I wrote "I think most of us all grew up in a situation where as children, we were treated as second class citizens, unless of course you were one of the spoiled brats that threw tantrums and your parents gave you whatever you wanted to calm down; that's pretty much a new phenomenon"
Then:
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Originally Posted by
Ezekiel
You are mixing apples with oranges. But now that you talk about it, imagine the same but being female. Probably worse, more restricted expectations.
The question was if we'd experienced being treated as second class citizens. The answer was yes. Now it's clear that you're just going to try to keep coming up with more things to complain about. I can do that too. If you want, take it to private messaging. I have all the time in the world.
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Women have always had it harder, they always have been restricted and treated as less than equal, even today, thats why its still an issue. Even if its not in your personal experience, trust me they do have it harder. Its on a planetary scale, worse on some places than others, but still an issue everywhere on Earth.
Lets stop with the history lessons. It has nothing to do with today. Or do you also want to argue about how the cro-magnon man treated neanderthals as less than equal? Let's stick to the current state of affairs where we actually live, huh? Women have it harder in some ways, easier in others. Whether it 'evens out' is a matter of opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours, but have no right to tell me mine is wrong and i must change my opinion any more than I have to expect you to do the reverse.
Sexism works both ways. You can read about it here and in the other thread as well.
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Im not even saying that women don't have the advantage on some very specific things, which is also obvious and they have it that way because they fought hard for it in the past, like when they fought hard for being permited to wear trousers. But those very scarce things where they actually have an advantage are not really all that noticeable in the everyday life
Not noticable to who? Maybe you. But then again, when you already have your decision made, you're only going to see what you expect to see, and disregard the rest.
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and of course it does not balance out like some say here using the phrase "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Its not true in this case.
Which case? Besides, it's an observation that one person makes. So whether you see it that way, doesn't mean someone else can't see it the opposite way.
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Patriarchy is still the established order
Yes. However fewer women WANT to fight to be in charge of things. In our current world, you don't just 'get to' be a leader, you have to earn it, and earning it takes a lot of work, aggression, assertiveness, and a willingness to sacrifice many things in order to succeed. Women in a social setting will usually take turns doing things. Men will compete and keep their position until someone takes it from them. Men are simply more competitive in many ways, and are more willing to give up things in order to climb the ladder to success than women are. There are women who are willing to do that, and you do see them as political and business leaders, just not as often, and yes it is because they don't want it as badly because they're less willing to do what's necessary to succeed; the situation is what defines what's necessary to succeed, not the person who wants the position. I often hear women complain that they went to school, they got their degree, then their (law, medicine, accounting, etc..) license, then they want to know why they don't get handed a top job? Because they didn't do what the situation required. That may be working 80 hours a week, kissing the bosses ass on a daily basis, letting him win on the golf course and acting like he really did, or even marrying his ugly nasty daughter (or son, if that's what the boss wants in his next VP). Again, when you want to advance to a position, you have to do whatever is necessary. Women often aren't willing to do that, mostly because they can usually get what they want in life without doing so. Men, however, MUST get to the top to get what they want, or be willing to accept less. A woman can sleep her way to success, riches, and position. A man cannot, so they work harder.
As far as patriarchy and inheriting power and wealth, the Countries that are still ruled by a monarch who hands down his position to a son (or daughter) are slowly disappearing. Why? because of idiots being crowned king, queen, emporer, or idiot despot (yes Kim Jong Un, I'm talking about you) are going out of style because that system doesn't work as reliabley to bring qualified people to rule. I'm not saying the republic system is perfect, but to get elected into office you can't be a complete ass as well as surrounded by them (as much as I didn't like GWB, I do admit that he had some very smart people working with him, Cheney was a friggin genius), while that CAN happen in monarchies, and can be the end of them in one poor generation of fools.
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there is still sexism. Why you deny it?
I don't deny it. But it works both ways.
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Its easy for me to see this and I'm male, yes I'm TG, but male, why is it you don't acknowledge that there is still terrible sexism that damages both, males and females, in their everyday life?
