Shocked,Angry but mostly Saddened.

Had my family over for a fathers day/birthday barbacue yesterday (social distancing obviously) and do not know how or why the conversation took on a discussion about transexuals people and crossdressers.

I always thought i had brought my kids up to be open minded and accepting adults but I was shocked when the conversation turned very transphobic with words like weirdos,freaks etc being banded about and comments like what ever they are, made me feel uncomfortable, annoyed but mostly sad that my kids thought this way.

A couple of other family members outwith my direct family were even more disrespectful saying they should be locked up, they look more manly than me etc. Have you seen the tranny that works in this shop was another topic for laughter and ridicule. I sat and just took it in thinking wow and then eventually asked, what if your kid came to you and said they were trans or crossdressed would you disown them? The response was of course not and I replied your all bloody hypocrites then as you have all just sat here taking the piss out of them.

I have been toying with the idea of coming out to family members for a while but after what I heard yesterday I think that will not be happening.

X x x

...and that's why coming out to family is a bad idea.

Happy father's day.

Sorry to read your story. Depending on where you live, I think it?s a bad idea to come out at all. We live in a smaller town. Discovery would be a disaster. After golf, our foursome had our usual beer and brats. We got to talking about hunting in cold weather. One of the guys admitted he wore pantyhose to keep warm. He?s still trying to live his revelation down. I said nothing, but if they only knew....not good.

Hi Vicky, I am sorry to hear that about your kids, guess we know why tigers eat their young. The nice thing is we all have the opportunity to grow, maybe they will come around. Thanks for sharing.

Vicky,
The only way we can stop this happening is by coming out , OK I appreciate you put yourself in the firing line . I have no regrets about everyone knowing , it usually stops all these transphobia comments . I TOTALLY agree they can appear hypocrites until they know the truth , I've found then people have come out to me and also people have told me about work colleagues or friends who are TG . I'm lucky , my daughter totally accepts me and she invited me for Sunday lunch to celebrate Father's Day .

All this depends on if you are still in the closet or out in the RW , personally I've not had a single transphobic comment from anyone apart from my wife .

I can totally relate to this Vicky, and yes the word for it is "sad"........

I commend you on putting this back on them. Perhaps those present will think about the intolerance and heartlessness of their comments. That would likely not have happened if you had remained silent.

It is such a tough call; and whether to do it or not depends on each individuals situation. I know that I could never come out. My wife (2nd time around) knows and is tolerant but she would definitely want other to know. My children would not take it well. We all have to balance our choices carefully. Mine is to not reveal myself.

Hi Vicky ,
I was passing by on my way to the FAB forum and I guess its rather timely .
I just wanted to implore you to please be careful and mindful of your own safety , I know you are but still . In a perfect world yes, everyone should be more tolerant or accepting but most o us live in world that is far from that . Where I originally came from in Texas , being this way could cost you your life and no amount of coming out will change this so I am very sensitive to keeping loved ones safe .
My wild wayward ex husband I guess has not checked in with his family in the Netherlands for some time , as my rude bigoted ex dutch FIL messaged me on FB Saturday, my time, ahead of fathers day asking if Id heard from him . I said no actually not in a few years. He said that If I did will I please tell him to either message , call or come home ( to the Netherlands ) and be a grandfather . I said I would and he THEN said that I needed to make sure he knew not to come home "looking like that " or else he would get a "real beating " . I got the idea that I dont think he cares whether he ever comes back to Holland but his instead wanted to make sure he conveyed that nasty opinion on alt lifestyles .
Then an old MC friend of his in Finland that gets scary hostile about it .

So yeah , as much support as you get here , the real world is not so much and it is not worth your life to prove otherwise .

Vicky,

I would urge caution in assuming that your kids were totally onboard with what was being said. Social pressure to conform is a powerful force and it's a brave soul to go against the tribe. If the conversation is lead by a strong personality often sheep will follow.

I would suggest you talk to your kids when there's just them and you. Tell them of your surprise to their responses and ask them what makes them feel that way if the even actually do. Let them know you thought they had been brought up to be better than that and that you were disappointed to hear them respond in such a manner. It's never too late to give guidance to children.

Make your case for tolerance, ask them to explain why they responded as they did, the reasoning behind it. I find often it's just herd mentality that's at the root of such things and no real thought has gone into why someone holds any given position. Once you ask for reasons and non are forthcoming then the argument is yours.

I'm not speaking for or against coming out to anyone.

