Are we naive about the signals we send

The question has come up about what we, as CD's, are looking for in posting our pictures, dressed, en femme. We of course when we go out dressed, are also seen, at least in some contexts, as looking for something. We are trying, with our appearance, to symbolize the feminine gender. And I emphasize as the relevant term, symbol. We are looking for reassurance that in some way, the symbolic femininity that we assume is relevant to our inner nature. Not necessarily anything more, it would seem to me.
But this is often taken as a sign of something we do not mean. There is a difference between a symbol and a sign. (The term sex symbol would appear to be a confusion of this difference, a or at least a running together of the two meanings.)
For some, the sign of feminine attire is a call to action, a hot button, and means we are looking for something, something perhaps sexual. A lot of cheap and trashy tv programs have created the expectation that cd'ing is a an advertisement for sex, and these programs, and even high class documentaries seem to imply that CD'ing is associated with prositution, or at least cruising.
Women, (GG's), on the other hand, have had many experiences growing up, which have warned them of what sort of a signal the appearance of feminine gender, the symbol, has meant to some men. They have become cautious about strange men, and ambiguous situations. They are not as trusting,
Does this mean we are naive in our apparently more trusting behaviour?

[SIZE=4]I do indeed send out signals when I go out. My goal is to represent my interpretation of what I find attractive feminine-wise. I dress for myself, not for men or other women. If I happen to spark an attraction from men or women then I know that I have done a good job of presenting my desired role.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]We are mostly seeking acceptance as women, and in many cases a personal interpretation of what a woman should look and act like can be interpretted totally differently. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=4]Prolonged dressing seems to lead to an acceptance of the appearance as a norm and the "thrill" may appear to be reducing, but the inner satisfaction that cannot be seen drives most of us. [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]I have also given up trying to make sense out of this lifestyle, I just go with it and hit it with everything I have![/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]Your sis,[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]Tami[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

Well nothings as it appears any more... And the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"... Though It may not come off that way.. My wife says I'm the queen of mixed signals ... Dahhhhh...

I agree. I am most definitely NOT seeking sex with men when I dress, but instead seek to reach an inner satisfaction with an outward appearance. If my appearance, remote as the possiblity may seem to me, causes a sexual desire in a man at any time, that's fine. It doesn't mean I'm advertising for it. I see many women on a daily basis that awaken some level of sexual desire in me. It never means that I'm actually going to have sex with them. If my appearance pleases a man, then I've accomplished the task of successfully appearing as an atrractive woman. I'm flattered, but I'm not ever going to act out any kind of sexual liason with a man as a result. I advertise for sex no more than any woman does when she makes herself pretty. And while women may, at times, be trying to appear sexually attractive to a man, I'm only trying to please myself and others who appreciate the effort, not a potential sexual suitor.

Oh, and another thing. I post my pictures here in order to display my feminine image to a receptive audience who appreciates crossdressing for what it is, and who knows the effort that goes into it. Nothing more.

I always hear about the questions or "answers" to our actions.That we do this for this or that reason and were "all the same".Its a given that what we do will attract attention in some form.Some want it and some dont.The expession of my inner self is my creation and my way of being me.People need to open their minds and think for themselves instead of takeing what they see or read as the absolute truth of the whole picture.We are not all the same and sometimes the reason is just being yourself.Posting pictures and things can be nothing more than saying,here I am.I exist to those who cant see me and this is who I am.Not to attract men or whatever other reason they can come up with.

We are men, we know what men like. We know what signals we are sending based on how we dress.
If it is someone like me who normally wears long skirt and my tops don't reveal anything[as I have well built masculine shoulders, arms, chest] then probably very few men are going to look and think "I wouldn't mind hitting that!"
And I know this cause I am male

On the other hand, if it is a CD who dresses like a hoochie mamma in a mini and slinky top, she has got to know men are going to want to "hit that". And that might be her intention, to turn men on with her dressing..

Us CDs are not naive about what is sexy and what is neutral.