Because I don't like to whine about it. It's common knowledge. And it is gradually changing, but apparently not as fast as you'd like.
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Forgot to add... many complain here about the issue that women are permitted wearing trousers, whereas men are not permitted to wear dresses. Let me ask you this question...Why do you think women can wear "all" they want (which is not entirely the case, but for simplicity),
I never wrote that women can wear 'all' they want, at least, not without any ramifications of doing so. No such thing. Now you're just making stuff up to be argumentative.
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and men are restricted to some things and are looked down upon if they wear clothes such as skirts, dresses, make up (on most cases) and a long list?
Because wearing female clothing commonly results in erroneous assumptions about the male who does it, that he is more likely than not to less reliably behave as our society expects a male to in situations where the safety of others is concerned, whether that be if he's a soldier, defending his female mate, or defending a female in his society that is being attacked; or, less likely to keep doing his job even if he is unhappy doing it. He is considered 'less of a man' by most people. If YOU cannot understand that, perhaps you need to study psychology and sociology a bit more. The fact is, at least in many parts of the civilized world, men and women CAN wear whatever they want, BUT they have to be prepared for the results of their actions. And yes, there are still laws on the books in some places in America (and perhaps elsewhere, but of that I'm not sure) that make wearing any type of disguise such as that which might make you appear to be a member of the opposite sex, a crime. I didn't write the laws. I suppose they were enacted to prevent criminals from robbing someone while appearing as one sex, and then changing to the other in order to not be caught (same with spies).
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Tell me why? I'll tell you why men can't wear dresses without it being accepted. Men can't do this because of men. Yes... It is men who are not letting men this freedom. Its machism, its sexism, because they think it makes you less of a man, which in their minds is many times less of a person, and less respectable because it is associated that anything that they relate to being "feminine" is inferior.
Men don't like it because well, lots of them think we're gay, and they want nothing to do with that. Also, it represents several other things to men: 1. as above, the possibility that the crossdresser will not live up to the responsibilities that men have in the society in which they live; provider, soldier, protector. 2. That if he associates with the crossdresser in any way, he will be suspect of being a crossdresser, and 'less of a male', as well, damaging his chances of getting the female mate of his choice 3. He feels he must prove that he is 'more of a man' than the crossdresser because of the assumption that if he does not, some may assume it, also damaging his reputation. 4. He feels that he must now prove over and over that he is not, and will not, ever be a crossdresser or feminine in any way, in order to avoid being seen as a lesser man; which explains why some will attack us for no particular reason other than to prove to everyone that he's 'tougher than the sissy'.
Women might not like it because of [1] above, which potentially can endanger her, her children, or even other females in her society, 2. because of ignorance, she may see the crossdresser as a sexual competitor for a male she wants. 3. she has absolutely no attraction to him. Women don't usually see us as physically dangerous to her directly (we're assumed as 'weak'), but they simply don't have any use for us, suspect us of homosexuality, and as some still consider this a sexual perversion, assume we may be an eventual threat to their children.
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In the end, thats why I keep saying, this established sexism is bad for both genders.
We already know that.
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Originally Posted by
Kathleen Ann Trees
The point I wish to contribute is we need to stop pitting one group against another to gain constituencies. Black vs white. Male vs female. Age. Nationality. Theology, and host of social issues.
There's really no way to prevent it. I can't speak for other countries, but the U.S. public school system leaves out a whole lot of information; it's basic premise was to create a population of reasonable competent workers for the corporations to hire. Beyond that was high school for more technical and scientific matters, and college for further specialization. Today, schools have instead become baby sitters and children don't learn enough basic information in grades 1 through 8 to be employable anywhere. High school as well still spits out people who can't even add and subtract, and often cannot read well enough to comprehend what's in a newspaper or write a letter. So we're a society of folks who are educated to work. The debates you mention happen in social settings, or in online ones such as this one. and I for one enjoy reading other people's opinions. Even at my ripe old age, I still learn things. And I like learning things. I guess it's just something that makes me feel young. Add that to whatever makes me feel pretty, and I'm a happy man....girl....what ever is in my mind at the moment.