But it saddens my heart every time I read another example of the fearfulness we are forced to live under.

Sorry you had a bad Father's Day. I have told more than one friend/acquaintance people will speak their minds when they are alone with people with whom they think are of the same beliefs as their own. A neighbor told me recently she noticed I tend to just sit back and let people hang themselves. They assume, if you say nothing, you are one of them. My brother reminded me of our grandmother's sound advice. "A spoken word cannot be unsaid!" Many people, when in public, will be politically correct. In private? Well, you experienced it.

I have always taken the position my cross dressing is a private affair because that is my comfort zone. However, I am vocal when coming to the defense of any person's rights to be who they are. It was nice to see our United States Supreme Court affirm the rights of gays and lesbians and transgender men and women.

I would suggest discussing their behavior and confronting their discriminatory beliefs. You do not have to "out" yourself. If you do, then you're only going to get "politically correct" responses.

I?m sorry that happened, Vicky. It never fails to amaze me how conservative people?s views are when it comes to a man?s role, what he should and shouldn?t like (and wear for that matter).

In the last one hundred years the acceptance of what women can do and how women should dress has changed beyond recognition and yet the same public perceptions of genetic males seem not to have moved on at all.

Ultimately, a father is defined by the role they played in the birth of a child, not whether they were skirts or trousers at weekends. I?ve always been very insistent that I am a person, not a gender.

Hope things work out for you.

Pretty much typical, prejudice, closed minded, people.

Basically this is a lot of what is wrong with the world in general. Passing judgement with little or no information. Wanting everyone to be the same as they are, fearing anything that is different.

I guess you did want you could.

You may be able to change their minds, but without coming out I don't think it will happen. Even then there is no guarantee.

I have changed and/or influenced many people. I have done this by simply being out, being myself, and letting them get to know me. Some are easier than others, still it takes time.


Here is the problem, (guessing) most people likely know and/or have met someone from our community but don't know it, because most are in the closet, or stay in the shadows.

Family have addition complications to overcome, as a member of this or any group there are expectations. It's been seen here many times.

Vicky, it's very sad that this sort of attitude still exists, but you did the best thing by challenging their remarks and putting them right. Good for you! :thumbsup:

You just never know how people will react until confronted with any given situation.

They said they would not disown their kids, but I would not bet on that either. (however you will know them better than anyone here)

I agree it is sad. Sometimes it can be how the subject is raised, can lead to a herd mentality.

There is a world of difference between

"have you seen the tranny that works in the local shop" and "I see someone in the local shop is brave enough to be themselves"

I have had similar conversations at work. I mostly reply by saying, you may not like it but what did they do to you.

Coming out is a purely personal decision. It is worth remembering the old phrase. You can choose your friends not your family.

Vicky, u don't mention the ages of your kids. Maybe they'll mature with age?:thumbsup:

Even if they're in their 20's, they've got a long way to go!:brolleyes:

Hello Vicky,
whether you are out or not - it's your house and your rules.
If you don't like people (including family) being transphobic, racist, homophobic &c. you have the right to ask them to leave.
My father was a bit racist - when he stayed here I made it clear that bigotry was not acceptable.
stay healthy,
luv J

My grandma who is 85 or so. Is very transphobic. On top of being a very bitter old lady. If I didn't live with her. She would never know. The stuff she has said to me. I use to just let it roll off my back, but its gotten a lot worst. In the last few months.

I wasn't planning on moving out so soon but I have no other choice. Will I see her once I move out. Probably not, and I don't care.

I’m sorry to hear about what happened to you. It truly was an awful way to spend your Father’s Day.

I do agree with Helen Highwater in that a lot of kids will pick up on cues from adults as to how to answer. You should definitely circle back and speak with them next opportunity you have to clarify their beliefs.

Not to put it back on you but I do believe parents have a role in teaching acceptance and being opened minded. At least once a year I have that conversation with my kids to see where they are at and answer any questions they have. I often tell them that I used to be pretty conservative and closed minded but that college was a great opportunity to learn about acceptance and also reinforcing the “Golden rule”. Other times I will remind them that if they were gay or trans that they know I would 100% still love and accept them. I don’t think you can say these things enough. Good luck!

Yet some are adamant about chapping our hides for being afraid to be open and truthful to our spouses about our crossdressing. The behavior and attitudes Vicky described are quite prevalent, and give one justifiable fear about revealing to a spouse who has expressed similar opinions, and not knowing if they would keep such a revelation in confidence.