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Originally Posted by Beth-Lock

The question has come up about what we, as CD's, are looking for in posting our pictures, dressed, en femme. We of course when we go out dressed, are also seen, at least in some contexts, as looking for something. We are trying, with our appearance, to symbolize the feminine gender. And I emphasize as the relevant term, symbol. We are looking for reassurance that in some way, the symbolic femininity that we assume is relevant to our inner nature. Not necessarily anything more, it would seem to me.
But this is often taken as a sign of something we do not mean. There is a difference between a symbol and a sign. (The term sex symbol would appear to be a confusion of this difference, a or at least a running together of the two meanings.)
For some, the sign of feminine attire is a call to action, a hot button, and means we are looking for something, something perhaps sexual. A lot of cheap and trashy tv programs have created the expectation that cd'ing is a an advertisement for sex, and these programs, and even high class documentaries seem to imply that CD'ing is associated with prositution, or at least cruising.
Women, (GG's), on the other hand, have had many experiences growing up, which have warned them of what sort of a signal the appearance of feminine gender, the symbol, has meant to some men. They have become cautious about strange men, and ambiguous situations. They are not as trusting,
Does this mean we are naive in our apparently more trusting behaviour?

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Whoa! great question Beth-Lock. I'd have to say yes we do even if we don't know it at the time. I dress to please me in attire that I(as a Man) find sexually attractive. It's no wonder that other Men would think along these same lines. Let's face it, there are few Wives that would go out in public with FMP's, short skirts and big hair! Well I've seen some but it's rare.

Three things I'm getting from the original post...

#1...when we dress we seek validation of our appearence being female thus we are female....

#2- how we dress.....some dress sexy/trashy...

Some dress our age or in some cases matronly manner...either by being Older" or perhaps dressing like our mothers dressed at he same age...

Some dress (I'm one) as I see other women dress that I find most appealing....

others simply dress for whatever reason style or what is availalble to put on....

Finally there are those of you out there that can pull it all together and have style, (chic) grace (classy female) "appearence and passability"....and the rest of us can only "wish"....

Then there's all of the above and none of the above....

Me I do it because I am bring out my female side of self and try to take on the appearence that Steph likes to look....nothign more and nothing less....

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Originally Posted by DD's Girl

Posting pictures and things can be nothing more than saying,here I am.I exist to those who cant see me and this is who I am.

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Yes! My sentiments exactly. After so long not being able to do so (I've only myself to blame) to post things on the site (no pictures yet) is simply for the reason quoted above.

Here I am and I'm the one telling you who I am.

Sarah...

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Originally Posted by MlleErin

Us CDs are not naive about what is sexy and what is neutral.

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You reckon? :D

IME, yes, VERY frequently. Many CDs are used to thinking like men, not like women - they've not really been viewed as 'prey' before. Reality tends to kick in after a while, and they learn.. :heehee:

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Originally Posted by tamarav

[SIZE=4]I do indeed send out signals when I go out. My goal is to represent my interpretation of what I find attractive feminine-wise. I dress for myself, not for men or other women. If I happen to spark an attraction from men or women then I know that I have done a good job of presenting my desired role.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]We are mostly seeking acceptance as women, and in many cases a personal interpretation of what a woman should look and act like can be interpretted totally differently. [/SIZE]

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Right on.:cheer:

Here is something that might be interesting... I "joined" an online group at 'meetups.com'. I posted that I was a CD'er looking to meet others like me. All of the responses I got were men trying to "be with me". You should see some of the emails! Although I'm very flattered, why is it because I dress like a woman do I actually want to be a woman? Don't get me wrong... For those of you that do! But, I don't. Sometimes I like being a man, sometimes I like acting like a woman. But, it seems that the first thought of many men (at least the ones I've encountered on the net) is that I want sex with someone. I don't dress because of sex in it's physical nature. I think I dress because I love women and I love them so much that I sometimes like to look like one. Is that bad? Crossdressing doesn't mean "I want to screw someone".

Carry on.

[SIZE=4]A good question posed here, and will contribute my personal answer, which may be far different from others and especially the male crossdressers who I must admit I don't fully understand but love them anyway.

