When did GG start becoming an offensive term ?

[Stephanie47]

I'll agree with Jennie to some extent. If someone is going to call you out for a choice of words, then ask them why they feel offended by whatever word is being used. Frankly, nearing the end of my seventh decade on this planet, I cannot keep up with a lot of the words or phrases thrown around. If someone wants to call me "one of the boys," which I have been called with some frequency it's OK with me. Voice inflection usually is a tip off as to whether "one of the boys" is said with love and affection or some condescending or demeaning manner. Then I'll just wiz by the choice of the word and get to the heart of the matter/disagreement. On any forum such as this there is no way to detect voice inflection.

The first time I encountered 'GG' was on this site. Until here 'GG' was an IND local train in the New York City subway system. Some people dwell on the word to the extent they do not get the message. Even the title of this site may be viewed as offensive if the voice inflection is such as to cast a dispersion upon me.

I do tell some political correctness folks that I can call a dog the most vile words in the English language and as long as the words are spoken in a pleasant manner, the dog will wag its tail and lick my face. However, if I call the dog all the nice lovely words in the English language in a stern screaming non approving way, the dog will cower in the corner.

I find political correctness people to be boring and usually very narrow minded.

[Dana44]

Actually GF means girl friend. So you cant use that. GG is accepted here and every woman that is here do not find it discouraging. But if you are on other site do not use the terms used here as GG stands for genetic woman here but nowhere else.

[Lorileah]

The only way any word can be offensive is if we allow it. People today need to get thicker skinned. They are just words.
Sara

THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

Molly

Spoken like someone with privilege. You have never been in a situation where words can and do hurt. People who think that PC isn't needed and should grow a thicker skin need to walk a mile in the shoes of those who ask NOT to be called something. Go back to being civil...um hmm Yeah, you mean where we called people disparaging things "out of love and respect". If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation. Most of us grew up in a time where we didn't really CARE about other's feelings. Just a couple of days ago I was in a gift shop and they had a bow and arrow set, complete with a depiction of a Native American. Now honestly, I played cowboys and Indians growing up. It seemed harmless. Right? Until I met some Native Americans who pointed out the derogatory stereotypic things that it entailed. I could even expand that game to playing "Army" and the use of terms for what we have considered enemies before. I'm German ancestry, I dare you to call me some of the words that were used.

People just don't get it unless they have had it done to them. The word "girl" infers not adult, immature, not intelligent (wise). It is diminutive, it allows the speaker to talk down to someone. "Quit being such a girl...grow up" Now if you have this fetish to be a little girl, fine. Just don't force it on me or people around me. In the last 50 years we have worked to get everyone on an equal playing field. When someone feels inadequate themselves, they like to bring others to levels below them. So it says a lot to me when someone uses that kind of language. You may think you are being funny, or part of the crowd, but you are just even subconsciously inflating yourself, attempting to be in some sort of control.

But, I can't change people's minds on that in this type of forum. There will always be those who think it's cool or that it makes you part of the group because you OWN the insult. It also opens the door for others to see you as below them. So in a way you are perpetuating stereotypes for yourself.

(addendum seems the transsexuals, who have to live with being called names in real life and the females here who have lived with this for their whole lives get it more than the males who seem to take offense to being called out on it)

[Cristy2]

The word "girl" infers not adult, immature, not intelligent (wise).

Makes perfectly good sense, but I honestly would have never have thought about it that way because where I grew up in Michigan and Ohio most women, even elderly women, would quite often refer to another woman or call each other girl or gal.

[Lana Mae]

I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae

[sometimes_miss]

It's because women don't enjoy being referred to as "girls". We're not little girls. (GG = genetic girl)

and

It's OK if women refer to each other as "girls", like Tracii mentions. It's not OK if men do though,

and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

ReineD, do you think you should change your Avatar to list you as GF or NF, so someone does not make a mistake and refer to you as a "gg" ? By having "gg" on your Avatar it gives the impression it is okay for anyone to refer to women as "gg's"

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

I remember women's libbers in the late '60s-early '70s being offended if they were called girls instead of women. They also didn't like being called ladies. I think these women would be happier if they would lighten up a little

I've never heard the phrase 'lighten up' ever make anyone feel better, so like GG, it's OK here, but probably not good to ever say to one.

I have to wonder when there is a whole gaggle of women (inserted, a 'gaggle of women' is probably another thing we should never use in public, that's sure to 'ruffle some feathers'!) in place one will say you go girl or come on girl/girls lets go (fill in the blank). Its like the N word its OK if they use it just not us. I'm pretty sick of all this "I'm so offended" BS and stupid attitudes I see in public.

and

The whole concept of "owning" it bothers me too. If a group of women don't want the "girls" label, they shouldn't use it between themselves. One sees this in almost every marginalized group. It annoys the hell out of me...it confuses others. It is like telling a child "Don't say that word it's bad" and turning around and using it yourself.