Vicky,
After reading the replies it is again apparent the acceptance gap between the UK and the US , although I would not be so naive to suggest the TG community are 100% safe in the UK . As far as the family is concerned you should hopefully be safe from violence , we are again looking at a lack of understanding , being TG isn't breaking any laws it's just coming to terms with our inner needs and feelings . So educating is the only way forward for you and the rest of our community , we don't have to live outside it , we can integrate perfectly well within it as I've persoanlly discovered . Maybe you should ask the question do you want to live a secret hidden life for ever or do you wish to be open and honest with everyone ? Lets not forget you aren't the only one who has these needs , often the ones making the most noise maybe covering something up .

Rereading your thread, since 'family' was invited to your BBQ, I'm guessing your children were adults. Other family types were very vocal in their negative comments, and that may have been the trigger for your children to join the negative herd, not wanting to start a major argument on Father's Day. It's just a thought you might gently explore with your children.

No matter how many laws are passed or how many people come out, there are going to be people who think negatively about cross dressing and other matters. No law can make someone change their minds, it only makes it illegal for them to discriminate against you. Not everyone is going to like and accept your cross dressing and the sooner you realize that the sooner you will be at piece with yourself.

That's not what I would like to hear. :hugs:
Angie

Vicky, this topic has drawn a variety of responses and it?s very interesting to see how everyone is responding to different specific aspects of your story through the lenses of their own experiences. This story obviously has touched a lot of nerves in a lot of different ways.

I have a different take-away than anyone else so far, and that is this. I?M SO FREAKING PROUD OF YOU!!! Speaking up when you see bigotry and hate takes an enormous amount of courage, and even more so when it?s your family. We can?t just sit idly by and hope people stop being homo- and transphobic. You took a huge risk in doing what you did, but it?s for the betterment of us all, so THANK YOU. You deserve a round of applause.

Vicky, Good for you taking a stand like you did. That sort of thing can just build and steamroll so it was very good you spoke up. Some people just feed off each other’s prejudices and I would like to believe many of us would do what you did.

its strange but i had a bbq for bday sat and same thing happened except it was best freinds that said they are weird and wanted to know if id be ok with kids being trans i said yes and they thought it was wrong ... my wife who knows i dress was in the kitchen and maybe heard never said a thing ...i guess ill never come out to my friends

Hi Vickie,

I concur with Micki-Finn and Crissy, thank you for speaking out. Silence is Consent, not matter the topic.

We get this impression that we have, as a society, made progress and then something like this happens. So glad you confronted their opinions. That is really what is needed. Exposure to "weirdos" like us help them see we aren't so weird afterall, but being called out for showing prejudice and hateful or at least hurtful comments is what is needed.

It happened to me with a sister-in-law and her daughter-in-law. What was it about? A messenger bag that looks faintly like a purse that carry my stuff in. "Bad influence on the kids." B.S. It really hurts when someone does that, especially when they put on that they are so accepting of others. They are, provided the others meet their standards for behavior. I confronted them and their tales of all the terrible things that could happen to me if I deviate from the narrow definition of what a male should look like. Goodness! Open discrimination and they don't even recognize it. Of course that might happen in the city they live in as it is really conservative. But here in Denver people are different than there. Those kinds of things like that don't happen very often. In another sense, their pressure is an attempt to force their standards on you by shame and pressure. Sorry. It just damages the relationship. Who wants to be friendly with family members that think of you that way and let you know that carrying a bag that looks a bit like a purse is not acceptable.

I am truly humbled by all of your responses, thank you so very much.

Yes my kids are adults, 22, 25, 28 and 30 and I know they love me dearly as I do them.

I am blessed with a wonderful wife who has no problem with my dressing and is always buying Vicky things.

Would just be nice to stop the sneaking around when the kids are coming over or just turn up at the door. Running up the stairs to do the quick change and the old excuse be right down just at the toilet...lol

The major stumbling block for me is coming out to the family and my eldest daughter not accepting it and stops me seeing my two grand children. That would break my heart.

Anyways once again for all your replies and taking the time to respond. Means a lot. X x x

Hi Vicky. I can relate. Two of my kids do not speak to each other any more because one of them married someone transgender. I can do nothing to bridge the divide between them as I can not undo the words spoken between them. It is very sad as we do not see them at the same time any more. They had the same upbringing. For whatever reason, some grow up seeing the world differently. In this case they are on very opposite ends of the spectrum.

