I just feel natural too. And I'm not TS. There are some natal females on here who are not content to be so.Originally Posted by Kehleyr
I find it quite ironic that the people who consistently mistake me for TS areTSs. So if you (as a group) can't tell the difference, how much difference is there? A lot less than you seem to think I'd say. No-one can read another's mind so there's no way you can know what the "internal experiences and feelings" of that person are.
Best Wishes
Paula
Warning: This product may contain Badger
Every girl crazy 'bout a sharp-dressed Badger.
"Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"
- Tony Hancock
[QUOTE=Kehleyr;1003323]
well i tend to agree with Kehleyr hereFrom what I can tell, most TS women never really identify as CDs before deciding that they are TS women. Some TS women are *extremely* macho before transition (it is part of their repress and deny coping mechanism). Some of them are just nice, sensitive seeming guys beforehand.
so true , i am sure that most feel that this would just go away and we can live " normal " livesAlso, a common coping mechanism for TS women in denial is to enter into a serious relationship with a heterosexual woman and marry her (and have kids, if they are young enough).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ok so here is the confusing part. We want to know if our partners are men, want to be women or are a combination of the two. If you are transexual I can understand the need to express your feminine self on a daily basis. If you are a combination of the two then you SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPRIMISE. The fact that Sobe's SO is UN-WILLING to comprimise is the problem. By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM. :Angry3: I believe that this is what she is upset about and what is going to destroy their relationship.
Does Sobe have to deny herself everyday of the week?????? Does Leah B get full rein of everything just because he is confused and can't see past his own desire's to see things clearly???
Sorry don't buy this argument. It is a two way street. I want to live my life the way I want to also but I gave up some of that control when I got married. THAT IS JUST LIFE!!! Kitty
That would be true if he did not compromise on any subject, which I very much doubt is the case. Just because there is one subject which cannot be compromised does not make the whole relationship about him.
If he is TG then how do you compromise this? He cannot switch it on and off. Even when he is in drab Sobe's SO can still be thinking and behaving as TG. It would be like suggesting that you should only be a part-time woman. How could you achieve that if all you only feel yourself to be a woman and nothing else?
I hear sometimes about compromises some transies make with their partners that I just know I couldn't do without suffering. Sometimes posts are pointed out to me where the trans partner gives something up "for the sake of his wife," and I immediately think one of two things: Either they are giving up something that is easy for them to give up, or they are consenting to an inescapable, oppressive malaise. There is nobody I love enough, or will ever love enough, to consent to that. If something is easy for me, or even if it's tough but tolerable, I can compromise on it. (I talked to Sobe, and she said she wouldn't ask me to compromise on anything except for these cases.)
Unfortunatly, the "big deals" are often the same for me as they are for Sobe. I certainly don't want Sobe to suffer any sort of malaise, but I don't want to either. So what seems like a "if you don't like it, you can leave" is really more like "If you don't like it, you SHOULD leave" because with some things is no middle ground, and we're both better off with a fresh chance for happiness. We don't have kids, or a shared mortgage, or any number of other things that make us inextricably bound.
And when I'm reluctant to slow things down so Sobe can catch up, it's partly because I don't want to suffer in the time being (which for some issues, could be years or possibly never), and partly because time will only make it harder if we have to break up. Also, while Sobe resents being nagged about someting I'm waiting on, from my perspective, I'm waiting on something that may not ever come if I don't speak up, and each day she spends coming to terms with it is a week I spend waiting for it.
Now, on to the questions:.If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them
For some, it IS just clothes, so they do need them. For me, the clothes are expressive, just like my male clothes. I certainly CAN feel fem without them, and often do, but I like them. And at one point, they were necessary for me to feel fem.
Gender is a social construct. Every single person we meet is immediately put into a box "Male" or "female," often without you ever really having to think about it. How we treat people is then dramatically influenced by this. When I'm at home alone, I'm not male or female. I'm just me. I may identify as a guy, but "guy" doesn't mean anything alone.
But when you've spent 26 years thinking of yourself as male, it's not easy to change your own mind. A reflected image in a mirror goes a long way toward dispelling our illusions about ourselves. It sounds strange, but seeing yourself through the eyes of someone else helps a lot.
Strangers can certainly help validate how we feel about ourselves. Really, it isn't about what strangers think of us, it's finding where we fit in in the world. I can tell myself a woman all I want, but if all I get "Hey, man!" where does it leave me? I want to be put into the female box, and be treated accordingly. Sobe has told me she needs me to be her man, and I don't expect her to change this. I could never be a woman to her, and I need to be a woman socially as well as mentally.How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside?
We're emulating what we see and what we like and admire. Growing up as boys, this is radically edifferent than what women see and admire.Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman
And I really really hate the fact that I didn't figure this out as a teen. Teen fashions are the best! All the wild experimentation, the color, glitter, super-femme stuff. You've been there and done that, I haven't. I'm lucky I figured this out at 26. The twenties and thirties are good too, even if they are relatively sober.
I probably wont ever go out dressed like a teen would. I just want to be a woman out there, not be a freak on top of that.
ANd Sobe, aren't you the one who has a 50s fashion site bookmarked? The fifties was like the best era for women's fashion! On this I know we agree.