I am myself my person first and foremost female, I don't think I have ever thought like a man in my life. I always knew I was different somehow from other men.

So in my appearance, I seek to be just another woman, and in that I seem to succeed very well. I have the Classy look, the Casual look, I go both as redhead (my natural color) and blonde(wanted to see if blondes really do have more fun or if it just makes me dumber!) and have been able to go into mixed pools with my bikini top and bottom (panties underneath to hold my parts up on my pubes.

The gratification I get from being called beautiful, sexy, gorgeous, pretty knows no bounds, I am so happy I could fly.
I know I get more compliments from strangers, men and women than any of my wives did. (WARNING A VAIN STATEMENT COMING) and yes, I AM prettier than them.

So I guess I send out signals - (Hey I am here, look at me),
or - Here I am just another woman.

I love the way guys treat me, and the women's secret smiles to each other.

Funny thing to me is that I seem to be more attractive and approachable braless and in a tanktop than in my gorgeous outfits with my 44D bras. Not understanding that in the least.

I think I avoid the "Hey I want sex" look and actions, since I am usually with my girlfriend, Cynthia.

We are always accepted everywhere as two women, but before she got her camisole and breast forms she was called Sir a lot since she is nearly flat chested. That hasn't happened since then.

I am also very aware of the men checking me out (Don't I love it!)

Lainie
[/SIZE]

No, I'm not naive at all. For that very reason I don't want to attract undue attention, and a) don't go out in public, and b) if I did go out I'd make sure I wasn't dressed in a way such as to cause men to chase me.

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Originally Posted by JennyS.

Although I'm very flattered, why is it because I dress like a woman do I actually want to be a woman? Don't get me wrong... For those of you that do! But, I don't. Sometimes I like being a man, sometimes I like acting like a woman.

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Why would you expect that, if you try to appear like a woman, people wouldn't try to treat you like one? :strugglin

Now, sadly, you can empathise more with what womankind has to put up with.

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Why would you expect that, if you try to appear like a woman, people wouldn't try to treat you like one? :strugglin

Now, sadly, you can empathise more with what womankind has to put up with.

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Okay... I understand what you are saying. But, what I was trying to say is that "why is that when I dress as a woman, some men think I want to have sex with them"? That is not why I do this. Even when I explain to them in email form that I don't want to be with a man... They still send me dirty pictures? I don't want my hobby to be naughty. Understand?

Jenny, your hobby isn't naughty; the men who hit on you are. It is an unfortunate fact of life for us. They are conditioned to see us as sex objects, just as they see GGs. You're doing the right thing by ignoring them or telling them off if they persist.

For me the answer it no.

Being that I grew up around allot of women I do know what not to do. When I am dressed I not only do I try my best to look as presentable as a woman, I also understand that once I step out my home I put on every concern that most women have. Now this is only my view and I do try to follow the same rules as any woman and once I figured out that you do not see to many women dressed to the nines at 4 am at the store on an early Saturday or Sunday morning I stopped going out during the late night and started conducting my business during the day.

Interaction with men while dressed has not been a problem and I have been asked about my "Husband" several times! And I do not even try to gain the attention of men and or women.

We cannot help sending out "signals" especially if we look good en femme. It is good to question our own motives though. Most of us say we are heterosexual and want nothing to do with men or attracting them. It does come with the turf however and whether we are interested or not, we need to be prepared to deal with that. Sometimes, we enjoy the attention in spite of ourselves but that is just the nature of the "beast". My advice is just to enjoy being ourselves, feelings and intentions notwithstanding. It's all about experiencing the feelings in any case.:)

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Originally Posted by JennyS.

what I was trying to say is that "why is that when I dress as a woman, some men think I want to have sex with them"?

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Being the father of a daughter who sometimes tries to meet nice guys thru various sites I can tell you that this is exactly how a genetic woman is treated. I would say that over half her responses end up like yours. Even the ones she ends up talking to on the phone have started out seeming normal. Then the next thing she knows they don't understand why she doesn't want to have phone sex on the 2nd phone call! It's not you, it's them. Unfortunetly, many young guys are pigs and many of them don't learn any better as they age.