Sandi

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Originally Posted by Patience

...and that's why coming out to family is a bad idea.

Happy father's day.

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Wow, really? That's your take away from this?

I feel sorry for Vicky_Scot, she found out her family's true feelings, and now, I'm sure, has second, third, and fourth thoughts about coming out.

Until March of this year, I worked at a place that was very gay & trans- phobic. I had to bite my tongue, severely, as I listened to people express their opinions on the gay, and especially, trans community. As a temp worker, it made me sick to my stomach, as I felt I could not offer any counter to the hate.

I'm sorry you had to put up with these attitudes, Vicky. I was especially surprised by those idiots who thought "trannies should be locked up." Unless it was a bad joke, that's serious prejudice, and it makes me wonder what on earth some of these people are so frightened of. What kind of a threat do they imagine transgendered people pose to others, that they need to be "locked up" for everyone else's protection?

If anyone regards this as a "war" against intolerance--we don't have to, but if we do--it's well to remember that famous edict from Sun Tzu's "Art of War": "Know your enemy!" It behooves us to understand how other people think, and what stupid assumptions they might be making that are absolutely incorrect. And just as important, how we ourselves think other people think--whether we're correct or not. (As you probably know, this is called "theory of mind.")

One issue that comes to mind is the old Nature-Nurture debate. If someone is transgendered, what do people think caused them to be that way?

I myself have no doubt that it's chiefly because they were born that way. It's their Nature. If that's true, there's nothing we can do to change them. Out of decent humanity, the only right and fair thing to do is to accept them as they are: harmless.

But what if someone thinks it was Nurture, that some experience in their past made TGs take this "strange" turn? That's a different matter. It implies humans are far more malleable, far more moldable, than they thought. And that cuts both ways.

On the one hand it implies that "what is conditioned can be reconditioned." So if somebody believes transgendered people were "conditioned" to be that way, maybe they think TGs should--not necessarily be "locked up" in some mental institution--but at least get some therapy to straighten their "crazy" ideas out and "get normal."

I mention this because I know a guy who apparently thinks this way. I'll call him "Don." He's an intelligent fellow in his 30s, a good guy. I haven't had a chance to speak to him myself about this, but my daughter told me he thinks it's "absurd" and "outrageous" for people to be diagnosed as "transsexual" and get hormones and surgery to irrevocably alter their bodies in line with their "mistaken" perception of themselves. He thinks they should just get the "proper" therapy to "fix their heads" instead.

I asked her "Then what does he think about gay people?" "Oh, he's got no problem with people being gay," she said. "It's just transsexuals."

So he, a "straight" guy, is not "bigoted" or "intolerant." But apparently he sees a distinction between the causes of sexual orientation and those of gender dysphoria.

I wonder if that's because some people find the concept of "gender identity" hard to grasp. Harder than sexual orientation anyway, when sexual attraction is something we all understand. If we're male, we still know most women are attracted to men, so it's not hard to understand how some men might feel the same way, and vice versa.

But "gender identity" is something different. How can we define or describe it? I suppose the anatomical aspect is simple enough, if someone feels their "body doesn't match their brain"--like having the wrong parts put together at the factory. "I should have had breasts, and different stuff 'down below,' instead of what I was given. I should be having sex 'this way' instead of 'that way.'" But I'm sure that's not the whole story; not by any means; and how on earth do we describe the psychological aspect, of what it means to be the soul of a woman--or the soul of a man? That's a hard thing to put over. Some people may believe the concept of "gender identity" is not real, a mere phantom of a disordered imagination.

Apart from all that, this whole "Nurture" idea has been regrettably overplayed in the last century due to some people's exaggerated obsession with "social constructionism," even extending to the proposition that men and women are only different because of how they were "socialized." (In the case of Bruce Reimer that had fatally tragic results.) And it cuts both ways, because if someone believes transgendered people only need "reconditioning" because they were only "conditioned" to be that way in the first place, the corollary is that anybody might be "made" transgender--and the whole world might be going bonkers because they're being "encouraged" to do so.

Beliefs of that kind are a real basis for FEAR! I need hardly point out that exactly the same parallel has been seen with regard to gayness (even if "Don" has not fallen victim to it). The people who insist that gayness ought to be "cured" by therapy are the same people who are frightened that the whole world is "turning gay" because gayness is being advertised and encouraged as a "valid lifestyle." All this is seen as a threat that must be countered and defended against.