This is what I can't get my head around. How do they NOT see that they are setting an example of how they feel people should behave? Or are they really so self-important that they believe that THEY can behave one way, while dictating that everyone else behave another?

Best not to be concerned. Some folks will find offense in anything.

We have to be concerned if we ever want them to accept what we do. We need to understand what it is that bothers them in order to address it.

I know we use "GG" in the context of distinguishing genetic females from trans-women or CD's

and

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.

I think even when they understand it, they don't like it.

I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae

So what do we use? 'Women who were born phenotypically female'? Holy crap that's a pain in the butt.

[PretzelGirl]

Spoken like someone with privilege. You have never been in a situation where words can and do hurt. People who think that PC isn't needed and should grow a thicker skin need to walk a mile in the shoes of those who ask NOT to be called something.

This a thousand times. Privilege is a big problem and results in many of the issues we see today. "I have mine so the world is good and I don't have to worry about others". What we should be doing is listening to others and understanding what they are saying instead of calling it political correctness. The minute you say PC, you have flagged that you are not listening to what the person is saying. You are marginalizing their opinion/experience.

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words?

Well, you don't necessarily need to step gingerly with every step you take. But if someone is speaking up and saying something is problematic, do them the service of listening instead of disregarding them by saying statements like "troublemaker" and "They are just being politically correct".

And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

When did you decide that your opinion mattered more than someone's feelings? You can marginalize them and when they draw your attention to it, you can marginalize them some more?

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses.

I don't know what nether regions you are pulling this from, but I talk with a lot of women that know I (a TS individual) am a woman. I didn't need to explain it to them. I didn't need to ask them. I was just me and they accepted me.

By definition, crossdressers are not women. Miriam Webster has this definition: "the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex". If you are wearing clothes of the opposite sex, you obviously can't be the opposite sex. If you wear woman's clothes and say you are a woman, you need to pick another identity. You aren't a crossdresser.

Drag Queens are many different identities. I know DQs that are gay, transsexual, and some that are female identified at birth. DQs are a rather big "box".

[Zooey]

So, I've been on a self-imposed hiatus from posting in this little litter-box (or sand-pit, as I think Lori called it). That's going to resume right after this.

and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

If you think that women being able to use a word amongst themselves but not wanting others to use it on them is inappropriate, then I could suggest a few choice words you should try out on a megaphone in Harlem. It should be totally fine... Screw people of color for taking ownership of something oppressive, right?

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

Personally, I prefer FAB or "natal female" for women who were born female, and "women" for - wait for it - women (cis and trans). GG was always a bad term, IMO, though it was adopted here for whatever reason so whatevs. If you don't like my word choices, then my suggestion would be to ask yourself, "What would a respectful human say in this situation?" Then say that.

I said this recently, in another discussion (elsewhere). It feels appropriate here.

The best thing that could ever happen to (this) place is the FAB folks actually talking about all the things people do/say (here) that offend or annoy them.

Near as I can tell, many/most of the CDs here would vastly prefer to not have cold water poured on their fantasy. By and large, whether you believe it or not, the FAB and TS women here are rather compassionate, and tend to avoid doing just that. I'm sure things around here would be VERY interesting if we actually started pointing out all of the patronizing, incredibly misogynistic, or (frankly) just plain creepy stuff that gets said here every time we saw it.

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

Look... The vast majority of the women that I've met or know personally have absolutely no problem thinking of me as a woman. The vast majority of those have no problem with thinking of pretty much any woman (cis or trans) as a woman. Some of them have no problem with most of you (CDs) in concept; some of them do.

None of them think of you as women. Which is appropriate, primarily because you're not women.

So no - you don't get to call grown-ass women "girls". You don't get to make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now; ugh" without getting called on it sometimes.

You can call each other girls, gurls, or whatever else you want (although given the average age here, I think it's creepy AF). You can list the make and model of your panties in the first paragraph of every post, and you can debate the tensile strength of 3 brands of pantyhose as observed through a damn electron microscope. I don't care. Just avoid doing this passive aggressive BS against the actual women in your world, lest you invite us to start actually contributing all of our thoughts on the things you say.

I've said far more than most, and if you think I've said all I have to say, you are very much mistaken.

[Amanda M]

Scenario - from yesterday. I'm sitting with a mixed group of men and women round a table at a restaurant. I had just bought a round of beers for the men. Now how do I wask what the females want. Now ladies, who wants what? OG, GGs who wants what ? or Right girls who wants what? Any ideas.

[PaulaQ]

The other really inappropriate aspect of GG is the first "G" - "genetic." It suggests that trans women aren't women because they don't have two X chromosomes, and therefore aren't real.

There are enough genetic variations that the idea of sex as a strict binary is a social construct, it isn't something that really exists neatly in nature.