Good point! But for now, I'd rather pass. I really, really, want to pass, and in jeans and an androgynous top, I'm a dude in tight pants. Or perhaps not.Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?
I'd like to note though that I never said I would prefer the andrgynous look to exclusion. I definitely prefer it for casual times, but I love the femmy look too. Frankly, I'd like to be feminine no matter what I wear.
As far as gender goes, the decades haven't changed much for men. Seriously, how much have men's roles changed since the 50s? The 1850s? A little, but women have come a looooong way.I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in?
Anyway, it's not liking pink that makes men have gender issues, it's what makes them realize that they do. There are plenty of men who cook and sew and aren't trans, but these activities don't help them realize anything, because there's nothing to realize.
When Sobe says I don't compromise, she is wrong. I do compromise. Sometimes too much, which lands me in trouble because I end up backing out. From her end it looks like I can't keep my end of the deal, but I'm doing plenty of compromise, kitty.The fact that Sobe's SO is UN-WILLING to comprimise is the problem. By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM.
Last edited by Leah B; 09-10-2007 at 03:21 PM.
You raised a lot of good questions here but for now I will try my view/experience on just one
The truth is we are all human. We all have a vary wide range of feelings and emotions, and we like/need to both express, and experience, those feelings, Because we are social creatures most of that expresion and experience has to occure in a social setting, with other people. If this were a perfect world this wouldn't be a problem, but its not. I our foolishness we labled many of the feelings and expressions boy, girl, appropriate, not appropriate. And so if you need a specific respose it may not be avaialbe in you given gender. A poor example, but it should give you an idea I, a male, feel hurt by others, I want to express that, and receive comfort. If I cry, an inappropriate expression for a male, I will not receive comfort, only censure for being too emotional. If I use anger, I may get support/recognition as a strong male, but not comfort. To get comfort I have to be female. This label and societies adherence to the labels make one believe the only way to get the female response is to be female. And its not CDer doing it its the people around them that decide the response the CDer will get. The CDer is just trying to conform to gender norms for acceptance and response to displayed feelings by society.My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious
is just HARD! It is the ultimate question in marriages like ours. How far is too far? What compromises can each person make without feeling that they are compromising themselves to a place of misery? I don't know the answers, I just now that trying to find out is beyond difficult.
Louise.
Sobe,
First a few questions your way: what is the willingness, or lack thereof, on both sides regarding some level of compromise??? I've always liked your posts, so don't take this a personal afront to you. That said, I am, in the end, left wondering if your SO is totally unwilling to compromise -- and I am left wondering about your level of willingness to compromise? Relationships are about balance! If you are willing to compromise and your SO isn't, then you are at a dead end! Conversely, if you aren't willing to compromise and your SO isn't either, then it is same results: dead end!
I do understand where Louise is coming from when she says . . .
However, that said, often in life, depending on the stakes, compromise can be appropriate if it is in healthy proportions!!! My wife and I reached a point several years ago where practically all of the boundaries had been removed. Yet, a few minor ones remained. She realizes who and what I am, and she knows she cannot ask me to be otherwise b/c such would be tantamount to asking me not to be at all!!! She had also grown in acceptence -- to the point of realizing that much of what initially attracted her to me was because of who and what I am. But, just like with any area of life with a loved one, there are some very minor points where love itself dictates that compromise is in the best interest of the corporate entity!!!
If Sobe gets nothing of what she wants and her SO gets all of what he wants and refuses to seek marital balance, then that is just purely selfish -- it is not a healthy relationship!!! Conversely, if Sobe is wiling to establish healthy boundaries and really work on marital balance -- and is willing to see if those boundaries can be moved with time as understanding and acceptance grow, then her SO is extremely fortunate and should work with her. To do otherwise (by the SO) would be the epitome of selfishness!!!
The clothes are, IMHO, very important to the mtf heterosexual crossdresser -- at least the majority of them. The clothes are, after all, to whatever extent each CDer dresses, the outward and visible expression of the femme side of a dichotomous personna.
Just my opinion, but let me answer this two ways. First, your SO doesn't "need" to go out to be treated like a woman. Second, the first part said, going out is an extremely "freeing" experience!!!!!!! It is difficult to explain, but there is an element of validation combined with an extraordinary sense of being who you are "out in the world." Here, though, is where appropriate boundaries come into play, realizing that boundaries are moved with time and patience. Fourteen years ago, my wife would NEVER have imagined, much less agreed to, a wedding (a vow renewal ceremony) with me as the bride. She would have never agreed to the two of us standing on "'The'Las Vegas Strip" having photographic portraits taken, with me in a very feminine wedding gown, while thousands upon thousands of onlookers passed by. Yet, with time, it became her idea that we do this earlier this year -- and it was a sweet and meaningful service beyond my greatest of possible dreams!!!!!!! You cannot approach CDing with a selfish attitude!!! It is a growth thing that, if there is love, will happen given nurture, time, education, edification, and TLC!!!!!!!
For the most part I think you find this attitude in CDers who've reached a certain point in life, are not being able to express their femme side with the most important person in their life, and want to let their femme personna have some freedom; for right or wrong, they've been closeted for too long, and in the main, usually such is found where they have an SO who won't even begin to study what's what and see if they might meet them somewhere in the middle. I am not saying the individual CDer has lived openly regarding their CDing with their SO -- they well may have deceived their SO, which is absolutelywrong -- just that they have reached a point where life is starting to count down and they are saying, "no more -- I am who I am."
