tolerant about crossdressing. She just doesn't want to engage in it with her own couple. To me, NIMBY doesn't equate intolerance.

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Originally Posted by confused_cathreen

Totally agree with Miel, Devi, nothing Diane said was misogynistic or macho.

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Pheeewww :itsok:

Thanks Dianne.

For the record, I started out as a CD and loved every moment of it, and I did it because I liked it. I just took each step along my path and eventually got to the point where I knew what I was and needed to inform those that needed to know, family, friends, neighbors and acquaintances all over the place. When I came out to my kids, and later everyone else, I came out as Transgender and Trans, because even though those words mean the umbrella term for all of us and does not specifically narrow it down to Transsexual, which I am, these words are easier to digest by the general public. I did that about five years ago and have been full time for about 3 years now. Also, when I came out I came out verbally and only went full time much later. I wanted them to have time to digest it all before presenting fully as a woman, the woman that I am.

So, when I use NIMBY I also sometimes use "head buried in the sand." My daughter accepts gays, lesbians and trans people as existing and having every right to be themselves. However, now that it is in here yard, her Dad that is a woman, she has refused to talk about it no matter how much I tried. We have lost that close connection that I loved and now miss so much.

Also, I am a very late starter at everything, just getting interested in crossdressing at age 60 in 2007. So, I really had no long past secrets about this. I was and still am, single, retired, living alone, so my secrets were about what I did in my own free time, and was nobody's business because it in no way affected them, until it could because of my new identity and intended full time presentation.

I have been on this site since 2007 and have seen so many of these conversations over the years. They are good to have because they help a lot of people understand the situation from many different points of view. This thread is a very good one because we have some GG points of view, which were generally lacking in the past. My main concern when I read these threads is that we tend to focus on the reaction of the spouse and get opinions both ways stating one is lying and the other is being intolerant and unreasonable. I always wonder why that after the initial shock, a couple of weeks or months, the uninformed SO then refuses to talk with his/her partner to discuss what needs to be done, what is the path forward, do we need professional and qualified third party support and so on.

So, based on my 13 years on this site I always wonder why not! I would guess that there are more DADT or worse situations than those where both parties work for a successful future for both whether together or not. So, in the case of the MtF spouse refusing to talk about it all, at that point who is not working to make things better and why not? That is my daughter. If we can't discuss her feelings, and me mine, we can be together but not be at the same time.

Since the divorce rate in the USA is around 50%, I would guess that percent of good versus not so good marriages for members of this site is similar. I also believe that communication is the key for any successful relationship and maybe these figures also indicate the about 50% of the members here who are in a relationship are either good or not so good communicators. To communicate in a relationship means that both parties talk about a lot of things including issues in their lives, together or when away at work, etc. If one cannot talk about the small issues they probably cannot deal with larger ones. That was basically one of the major issues in my failed marriage of 21 years, way before I started CDing.

So, if it is NIMBY, Head in the Sand, or something else, what happens if you cannot talk about the issues involved and reach some sort of plan for the future because one party refuses? Who is the guilty, uncooperative paty? I think that is what a lot of these threads are trying to say, I am trying but not getting any cooperation and what can I do.

DianeT, Thanks very much. Learned something new today. Appreciate it. I know I?m one of the lucky ones. I would?ve bet the farm she?d be long gone when I told her. Thankfully, I was wrong. We read a lot and talked a lot. Bottom line...neither one of us understand my CDing. There are three stipulations...1. Don?t wear her clothes, 2. Don?t go out and 3. Tell her immediately if there any changes...i.e transition. I agreed to all.

My wife and I were introduced to each other by mutual friends and both of us had just gotten out of abusive marriages. We didn't want to meet but did meet at our friends home. I had been working on an 18 wheeler and was filthy, with a ripped shirt and looked very undesirable to say the least. She was dressed up to go out partying for her birthday that was a couple days ago, She looked fine.

She told me later that she thought I looked like a Hells Angel. We talked for awhile and then went to a cafe for dinner, then went to my place to talk some more. After a bit I told her I needed to get cleaned up and before going to clean up I decided to tell her everything about me. I handed her my journal and said she should and could read it. It contained everything about my life, I figured to handle it this way that way she could not say I ever lied about anything. It took awhile to get rid of all the grease and when I came out she said she needed to think about what she had read. A couple of days later I called her and asked if she would like to go with me to San Diego, we would be gone 3 days. She accepted and we talked and have talked for the last 30 years.

