One of the prices you pay for crossdressing

[Satrana]

However, I was so wrong for lying and keeping secrets about my cd'ing......I betrayed her and destroyed her trust by doing that and that is usually unrecoverable and never the same again.

Dear Lisa

You need to stop beating yourself up on this. You did the best you could given the circumstances and the lack of information. Did not your wife ask you to hide these things from her so she is implicit in keeping the cding a secretive pursuit. She also betrayed you by acting the way she did placing all the blame on you which you appear to have internalized. You cannot control how she deals with the ingrained prejudices she grow up with. Some people can overcome them, others cannot. The outcome would have been the same regardless of how truthful you thought you could be.

Or put it another way. If you had exposed every nook and cranny of your mind to her most likely you would have been divorced a long time ago and would not have had this long relationship or a beautiful daughter. Would that have been a better outcome? Were there not many happy and fulfilling moments for both of you that you would never want to dispense with?

If the two of you have indeed grown so far apart that the effort of forgiveness which is at the heart of every loving relationship is too much for her to give anymore, then it is time to move onto another place. Start looking forward and do not dwell on the past, you can still have a strong friendship and raise your daughter into adulthood together. You may even find that when the weight of marriage is gone the two of you may connect better than before.

[deja true]

...You may even find that when the weight of marriage is gone the two of you may connect better than before.

This is so true! I'm much better friends with a couple of former gf's than I ever was a partner.

It took a lot of soul searching and growing up to finally become aware of what a self-centered jerk I sometimes was!

Talk about arrested development!

Still, Lisa (and others), that you were able to make a real commitment as young people and raise good kids is a commendable thing....something I've missed out on so far!

[Margot]

lisa; your story is not unfamiliar to a lot of us here. However; some of what you have written to us indicates you are contrite in the realization that you have hidden away yourself from your wife. If you have not already done so sit and tell her a lot of what you have written here.
If you think therapy can help, keep it up if only to please your wife. 30 years is a lot of life to throw away without exploring all options.
Good luck
Margot

[kittypw GG]

Kitty, your personal anger is coming out, and it doesn't greatly help Lisa or her wife. Surely you've been around here long enough to know why some of us in our ignorance didn't tell all. Lisa is in her fifties, she married in her twenties. No great point in blaming her for the mistakes of her youth now. Coming out of the closet is not easy today; back in the 1970s it was damn near impossible.

And lay off the "not a real man" bit, please. You wouldn't be happy at any husband who refused to let his wife wear trousers because that made her "not a real woman", would you? Some of us are in painful enough situations without this confusion of the issues.

you know what? Secrecy and deception doesn't help Lisa and his wife either. Any marriage that is based on lies and deception is doomed to fail. Lisa should be happy that it lasted so long. But I will say again, who gives back Lisa's wife all the time she invested in the future she thought she was getting? I'll bet you she did not fantasize about two old women rocking on the porch together. I'll bet you, Lisa lead her to belive that she would have a very different future after the kids were grown!

I don't give a crap what it was like in the 70"s. Hey I graduated in 1977. People were just as honest with eachother maybe more than now. That is a damn cop out.

When you cd's don't trust enough to tell the truth about yourselves and you find out that you loose trust in the very people you say you love.... well all I have to say is DUH.........................................

Lisa should get down on his knees and beg his wife for forgiveness and offer some solutions to work it out. If you are fresh out of ideas, well I guess that it really is not worth either partners time.

Just my opionion. Lots of relationships should end way before they actual do anyway. If more people had the guts to just be honest (and I mean on both sides of the fence) Maybe there would be more happy people on this planet.

Kitty

[ReineD]

Kitty, you and I are friends .. we've had our differences in the past , but who doesn't?

I got my dander up in this thread too, except it was with Lisa's wife. There was too much about the situation that reminded me of my ex, and I was less than charitable with one of my comments about a facet of her wife's character. I'm pointing this out because it is all too easy at times to read our own circumstances into other peoples lives, when in reality we are only presented with a few meagre paragraphs of facts, which are presented from only one of the two points of view involved. It is impossible to get an accurate picture, given all the information, history and the nuances that we cannot know. I don't thing any one of us is capable of getting the true "big picture" for any given couple.