[Valery L]

This fashion of politically correctness makes me sick.

[sometimes_miss]

I don't know what nether regions you are pulling this from, but I talk with a lot of women that know I (a TS individual) am a woman. I didn't need to explain it to them. I didn't need to ask them. I was just me and they accepted me.

and

Look... The vast majority of the women that I've met <snip>.

You know, I tried to make it as clear as possible that I wasn't referring to ALL WOMEN.
And Zooey, geez, can't you even read the very lines you quoted of me? "Many (but not ALL"
I put that in there specifically to address the fact that it doesn't include everyone. So why are you arguing with me about it?

Besides, we're referring to two different subsets of the population: You're speaking of the people that you have spoken with face to face and people you know; so they know who they're talking to. I'm speaking about those who don't know who they're talking to, so I get to hear what you PROBABLY do not, POSSIBLY because no one wants to offend you, doesn't want to get into an argument with you, or maybe simply does not care to get involved with you. I'm not out; I get to be a fly on the wall and HEAR WHAT YOU DO NOT. And what I hear usually isn't pretty. It's often prejudiced, bigoted, sometimes mean. But it's very real, and apparently way more widespread than you think it is. You don't think so? Just look at the fiasco of the bathroom bills, because there are apparently still a whole lot of people out there that have problems with anyone who doesn't fit their definition of 'normal', and they don't include any of us in that definition.

Zooey; You want them to be called FAB. A little odd, don't you think, seeing as FAB is generally considered short for fabulous, not 'female at birth'; so aren't they going to think asking to be referred to as that is just a little bit pretentious? And if they don't think it is, MOST others, will.

Natal female. Yeah, referring to someone as that, that's going to go over like a lead balloon, just like GG does.

And where do you get off saying that I "call grown-ass women "girls", or "make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now"? You don't even know me! Stop reading stuff between the lines that isn't there. And no, I don't think it's any more correct that blacks can use the N word and then declare that it's suddenly incorrect for anyone else to use it; some of them even want Koreans to come up with other words to replace nega and niga, which are Korean words that have nothing to do with race at all.

If someone doesn't want a word used in a certain way, then they shouldn't use it that way either. We don't need any double standards.

[PretzelGirl]

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women.

Let me quote you again. "*Many* women." I don't care if you are a fly on the wall or if there are people arguing about bathrooms. That is just flat out projecting your own insecurities. I am out as out gets and even then, I am a woman to most that I know and the rest I am just not sure. I never get separated by the people I know because I am trans. And you can tell by their actions and how they treat you. You can't have a litmus test any stronger than that.

[NicoleScott]

In all my years on the forum, I can't recall this ever being an issue. I see GG as a quick 2-keystroke abbreviation. I can't believe that GG has ever been used here with the intention to be offensive. So why suddenly now? Jumping on the bandwagon, ya think?

[Sara Jessica]

Years ago I was called out my a mod in these pages for something about using the term girl and/or GG. Somehow, that context carried over into a conversation on another forum. Out of curiosity, I dug up some of those things I said on that forum so very long ago...

Originally Posted by Sara...
Funny you got heat for objecting to the term gg (forgive me, I actually use that one). _______ handed me my head over referring to myself as a "girl" when I framed a polite disagreement over the term "gurl". Hmmm, genetic girl is ok but someone who is trans describing themselves as being a girl is not???

Important to note that the original conversation had to do with what one calls oneself. It was then pointed out that some partners (SO's, allies, etc) "don't like being referred to as a girl, genetic or otherwise. Some do. It probably has to do with what connotation, if any, they attach to it," to which I replied...

And I can appreciate that pov. I don't even think "genetic girl" when I think about or use the term gg. For me, it's simply two letters to differentiate between genetic and tg, nothing more, nothing less.

But why would one defend the term gg, yet attack the use of the word "girl" as descriptive, even if used in the context of an adult, regardless of genetic or tg? For example, my wife is clearly an adult woman, yet she frequently uses the term "girls night out". Another one, I was emailing a tg friend and she brought up a computer issue and I replied "I'm an Apple girl myself". Seems to flow much better than saying "Apple woman".

But like you said, it is really all about context.

A few posts later, the moderator there later replied...

"on these boards, please lay off the use of "girl" when referring to any woman other than yourself. (you can call yourself whatever you'd like.)"

and...

"genetic anything" is (BS) anyway. no one here knows their karotype, so don't be so quick to assume you know your chromosomal code."

My point in digging up all this is that through understanding of how this seemingly innocent use of language had even a seemingly slight negative impact on others, I changed my behavior.

• I stopped using the term GG. In writing, I replaced that term with natal female if I was making such a distinction.
• I still hate the term gurl. Heck, I even bristle at the use of the term T-girl.
• When reviewing my ancient writings leading up to finding these tidbits, I was struck by how much I used the term girl when referring to myself. I hope I don't that so much any longer.