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Originally Posted by Sally24

Being the father of a daughter who sometimes tries to meet nice guys thru various sites I can tell you that this is exactly how a genetic woman is treated.

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That's precisely what I was trying to say..

What this means to me, is partly, that strangers are more likely to act like jerks than people you know better, and I guess on the Internet, a lot of the strangers could not be more strange.
It is back to the old problem, 'Where do you meet nice people?' and giving off sexy signals in a public area, tends to increase the jerk percentage, dramatically. I guess GG's already knew that. Maybe we are naive, if that is not what we are looking for, and who is looking for a jerk anyway?

The acceptance of the 'signals' argument is sexist. It perpetuates and enshrines the vicitimisation of women, the second-class status of women.

It's a common excuse for rape. It's allowing women's self expression to be curtailed by imposition of unjustifiable consequence upon it.

It is the slippery slope that leads to the burka (don't blame islam for the burka by the way, it's existed in many cultures and Islam borrowed it from other cultures including christian ones!).

I mean this quite seriously. Everyone needs to take a look at feminism for a moment. There are a lot of places where it is vital for CDs to consider (just skip over the 2nd wave transphobic feminists).

If we allow ourselves to curtail our expression, if we support/encourage women doing so, then we are contributing to the reprression and oppression of women.

When an Australian muslim cleric referred to women wearing quite common clothing as 'uncovered meat' and that if you leave 'uncovered meat' out and some cats eat it you cannot blame the cats. He was referring to a series of gang rapes of women by youths from the Australian muslim community.

Now I know good muslims equally outraged by those statements.

The point is that we cannot, must not, allow what someone is wearing to be construed as an excuse for assault or considered an advertisement for sex.

This 'signals' nonsense needs to be stamped out amongst men and women.

It's a false notion. People wear miniskirts for a variety of reasons, not just advertising sex. Peiople wearing 'sexy' clothes are still not 'asking for it'.

People dress sexilly for a lot of reasons.

People are attacked for a lot too. Almost never does what someone is wearing have anything to do with that. Society needs to start maturing and dropping it's false illusions and it's excuses.

If we don't we'll end up in mao-suits or burkas!

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Well nothings as it appears any more... And the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"... Though It may not come off that way.. My wife says I'm the queen of mixed signals ... Dahhhhh...

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That surely sums it all up, Karren!

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Originally Posted by DD's Girl

we do this for this or that reason and were "all the same".Its a given that what we do will attract attention in some form.Some want it and some dont.The expession of my inner self is my creation and my way of being me.

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And it is those who choose to decide that our creation isn't what they want it to be that create hostile situations! Or . . .

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Originally Posted by Arianna Daniels

We cannot help sending out "signals" especially if we look good en femme. It is good to question our own motives though. Most of us say we are heterosexual and want nothing to do with men or attracting them. It does come with the turf however and whether we are interested or not, we need to be prepared to deal with that. Sometimes, we enjoy the attention in spite of ourselves but that is just the nature of the "beast". My advice is just to enjoy being ourselves, feelings and intentions notwithstanding. It's all about experiencing the feelings in any case.:)

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Originally Posted by Sally24

Being the father of a daughter who sometimes tries to meet nice guys thru various sites I can tell you that this is exactly how a genetic woman is treated. I would say that over half her responses end up like yours. Even the ones she ends up talking to on the phone have started out seeming normal. Then the next thing she knows they don't understand why she doesn't want to have phone sex on the 2nd phone call! It's not you, it's them. Unfortunetly, many young guys are pigs and many of them don't learn any better as they age.

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As a father of three young ladies all in their 20's, I have to agree with your assessment!

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

The acceptance of the 'signals' argument is sexist. It perpetuates and enshrines the vicitimisation of women, the second-class status of women.

It's a common excuse for rape. It's allowing women's self expression to be curtailed by imposition of unjustifiable consequence upon it.