We all have different issues and fears to deal with, and I believe most people generally do the best they can under whatever circumstances they are presented with. I do not want to speak unfavorably against Lisa's wife again, but we do not know what mistakes, if any, she has made as well, and as Lisa pointed out, there are other factors than the CDing that are affecting the marriage.

I agree that honesty is best, and in my own case I do strive to tell the truth, but I also admit that I have not always been completely honest in my own life. Or sometimes the truth has come out, but later for a variety of reasons. Making mistakes is a part of the human experience, and I have made my share (you are familiar with my story). But it does hurt when the people in my life don't let me forget them, even though I have corrected those mistakes years ago.

Again I do agree with your position that SOs are not well served by being lied to, but eventually when they are presented with the truth, they do have options. One of them is deciding to do their best to accept the CDing and move forward with the marriage. The other is deciding they cannot, as in this case, and the marriage dissolves. Either way, the issue stops being about the lies since Lisa's wife has known about the CDing for quite some time, and become more about whether the couple can meet somewhere in the middle. But, as you are well aware with the awful circumstances involving your own ex, it takes two people to do this.

[lisa_vin]

Hi to Everyone!

When I put this thread out here I fully expected a wide range of responses both positive and negative. However, this has obviously touched a very sensitive area in some people and to those I am truly sorry to have taken you back to such a painful place in your lives. In retrospect, I should have titled this thread "One of the prices you pay for crossdressing, deception and lies" because deception and lies were used on my part to hide it from her until she "found out". I asked her that if she knew about my cd'ing before we got married would she have married me and she said most definitely not so we started off this marriage based on my deception and lies. Heck, I'd been doing this since I was about 5 but had absolutely no idea this was a part of my persona, of who I am, and therefore a lifetime sentence! I honestly thought that once we were married that this burning built-in urge/desire/need/craving would lessen and go away.....I'd be cured! How wrong I was to think that and to place that kind of pressure on my wife without her knowing. If I could go back, if I could change things, if the world was perfect, if WE were perfect.......if......if.......if.......if.......I F you've never uttered that word in your life then you've probably never made a mistake and, therefore, are probably not human!

When talking about lies and deception it is very important to remember that this road almost always travels in both directions. I refuse to go into a major trashing mode here against my wife but I will say, only to level this playing field, I have had to endure and forgive 3 known affair attempts, 2 of them before she "found out" about me and the third one just a couple of months ago so please "judge not lest ye be judged". I've never even BEEN with another person in my entire life......she's my one and only......even though I've been tempted in the past I've always refused! There are a couple of other issues in our marital crisis as well but I won't go into those.

None of this behavior on either side is right but it is human! You've heard or seen the statement "To err is human, to forgive is divine". Well, this IS another road that SHOULD travel both directions but quite often does not! There are obviously limits to forgiveness for human beings and they vary from person to person!

I DO believe that honesty IS the best policy but at what price? If that honesty costs you a friendship or relationship then thats one price. But what if that honesty could cause a brutal, devastating hurt, permanent psychological damage or even worse - death from a suicide? While I agree that total honesty is best, judging WHEN to use it IS sometimes better!

It's not a perfect world and it never will be!

[Melinda G]

Women know that crossdressing is sexually driven. And they want to be number one in your life. No offense, but what would be your reaction, if you found a dildo and a vibrator hidden in your wifes stuff. Hurt? Anger? Why does she need this stuff?

[mklinden2010]

***Women know that crossdressing is sexually driven. And they want to be number one in your life. No offense, but what would be your reaction, if you found a dildo and a vibrator hidden in your wifes stuff. Hurt? Anger? Why does she need this stuff?


My reaction to finding such things?

"Hey, Christmas came early!!!"

But, you ask, "Why might she need those things?" What, are you serious? Clearly, she likes sex! I AM NOT going to try to talk her out of that! "Ahem. Perhaps I could be of assistance?"

And, actually... women don't know that (All?) crossdressing is sexually driven - any more than anyone else does. It's just not that simple. If it was, "sex and a nap" would be all there was...

(And, that would still be a lot...)

[lisa_vin]

Hi Melinda!

Actually, she has those things and I don't have a problem with it at all as long as it makes her happy! I'm quite open-minded and tolerant to many things and am more than willing to discuss and compromise on pretty much anything. Hey, I'm a cd'er......what kind of person would I be to deny her happiness or pleasure after what my cd'ing has done to her. No two people's tolerance and acceptance levels are the same and, for me, EVERYTHING is negotiable but not necessarily agreeable!