There are several things to be addressed within this last statement. First, you are right that often CDers are not emulating real women but rather an idealization of what is in their head. That image came from somewhere, and in my opinion, it came from past influences. A generalization is "they wear pantyhose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to." Pantyhose wouldn't be as popular as they are if nobody wore them. GG's wearing them is usually associated with the season (and locale). Plus, many GG's wear thigh highs instead of pantyhose when hosiery is needed -- and for good reason, especially the comfort factor. My wife would tell you that what she see CDers wearing that GG's get out of at the first opportunity are bras. But, she understands that GG's wear bras for specific reasons during the day and when she comes home and takes her's off asap, that this is usually the exact same time that I get into a bra.
I have commented several times before why I think so many CDers wear clothes that are "too young" for them. It is basically a psychological mud bog: when dressing became an extraordinarily strong influence, many CDers couldn't really dress much (if any at all, save the occassional underdressing). So, the CDer is stuck at that barrier (usually the late teen/early 20's "coed" age group) and when they become bolder (or get a green light to dress), that's where they head. This is where a supportive, patient SO can play such an important role in their CDers life!!! I know that my wife has worked diligently at teaching me how to dress in a more age-appopriate manner. I know it has been frustrating for her, but she has finally started getting through and is teaching me that age-appropriate clothing can be sexy and chic -- the only difference from what I used to wear being I can actually sit down without anybody knowing the color of my panties. ()
I'm not certain that this makes sense. I was under the distinct impression that "androgynous" was, more or less, neutral -- or perhaps better said, "between the two."
In archaic use, it meant a hermaphrodite, In modern ue, it means, "characteristics of both sexes." This comes from the word's Greek origin of "andros" = man and "gyne" = "woman." (Unfortunately many dictionaries are sorely lacking in fully explaining this.) All that said and definitional differences aside, it sounds like what you are really saying is that your SO wants an appearance that is neutral-but-leaning-towards-the-feminine." Could this be an attempt to reach some level of gender appearance satisfaction? If so, doesn't this give you a hint that what makes your SO who and what he is, is desperately attempting to find a way of expression?!!!
No, preferring cooking over sports is a non-issue when it comes to gender identity. And, what one plays with as a child is, likewise, a non-issue. I'm not sure what your point is, anyway. I have always loved to play baseball, football, and tennis; I've always been an avid hunter. Conversely, I loved pink, high heels, barbies, and cheerleading. Too much emphasis is put on what young males like and don't like to play with and/or do!!! Let's face one fact, though: a girl that likes to play baseball, climb trees, etc. is called a tomboy and society says there is nothing wrong with that. BUT, let the boy who likes to play with Barbie openly express this and it is off to the shrink to fix that kid's thinking!!!
I hope in some manner or fashion I have assisted your understanding.
As Carin told you . . .
It is abstract vs. reality -- and it isn't black or white, but somewhere on the grayscale between the two (and there are 256 shades of gray between the two).
[SIZE="4"]Sheri[/SIZE]
See relies in pink
I had a bunch of replies but then my computer crashed and I lost all of my hard work.
I'll do it again later, though, so expect to hear from me soon.
You need to think about it.
I never suggested otherwise.
Agreed.
Let me use height as an analogy. I hope you'll agree that people come in a range of heights.. I'm 5ft 8 (actually I might be slightly shorter now as I haven't measured myself for donkey's years but that's not the point). That makes me taller than some but shorter than others. It does not infer that that there's a huge gap in height amongst the population, say in the 5ft 10 to 6ft 4 range and that everybody's either 5ft 10 or under or 6ft 4 or over. It's a continuem. So is gender identity. Where ever you and I are on the gender continuem, there are people in between. Draw a line anywhere you like to seperate yourself from the majority of trans folk if you like but I can guarantee that somewhere there's someone who will confound whatever metrics you used to decide the position of that line. None of which is probably of any help to the OP.
Best Wishes
Paula
Warning: This product may contain Badger
Every girl crazy 'bout a sharp-dressed Badger.
"Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"
- Tony Hancock
You're right, Sobe. Anyone who says it's just clothes is in denial, dear. It's a gender condition, not a fetish.
What you think is VERY important. You are his compass, and probably the main thing that keeps him from loosing it completely. All of this point has to do with acceptance. If other accept you as who you outwardly appear to be, then the outside matches the inside, and all is well. Often, dressing in the house is not enough, but for many, it is. Depends.
Compromising transgenderism is like compromising the core of your personality. Thjere is a big difference between changing careers, which you can choose to do, and changing the core of your personality, which you cannot do.
You might find it easier to understand if one day you were not allowed to express yourself as female. Only work shirts, levis and work boots. No long hair, no makeup, no pierced earrings, in fact no earrings at all.
Now, take that one step further... suddenly, you are no longer female. You find yourself a male, but you are still female inside. Try and consider what that would be like... even then, you only get an imagining. All of the things that you love about yourself, you femininity... bearing children, pride in your body, inner happiness, GONE.
This is not due to upbringing, or preference. It is a core psychological issue. You could no more get him to compromise this than you could get your dog to walk on his hind legs for more than a few steps. We can try, but it is not our nature. The degree of the condition has everything to do with the degree of adaptability. Some can compromise, some can't. There is a big difference between "can't" and "won't."