Look at all of these tangents. Use of GG, referring to other women as girls, referring to ourselves as girls. The trans-lexicon. How many of these are terms of endearment? Does it all depend on the eye of the beholder? Isn't that what counts, how our words are perceived???

Fact of the matter is that we all make decisions as to how we present ourselves to the outside world. In spaces such as this, our words are often the only window to our hearts. Words, though, in such an environment are imperfect. In our mind we know exactly what we mean. We know context. We know what we're trying to convey when saying words which can be misconstrued by others, whether literally or in context. Sometimes making small changes in how we present our thoughts to others can go such a long way towards a mutual understanding.

In other words, it is about respect.

[CONSUELO]

Somehow what may start out as an innocent term gathers a fat baggage of meaning and can become insulting to some. Why did the term transvestite fall out of use to be replaced by cross dresser. They mean the exact same thing philologically but one is felt to be somehow demeaning while the other, at least for now, is felt to be OK.

Remember when Gov. Shwarzeneger ( apologies for misspelling) called some people "girly men". That struck me as being insulting to men who might seem less masculine to some but also to women as the use of the term "girly" was intended as a pejorative. That was apparent in the tone of voice that he used. The strong implication was that being very feminine was somehow weak or bad or perhaps a sign of moral cowardice.

Language is a subtle and also a very powerful thing. We should always be sensitive to the nuances.

[Badtranny]

Sheesh, I really hate posting over here, but I feel compelled to chime in with what I find offensive.

Since I'm apparently some kind of robot who doesn't truly understand the nuances of language, thus rarely EVER offended by words I will state very simply the only thing that really gets my meter running;

- People who decide that THEY will be the arbiters of expression, and demand that YOU will act as they do. -

I set my self free from being afraid and pretending to be something I'm not over six years ago and after fighting so hard to be free I have earned the right to lampoon convention and irritate the self imposed policy makers. To those on the Left as well as those on the Right, I'm not afraid to stand alone and give you each a middle finger.

Call me whatever you like. I've heard it all, and I have truly risen above it.

PS. There is no closet case who can say the same thing, ...so just don't.

[Zooey]

And where do you get off saying that I "call grown-ass women "girls", or "make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now"? You don't even know me! Stop reading stuff between the lines that isn't there.

FWIW, I wasn't talking exclusively about you as an individual - it was the royal you (CDs). I don't have to read between the lines to find that stuff though. There's not much subtlety to most of it.

[PaulaQ]

The most correct term you could use in these discussions would be "cisgender" or "cis" women. Using a term like "natal women" doesn't really work either because trans women assert that we have always been women, but it took us all a varying amount of time to align our bodies with our minds. We didn't just "decide to be women" one day. That's impossible!

These may seem like "politically correct nonsense", "jumping on the band wagon", "being too sensitive about words", but if you say that, then you probably haven't lived with really getting beaten up about your gender just constantly. Yes, I realize many CDs go through hell, especially with their spouses, but you really can't understand how bad this is until you live fulltime.

Those of us who transition get told a lot of things pretty much constantly:
1. Genetics prove we aren't real women. "It's science"
2. We aren't real women because of our looks
3. We aren't real women because we were raised as men
4. We aren't real women because of our genitalia
.... The list goes on and on.

That may not sound so bad, but the follow up to those statements is ALWAYS:
-- "so you don't deserve rights"
-- "so I can treat you abusively"
-- "so I can deny you service, such as medical care"

Also wanting to be perceived as women is a defining characteristic of gender dysphoria.

So if we seem sensitive to subtle little things in language, it's because we've been beaten down by language for our entire lives.

[Lorileah]

Scenario - from yesterday. I'm sitting with a mixed group of men and women round a table at a restaurant. I had just bought a round of beers for the men. Now how do I wask what the females want. Now ladies, who wants what? OG, GGs who wants what ? or Right girls who wants what? Any ideas.

Here's a thought..."Hey Mary, what would you like? How about you Matilda?" If you don't know how they will react, try and not do it. But then that's just me

PS I think it's sexist to buy men beers just cuz they are men

[Amanda M]

Lorileah - I bought the men beers because they asked for them. After all I am a gentleman... or a lady.

[Roberta Lynn]

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names will never
Hurt me.

[Angie G]

I ticks me off how some people are take offense over the least things nowadays with all thats going on in this world that really needs fixing. Some people need to get a life. Sorry if I ''OFFENDED ANYONE'' Kelly don't get your pnsties in a twist over this.
Angie

[Leslie Langford]

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names will never
Hurt me.

...said every teenager - and particularly the LGBT ones - who was ever cyber-bullied and committed suicide because they just couldn't take the abuse and shaming anymore...NOT!

[I Am Paula]

I would have to think that 99.99999% of the women born genetically female have never heard the term.