Needless to say, these fears are groundless. Yet some people may perceive their fears as "justified" because the visibility of gay or transgendered people has been increasing.

This reminds me of what Oliver Sacks wrote in his remarkable book, "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat", about Tourette syndrome. Tourette's used to be seen as "rare," a one-in-a-million affliction. Sacks came to realize it was far commoner than we thought, and could recognize it in the "tics" of some men on the street. They were there all the time. People, physicians included, just hadn't been recognizing them, that's all.

Well, nobody is afraid the whole world is going to contract Tourette syndrome. It might be one in a thousand, even one in a hundred. But it's just the same with transgendered people. Estimates used to be that this was a "one in ten thousand" condition. A recent estimate from the Williams Institute is that 0.6 percent of Americans identify as TG. That's one in 167: sixty times as many! Of course all these people (or their counterparts) were there all the time. They just weren't as visible, that's all. But from the perception of people who fear their "growth" and see it as a threat, this increasing visibility may seem only to confirm their fears.

The only remedy for this is more education--though I'm afraid "education" only works on those willing to be taught!

But there is another aspect: the laughter and ridicule that often greets crossdressers of every kind. If somebody "passes" well, that may not occur. When it does, it's hard to know how to counter it, because it's only human nature! We naturally laugh at anything we see as incongruous, and regard as "absurd." A small child will laugh spontaneously at an image of a cat that barks, or a dog that goes "Meow." Is it a dat or a cog? Our brains are programmed to classify things, to know what we're dealing with. Is it harmless, useful, or a threat? If anything "doesn't fit" with what we know, that's a problem.

When it comes to sex, it's even more primal. It's been wisely observed that "a person's sex is the first thing we notice... and the last thing we forget!" I don't doubt this has been instilled into us by evolution. If a person's appearance and demeanor gives conflicting signals about their sex, some people are thrown for a loop. They're afflicted with cognitive dissonance. And if what they're perceiving seems incongruous, the urge to laugh comes naturally--even if it's "insensitive" or inappropriate.

That's one likely aspect of that Father's Day get-together. It's quite possible, as Helen and others suggested, that your kids aren't so prejudiced after all, and their response was cued by the peer pressure of other adults. I've noticed myself in different contexts how some people can be cruel in the company of others, but decent human beings if we get them alone. However, the role of humor is a factor in itself. Everybody likes a good laugh. As the old saying goes: "Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and you weep alone." So if everybody else is laughing, it's hard to "get serious." To pour cold water on their mirth, to be a "wet blanket," a "party pooper" who's spoiling their fun.

Your kids may not be so unsympathetic after all. But I do want to point out that it always will take "work" to educate people and change their attitudes toward traits like transgenderism. I'm afraid some people labor under the illusion that "intolerance" is somehow "taught," that if only that didn't happen, humans would by default be "naturally tolerant" of others who are different. Which is not to deny that some people do teach intolerance. But I'm afraid the notion that we're "naturally tolerant" by default is wishful thinking. On the contrary, human nature makes many of us automatically suspicious--or contemptuous, or derisive, or hostile at times--of anything unfamiliar or "different" from the norm. It's bound to be an uphill battle to conquer those tendencies with regard to transgenderism and other things many people are unfamiliar with and don't understand. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio..."

To this end, it's good to ask questions like the one you did: "what if your kid came to you and said they were trans or crossdressed would you disown them?" That takes the discussion in a new and different direction, without putting a damper on their humor. It prompts them to actually think.

I would be careful of any criticism that puts people on the defensive. They don't like to be told they're "bad" for thinking or feeling whatever they do, or simply for enjoying themselves. I very much doubt that blunt confrontation changes many hearts and minds. People resent it, and dismiss what anyone challenging them has to say. That's the reason we have such dangerous political divisiveness today, with both sides throwing insults at one another and few people arriving at any mutual understanding. But slip the wedge of reason in gradually, from a sideways angle--a painless hypodermic, not a dreaded stake to the heart--and we can pry many people away from their needless fears, ignorance and hostility.

One reason I'm so much in favor of freedom of speech is that people like that out themselves as bigots which allows you to know who your friends really are and lets you take the necessary precautions.

And this:
by Marianne S

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The only remedy for this is more education--though I'm afraid "education" only works on those willing to be taught!

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It's just my personal opinion, but I feel the trans/CD community is largely an unknown - and perhaps people fear the unknown.