[TxKimberly]

Oh Lisa, I am so sorry. I just can't imagine the end of a 30 year relationship. My heart goes out to you.

One thing this thread has brought to the surface and made clear is that all of us are human.
We all have feelings, some more tender than others.
All of us have hurts and wounds, some a bit fresher than others.

Regardless of the reasons, regardless of who and what we may think is to be blamed, a 30 year relationship and marriage is in serious peril and apparently ending. Let's all try and keep that, and the pain that goes with it, in mind and be respectful of that here.

This is not where we should make accusations against Lisa or her wife, pointing fingers and assigning blame. This is where we should be hugging Lisa and her wife (were she here) and mourning the end of their marriage.

[Satrana]

While I agree that total honesty is best, judging WHEN to use it IS sometimes better!

Wise words indeed. I wish people would get off their high horses with all this honesty nonsense. Everyday we all massage the truth in order to manage our relationships with others. We deliberately omit details or choose words to provide a different complexion or context on the topic to lessen negative feedback or to gain positive reactions.

People would be at each other's throats if we actually always told the truth. Life does not work that way so to keep harping on about total honesty achieves nothing. It is unreachable and ironically undesirable.

I don't need to know anything about Lisa's wife to know that over the many years of their relationship she has lied and deceived Lisa many times because she is human and that is what we do.

And what gets me the most is that we all lose sight of the most important fact of all. What exactly is so wrong with a man expressing his femininity? Nobody has yet explained why this is a bad thing. If we can all agree that women enjoying all the traditional roles of men in society is a great improvement and we encourage our daughters and wives to chase their dreams, why the negativity over feminine men?

So lets just keep reminding ourselves that the ultimate cause of the rejection of feminine men is just ingrained social prejudice, or to put it more bluntly sexism. And while everyone has the right to their own sexist viewpoints in their relationships, lets all agree that this is a backwards step that would best serve humanity if it were to be eliminated with open-mindedness and accepting people the way they are rather than the way we want them to be.

[kittypw GG]

What exactly is so wrong with a man expressing his femininity? Nobody has yet explained why this is a bad thing. If we can all agree that women enjoying all the traditional roles of men in society is a great improvement and we encourage our daughters and wives to chase their dreams, why the negativity over feminine men?

So lets just keep reminding ourselves that the ultimate cause of the rejection of feminine men is just ingrained social prejudice, or to put it more bluntly sexism. And while everyone has the right to their own sexist viewpoints in their relationships, lets all agree that this is a backwards step that would best serve humanity if it were to be eliminated with open-mindedness and accepting people the way they are rather than the way we want them to be.

I will attempt to answer this question and try not to be so angry. First there is nothing wrong with a man expressing femininity. I love a man to be caring, giving and nurturing. I don't mind when a man has all the qualities I express.
But what we are talking about here is not a simple expression of femininity.

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

Second there is a little matter of sexual attraction and it has nothing to do with and "ingrained social prejudice". For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Put a feminine man in a dress and 3 in heals and you might as well forget any sexual attraction unless you are bi-sexual or gay.
I considered myself open minded and I am very heterosexual and let me tell you it took a lot to muster up any sexual attraction to my ex enfeme. That is the honest truth. And damn it I gave it my all too. My ex didn't even know that I was secretly wishing for it to be over. I might add that he did nothing to satisfy my fantasies in return, I just got more crossdressing for my acadamy award performances. When self absorbtion is all one can muster, it doesn't take long for a partner to just plain wear out and give up on the relationship.

What is exactly wrong with feminine men? Nothing if.... they give you the whole picture of themselves and are up front and honest about who they REALLY are. If...... they are mentally healthy. If..... they have perspective and live balanced lives. If .......... they want to have a healthy sexual relationship with a genetic women. This, unfortunately was not my experience nor is this the experience of many other partners of CD's. Why is it that a lot of us gg's have the same complaints?? I find that sort of curious.