CD's have very little to gravitate to, when it comes to being female. They have no hips, no breasts, no soft skin, no smooth legs, facial structure is likely off because of predominant eye brow ridges, square jaws, adams apple, large upper frame, deep voice...many of us, because of society cannot grow hair or pierce our ears. You assume that most of what you are is learned. I insist that makeup, pretty clothing, looking or feeling attractive is feminine because it is a demonstration of female. Men don't get it that women dress sexily because it is fun, not because they want to broadcast to males that they are available. (CD's do... at least many of us...) It's all part of projecting what it is to be female.
With CD's, there is very little to overcome that which is overwhelmingly projecting male. All there is, is what we can "put on" to overcome or hide maleness. Panty hose, feminine undergarments, wigs, makeup, all help overcome the overwhelming evidence that we are not what we are supposed to be.... They are also talismen of femininity. Like a crusifix to a Christian, it represents what being female is. All of these things are "off limits" to males. We endear these things because it helps us cross over, helps us to "be right and fix what we know is wrong with ourselves." The need to project female to some degree, depending on the individual, is very strong.
Add to this the idea that TG's have not been alloowed to develop emotionally. Many CD's are stuck in a pre adolscent limbo. All the things that you got to do when you werew a teenager... the experimenting with clothes, finding your style.... When they finally "get out of the cage" they have lots of caching up to do. They start by being the adolescents they were never allowed to be. In effect, every time you see a TG in a mini skirt, you see a teenager who has not yet caught up with her physical age. (sorry girls. My opinion.)
See above. If it was OK with society, we might be pleased with a pair of
These things are not, in themselves milestones of transgenderism. They are more like symptoms. Each thing, in itself, is nothing, but taken together, probably indicates alot. What makes a TG a TG is not that pink is a pretty color, or that Barbies are fun. What makes a TG is the way we think, and who we are inside.
There was a tv show about a little boy who had a circumsision gone bad, and his penis was gone. He's pretty famous, because a Doctor Money thought it best that he be raised a girl. He was, from a very early age. When he bacame old enough, he rebelled, and pursued a male path. I think most of your problem stems from the confusion about exactly what we are. We are not completely male in the head. There are 5 different axes that determine what we are as people... emotional, mental, physical logical, sexual. TG's are crisscrossed in some or most of these axes. If it were known, many, many people are. We exhibit these traits because we are what we are, and nothing can effect that, or fix that. No amount of compromise, deal making, therapy, behavior modification, can "fix" it. It is not to be fixed. We are all part of a broader "human condition" than is currently justbeginning to be recognized. If some of us can compromise, it has more to do with the degree of variance from the "norm" or the number of Axes that are affected. Some of us, despite how much we try, cannot compromise without becoming psychologically injured.
What you are after is for the boys to put away their toys when playtime is over. the problem is that we are not playing, we are trying to live out our lives the way that God made us.
Many years ago, people with varing psychological conditions or mind sets were at first considered posessed, then in later years placed in institutions... things like altzheimers, sczophrenia, bi-polar disorder, epilepsy, homosexuality, CP, Downs, etc.,etc. These are recognized these days as conditions that are either amenable to medication, or accepted as perfectly admissable and acceptable in society. Because we TG's have been so effective at hiding ourselves from shame and functioned in society despite our inability to fit in, we are considered funny and deviant. We are neither. We are The Way Things Are. Your inability to accept this or minimize is understandable. Your not fully understanding what it is to be like us is regretable. Your wanting to learn is commendable.
Don't blame him/her! (S)He tried to be a good citizen. Get married, have kids, deny what he cannot deny. He fell in love because you were special, and love has no boundaries. When the condition would not let go, anymore than you can change your eye color by choice, he is accused of being dishonest or manipulative, or disloyal. He was just doing what he was told, and the alternative was frightening, and would render him a social outcast.
Try and walk in his/her heels for a mile before you judge?
Thanks for listening.
Last edited by Cara Allen; 09-10-2007 at 02:45 PM.
So I turned myself to face me, but I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker,I'm much too fast to take that test.
And these children you spit on, as they try to change their worlds,
Are immune to your consultation, They're quite aware of what they're going thru!
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes David Bowie
[SIZE="1"]by Cara Allen[/SIZE]Cara
From my post (a few above this one) I gave Sobe some food for thought. Now, I'd like to suggest some things to you.
Suffering? This is just my opinion, but marriage is balance and that requires compromises and boundaries that get moved with time. If you are inflexible and hold forth that it is all to be the way you want right now, then there are other options than the two you are giving. My wife is as accepting as they come -- which, if you've read some of my posts about some of the things we've done, you might know -- but it took time to get there -- time, patience, and understanding as one or the other of us grew. I don't think that is suffering, but rather healthy respect and love as growth allows boundaries to be moved or removed. You don't sound willing to accept anything less than what you want -- want right now!
Many (most) GG's would have already told you to not let the door hit you in the rear with this attitude. Maybe I'm wrong, but what you say comes across as "take no prisoners." It is like "this is what I want and what she wants is going to take a back seat b/c I don't want to suffer."