I'm sorry for the reaction on your Father's Day celebration. Maybe someday the participants of the conversation will be sorry for the words they used.

EDIT: It might be that in the past, CDing was done in secret so it was largely unknown to the general population.

I know I'm coming into this conversation late but yes people fear the unknown or at least I did when it came to my husband's sexuality and crossing dressing. When he told me I was terrified that things would go somewhere I was not prepared to go to. I immediately thought he was going to want a sex change or to dress like a woman all the time. I racked myself with worry over nothing but my own thoughts. I talked to him many time and he assured me none of my fears were going to happen. It wasn't until I talked to other crossdressers on this site that I realized this thing my husband does not change who he is. He's still the man I fell in love with. I just get more of him now. I get to know the whole of him. Which not everyone gets that. It's truly special. I hope whatever is going on gets better and that everyone involved gets to a better place.

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Originally Posted by Ericka_d

My grandma who is 85 or so. Is very transphobic. On top of being a very bitter old lady. If I didn't live with her. She would never know. The stuff she has said to me. I use to just let it roll off my back, but its gotten a lot worst. In the last few months.

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I would not pass up an opportunity to confront bigotry at any age. Elders should not be given a pass because of age. My wife's non-biological grandfather was a rabid anti...take your choice. Race and color and sexual orientation. All of it. He had two men who lived together across the street from. Each morning they kissed good bye as one went off to work. One was always attired as a woman. He also railed against African-Americans, Mexicans.

One day he was shooting pool with me and my father-in-law. He was in his late seventies by then. He was leaning on his cue stick when he thoughtfully said his hatred and bias was wrong. He should not be saying bad things about others. I don't know if he was making amends with his maker or just coming to a realization everyone was just people like him.

Years later, I told my wife about his amends and the conversation. My wife just lit into me. She had been afraid for all those intervening years that her grandfather was destined to go to hell for his hatred. It had always weighed upon her.

So, it is possible an elderly person or any one can realize their hatred is wrong and make amends. Make the effort to confront any discrimination for any reason. What if the conversation had turned to Africans or other people of color in England? Would you confront that or give them a pass on that too?

Sometime you gotta be careful it seems like their is a Spirit of hate infecting the whole earth

Just got to add two comments:

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Originally Posted by char GG

It's just my personal opinion, but I feel the trans/CD community is largely an unknown - and perhaps people fear the unknown..

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Darn right! You bet they do!

And on a somewhat (but not entirely) different topic:

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Originally Posted by GretchenM

It happened to me with a sister-in-law and her daughter-in-law. What was it about? A messenger bag that looks faintly like a purse that carry my stuff in. "Bad influence on the kids." B.S. It really hurts when someone does that, especially when they put on that they are so accepting of others. They are, provided the others meet their standards for behavior. I confronted them and their tales of all the terrible things that could happen to me if I deviate from the narrow definition of what a male should look like. Goodness! Open discrimination and they don't even recognize it.

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I apologize for not knowing whether you're "out" to these relatives or not, which could make a difference to their perception of the "influence" you're wielding. But honestly, a "messenger bag that looks faintly like a purse"? What on earth is their issue?? They're bonkers!

It's incredible to see the fanatical insistence some people have on others remaining in their stereotyped "gender roles," and how bent out of shape they get when others dare to venture outside those roles, even in the slightest way.

Some of it is understandable. After sixty years of "second wave feminism," it's no wonder that many people are worried that women are "losing their femininity," becoming "less nurturing" in ways we all need, abandoning their husbands more often, not staying home to play with their children (as my own beloved mother did)--or symbolically even (gasp!)--wearing pants!--as few women did a lifetime ago. I won't go on about that! All I have to say is that such fears were grounded in realistic perceptions of loss. Needless to say, much of that objection comes from men.

But when it comes to MEN stepping outside of their customary gender roles, just watch some people go shrieking up the wall in horror!--many of them women! And for the pettiest of reasons--none of them having the least bit to do with "crossdressing." Like that "messenger bag." The threat of "loss of masculinity" in men seems to terrify some people more even than the "loss of femininity" in women.

I've seen some of this attitude myself. It was partly (though not the only) cause of my breakup up with an earlier girlfriend. Though I have to admit, it was nothing so trivial or absurd as that "messenger bag." What hangups some neurotic people have! This thread isn't the right place for me to discuss it, that's all. Maybe I'll get around to discussing it on another thread, together with this imaginary nonsense about "male privilege" as it relates to the real reason why "men can't crossdress." In the meantime I certainly sympathize with your difficulties about that "messenger bag."