From what I have experienced most wives that find out have tried to accept and grow with their partners with this thing called crossdressing. I find that the gg's have really been doing most of the homework and put most of the elbow grease into the relationship and get secrecy, silence, retribution in the form of accusations about being intolerant and unaccepting, sex drive on the cd's part seems to be comprimised due to a) just low sex drive b) self induldgence c) obsessive thinking d) have know idea why

So as you can see this is really not about a man simply expressing femininity.
Nor does it have anything to do with "ingrained social prejudice". I sort of resent this by the way.

Lisa I am very sorry that the women you loved betrayed you by seeking love outside of your marriage. I have no excuse nor explaination for that sort of behavior. I personally would end the relationship before doing such a thing but that is me. I am mature enought to know that not everyone follows the same moral code.

It is a damn shame that 30 years are about to go down the toilet. My ex's father, after 49 years of marriage, was asked in a questionaire when he was in the hospital if he had a good marriage? He said NO. As far as I know he was not a crossdresser. It is sad and unfortunate to have lived in an unhappy marriage for 49 years so maybe you can consider yourself lucky that you will have your freedom 19 years sooner.


Kitty

for you.

[curse within]

Lisa,

I know what you are going through...sorta..I knew my wifes feelings about my desires to dress she was not thrilled with it at all..I could only imagine if I was to have had a bag of goodies hidden away some where for her to stumble into.. There seems to be an important piece of this everyone keeps over looking.. That piece is you wife has rights to accept or not to accept ,,it is her call and you or anyone else for that will never change that..

If you feel woman enough to slip into the goodies you hide then you must be prepared to except the risk or price you pay when you get caught.. What I am trying to get across to you is...Your dressing does damage to you in your wifes eyes she can only take so much ,the breast forms and wigs tilted her over board. It isn't just about you in a marriage or relationship and as most may not see dressing no matter how often,or how far you take it is harmless it may not be the same for your partner..

I think several things here you did wasn't a good thing to do. Fist knowing full well how you wife felt about your desiers you still against her wishes acted on them, that hurt her...You broke in my opinion a trust issue by hidding this from her ,if this was something you really needed to do you should have consulted her in a way that wouldn't have pushed it into the attic , by telling her you have the goodies.. If you had been in the open and said these desires are to strong and ifyou can not accept it the end result could have been different she would have felt more involved, even if a short seperation was needed..

Crossdressers seem to forget how some S,O,s feel about dressing and we make it worse by hidding it..Lets not forget if we are trying to sell this as part of us something we can not help from doing you have to be open to those it effects..By hidding it makes you S.O. think you are hidding other things as well ..Things like just how far are you going to take this?

Best of luck Lisa

[Sara Jessica]

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

Wow, there's so much going on in this entire thread, not to mention Kitty's honest posts. But this quote really struck me. Ninety-nine-point-whatever percent of the population cannot even fathom what it's like to be transgendered, no matter whether your talking about CD'ing or being TS or anywhere inbetween. For me, this issue is the focal point of my being.

The average person...

• cannot imagine what it's like waking up uncomfortable in your own skin
• cannot comprehend the constant noise in the background of the mind as this condition is ever present
• doesn't have to wake up each and every morning feeling hope that maybe TODAY the most important person(s) in my life will find it in their heart to gain more acceptance and/or understanding about who I am

Yes, I pretty much described myself above but your statement that "we don't understand it period" is so spot-on. This in and of itself is such a huge hurdle to overcome and often leads to the deception that everyone seems to rail about. This is something the average person simply cannot relate to.

Lisa, I have been "out" about this to my wife since before we were married. She knew going in, she does the best she can with it, and I am grateful for that because my love for her and my family is beyond what words could convey. Yet this doesn't even mean that a lifelong commitment with someone who is tg is remotely easy. All it really means for me is that there's no need to sneak around and worry about getting "caught". There is so much good advice, and even spirited dialogue above for you to get your head around. I wish you the best as you deal with this most difficult situation.

[sallyjones]

i know that this is part of all of us, or we wouldnt be on this site. it is not something we can change. i hope this gets worked out for you.

[Intertwined]

im a jack/jill of all trades and can build you a house while wearing a skirt and 4 inch heels,,,

You ARE hurting someone when you lie and deceive them!! Marriage is now, and always has been, a two way street. Or better stated, a two person situation. Honest and open communication must always be the way to handle things. And that means from the very beginning, BEFORE the marriage.