I can dress whenever I want, but I dont push it. I give her plenty of time with the male she married and the cross dersser she buys clothes for. We have NO secrets past or present. I am truly a blessed person.

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Originally Posted by Miel GG

@Devi,


@Kelly,
Heart, but I shall say Love is the argument used by patriarchal society to manipulate women. In this society, women are traditionally in charge of care, of the well-being of their family, and the name of Love is always used to force them to sacrifice themselves, i.e. don't divorce : you will hurt your children, don't leave your man : endure the behavior of your husband, he has had an affair because men have more sexual needs (wtf !)... With this argument, you only lead women to act to the benefit of the husband and you deny them the right to preserve themselves too.
I am quite sure that when you have an important decision to make you try to be rational and don't let emotions guide your choice.
I had only meant to the OP that her OP was applying head thinking (logic) to what her spouse may be seeing as heart (emotional) issue for her. Some people like what they like for no logical reason other than it's what makes them happy and comfortable. My wife and I are almost complete opposites of what would be considered "traditional" emotional roles for our bio genders, I'm more emotional and she is more logical, but we make it work .

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Originally Posted by Dutchess

I agree with Paulie and Roberta here .. 100%

I don't care what anyone does at this stage of my life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone , that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to hang out with you though . That goes for many things . Some behaviors in this world are like what the heck !?!?!?! but hey as long as it doesn't injure anyone ..
In my case it's because I am not a very straight person , I never have been so I cannot judge .. at all .. sometimes MY behavior has been outlandish also .

Everyone has hard limits , they just do. As far as CDing I cannot tolerate extremes ( except for Docs pict o stories , I LOVE Docs pict o stories) . If you are being authentic fine but I am not into caricatures of women with alt personalities and fake voices .



As for fish , I was raised on an island in Texas and I love to deep sea fish and will eat anything that swims .

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No offense to doc, but isn't the ability to literally put on and take off a 'whole' female skin the ultimate caricature of a woman ?

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Originally Posted by Tammy Lynn Tx

My wife and I were introduced to each other by mutual friends and both of us had just gotten out of abusive marriages. We didn't want to meet but did meet at our friends home. I had been working on an 18 wheeler and was filthy, with a ripped shirt and looked very undesirable to say the least. She was dressed up to go out partying for her birthday that was a couple days ago, She looked fine.

She told me later that she thought I looked like a Hells Angel. We talked for awhile and then went to a cafe for dinner, then went to my place to talk some more. After a bit I told her I needed to get cleaned up and before going to clean up I decided to tell her everything about me. I handed her my journal and said she should and could read it. It contained everything about my life, I figured to handle it this way that way she could not say I ever lied about anything. It took awhile to get rid of all the grease and when I came out she said she needed to think about what she had read. A couple of days later I called her and asked if she would like to go with me to San Diego, we would be gone 3 days. She accepted and we talked and have talked for the last 30 years.

I can dress whenever I want, but I dont push it. I give her plenty of time with the male she married and the cross dersser she buys clothes for. We have NO secrets past or present. I am truly a blessed person.

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Way to go !

My wife was very much a NIMBY. She admits now that there was a time when she would rather see me dead than in a dress. My reading of this thread tells me that she has a perfect right to hold this opinion and that since my feminine tendency was hidden before we were married, she had no opportunity to decide for herself to reject me, and I have no right to impose my dressing on her now. Do I have a handle on it?

Well, that's not how it happened here. In my naivete or arrogance, I believe I have a right to evolve. True, my dressing emerged well before we met, and should perhaps be on the table. But I hated that part of myself in that period, suppressed her and believed her to be permanently eliminated. So when Suzanne re-emerged and asserted herself with a vengeance, she would not be denied. I have since come to terms with that part of me, even to love her contribution to my life. She is so powerful a force for whatever is good in me that if I were to be given The Ultimatum, I would have chosen to end the marriage.