Incidentally the reasons for carrying a bag, as opposing to "putting things in our pockets like a man," may be worth dissecting too from a gender viewpoint. I confess I love to analyze things in detail.

For the meantime, I'll leave you with the memory of a man I'll call "Henry." I worked with him for many years. He is a world expert on transaction processing and computer security. We worked together in the field of international standards. His skills were respected by all, despite being a nonconformist. Where others wore business suits and ties to a meeting, "Henry" wore jeans and a "Mickey Mouse" T-shirt. And yes, he carried a "purse." This is commoner among some Europeans, especially French guys I've known, than Americans. Mind you, Henry's "purse" was masculine enough. Brown leather, it looked like a binocular case. But what the heck! A big hefty guy with a paunch born of good living, nobody would ever have called him "unmasculine" in spite of his purse. So what price prejudice? I love a good purse. In a way I can't explain, it's an affirmation of the self. Carry your purse with pride!

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

I would not pass up an opportunity to confront bigotry at any age. Elders should not be given a pass because of age. My wife's non-biological grandfather was a rabid anti...take your choice. Race and color and sexual orientation. All of it. He had two men who lived together across the street from. Each morning they kissed good bye as one went off to work. One was always attired as a woman. He also railed against African-Americans, Mexicans.

One day he was shooting pool with me and my father-in-law. He was in his late seventies by then. He was leaning on his cue stick when he thoughtfully said his hatred and bias was wrong. He should not be saying bad things about others. I don't know if he was making amends with his maker or just coming to a realization everyone was just people like him.

Years later, I told my wife about his amends and the conversation. My wife just lit into me. She had been afraid for all those intervening years that her grandfather was destined to go to hell for his hatred. It had always weighed upon her.

So, it is possible an elderly person or any one can realize their hatred is wrong and make amends. Make the effort to confront any discrimination for any reason. What if the conversation had turned to Africans or other people of color in England? Would you confront that or give them a pass on that too?

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Some of the stuff she has told me, and called me. I can't post here, and probably would be serious enough. To where she could be in serious trouble with the law.

I know she cares about me, and I do care about her. Its just she dosn't have to keep on me about me being trans. No matter what I do. She twist everything around. So she can mock me being trans. Say I went fishing, and when I get home. She will ask if I wore my bikini. So I could attract the male attention. Last week we were taking about me moving out, and she asked why. I told her because its time. She responded by saying. So I can dressup, and have all sorts of men over. So I can have wild sex parties.

The problem is this. I'm date only females. I've been in a relationship for 3.5 years, and she has met her. The wife as I call her. Is ok with me.

I've learned she will never change. Thats ok. I'm very open minded on some things, and very closed minded on others. I don't expect everyone like me for being trans. There is a reason why family, and friends are afterthoughts in my life.

Love your comments, Marianne. You have gone very deep in your discussion and I admire that. Very thought provoking for sure.

On the Nature vs. Nurture aspect, it seems that those who intensively study this behavior pattern have seem to have settled on the "it's both working together" explanation. Your genetics sets a generalized basic heritable environment that is sort of like a predisposition that may or may not be triggered. Sort of like handedness which is a predisposition. If you have two hands the genetic predisposition is triggered, but if you are unfortunately born with only one hand and that is not the one that fits the predisposition, the predisposition is never triggered into activity. But as is true of almost all predispositions, they only come with an "On" button and once that button has been pushed there is no way to turn it off. So environmental influences creates this shift in gender identity and association and where it goes from there depends on the particular impact on each person's sense of self. The vague genetic boundaries are still working in the background, but they are effectively flexible. A predisposition may change and evolve, but it doesn't go away.

In the gender mosaic theory it creates a mosaic of male-like, female-like, and intermediate configurations in the person's neural networks that regulate the sense of self to be a blend of male and female traits and characteristics that changes over time as a result of new learning and experiences. Those changes occur due to brain plasticity which is the unique ability of the brain to rewire itself to adapt to new experiences and learning that modifies the sense of self so they are always as consistent as possible. Unfortunately, if you are consciously locked into a particular concept that you believe is not changeable that is the standard by which everything is judged. "You can't be feminine because you are male. Period. Men don't carry bags so be a good boy and lose the bag so people will view you as you really are." Or my wife who says, "Why can't you just be yourself?" To which I answer, "What if this is myself and I am being myself? Look around. We are all different. So, by your argument everybody is not being themselves. It can't be both ways. And that is exactly what neuroscience has found - we are all different and sometimes REALLY different. And it is OK and normal."