Obsessedwithpanyhose, You go girl, im also a jack/jill of all trades, expert at only one(my current job, enough said)

Sissytephanie is exactly right, words, lies, can hurt as much as fists can. For my wife, its a trust issue. But, its also hard for us to be honest and upfront about something, when they do not want to hear us talk about it (keep it to yourself), and then they find out about it, and get upset about it because they didn't know. Whats that phrase? "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

[valenstein]

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Put a feminine man in a dress and 3 in heals and you might as well forget any sexual attraction unless you are bi-sexual or gay.

- I don't know why I am this way, it is not easy to explain a topic you don't understand. For many years I figured it was just a little kink I had, and eventually it would get pushed out of my mind. I had tried to tell my SO early on in our relationship, but it didn't go well, so I buried it and forgot about it. It burst out of me like a volcano without warning a few years ago, and I knew I had to tell her, and I did. It took me finding someone who I knew would accept all of my personality traits to bring it back to the surface.

A few years ago, my gf painted my toenails one day on a whim, it woke up something in me I found nice. Why can't I find pleasing men's clothes? I do, even those clothes society isn't satisfied. I loved watching Wonder Woman as a kid and have a men's shirt with Wonder Woman on it. One time a woman asked me if my gf minded that I was wearing a Wonder Woman shirt, it hurt just a little. I had a pair of purple Doc Martens I thought were really cool, my Grandfather remarked that "gay guys like purple". As a kid, sexuality and gender never entered my mind when I liked playing with my sister's Barbie dolls as much as I liked playing with my Hot Wheels. Neither were a factor the very first time I crossdressed, I was 8 and put on an old blouse I found in a closet. I liked the way it looked, it was different. I did know I wasn't supposed to wear it, but I did not know why. What is acceptable? I am fine being a guy who likes things associated with women, but that's not tolerated by society.

Things are ingrained into males that have no real basis in gender, it is society. From a young age we are taught that crying and showing emotion is a weakness, and to never show it, that everyone is your adversary and you need to do what is necessary to get ahead. Being social with your friends means making fun of them and never talking about how you feel. My parents taught me the opposite, but it was apparent in nearly every boy I knew. How does one go through life being a volcano? Keeping that stuff in when puberty hits and all you think about is sex and aggression? I watched guys slam kids heads into walls just because it would make them look like a "real man" to their friends. If I dropped a ball during P.E. and the other team won, I got punched. I would stand between a bully and one of my friends if they were threatened, even if I knew I would get my butt kicked. I care for my animals and have never even THOUGHT of raising my hand to a woman, much less doing it. I feel like more of a real man than most guys I know, even when I'm wearing lipstick.

I've only met two gay guys that were attracted to me in a dress, and I know a lot of gay guys. Most gay men I know are attracted to the same guys women are, or they go for the uber male type.

I should have told my girlfirend sooner, but I didn't know what was in me. I didn't have the answers and I couldn't explain it. I do know that if I feel ashamed by it, it recesses into me and I can't talk about it. I poured out everything that was in my heart the night I told her, if she had rejected me, I would have died inside.

I don't feel like I was lying by not telling her before. I do feel it was a mental failure on my part in my inability to deal with it, to understand it, to explain it. I was hiding it, maybe I was being dishonest, but I was far more dishonest with myself than I was with her. I didn't know how to tell the truth until I knew what it was.

[linnea]

So it's their fault?? hahaha That's a great statement... They didn't sign up for this knowingly so I wouldn't blame any of them including my wife who found out almost the same way for diviorcing them, us... me... in a heartbeat....

Yes, I agree with Karren. However, I think that it is possible to work through these shocking revelations when they happen. I have not done it; I'm too chicken to bring it up myself (though I have made some tiny progress toward telling my daughter and another relative). If and when I tell or I'm caught, I hope that my SO will have the patience and willingness to deal with it.
I don't believe that CDs are sick or perverse, but some--like me--have lived deceitfully, and as has been said on this forum many times, the deceit is often the WORST of the situation with our spouses or SO's.
I hope and pray for every secret CD that their relations will endure and prevail over the negatives involved in hiding their other -selves.

[kimberlyt221]

And that is an important thing to remember especially for those who entered into a relationship before the widespread use of the internet, basically any time before the turn of the century. Almost all CDs were completely isolated and unable to understand their own feelings and thought themselves the worst freaks alive. To condemn anyone who found themselves in such a predicament is to be devoid of understanding and empathy.

