Who can blame us

[ReineD]

But my question to you was if that specific moment when your SO at the restaurant told you that men consider a woman to be "accessible" if she wears a dress or a skirt, if that statement from your SO changed how you dressed from then on in similar situations? Have you heard this from any other men?

Not at all. As I said in my post #43, I have felt flattered when a man looked at me appreciatively. Whether or not his mind wanders to sex is not my concern, provided he behaves appropriately (no rude gestures, no rude comments, etc). The vast majority of men that I have interacted with in my life have behaved well. And no, I have not heard this from other men because I haven't asked them. I doubt my father, brother, brother-in-law, and adult sons would tell me the same thing my SO did, even if they feel the same way he does. And I've not asked my male friends, it has never come up. Maybe telling women what men really think violates the male code. lol

... I want to be part of that! I can not call up any of my male friends and say "I feel really sad today, I need to just talk to you about this for a little while", but I feel I could do that with a girl friend, except as a man I can't do it, I would have to first be accepted as one of the girls.

How unfortunate that you feel you cannot confide in your best friend. I have three adult male sons and I love the fact that they have male friends they can discuss emotional issues with. Their generation is so much better off I think. But I promise you that you CAN talk to women about anything and they will treat you just as they would a girlfriend. You don't have to get dressed up for that. We are very good at reading subtle body language cues and we can tell when someone, male or female, is being sincere about their emotional state of mind. We can tell whether or not a man has ulterior motives. I have had great talks with male friends about all sorts of things, just as if I was talking to a female friend. I have had close male friends since I was a teenager. Not many, but a few.

She doesn't "understand" it, but totally accepts that part of me without question or judgement.

I feel the same way about my SO.

I guess I just got triggered by whet felt like judgement. If you don't understand us, fine. But saying if we dress "a certain" way, we're trying to attract men and why would we do that if we're not gay?

Not all women dress specifically to look sexy, in fact most women I know do not dress like that on a day-to-day basis. My daughters-in-law have a non-complimentary word for women who put themselves out there just to go to the grocery store or out for brunch: heavy makeup, skirts that are too short, heels that are too high, tops that are too low-cut or too tight. We can tell if a GG is trying to get guys to look at her. It's OK for some venues like a night club, but not at work or around town doing day-to-day things. But, so many crossdressers seem to try to emulate the women that we GGs don't respect. Not all CDers, obviously, but a great many.

So if your style doesn't look like you're trying to attract a man, then these comments don't apply to you.

[DAVIDA]

All I can say is WOW!......just wow!
One's personal thought does not make it Everyone's thought or meaning.
I have felt this way my entire life. Why? I have no idea.
I always thought to emulate, not dominate a female.
This thread is very disturbing to me on several levels.
No, I have no idea what it is to be a female, or to grow up as one.
I have no idea how they have had to endure the tribulations of being ogled, sexualized, or tormented for the choice of clothing they wear.
I sort of feel .....discusted with myself for even being a male, since it seems most males are in the mindset of looking at women with these thoughts or actions.
I feel guilty for wearing the clothes women wear.
Never have I wanted, needed, or sought any attention of any other person, male or female, while I have the clothes on normally worn by females.
It is just something I have done for ME since I was a very young boy, before I even knew what sex was.
It just felt right, and wrong. Now I know it was wrong.
Damn! I feel like throwing what little I have left that is considered women's wear in the trash.
Well, guess what? I will not be doing that.
I am ME, not anyone else, and I will not feel like I have to answer for anyone else's thoughts or actions.
If I did, I would have to feel guilty for being male just because another person is bad, or psychotic, and torments, rapes, or kills another person, female or male.
I think members are taking this to levels that are just a bit higher than needed.
I don't have answers. I truly don't think anyone does.
I guess I am one of the lucky ones who has a wife or SO who doesn't see an aberration when I have a dress on, she just sees me.
Please just don't let this become an; us against them, thread.
We all have had things to deal with through our lives, good and bad.
It surely doesn't mean everyone has the same mindset on any matter.
OK, now I will shut up. My mind is hurting, along with my heart.