Fortunately, it never came to that. My wife's Catholic faith tells her "For better or Worse", so instead of hiring lawyers, we hired a marriage counselor. To my wife's great credit, she re-examined her feelings and softened. At home, my approach has been to demonstrate that I am the same person regardless of how I am dressed. It has worked.

Maybe you think i am in the wrong here and that I'm lucky the marriage hasn't crashed. But people do evolve over time. You can't expect someone to be exactly the same person in their fifties that they were in their early twenties. I shudder to think of my body being inhabited by the spirit of a nineteen year old in all his immaturity. Maybe i have crossed a line, and evidently many of you wouldn't survive such a transgression, but in our case it turned out to salvageable.

hello Diane,
I do not know your wife so I stress that I am not commenting about her.
I will make an general observation that closet bigots (for example racists) will often try to appear tolerant by declaring "I've got nothing against .... "or "some of my best friends are ... ". A truly tolerant person would not feel the need to say that. Also, we will rarely change the minds of the intolerant by accusing them of being intolerant - the shutters come down. Similarly trying to use logic to highlight the hypocrisy of the semi-tolerant can just highlight your superiority - and nobody likes a smart ass!
By accepting the NIMBY types we show how tolerant we are, without having to prove it.
luv J

[QUOTE=Kelly DeWinter;4447894] No offense to doc, but isn't the ability to literally put on and take off a 'whole' female skin the ultimate caricature of a woman ?


Do you see me going out with Sherry ????? No you do not

I said plainly that the pictostories were the exception ... I find it fascinating how he ( Doc) thinks up these things and puts them together . He is different from every single person on this forum . Its more like some kind of performance art with the pictures telling a different story each time for years .

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

I had only meant to the OP that her OP was applying head thinking (logic) to what her spouse may be seeing as heart (emotional) issue for her. Some people like what they like for no logical reason other than it's what makes them happy and comfortable. My wife and I are almost complete opposites of what would be considered "traditional" emotional roles for our bio genders, I'm more emotional and she is more logical, but we make it work .!

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Sorry @Kelly, I obviously misunderstood your previous post.

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Originally Posted by Dutchess

I find it fascinating how he ( Doc) thinks up these things and puts them together . He is different from every single person on this forum . Its more like some kind of performance art with the pictures telling a different story each time for years .

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It baffles me how Doc has a picture for every situation :)

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The purpose of the post is to deny the NIMBY qualifier for wives who consider themselves tolerant to crossdressing

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So, in effect, you are denying your spouse the right to decide what is, and isn't tolerable to her?

To use your own, flawed analogy, just because YOU like fish, and your spouse has no issue with you eating fish, then SHE should eat fish as well.

Just because someone is willing to tolerate certain behaviours in OTHERS, it doesn't mean that they will accept such behaviours in their own situations. Why is this so hard to understand?

JodieLynn, I agree with you, it is not so hard to understand. And the whole point of my post is to demonstrate that. So we just happen to be on the same page you and I, and you may want to read my post a second time, knowing this. The example I gave about fish is a demonstration by absurdity. It is pushing to the extreme the logic of the previous example, in order to prove it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Dutchess

As for fish , I was raised on an island in Texas and I love to deep sea fish and will eat anything that swims .

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I like the way you say this, and it ringed a bell. I have an uncle who travelled all around the world for work. He is an absolute lover of cuisine and an insatiable curious mind for all types of foods. So any country he visited, he tasted the local dishes and ate, as he once told my wife and I, "about every beast that walks, crawls or swims".
One day right after we had lunch in his house, he goes to a little cupboard and reaches for a suspicious bottle and presents it to us. On the bottle is a tag with English and Chinese words. Inside the bottle is a clear liquid. Inside the clear liquid is a lizard with the belly cut and the guts exposed and floating around. Yummy. He tells us it is a digestive liquor he got from a Chinese cook of his friends and asks us if we want some. My wife and I decline politely. He then remarks that the liquid level is a little below the top part of the lizard which isn't good for conservation. He reaches to another bottle of pure alcohol and fills up the lizard liquor bottle with it. Then he vigorously shakes the bottle to mix the pure alcohol with the liquor. In the process the lizard gets vigorously shaken too and sends little pieces of its body in all directions. The liquid which was once clear is now shrouded in lizard scales and squamas.
My uncle uncaps the bottle, pours a small shooter glass and... bottoms up! He lands the glass on the wooden table with a clang! and declares: "Good for the heart!". If only I had a photograph of the look on our faces at this instant :)

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. I don't mind if someone doesn't like fish, but it's the person who never tasted fish but just goes by the smell or what other people tell them. They don't give things a chance, who knows you mite like it at the end of the day.