I won't go into the specific other issues as I have addressed them above. I have given opinions that, for the overwhelming majority, are on your side! That said, it doesn't sound like the two of you have much of a chance! I'm trying to not point fingers, but I will note with all due respect that you don't come across as one who would work at your relationship first. I can't say how true Sobe is to gaining the acceptance you want and need. I do get the sense that any inconvenience to your agenda is unacceptable to you. If that is the case, so be it -- it IS your life. But, I will tell you that of those of us who have loving and accepting wives, I'd be willing to wager that 99.9% of us had to be willing to work at it -- with patience. Maybe you should keep looking b/c Sobe seems light years away from what you want!!! That's okay -- Sobe must be Sobe and you must be you!!! In the main, I don't see any of the major requsite components necessary for a happy and vibrant marriage. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it!!!
My best to you both!!!
[SIZE="4"]Sheri[/SIZE]
One problem is not knowing exactly it is that causes us to need to CD. There is some urge deep within that was triggered the first time we wore something designed for a woman. For me it was a nightie. And when I put it on, it just felt "right".
Note that when we fall in love, and "know" that this is the right person for us. someone to spend the rest of our life with. We don't know why we feel this way, we just know it's right. Trying to put into words what we know is right can be quite difficult, if not impossible. But when asked to, we make an attempt.
This is what occurs when someone says it's just the clothes. Many of us who have given this deep thought know it's not just the clothes. The clothes are a relief. Like aspirin relieves a headache. Like water relieves our thirst.
My wife asked, if it's just the clothes, why the need for a wig and makeup. I told her that we are all not the same, and I can be perfectly happy with a skirt and fem top, sans makeup and wig. She said, "Not with me you won't." Thus she answered her own question as to why some need the whole look.
So, basically it comes down to our level of being transgendered, or bi-gendered as some prefer. There is a need too complicated to explain, much less fully comprehend. Where this need comes from is anyone's guess. But the clothes and/or overall appearance for many of us is the aspirin that relieves this need.
I think the problem here is that Leah hasn't been out. She's read other trans folks making similar comments. So, she's really not sure what she needs, but knows she needs something, and since others have expressed a need to be treated as a woman, then maybe she is parroting this need.- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.
Maybe.
I need to go out. I go out fully enfemme, because my wife prefers I not be seen as a guy in a dress. So, maybe Leah doesn't want to be seen as a guy in a dress. For me, I could care less if I'm seen as a guy in a dress.
The thing in, I need to go out. Why? To be totally free. To not be suppressed by what society thinks I should wear. Maybe that's the reason. Maybe that's just my justification for wanting to go out. Maybe it's because growing up I knew that it was acceptable to be out. Accordingly, I was locked in a closet. Now the closet is unlocked. Do I make the closet as big as the house, or do I make it as big as the world?
I don't hate my male clothes. I don't hate looking like a guy. But there is still a need to go out, whether it's just in a skirt, or fully enfemme.
Note I keep saying need. IMO this is different from want.
And needs are just hard to explain. At least harder to explain than wants.
Yes, I am still trans. A CD. Whether I'm seen by anyone else or not.
But being human, don't we need to be around other humans? Why is that?
Maybe because we are social creatures. Most of us aren't hermits.
And being trans means we have a male self and a female self all rolled into one. Is it fair to the female self to deny it the social interaction it also needs? Can we truly be whole we we deny an innate part of who we are?
Compromise is a part of any relationship, because we are all different. Most of the things we compromise on, however, are our wants.- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.
"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."
Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.
I want a new car. She wants an SUV. I want a fast sporty car. Neither of us needs either one. We can always say we need a certain type car, but our life will not be affected adversely by compromising on the car. Maybe neither of us will be happy with the compromise, but our health, mentally and/or physically, will not be affected by the choice.
I compromised with my wife for many many years regarding my need to CD, and need to go out. It worked, for the most part. But then there came a time when the compromise didn't work. so we worked out another compromise. Now I go out once a month, as the need hits me.
This usually entails going down to a club in Richmond. My wife has been with me to this club twice. She had a good time there, but refuses to go out with me anymore. There is a TG night once a month. This past weekend was one of those months. Last month I didn't go, since she didn't want me to. This time she didn't want me to again. I've been through this before, and knew where this was headed. That is, no more compromise, I don't want you going out, period. I already compromise by not going out at other times.
So, I went.
Was that selfish? Not to me. Even though not going wouldn't have affected me mentally/physically, eventually it would. When I couldn't say. But I've been through it before. Do I hold off until I crack, then say f***it, and get dressed and go out locally? Really not a good idea.
So, compromise should be attempted. If it works it works. You can't know if it will work for you until you try. Just flat out refusing to even try to compromise is selfish.
There is a time, however, when compromise simply doesn't work. That's when there are only two choices.
For example, Leah wants to go out enfemme, you apparently don't want that to happen. Given only those two choices, how can there be compromise?
Compromise in this case can be, for example, based on where she goes. Or whether she goes out with you or not. Or how often she goes out. Compromise on her part is not going out anytime she want, or without you, or limiting herself to where she goes.
You're right. IMO. I believe people are just reading these things into the fact they are trans. As symptoms instead of just normal likes and dislikes. Again, this is probably due the fact that being trans is so hard to explain and understand.- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.