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I dress for myself alone just to feel comfortable in my skin. I too have always felt different. I love feminine clothes and routines it takes to keep looking feminine. I often wear light makeup and lipstick when I'm out and wear androgynous clothing unless I'm home where I gravitate to full femme clothing appropriate for my age.
:hugs:
Margot

I think my point was that femininity is a symbol, and should not be taken as a sign.

Unfair !

Men in dirty work clothes, uniforms, business casual, suits and ties all cruise for sex....why single me (Enfemme) out ?

Beth, I think some CDs may not be conscious of their courtship impulses. Some of us are actively courting relationship or "a little spice."

Then there is large minority...or majority, who simply "wanna have fun".

Then there is a small minority who are "working girls."

There is enough going on for anyone to tell any story about CDs that they want to tell, and have a little truth to hang their story on.

I dress for fun only. I returned all passes with "Roberta doesn't do sex", and I received a few polite and genuine offers, along with the crass. I got the nice offers in "nice clubs" and the crass ones in "meat markets". No Surprises there.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

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Originally Posted by Beth-Lock

I think my point was that femininity is a symbol, and should not be taken as a sign.

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But IT IS. A sign is exactly what a symbol is. You have to learn to deal with it?

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Originally Posted by RobertaFermina

Unfair !

Men in dirty work clothes, uniforms, business casual, suits and ties all cruise for sex....why single me (Enfemme) out ?

Beth, I think some CDs may not be conscious of their courtship impulses. Some of us are actively courting relationship or "a little spice."

Then there is large minority...or majority, who simply "wanna have fun".

Then there is a small minority who are "working girls."

There is enough going on for anyone to tell any story about CDs that they want to tell, and have a little truth to hang their story on.

I dress for fun only. I returned all passes with "Roberta doesn't do sex", and I received a few polite and genuine offers, along with the crass. I got the nice offers in "nice clubs" and the crass ones in "meat markets". No Surprises there.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

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It's a shame that a lot of men only think of women for sex. Women are so much more. After all, they (the men) wouldn't even be here if it weren't for women carrying them for 9-months.
I dress mainly to please myself, but also to represent women and CD's as well, so I always try to dress well.
Sure, men will always flirt. (Even the married ones.)
Sometimes it's harmless, but there are a few that are so crass that they deserve a good slap across the face to wake them up.
I have found the men in my area don't seem to notice the difference. Of the ones that do, a lot don't seem to care that I'm biologically male, while some are completely outraged.
Fortunately, most accept me for who I really am.
The same is true with women as well. Some absolutely hate it, while others are OK with it.
While I'm not out looking for sex with anyone at this time in my life, (I've still a lot to go through.) I do have to point it out to some and say ''NO!''

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

The acceptance of the 'signals' argument is sexist. It perpetuates and enshrines the victimisation of women, the second-class status of women.

It's a common excuse for rape. It's allowing women's self expression to be curtailed by imposition of unjustifiable consequence upon it.

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:iagree:

one of my first outings-some 40 plus years ago in vienna austria where i grew up-was to a formal ball in a ballgown with all the trappings.what an exhiliarating experience!!
but i realized as well how naive i was.i circulated among the crowd of hundreds of people dancing with members of my party only(they knew).i was checked out by horny men all night until i felt like a piece of meat at the butcher.i realized then what ggs go through and that i was guilty of doing the same myself.
what i gained from it at a tender age was a very healthy respect for womanhood .

Excellent post, battybattybats (great name). Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish. Most of us just want to express our feminine sides, but it is assumed that by dressing like women we are cruising. That is just ignorance and what women have put up with forever. In my opinion, the problem is not naivety about our signals, but naivety about how they are being interpreted. Unfortunately, a large percentage of men are idiots who view women as sex objects and CDs as fags. Some are very dangerous. And beyond that, most people in general don't have the least understanding of crossdressing and why we do it. My advice is be alert, be safe, and don't expect to be understood. Express yourself freely with those who are open to you and don't waste your time with fools who don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"

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Bullseye.