Maria, if I follow the analogy, that is saying that a wife should be in a relationship with a crossdresser husband before being entitled to declare that it is not for her. I have to disagree. If I applied this to myself, it would mean that I should engage in same gender sex before being allowed to declare that I am a heterosexual man. I don't believe that is true.

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Originally Posted by confused_cathreen

Secrets are never helpful but I can see how someone might not want to go through the extend of what they DID in the PAST. Crossdressing is/will be PRESENT and FUTURE. And although trying to get your head around what your partner might have done once or multiple times in the past can be tough, especially if it clashes to who you know your partner to be now, it is a thousand times harder when you are taking about something that your partner was doing yesterday/wants to do today and every day/year/decade. You are trying to compare apples and seaweed here. It's not the word "secret". It's the concept of (from your side) secretive behaviour, of hiding, of lying, of avoiding family trips so you can "get your girl on", of possible sexual incompatibility, of biting your tongue when your wife is openly going clothes shopping and she asks you if that looks good on her, with a healthy dose of (from your wife's side) "wtf" when she discovers it/ you tell her, after years of thinking she knew everything about you. "Everyone has secrets" is poor rationalisation from those doing the secreting.



Totally agree with Miel, Devi, nothing Diane said was misogynistic or macho. I think your view of women is skewed and slightly fairytale-ish. The balance between emotion and logic is something we all employ when trying to make decisions, men and women alike. If you think you are being only logical in every decision you ever made, I think you need to look harder. Crossdressing is not a logical act. With the whole subtext attached to it (I don't agree with it, btw), the consequences to life and family, with the self-loathing I have seen many here struggle with, it's not logical. It's a highly emotional act, littered with emotional mental reactions. That's why it's impossible to answer the question of "why you do it?" Every answer I saw here started with "because it makes me feel..." There are many I have seen trying rationalisation (makes me more empathetic, easier to talk to, calms me down when stressed etc) but to a purely logical mind, all of these things can be counteracted by alternative methods. I have met exactly 0 women who need clothes to experience any of the above mental states. It exclusively happens to crossdressers. So, to a non-crossdresser male or a GG, it is impossible to empathise. I invite you to stop trying to assign logic and emotion to men and women. They both happen by humans.

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Apples to Seaweed....no...let me start off by explaining a bit about my background. I spend a good time of my life as an Interviewer/Interrogator. It was my job to get into peoples heads and make them confess to crimes they had committed solely through the use of psychology and speech. Think "Gibbs" of NCIS, except in my world that character is very amaturish.

One of our truisms is that "past is prelude to the future". Meaning that for the vast majority of people behavior expressed in the past, and especially the period from birth to early 20s is "hardwired" into a person. I'll just throw out right now that some people do change, most though just control their behavior. Though they often think they have changed. A person can go for years even decades thinking they have changed till they encounter the right trigger.

So secrets of past behavior are NOT ok to keep "because it is in the past". That is a logical fallacy. At best it is wishful thinking, at worst it is lying to oneself and ones SO.

That is my professional opinion, an opinion so common in my "world" as to be an axiom.

This subject resonates with me and my situation. I have been struggling with dadt and trying to work up the courage to revisit the talk. I mentioned my wife being very tolerant and speculated that she would be accepting and was schooled on this by the more experienced which I am thankful for as it made me take pause.

One thing that always comes up is that I should have told her before we were married. It was 1970, she was 17, I was 18, I was worried about her daddy getting his shotgun out and had not put 2 and 2 together and did not know myself. Fortunately the marriage has survived and we have both grown since then. I have no desire to end the marriage but I have accepted that I am a crossdresser who may have deeper gender issues since nest emptied out and adult kids stopped moving back in. My home has literally been a zoo for most of the last fifty years where I supported a family on one income and rarely had time to think about my own needs. I know that is hard for some to relate to but that is why I did not tell her. I did not know myself which is a common theme for those who marry young.

