We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

[Rachel Morley]

Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what? To me, this is a somewhat touchy subject so I am going to tread really gently here and just share an opinion I have about the way I think about this. IMHO (yes I am saying this as humbly as I can) if you consider "crossdressing" as wearing clothes that are designed for and manufactured in styles that are meant for that gender's body shape then I do think the person, either male or female, (in its literal term) is crossdressing if they wear the opposite gender's clothes. So when Sandra says:

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not. Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us.

I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.

But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:

I agree very much. Male crossdressers are being singled out because societal prejudice forces many to emulate women because we dont feel right being seen as a man in a dress. Remove the prejudice and stigma and we would end up with new generations of men naturally integrating feminine clothing into their presentation just as women do with men's fashion.

Either all men and women are crossdressing and none of us are. I dont like how people want to distance women's use of male clothing and claim it is something completely different. It isn't, it the just the prejudice that creates the gap and resulting differing behaviors.

I said it already, but I will say it again! If you wear any clothing made for the opposite sex, you are crossdressing. That is true whether you are male or female! And the reason for wearing the clothes makes no difference! Yes, some women do wear mens pants and shirts. They are crossdressing, but they get away with it because the public is used to that.

These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me (however, I do wear obvious girly clothes but still present as a guy all the time ) but when we've previously talked in other threads about what was the definition of "crossdressing" no one said you had to feel a certain way or not feel a certain way to be a crossdresser. If I remember correctly most people talked about wearing clothes that were designed for the opposite gender being the defining factor. So in that sense, IMO both men and women can and do crossdress but it's socially acceptable for one and not the other.

Now before I get lampooned, I do recognize that when a guy crossdresses it's almost certainly different for him (how he feels when he's doing it) than when a woman crossdresses (wears clothes that are designed for a man) but that's not the point I wanted to demonstrate. I was talking about the fact that "technically speaking" women can and do crossdress, but it's accepted in society as not being a problem, and I'm ok with that, I just wish that in this particular case, what was good for the goose was also good for the gander! Just my :2c:

[Melinda G]

It's not so much that I am trying to fool anyone, or present as a female. I have no interest in men. I just enjoy wearing womens clothes, and I don't care for the "Budweiser Boys" look. Therefore , I have to look somewhat passable to avoid looking stupid.

[JohnH]

I do have my hair long enough so it looks passable on a woman. And I am not flat chested, and I also have hips. So I really don't have to do a whole lot to look acceptable wearing a dress.

Johanna (John)

[Alice Torn]

Like Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?" When i wrote , that women don't think about cross dressing, when they put on male type clothes, what I should have wrote, was, it is not an issue with them, anymore, since society accepts it, and, it does not even enter their thoughts. By the way, I have several lesbian friends, who dress like men, and i look at the heart, as God does, not the outward appearance! Can't we all just get along?

[sissystephanie]

Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what? To me, this is a somewhat touchy subject so I am going to tread really gently here and just share an opinion I have about the way I think about this. IMHO (yes I am saying this as humbly as I can) if you consider "crossdressing" as wearing clothes that are designed for and manufactured in styles that are meant for that gender's body shape then I do think the person, either male or female, (in its literal term) is crossdressing if they wear the opposite gender's clothes. So when Sandra says:
I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.
But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:
These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me.

I have said this too many times already, but I will say it again! Crossdressing is a fashion statement, plain and simple. If you wear clothing designed and made for a sex different from your own, you are crossdressing. SANDRA knows this! She was referring to women who wear pants and tops that are designed and made for women, and are called crossdressers!! They are NOT crossdressers, simply becasue they are wearing clothing that is made for them!!

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

[Shananigans]

Crossdressing is a fashion statement, plain and simple.

I wasn't aware that it was a fashion statement plain and simple.

[JulieK1980]

I wasn't aware that it was a fashion statement plain and simple.

Maybe for a drag queen?

For many of us though it's a tad bit more....

[Melinda G]

After wading through five pages of reponses to this thread, I'm left with one over riding thought. Who cares!

[Shananigans]

I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...

Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.

I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.

Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.

Is he CDing?

I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.

NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?

After wading through five pages of reponses to this thread, I'm left with one over riding thought. Who cares!

If you really waded through 5 pages of responses to the thread, you'd probably come to the conclusion that quite a few people care.

[JulieK1980]

I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...

Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.

I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.

Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.

Is he CDing?

I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.

NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as:
CROSS-DRESSING: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex
— cross–dress intransitive verb
— cross–dress·er noun

So by technicality, yes it would be crossdressing. However, life isn't so technically correct. There is a lot of grey in between the black and white. A lot of this debate revolves around perception. That's why no one really comes to agreement. What is a crossdresser to me is not the same as what a crossdresser is to you, and multiply this by however many people are responding to this thread.

In my opinion, it goes way beyond the simple wearing of clothes for MOST of us. (Not all) If they marketed a bra for men for example, I would probably still buy the bra meant for a woman.

[sissystephanie]

Shananigans, if a lady is wearing men's pants she is a crossdresser, regardless of what else she is wearing. The same is true of a man who dresses masculine except for a feminine top. That is definitely crossdressing! Once again I will repeat the rule; if you wear clothing designed and made for the opposite sex you are crossdressing!! It really is very simple!! I am a man, born that way!! But I go out in public wearing skirts and other feminine appeal. I look, from the neck up, like the man that I really am!! But all my clothes are feminine! Am I a crossdresser? Of course I am!! I am wearing clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, therefore I am a crossdresser!! It seems some people on this forum just cannot grasp that idea!!