DonnaT
Sobe and Leah,
Jenni'sGirl GG made a very heartfelt post that spoke so very, very much about weathering a marital storm, in re crossdressing, and coming through it with a stronger and more vibrant marriage!!! The thread was entitled, "Hello there, it has been a long, long time."
One of the single-most significant posts to that thread was made by Satrana, who said, in part . . .
Not to put words in Satrana's mouth, but IMHO, she saw how both parties evolved!!! Satrana also said . . .
Both of you, IMO, need to ask yourselves what are your individual commitment levels -- what are your empathy levels?!!! Are you both wiling to seek balance and accept boundaries that will evolve with time??? It is a two-way street, but you both have to agree -- not unyieldingly demand but agree -- on your individual tolerances, where you each can commit and where you can't, and if you each are willing to work for the relationship, accepting the snags and snares that come with the territory.
[SIZE="4"]Sheri[/SIZE]
first of all I say "psuedo(?)-feminine" with respect to my appreciation and expression of the feminine. I intent to be humble, not sarcastic.
It isn't just clothes for me. Its is the interactivity I experience from my psuedo(?)-feminine persona that shifts my experience to a more happy and powerful place, eases me and expands my consciousness.
Precisely as I said. It is not what people think, it is how they interact with me, and how I interact with them, and how I interact with my ideas about people and spaces from my psuedo(?)-feminine perspectives is such a strong draw.- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.
Interacting from a more (psuedo(?))feminine place brings on a different set of emotional and functional perspectives and experiences. It begins to give real life and meaning, insight and habit, where the was previously only longing, imagination, and hunger. Carrying on human activities "in crossdress" makes it real.
It is also a relief, and at times, and escape from dealing with life from my basic-masculinish-EnHomme-persona.
I don't have an SO. I do have a live-in daughter and granddaughter, and the daughter thinks I'm an addictive, obsessive jerk that is endangering the development of my granddaughter around gender issues.- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises.[snip]
I ache and resent the compromises I make with her to limit crossdressing in MY OWN HOME. I feel crossdressing is "The next thing, the present thing" in my soul's development. Whether it proves to be a transitional stage to a more balanced psyche, or to a new gender assignment, or whatever, I feel the truth and rightness, beauty, and channeling of Love that is opened up through my life as Roberta.
It is like I saw the burning bush and this is what it told me to do. Speaking for myself, it is my way or the highway. The only reason I moderate my crossdressing around the home is that my commitment to support my daughter through college predates my expansion into crossdressing. That said, I'm feeling resentment in having to contain my self-expression...I'm really sad and angry about getting negative judgement...getting anything less than celebration and sharing of joy I have in CDing hurts.
It feels like anything less than wholehearted support for my CDing is a selfishness on my daughter's part.
I can see that my joy means so much to me, that I seldom consider how difficult it is for her to deal with the idea of her Masculine Role Model showing up as a CrossDresser.
I feel feed deeply in a good way, and sometimes the goodness is so good, I ASSUME that everyone else should get it.
I don't want to compromise. I want to fully experience this and move on. Compromising feels like retarding and perverting this process, which even I do not understand.
God how I wish my daughter were independent and I could be free of this friction !
I agree that I am mirroring my accumulated experience of women whom I respect and women whom I desire...I don't have any intention, presently, to emulate women I neither respect nor desire.- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.
I have accumulated my concept of womenhood as a man. I do get lots of insights directly from women, though. Especially since many women get their ideas about womanhood from the same channels as I did...though they were using a different research instrument...a more typically feminine brain/being.
I think it is reasonable to suggest my expression of womanhood is strongly influenced by stereotype and idiosyncratic fascination.
A big part of this is that I have to choose a picture and then emulate it. I cannot wear just anything and create that appearance of a woman. Women are a feminine canvas, and can paint anything or nothing onto it, and remain feminine beings. I paint a feminine picture (to the best of my ability, understanding, and stereotyped/peculiar skewed genius) upon a typically masculine, male canvas. So the image of womanhood I project must by nature of the intention and act of emulation be stilted subset of the full range of feminine self-expression.
Not a problem. When your guy wants to make that form of androgynous expression, he will. I think about this too. However, I am presently so entralled and gratified by playing in the intentionally psuedo(?)-feminine/womanly/girly zone of expression and interactivity, that moving into the androgynous zone can wait.- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?
One of my possible futures is thanking creation for my feminine adventures, and recrafting my base persona in a more fluid range between masculine and psuedo(?)-feminine...that is - androgynous. Yet, like I said...it can wait. I'm right where spirit calls me to be.
Can't agree more. This idea that femininity interferes with or diminishes the masculinity within a person, or the potential for it is without foundation.[snip]So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.
The seed of consciousness that this might be so grows from an aversion to masculinity, and projecting that onto the belief that selection of gender-energy is a zero sum game. That is, it is a manifestation of phobia, suggestibility, or slavish devotion to misinformation.
I participated a Roberta in my Men's Organization's 10 Year Anniversary Gathering this past weekend. Some men were startled, though no one questioned my masculine credentials, and I got great feedback about how my psuedo(?)-feminine energy and experience brought great pleasure, stimulation, and education to the weekend. Best of Both Worlds is the interweaving of all gender-energies (not excluding that there may be other gender-energies than masculine and feminine).
You are welcome....thanks for asking directly for what you want !Thanks!