[DianeT]

Being a crossdresser isn't a standard hobby and often a complicated thing to live with and accept, for the person and her relatives. This makes us sensitive individuals, and if I may, a bit over sensitive, a bit emotional when dealing with these subjects. I don't think anyone should take these things too personally unless they think it applies to them and may help them know themselves better. It is a sane thing to explore our oddities and contradictions. It allows us to acknowledge them, if not to explain them, and move on. Trying to tell CDers that they tend to rationalize their appetite for female clothes by talking about colors and cuts isn't pointing a finger at them. It is just a theory that advances the discussion about the real motivations and it can be argued against as well. Debate is iterative in nature and we should accept the back and forth, even if it doesn't give a final answer, because with debate the journey generally matters more than the destination. There isn't always an answer at the end of the line, or maybe not for everyone, but everybody will have learned a thing or two in the process. About us, about GGs (a subject of interest for many of us). Also, one may have noticed that GGs tend to be more matter-of-fact in their approach to problems (at least on this site). They don't beat around the bush and this saves time in discussion. Some of the observations my wife made about me were not always easy to deal with, such as the fact that I tend to objectify her when I focus on parts of her body or the clothes she's wearing (for example pantyhose). One of the reasons we keep the lines of communication open is because I try to not react emotionally to these comments. I just (sometimes, "just" is easier said than done) add the fact or observation to the case and see where it takes the discussion. After all I may objectify women. What does it mean exactly? What does it tell about my sexuality? How may it relate to my dressing? Am I objectifying myself when I dress? It is indeed a gift to be able to discuss this with your partner in life. And of course takes some efforts on both sides to keep the discussion going, because they are very emotional and complex subjects, dealing with very intimate things.
I think we should try, as much as we can, to take in comments and observations from GGs and other members as contributing elements for the discussion, at least as long as they aren't ill-intended. And if it pushes a button, hits a nerve, good, it means we have something to dig up and expose there. Analyze and break down the thing until it becomes a mere fact or theory, accept or refuse it (with arguments), add it to the debate, and progress from there. In such a discussion, there will be no guilt, no need for justifications. Just people trying to confront ideas and facts and advance their knowledge of the matter at hand.

[SylphDevine]

Not all women dress specifically to look sexy, in fact most women I know do not dress like that on a day-to-day basis. My daughters-in-law have a non-complimentary word for women who put themselves out there just to go to the grocery store or out for brunch: heavy makeup, skirts that are too short, heels that are too high, tops that are too low-cut or too tight. We can tell if a GG is trying to get guys to look at her. It's OK for some venues like a night club, but not at work or around town doing day-to-day things. But, so many crossdressers seem to try to emulate the women that we GGs don't respect. Not all CDers, obviously, but a great many.

So if your style doesn't look like you're trying to attract a man, then these comments don't apply to you.

As I've said elsewhere I work in retail, so I see women up close and personal daily and I notice one thing consistently: however they're dressed at the time their grooming is always meticulous. Nails always done. Makeup always perfect and invisible but always some makeup. Hair PERFECT, whether a casual style or "done up". Earrings. Something feminine in clothing, whether a ruffle, frill or fabric. These are women out shopping, dressed very casually, not "for the club" Women LOVE being feminine. They spend a long time at the makeup counter trying on different shades of color, lipstick, concealer, eye shadow, blush, lip gloss etc. Pretty much all women that come into the store...it's how women ARE.

That's the essence I think that I'm feeling. Being "feminine" in any way in public is reserved for women. Has nothing to do with attracting men. They want to "look good" for themselves.

That's the essence of crossdressing to me. I want those same things, whether in public or in private.

The best conversations I have with women are when I mention how good their nails look, or compliment them on their style. It isn't sexual and they light up in response. They went to the trouble, they're glad it's noticed.