Similarly when you know that others will almost certainly consider you a freak and hate you for being so, exactly what about that is going to encourage you to open up? It is only human to avoid the pain such prejudices bring.

How many people would so readily condemn a woman who decided not to reveal her childhood abuse? All CDs are victims of society's intolerance which leads to self loathing and guilt. While we should overcome these feelings ourselves, a little compassion from others would not go amiss.

Just what I was thinking! When I brought it up to my SO, it took me 20 minutes just to start talking. I still feel a deep rooted shame, and horrible embarrasment. I'm still pretty much in the closet, but she knows I've done it in the past. It's not fun here, and I rarely dress anymore. But I THINK about it constantly!
I guess it's not going to be as easy to give up as I was hoping

[billie earls]

There are so many different issues in this thread as there are CD's. If we look at the trust issue only we are are looking at is this something that must be told at the time of dating, but those of us who are older and have been dong this for eons it was not something we could talk about, there wasn't the internet and sites like this that could help us in so many ways. I've been married over 30 years and I would never tell my wife because it would hurt her and my kids, and they are the most important things to me. I have never known a CD so I never had anyone to talk to, I keep my feminine items well hidden and only take them out when its safe. After doing it for over 50 years I think I know how to do it. At times I was really tempted to do it but sanity over came me and for that I'm glad.
Would I like to have a relationship with someone in my feminine attire, yes I would but there is just something inside me that will not let me do it. Maybe someday but for now its the closet and the web site.

[Tess]

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women? Men who are confused and can't even explain why they obsess about this matter. Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves. Heck what is it that we have here anyway????? I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

Second there is a little matter of sexual attraction and it has nothing to do with and "ingrained social prejudice". For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive. Put a feminine man in a dress and 3 in heals and you might as well forget any sexual attraction unless you are bi-sexual or gay.
I considered myself open minded and I am very heterosexual and let me tell you it took a lot to muster up any sexual attraction to my ex enfeme.

I think Kittypw GG nails this issue very well. It certainly has been the way I have imagined GGs feel about male CD's. Obviously there are exceptions but the vast majority fit this description and I can't blame them or write off their behavior as sexism, religious fundamentalism, or whatever. It's nature, just the same as why many of us say we CD. Honesty might help find the rare GG who will accept or support our behavior, but that horse has already left the barn for many of us older CD's. It was unthinkable when we met our future wives.

[Jennifer Cox]

:boo:

You're right, Sheila. The situation reminded me of my own and I let my anger rise to the surface. My apologies to all, especially to Lisa's wife. The comment was not directed at you, but rather to my ex.

It surprised me too - until I realised that you probably could just have easily been referring to my wife It was very perceptive but unfortunately inappropriate, as you've graciously admitted.

I'd also like to add that I think this has been an excellent thread, with some very good comments - just such a shame that the outcome's not been a happier one!

[Cassia-Marie]

This is the first problem. We don't understand it period.

So much in this thread hits so close to home for me. Understanding something like this for either side is so extremely difficult. I'm amazed at the open, honest, and loving relationships that some of you have with your wives (and pretty jealous, too). Like Ivy, I've always thought it was just a kink or a simple fetish - something that I could drop at any time. I'm reaching my late 30's (okay, to be honest, I'm 39 today ) and after almost 40 years, a failed marriage, and another I've lovingly been in for the past 10 years, I can look back at my life and realize I've been lying to myself and everyone around me. That alone is tough to come to terms with. How does one undo 40 years of deceit? How does one even begin to live their life seemingly all over again after such a time?

There's a lot of research I've studied recently about gender dysphoria and the affect it can have on an individual and their relationships. Most people (like myself) who haven't come to grips with it until their middle-age years experience Depression and/or Generalized Anxiety Disorder. They have panic attacks, irritability, sleeping disorder, inability to concentrate, impulsiveness, weight loss, and their job performance suffers. OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is also prevalent and is probably a result of needing an outlet for their gender expression deprivation anxiety. Suicidal thoughts or other such strong impulses ultimately loom and cloud out any and all rational thought.