Unfortunately, most people cling to the concept of the gender binary where gender is defined by your sex and is not supposed to change or deviate from that which existed at the beginning. So, someone who shows some degree of cross-gender behavior must be defective because their sex has not changed and everybody's sex determines the destiny of your gender. Result? An Us vs. Them mind set that is natural when a person encounters something different and does not recognize as being normal because of the person's own sense of self and thoughts about everybody else's sense of self and what it should be according to the rigid standard. In my discussion with my sister-in-law she kept pointing out the terrible things that could happen to someone who deviates from the tried and true sex=gender static thinking. I pointed out that there is an easy solution to that. Don't go to places where those kinds of things can happen because of the intolerance of the people that are there. Don't go into a Hell's Angels biker bar cross-dressed. I pointed out that women apply that selective rule all the time - there are places where they will not go, especially alone. Just apply the same sensibility. Notice that the thought that cross-dressed person is assumed to still be of the masculine gender because you can't change that and so even expressing feminine the person will do the same things they would do if purely male/masculine and not cross-dressed. My sister-in-law's view was that I am male and that is all there is to it and the clothes don't change that. The fact is, your sense of self is not immutable. Even hers. Thinking that is clinging to traditional concepts of gender that go back thousands of years and is a matter of destiny. Unfortunately, the world is not a static place - it changes and we have to change with it or perhaps we will die.

This same kind of thinking was probably engaged in during Vicki's experience - no recognition that the gender concept that has existed for so long just might be wrong in some respects. The possibility that variability might be built into us because it provides a means to adapt to changes in perspective as a result of changes in environment. That is a good survival tool for us to have because the world is not the same everywhere. Diversity aids in the survival of the species. And in the case of humans, our survival does not exist in our superior strength like a lion or a tiger, but in our superior intelligence and our adaptability to new situations. I have found that people who expect everything to be simple and direct also often have trouble adapting to new situations. Not always, but more than I would expect. That is why they tend to cling to the traditional - it is safe. They face the unknown (variable gender in this case) by trying to force it to follow the traditional concept even though naturally gender can't do that because it is so individualized, even in them.

There's so much prejudice, hate and bigotry going around now days, at least in the US. People have beliefs that they hold on to tightly. It's just as risky to come out as a conservative as it is a crossdresser. Being conservative on most issues and liberal on others, I would lose pretty much all of my friends and family if I were completely honest about myself and my views. It really is a shame that we can't be ourselves without being shamed by others.

Speaking as a U.K. member, I admit it is an interesting niche. Saying nothing about my own political affiliations, coming out as a conservative in most public sector environments would often be an invitation for ridicule and hostility by the predominantly left leaning in those environments and yet despite the LGBT enthusiasm of those same political affiliates, crossdressing finds itself as something of a poor relation when compared with the tolerance and enthusiasm of homosexuality and trans people.

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Originally Posted by donnalee

One reason I'm so much in favor of freedom of speech is that people like that out themselves as bigots which allows you to know who your friends really are and lets you take the necessary precautions.

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I totally agree with this!

I would rather know who my enemies are, up front, than try to figure out who is hiding behind the mask of political correctness!

At a PRIDE event last year, I was advised against going to a certain establishment, because it wad ONLY during PTIDE month, that they actually welcomed LGBTQ+ people. At all other times, they were either indifferent, or openly hostile to "our kind". It was just a ruse to get LGBTQ+ dollars in their coffers.

Cdinmd, You are so right. Every one has their likes and dislikes. We can't force anyone to like us. "A person convinced AGAINST their will, is of the same opinion still." None of us is without faults, and prej

idices

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Ressie, Thanks for sharing that. I am conservative on most issues, but never have treated any other race badly, nor people who are very different. I only despise violence. The inner heart of a person is most important, but humans get carried away by emotions out of control, and media hysteria, when normally they would be at peace. We all need to practice self control, and live and let live.

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Rhonda, You are spot on right. Powerful forces wanting to get everyone offended and raging and at each others' throats. Very sad. It is a spirit in the air now. We all need to be more careful more than ever before. It is trying to get us all to hate and destroy one another, even over trivial things. If this does not stop, well, it's all over for us all/