[Bea_]

So that is what I am curious about, do men actually think like this, or was this a little bit of an over interpretation of men just being men and thinking that a woman wearing a dress or a skirt is a little more exciting to look at, than one in slacks or jeans.

Obviously some men think like that. I do not.

I remember as a freshman in high school, circa 1970, sitting in class and a cute but shy girl sitting behind me had a run in her pantihose. The guy beside me made a joke about the runner being a "train track to the sugar shack". I thought he was rude and obnoxious and felt sorry for the girl who was obviously embarrassed and humiliated by the comment. As I've aged that exchange has come back to mind a few times. I absolutely know that my mind never went that direction. And, I had noticed that this particular girl had nice, athletic legs and I did admire them. I did not imagine any kind of "accessibility".

My personal opinion is that the viewpoint expressed about accessibility is based on one man's imagination and is being projected on all men.

The things that cause a man to notice feminine cues is hardwired into a man just as Reine said wanting to be noticed as attractive is hardwired in her brain. To narrow down the complexity of why a man notices a woman in a skirt to "accessibility" is no different than saying she is offering "accessibility" when she wears a skirt.

It triggered memories of hearing the terrible "What was she wearing? Well she was asking for it" which is just horrible nonmatter how you cut it, and I hope we as a society are moving away from that thought as fast as possible.

That was precisely what the "signaling accessibility" interpretation brought to my mind. And, one man's imagination being projected towards all men seems to be less than respectful of those of us who have to go through a fair amount of mental gymnastics to get from admiring a woman's legs to receiving some "accessibility signal".

[Dutchess]

I'm pretty shocked at all the fit throwing here if someone points out certain realities about this activity .. I mean seriously we have men acting like.... well.. you know.. not like women.. all this is is a little pushback .
We aren't your spouses , if someone tells me all they can do is think of crossdressing , I'm going to tell him to get a grip. That is reality right there.
Anyway not everyone who goes shopping is so meticulously made up. That's a fantasy . I'm able to get in the car right now go 2.5 mi down the block and I will be in Beverly Hills, California and I promise you not everybody is made up the way you say. I know. I see them.

Reine is right about dresses being an easier access garment.. when I was in 4th grade at a very expensive episcopal school I had my dress torn completely off by a group of boys while we were all on the playground. Female teachers stood there and watched.. they said they did it so they could see what a naked girl looked like. Right there in public too!!
Well of course I never wore one again and yes there is a big difference between a 11 yr old girls having her dress torn off and a grown man in a micro mini and go go boots. So I'm sure you'll be safe.
To do this you are going to have to develop pretty thick skin, you know, like we have too.
And as always you don't have to know what sex is yet to know what feels good. Some people hide behind that.

So I don't really care if anyone here thinks that way or not . That doesn't matter to me because I won't have time to distinguish between someone who doesn't and somebody that does.. I'm not going to give some random guy a pass just because a few people say they don't think like that ...

All this ridiculous outrage is really of no use.

[SylphDevine]

That's how I took it as well, Bea. I went on a pretty long and strong rant about it and then realized I may have put the thread in jeopardy (props to Stephanie) so I deleted it and reframed my thoughts a little less dogmatically in my previous post. I would like for this particular thread to stay up and have the discussion continue to evolve.

It's a shame some gg's who don't understand what we are/need/feel paint us with a broad brush, but that's the nature of any "village" I guess.

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up. Pretty sure all some of us are asking is to be allowed to feel the same way without being lectured about what femininity "really" is. I don't want to be a woman, but I sure as heck want to be able to feel feminine when I want to.

If you think this is "outrage" I assure you it's just a reaction to the blatant sexism.

[ReineD]

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up.

Wow. It sounds as if you live in paradise! I live in the midwest. The vast majority of women I see when I'm out and about don't wear makeup. Not even my daughters-in-law! (One lives in central Jacksonville, one in central Pittsburgh, and one in San Diego. These are all vibrant urban centers. And gosh, you should see MY fingernails. You would be horrified! Seriously. I'm very active with my hands: minor house repairs, drawing, painting, crafts, cooking, etc, and I have always had brittle fingernails - never been able to grow them. So I just keep them very short and clean. No polish. Although there was a time in my life when I felt compelled to wear acrylics (in my 20s), it only lasted a few years before I gave up.