All of this hits at a time when family and career are as firmly rooted as they are ever going to be. Thoughts of starting over as a member of the opposite sex become seemingly impossible. The responsibilities we've accumulated make us feel entrapped and enslaved to an ideal we've come to despise.

I'm not asserting that the need to crossdress is a mental illness. I do believe, for me anyway, that the debilitating disorders I listed above (and from which I have suffered) are a direct result of or, at the very least, exacerbated by my and society's efforts to impose an aesthetic and behavioral set that, for whatever reason, every fiber of my being opposes. I can't really explain why I enjoy dressing and behaving like a woman or why it has hit me recently like several tons of bricks after 8 years of thinking I'd "outgrown" it - it just is what it is. What I can do, though, is recognize the desire and do what I can to live with it. The alternative is to go the other way and ultimately destroy myself and risk seriously hurting others.

I've gotten help for the symptoms (anti-depressants) but the underlying cause is still there and, unfortunately for me, must remain there for all intents and purposes. For me, the reason I continue to lie is, ironically, because I'm basically a kind, gentle, and compassionate human being and, society being the way it is, telling the truth would almost certainly destroy my life and the lives of many of those around me. I simply cannot and will not subject myself, friends, and family to the criticism and ridicule that would incur. So I continue to lie. The status quo is simply too valuable right now to do otherwise.

So after this long reply, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to cut those that feel the need to lie a little slack. No, a LOT of slack. If we're doing the best we can with what we have, then back off and let us keep trying. In fact, a little help would be appreciated. I can almost certainly guarantee that you'll get even more in return than you put into it.

[Satrana]

What we have here are men who want to presnt as women. Men who want to secretly be women?

Go back a few decades and the same questions would have been asked of women who wanted to be CEOs, adventurers, politicians, soldiers etc

Men who can't explain why they can't find pleasing men clothes to express themselves.

So why didn't women just stick to female clothes?

I can't even wrap my mind around it because I have never had a single thought about being anything other than a girl nor dressing as such nor acting as such because I am a genetic girl. I can't even relate to such feelings.

Therein lies the problem. Not being able to relate to being stuck in a rigid gender role because you yourself have lived in a period where women's gender roles have quickly evolved allowing access to everything once considered to be only masculine.

CDs are the first men - alongside gays to some extent - to challenge the male gender definition. This makes us the equivalent of the suffragettes in that we are challenging something which mainstream society does not believe needs to be changed.

Second there is a little matter of sexual attraction and it has nothing to do with and "ingrained social prejudice". For most women, feminine men are not sexually attractive.

Sorry you are wrong, the characteristics deemed to be attractive in the opposite gender changes from culture to culture. Indeed if you had lived 200 years ago in high society you would have found men plastered in make-up, wigs, lace and frills, tights and high heels very attractive.

And if tomorrow men were allowed to freely dress in female clothes then future generations of women will find men in LBDs very sexy too.

The fact that many women today do not like feminine men is largely the product of our society, hence it is an ingrained social prejudice since it results in men having to stick to the narrow male gender role in order to be found attractive to women.

The issue at the heart of present day CD relationships is how able or willing is the woman to overcome and re-orientate her mind to accept and be attracted to feminine men while the rest of society is unaware and unaccepting of feminine men. It means women have to be prepared to move to the fringe of society and face the same prejudices aimed at CDs. It takes strength and devotion to agree to do this especially with the lack of information and support that has plagued the CD community.

Why is it that a lot of us gg's have the same complaints?? I find that sort of curious.

On the other hand a lot of CDs have the same complaints about GGs. We have two groups who are unable to meet on common ground.

[kittypw GG]

Satrana,
Go right ahead and balme everything under the sun. Is it getting you anywhere with gg's? Is it stopping divorce?

The bottom line is that we all have to answer to our own behavior. If you behave in a way that is unplesant (lie, sneek around, act obsessively, spend money selfishly out of the family budget, take yourself out of activities with the family to crossdress, blame "your" partner for "your" short commings, wallow in self pity, indulge in fantasy/pronography instead of spending time with real people or "your" family, continually push established boundries, stop intimacy/sexual relations, replace the man in "your" partners life completly with a faux female, especially outside of "your" partners comfort zone, etc) you are going to have a roller coaster life and it should not be a surprise when the important people in "your" life distance themselves from "you" and the important relationships in "your" life fail.

Kitty