Though I have not reread it for a long time, I was thinking of the distinction between sign and symbol made by the philosopher, Suzanne K. Langer.

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Originally Posted by karezza

Excellent post, battybattybats (great name). Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish. Most of us just want to express our feminine sides, but it is assumed that by dressing like women we are cruising. That is just ignorance and what women have put up with forever. In my opinion, the problem is not naivety about our signals, but naivety about how they are being interpreted. Unfortunately, a large percentage of men are idiots who view women as sex objects and CDs as fags. Some are very dangerous. And beyond that, most people in general don't have the least understanding of crossdressing and why we do it. My advice is be alert, be safe, and don't expect to be understood. Express yourself freely with those who are open to you and don't waste your time with fools who don't get it.

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Thanks.
Though I don't agree about most men being idiots, rather they are deeply indoctrinated. Taught to be that way, punished with violence both emotional psychological and physical untill they are that way.

It's the truth most (not all) feminists ignore and much of society ignores. The worst aspects of male society are created, a self perpetuating system of brutalisation with each generation truamatising the next in the same way they once were.

Homophobia, sexism and racism are essential components of this and as we have seen the eroding and unraveling if these we have seen the eroding and unraveling of traditional male culture but it's still pervasive. Each genertion still has to run a gauntlet of indoctrination and abuse with those who are caring, compassionate or who can be labelled in any way as gay or girly with that being flung against them.

Boys suffer emotional abuse, are taught to repress their feellings with the exception of anger and aggression.

It's not as bad as it was but it's still there. Boys are taught to treat women that way, to think of women that way. We must undo that teaching in a constructive and positive way. We need a revolution in the male world of western society even greater than the one that feminism created in the female one. One that will undo the very glorification of the modes of thinking that support homophobia, transphobia, sexism, racism and a great many of the worlds ills by striking at the source rather than the symptoms.

Men need to be freed from male stereotypes and we need to decry male stereotypes with as much or more than was done when women decried female stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Well nothings as it appears any more... And the only signal I try to send is "what a well dressed, cute person"... Though It may not come off that way.. My wife says I'm the queen of mixed signals ... Dahhhhh...

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Ok you have me curious.... Does your wife actually use the word "Queen" or is that you paraphrasing. Even though my wife is mostly supportive she has never used a feminine description of me. I think I'm jealous.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

When an Australian muslim cleric referred to women wearing quite common clothing as 'uncovered meat' and that if you leave 'uncovered meat' out and some cats eat it you cannot blame the cats. He was referring to a series of gang rapes of women by youths from the Australian muslim community.

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I have heard this type of monkey poo way to many times during televised or written interviews about Muslim women's rights. I have nothing but scorn for the "faithful/devoted/holy" who victimize women and then blame the women for their own failings. This Australian cleric has it right in one aspect, and is unintentionally insulting his own people in the process. He makes reference to cats. Only animals cannot control their baser urges. One should NEVER blame the women for your own lack of self control. That just P!$$es me off.

I like the attention.
I'd rather hang out with women, the places i hang out, it's easier to make friends in clothes that show off how I feel.
I don't mind being chased a little, but unless I'm wearing heels, I won't be caught:)

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

... men .. are deeply indoctrinated. Taught to be that way, punished with violence both emotional psychological and physical until they are that way.

It's the truth most (not all) feminists ignore and much of society ignores. The worst aspects of male society are created, a self perpetuating system of brutalisation with each generation truamatising the next in the same way they once were.
....
Each generation still has to run a gauntlet of indoctrination and abuse with those who are caring, compassionate or who can be labelled in any way as gay or girly with that being flung against them.

Boys suffer emotional abuse, are taught to repress their feellings with the exception of anger and aggression.
....
Men need to be freed from male stereotypes and we need to decry male stereotypes with as much or more than was done when women decried female stereotypes.

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And of course women join in, in the indoctrination, humiliation and emotional abuse. But then women are human, and it is a social thing, dating from a time of rampant casual cruelty in the socialization process.