I perceive my wife as accepting, she watches every show and series with LGBTQ themes, my kids gay friends always loved that about my wife and drop in to see us now that our kids have moved out. My oldest daughter came out as a lesbian and left a 20 year marriage and my wife is fully supportive and we still have a close relationship with our former son in law. I have mentioned that and it was quickly pointed out that those things do not guarantee my wife's acceptance. I am thankful that was pointed out even though it is not the response I wanted to hear.

I am not in a position to offer advice or point to personal experience to prove any points but am appreciative of these types of discussions and follow them with great interest hoping to learn things that apply to my situation.

I thought secure in revisiting my dadt based on my wife's tolerant attitude but posts like this have caused me to take pause and learn more. Thank you.

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By the way, I love fish and my wife has a shell fish allergy. I have owned boats and what we refer to as fish houses for ice fishing but that does not guarantee acceptance.

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Originally Posted by Michellebej

One of our truisms is that "past is prelude to the future". Meaning that for the vast majority of people behavior expressed in the past, and especially the period from birth to early 20s is "hardwired" into a person.

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Interesting. I had a lot of "moments" during that time that continue to influence "this" part of me, but there's on seminal moment that was the confluence of a lot of things that seems to linger in my mind as THE moment that embossed the rest of my life. A powerful moment. It was powerful then (at about age 15, maybe 14), but I certainly had no way of knowing then how powerful. Impossible to know then that for the rest of my life this would enter my mind frequently (Daily? I've never documented.) and shape so many thoughts and decisions. It could have been just another day in the life, but it stuck. I've often wondered what my life would have been like had it not happened just the way it did.

Dear Rhonda, that is not fair. The suspense is killing me now :)

EDIT
This is a joke. Don't tell!!!

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Originally Posted by Star01

I am not in a position to offer advice or point to personal experience to prove any points but am appreciative of these types of discussions and follow them with great interest hoping to learn things that apply to my situation.

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Star I am so glad to read this.

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Originally Posted by Star01

I thought secure in revisiting my dadt based on my wife's tolerant attitude but posts like this have caused me to take pause and learn more. Thank you.

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Posts like this one, or the other where you seek advice (one inch, one mile)?
About the latter (inch/mile) I didn't contribute because I have a poor track record (lied to my wife) and that makes it hard for me to give advice on certain matters. But I have been told repeatedly by GGs in these forums that building a relationship with lies and hiding isn't good. I would add this if I may: a relationship where you can't talk to your SO about the things that matter in your life isn't good either. Which kind of relates back to the previous sentence (because of the hiding).
I'm not in your shoes so can't advise to have the talk again with your wife. In my shoes maybe some couples' counseling would be something to consider if my wife didn't want to talk about a subject.

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Originally Posted by Star01

By the way, I love fish and my wife has a shell fish allergy. I have owned boats and what we refer to as fish houses for ice fishing but that does not guarantee acceptance.

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I love something too that my wife is allergic to. We are working on it since I came out a few months back.

Diane,
Its' quite an interesting discussion , I'm partly inclined to agree with Tracii , you can ask this question to 100 people and get 100 different answers .

I'm inclined to disagree with Char , to fully know and disclose everything to another person in their very early twenties isn't realistic , marriage always has it's risks and can never be called foolproof , as I found to my cost both parties can have secrets or choose to withold the truth .

Dutchess makes a point that resonates with me , to be an occasional crossdresser is one thing but being authentic is another . For a wife/partner to live with a man who may embarrass you by being caught wearing womens clothes is very different from someone saying I wish to live the rest of my life as a woman . I never thought or expected my wife to respect me for crossdressing but I've now earned her respect for my totally honesty and conviction , OK either way she wouldn't want to live with it .

@DianeT your uncle is definitely one after my own heart .. yes indeed ..
and yes it is amazing how Doc comes up with a pictostory for every occasion , I dont know how he does it but I like it .



@Teresa , what I mean in my case is not so much crossdressing , because I like non binary androgynous guys really well but I was telling someone here about a funeral of a TS friend of mine who died and at the funeral my bizarre ex husband wore a spandex jumpsuit and stilettos and I had a FIT . Well of course I was a bigot , intolerant and 50 other names he could think of to call me but it came down to the fact I was going to have to go to a very serious occasion with a guy in a spandex jumpsuit ( for female people ) that screamed SEX and extreme heels or not tell my friend goodbye at all .