Sobe
Roberta
Last edited by RobertaFermina; 09-10-2007 at 06:42 PM.
[COLOR=Red]Open your Heart :
Chantelle's Post resonated with me. I can sort of see him being the "model" or type" of crossdresser I am.
Kehleyr's on the other end of that spectrum struck me also, not because I share those feelings but because I don't. I also think that she has a good point about many of the inconsistencies I see in many Crossdresser's as they contemplate possible connection to Gender Identity Issues to their dressing. It is inconsistent with Transsexulism if one is and isn't a gender at any particular time or circumstances.
Now who noticed what I did there?
I purposely used different gender pronouns for the two extremes, and I hope neither is offended by my affixing labels for the moment. I think its important in terms of showing respect to others on here that we use pronouns most likely to be consistant with how that person is presenting, but that is based on appearance. I accept the pronoun of she for Barbara in the spirit it is intended, not as a label of my gender, but as a sign of respect for my freedom to choose this for myself.
Some are freeing the woman within, some guys like panties, others could care less about the panties but like what the skirt does to their natural cooling systems. Many many of us though have really no idea. Especially at first. Few of us are new to wearing women's clothes, but the wide range of possible why's on the menu is overwhelming.
I think its good and healthy and constructive for a CD to look at the girl in the mirror and wonder about these things. Personally, I think that even with my remarkable skill at self-deception and denial, that if I were as many have described it feeling trapped in the wrong body, "she" would be SCREAMING to get out. But thats me. On that basis it would be either one or the other or for all. Like either you are transsexual in every way, all the time and drab is really crossdressing against your own gender, or you are a purely fetish motivated crossdresser. (Or you are one of those and confusing yourself into the opposite category.)
My feeling is if you are playing the percentages, that if you have no idea which you would label yourself if only given the two choices, then I say the crossdresser is more abundant than the truly transsexual.
The reality is everyone has varying degrees of masculine and feminine traits and the sum of these is who we are. Who we is worth trying to find out but for many is not clear.
Back (finally) to the point of the thread as I see it is the essential question, "What phylum, genus and specie are you married to?"
You have no reliable way to tell.
He/she probably doesn't know either for sure. It sounds like he is in the process of sorting that out. It takes time and is of necessity stressful on the CD and generally (and often more so) stressful on the SO.
I wish you peace, and understanding between you that there not be ultimata given or resented till you can each make the decisions that benefit you each individually, and then as a couple. Best wishes.
Vincent Vega: Well, I confess that I wait to talk, but I am trying to learn to listen. (paraphrased)
Barbara's Blog
We wear what looks & feels best for us( with exceptions). Do all GG's emulate other women? There are women who wear pantyhose & not just for business wear. There are CD's like me who prefer thigh-highs for the look as well as for comfort. Why do GG's wear short dresses/skirts? For comfort and/or attention, same for us. And there are women who don't buy into the concept of "age-appropriate" clothing, which is just as made-up as the archaic idea of all females having to wear dresses or skirts. It's chauvinism to suggest at a certain age a woman must hide herself from view.
This isn't to deny that there ARE clueless CD's, such those who'd wear a full length ball gown with opera gloves to a casual club. Or those in need of a "fashion intervention" combining silver with beige/brown for example.
Couples therapy might help the two of you work things out, so each can get a better understanding of the other's needs. And if something is a big enough "deal-breaker" then show each other real love & end the romantic relationship.
My goodness, this thread keeps getting more and more interesting.
One of the points I caught was that gender was not simply a continuum, that it's more complex. I disagree, in part. I feel gender *is* a continuum, but what gender we see ourselves as is not the whole picture.
There's also our sexual orientation, and a whole bunch of personality traits.
Each is probably a continuum, but when you put them altogether you find that we're each a point on a multi-dimensional cloth.
So, we look at someone who CDs, and ask why? Is it their gender? Their sexual orientation? Their aesthetic style of dressing? Merely a comfort issue? And the answer is Yes, Yes, Yes ...!
There seem to be (at least from what I've read on this forum) so many reasons why we CD that it's enough to make a girl's head spin.
Crossdressing is an activity, a behavior, whose genesis is multi-faceted. To make it seem anything less detracts from it's beauty.
Life comes in all colors ... so please be kind to all you meet.
How do you know that most cder's aren't ts and what is a typical ts woman?
I'm off to see a thrapist tomorrow so it would be helpful to have your insight into this
"Every desire of your body is holy. Did you hear what I said? Every desire of your body is holy"
Hafiz "The Gift" Translations by Daniel Ladinsky
If both of you love and care for each other then neither of you should ever contemplate putting each other into such a scenario. You cannot have a loving relationship based upon a situation which generates misery and resentment. If no middle ground is practicable then the only solution is to compromise and agree to not agree, i.e. to look the other way and ignore the other. If the two of you work well together and the only sticking point is the crossdressing then this may work but is hardly ideal.
The advice almost always given to CDs is to wait, wait, wait. However as you point out, you have a life too which is being consumed waiting upon another. You are not being selfish wanting to see progress being made by your SO, so long as the rate of progress you seek is realistic. If you can see and feel that your SO is doing her best and is making progress then waiting some more is appropriate. On the other hand some SOs claim they just need more time but in truth have no intention of ever changing their minds so are just using delaying tactics hoping the CD will tire and give up.each day she spends coming to terms with it is a week I spend waiting for it.