[SylphDevine]

Cool beans. Since my previous post I've been out and about and am paying very close attention to the way women are presenting themselves. I'm correct. It's not an assumption. Saw a woman pushing her bay in a carriage with her husband. Husband was in a wrinkly tshirt shorts and sneakers. The mom had this pretty white flowered dress with ruffled sleeves (dress was below the knee. Hair nicely tied with a lace ribbon. She had on makeup and earrings, although the makeup was very subtle. Could see her toenails peeking out of her sandals and they were a bright cherry red, so I assume her nails were the same. Just a casual outing with the little one walking down Main Street.

Very common around here. Maybe Vermont is different. If you go to our main city (burlington) it's like a fashion show all day. The casual outfits are delightful.

I was just out in Vancouver, Victoria and the peninsula of western Washington for a couple weeks. Same thing. In Vancouver it's glam city for women.

Some of us guys want just a little slice of that. I don't want to date men. I want to feel feminine once in a while. Since I'm not female (nor do I have any desire to be a woman) it's all about the clothes.

[Maid_Marion]

I find it pretty amazing that I can use the bathroom like a girl.
I had a stroke in my mid 30s and had to learn how to walk again!
From a sitting position I can shift my weight a little and hover over my chair without using my hands.
I can hold my hands over the keyboard while doing this.
I can lift myself from a squattting position and easily move my body around.
Hovering over the seat while holding my little black crossbody bag is something I can do!
It may help that I do a lot of golf practice and gardening.
I now have an obscenely thin waist. About the same as when I weighed 85 lbs in High School.
Put on 20lbs since then. Doctor says I could eat more.

My nails look very nice without polish as I take good care of them.
When I was a kid I used to have all sorts of little accidents that would hurt my hands.
I've been working on avoiding them so my hands look good.
I do wear rubber gardening gloves to protect them.
I found they will let me grow the nails a little past my fingertips but if the nails get too long the gloves will crack them so I don't do that anymore.

I've been using a Braun IPL all winter so almost all the hair on my legs is gone.

When I go out I'll take an extra close shave before I go out. I may put on a tiny bit of lipstick if I don't forget.
As well as wear my new Timex floral ladies watch. I usually wear "feminine" colors like pink.
I have shoes with floral accents though I've been going out recently with heeled booties. Yes, I go grocery shopping in heeled booties.

Marion

[Dutchess]

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up. Pretty sure all some of us are asking is to be allowed to feel the same way without being lectured about what femininity "really" is. I don't want to be a woman, but I sure as heck want to be able to feel feminine when I want to.

If you think this is "outrage" I assure you it's just a reaction to the blatant sexism.

Sorry, but I don't get triggered like that ... just saying .. you are, however, certainly barking up the wrong tree talking to me like that . And no those are not the facts.....your facts ,maybe .. but not the facts .

[SylphDevine]

Wow. It sounds as if you live in paradise! I live in the midwest. The vast majority of women I see when I'm out and about don't wear makeup. Not even my daughters-in-law! (One lives in central Jacksonville, one in central Pittsburgh, and one in San Diego. These are all vibrant urban centers. And gosh, you should see MY fingernails. You would be horrified! Seriously. I'm very active with my hands: minor house repairs, drawing, painting, crafts, cooking, etc, and I have always had brittle fingernails - never been able to grow them. So I just keep them very short and clean. No polish. Although there was a time in my life when I felt compelled to wear acrylics (in my 20s), it only lasted a few years before I gave up.

LOL You should see my nails. I make lots of stuff out of wood and metal and my hands are quite calloused and rough.

Working on a shell for my pickup truck at the moment to try to convert it to a camper.

[DAVIDA]

Time for this thread to end.