Boy was I resentful ,, AND he demanded to be taken seriously like this . NO one wore anything like that . NO one . There were people from here and people we knew from facebook also . all over the TG spectrum. He ended up being so embarrassed that he hid behind me most of the time and when I peeled myself away from him for a few minutes he would not speak to anyone and hid in a pew , in a corner , etc etc .. that kind of thing I do not like at all .
Its that extreme over the top behavior/ drama queen stuff that embarrasses me .


..... and if anyone here again wants to question why I am still here and speaking about my exp its to help others avoid situations like this .

To Star01 ... You said," I mentioned my wife being very tolerant and speculated that she would be accepting and was schooled on this by the more experienced which I am thankful for as it made me take pause."
After all that has happened in your marriage, she still loves or cares about you a great deal. Consider this approach .. One evening when you two are watching TV, bring her a glass of wine. Sit next to her and tell her that you have to talk about your DADT situation. Tell her what you essentially told us in your post. Let her ask questions and answer them truthfully. See what evolves. You may also ask her to go to counseling with you. Just saying. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Michellebej

Apples to Seaweed....no...let me start off by explaining a bit about my background. I spend a good time of my life as an Interviewer/Interrogator. It was my job to get into peoples heads and make them confess to crimes they had committed solely through the use of psychology and speech. Think "Gibbs" of NCIS, except in my world that character is very amaturish.

Not to disparage you or your profession, however it's also true that psychology can be and is used at time to get people to confess to crimes even if they did NOT commit them. Some people do not have the personal fortitude to stand up to hours of questioning even if they did NOT commit the crime. And as you know the improper use of interrogation is used to often in the United States. My background includes MI

One of our truisms is that "past is prelude to the future". Meaning that for the vast majority of people behavior expressed in the past, and especially the period from birth to early 20s is "hardwired" into a person. I'll just throw out right now that some people do change, most though just control their behavior. Though they often think they have changed. A person can go for years even decades thinking they have changed till they encounter the right trigger.

Psychologists and the Military have proven that you can rewire your brain to change your behavior to suit goals or needs. The Military does it with thousands of Recruits during Boot Camp. I cite myself as an example, To this day I make my bed Military inspection fashion every day because I learned that if you accomplish 1 thing first thing in the morning you can go on to accomplish many things.

So secrets of past behavior are NOT ok to keep "because it is in the past". That is a logical fallacy. At best it is wishful thinking, at worst it is lying to oneself and ones SO.

While being honest to a spouse and a SO is a very good idea and i heartily recommend it as a first recourse, there are times when self preservation overrides everything, such as a divorce, your job, the person you are dealing with. I grew up with two alcoholic parents, my ex whom I dated for 4 years and thought I knew everything about turned out to be a mean social drunk. We talked about CD/TG issues from time to time and would have had my personal,professional and family life destroyed by her out of spite. From posts withing this community, too often a relationship ends, but the spite and anger live on

That is my professional opinion, an opinion so common in my "world" as to be an axiom.

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Interesting points thou.

I have a number of GG friends who are tolerant of me and transgender people, generally. Only a couple of these women have also expressed their willingness to be personally involved with a TG person. That?s ok. We all have our personal preferences when it comes to close/intimate relationships, preferences that would not apply to other interpersonal relationships.

I don't drink so she would not want to see me with a glass of her wine. He attitude is that I am the one with problems and need the counseling. The subject of my crossdressing has not been brought up in eighteen years.

I tried to comment on politics and even though we share the same views and voting patterns I apparently did not frame my comments correctly. She went all Sanford and Son on me and told me to shut up or she was going to have a heart attack. Seriously, she shut a calm rational comment down and it had nothing to do with my crossdressing. When I revisit the talk which the first time was basically her setting the terms with no input and ending the conversation I will need to be prepared for it to end abruptly.

She has gotten like that in her late 60's where it's hard to have a conversation. I basically live in the lower level and don't go up there when she is in a mood. It's not so bad, the cats come down and hang with me. Isolation didn't change my life much.

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But this isn't my thread so I will step aside and try not to hijack this one.