You have to make up your own mind how much your SO is trying and whether sufficient progress is being made. It is not for others to second guess what is appropriate for you. Both parties have equal rights to have their needs considered, there is no higher ground here, neither is being more or less selfish than the other. The important thing is for both of you to empathize as much as possible with each other so that you both give the relationship the best possible chance of success.
My favorite definition: selfish - the total disregard of another's selfishness.
Sobe, You mention cder wearing 1950 type women's clothes. I am totally attracted, to the 1950s, and 1960s ladies fashions. Todays clothes don't do it much, for the most part. And, men have such a small choice, and boring clothes. Women have a rainbow, men have a grey cloud! As a single man, who's heart has been broken and crushed, many times, and never got a chance to marry, I dress up to look like the lovely lady, I never had. I know it sounds selfish, and crazy. At six foor six, I have always been attracted to very tall women, but, was usually turned down, or the friendship never went, or I was too poor, or emotionally ill. I dress up, and look in the mirror, at the tall lady, I wish I could have had, and now can be, for dressing sessions. We all have our quirks. I have never had sex, with a person, either! There are more of us, than anyone thinks. I know a number of men, in ther sixties, and 70's, who never married, or had sex! I am off topic, so will quit. Lucille
Kehleyr
Im not even going to reply to you.
Tell me people....How hard is it to believe, that everything that we all can feel, can be felt by both sexes??? Like love, anger, hate, fear, joy, and yes femininity, and masculinity!! A sense of feeling pretty, and handsome, are all feelings that can be felt by both genders. A young child can feel everything, before it can speak, just look at them and you can see they feel it. And yes for some male children can feel female feelings at a very young age, and this is where the feeling of TS come in. Now you can make all the excuses you want, but the fact is, it can all be felt by both sexes, where you choose to take it, revolves around OBSESSION!!! Face it its true. So many woman out there are struttin about like men, and vise versa, why????? because we all can feel the same things.
Now... you all can get your danders up if you want, because of what i said sparks fire in your veins, this is because you are going to DEFEND your choices in life!!! Everything i have read in reply to what i said before, shows me this!! But you cant hide from the fact, we all feel everything together!!! Feeling more will heighten your existence yes, become more whole, have a lot more energy to draw from, under more circumstances, yes, but to say i am a woman, when you were born a man, or vise versa, why??? because you feel it, what did i just say???? it feels natural???? duhhh how long have you focused on feeling this???? the more i dress the more natural it feels.... so i have to feel me more as well, or ill lose it, and become TS!!! WE all feel the SAME thing!!!!!! How hard is that to believe????
Now i feel for SO's out there, that partners go nuts because of this, Why on earth does a man show his self to a woman, and she falls in love with him, and then he flips a wig, and decides hes a woman now???? You really expect her to stay??? if she does she buys into this, its what i am crap!!! When all along you simply can feel what she does!!!! And you obsess to the MAX. Now im not or never said that its WRONG to become TS, now did i?? If thats what you like, go for it, Dont expect a woman to though!! give your heads a shake, let her go, and be with a man. Thats what she wants to be with!!! God!!
TS may not like CD's why is this??? ill tell ya why, because you TS dont like your maleness, i read this over and over again!!! CD's do!!! and that picks your BUTTS!!! WHY????? You think just because we dont hate our maleness, we don't feel FEMME like you do, how flippin ignorant is that??? I can go out and pass just as good or better than most TS can, and that picks your BUTTS too..... why???? BECAUSE we all feel the same thing!!!! Maybe you hate CD's because this is a fact, and you cant live with the choices you made!!!
Now you can reply all mad at me if you want....but i honestly don't think a thing will be said that doesn't show me what i just said isn't true!!! So go ahead and blab away. I say this not because i don't like TS, but because im sick and tired of listening to you belittling CD's because we can FEEL the same thing YOU DO!!!
LOL, I think you could repeat that a thousand times and the message will never sink in for many. Most people are so sold on the gender myth that men and women are fundamentally different that they refuse to accept we are all have the same feelings and thoughts. The differences we observe are culturally enforced, artificial rules and regulations to inform us what we are and are not allowed to express if we wish to conform. And we do want to conform because we are social creatures who crave acceptance.
I have a classic example. For years I had private CD fantasies in my head. Since there was absolutely no information on crossdressing to be had or contact with CDs, my private fantasies were 100% my own not influenced by anyone else. They should have been unique to me but when I eventually got around to purchasing a CD magazine in my early 20s I was shocked to find CD fantasies identical to my own, not just the general storyline but the details too. How could this be? This was my first insight that we are all fundamentally the same. I have had several more experiences since, each time reconfirming how people of any gender or race have exactly the same feelings and emotions. How these are blended together and mixed with cultural overlays makes us all individuals but we are all based on the same blueprint.
I don't know any of you as individuals but I know all of you as human beings no matter what label you attach to yourself.
If it were me, I would not want to be in a serious relationship with a woman who disliked my cross dressing. I like having my legs shaved. My cross dressing is very sexual. I do prefer women. There are women who like cross dressers. They are hard to find. But it is better to be single than be with a person who dislikes or is not comfortable with who you are.
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