Michelle Obrien, what I said about the OP is exactly what Sandra was talking about. Women who wear pants made for women are NOT crossdressing!! that is what she was talking about, and so was I!!

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I think one of the big issues here is that the debate is almost as much over our individual definitions of the term crossdresser as much as it is about what is or isn't crossdressing. Also, I think for some people "crossdressing" describes an activity where as for others "crossdresser" defines a part of someone's identity. So to some people a woman wearing pants sold for men (which happens frequently enough) is "crossdressing," but that doesn't make her a "crossdresser."

I've never really minded calling what I do crossdressing, because for me, I'd rather get past the semantics of the whole thing and just say, yeah I wear this stuff, and just be accepted for that. Having said that, I'm not really sure if I consider the way I dress 99% of the time I wear women's clothes to be "crossdresing" or not. I just started dating a new girl and when I had the little "so I do this sometimes" talk with her, she mentioned she often wears men's boxers around the house and sometimes wears men's pants to work. If this isn't considered crossdressing, then I don't really think what I do should be either. However if someone were to say "Oh Rye, you're crossdressing today." I sort of have to say to myself, I wear skirts, I wear tights, I wear makeup. As Shananigans would say, I'm a duck.

It's funny, I honestly get as frustrated as Sandra does when people throw the "women crossdress all the time!" argument, because I think it's a false equivalency as well. I also think it doesn't really serve any purpose of moving any sort of flags towards equality. And even within this very thread there's evidence of something I've said many many times, which is that MtF crossdressers for the most part don't seem to really want to change what is or what is acceptable for men to wear, but actually almost seek to reinforce gender stereotypes by insisting one must play the role of a woman in order to wear the clothes women get to wear.

[MichelleOBrien]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

[noeleena]

Hi,

WOW 130 posts hmmm 131 now , & i never said a word... so i wont....no need any way,


...noeleena...

[Pink Person]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.

[JulieK1980]

All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

Absolutely!! I think the ultimate reason this topic is debated so much is because of the denial of this statement. I think many of us refuse to acknowledge that we are in fact transgendered.

[Joanne f]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree.

I disagree for the reason that we have been brought up to believe that clothes are designed for a particular gender to wear and not to create a gender by wearing them , transgender people wear clothes to help identify with their particular gender that they wish to be at a given time , there are many men who just enjoy wearing skirts and do not wish to cross any sort of gender line and also there are some that do face the conundrum of whether it is better to go out just dressed as a male wearing a skirt and top or is it safer to present as a female not necessarily because they need to but because they feel it is safer that way , there are also many women that enjoy wearing a mans shirt or jeans without wishing to or wanting to cross any gender line , this is not an exclusive part of a reason to wear clothes that may have been designed for the opposite gender by women alone as there are men like it as well no were near as may as ones that may have transgender feelings but never the less they are still out there .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree with ReineD. There is no such thing as a cisgender crossdresser. All so-called crossdressers are transgender to some degree. People who claim it's all about the clothes are hilariously out of touch with the truth.

Cisgender people don't dress or behave in significant ways that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Women who wear clothes that are designed for and sold to women are not crossdressers. Women who wear clothes that were designed for men in a manner that doesn't obscure and isn't intended to obscure their cisgender identities are not crossdressers.

Cisgender crossdressers are like unicorns. They exist in your imagination, but not in the real world.

Fantastic...Pink...i love what you are saying....

this is really a 3rd rail topic...

those of you that are trying to pin a label on women have to realize a simple thing.....it's a double standard...females are free to wear WHATEVER and it's not crossdressing unless she is trying to be accepted as male...tell a lesbian gal in crewcut, jeans and flannel she's a crossdresser and you can then enjoy a nice punch in the face..

Calling out gg's for crossdressing is a waste of time...trying to satisfy your own shame and guilt issues by trying to expand labels to others is irrelevant to what is going on in your skirt anyway...

there is nothing at all wrong with crossdressing...if you truly believed this about yourself, then you wouldn't be posting all the contorted logic

[Rianna Humble]

There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP.

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.

she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

[MichelleOBrien]

So let me get this right, Michelle, in your opinion, when Sandra said she was not talking about the fact that women who wear women's trousers/pants are not crossdressing? In your opinion, what was she talking about?

The actual point is in the title of the thread. "We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are". The point was *not* however that women wearing women's pants or men wearing men's skirts are not crossdressing. that's what we call an example.

[Kelly DeWinter]

So are you saying that because I joined this site I have to put up with being called a crossdresser? If so that's a load of crap, I came here to support and offer advice not to be told because I wear trousers/pants made for women that I'm a crossdresser.

Absolutly not, if someone said "Sandra, you are a crossdresser because you wear pants." that would be wrong. No more then when I get asked "Are you gay ?", because I wear earrings. It's a pretty ignorant person who makes general assumptions.
and you are appricated for your support and advice.

I am totally confused, but would only say this. The name of the website is crossdressers.com. I would guess that once here, one cannot judge what they are called.

yes you can, I belong to a Womens Business Networking Group, but it does'nt make me a woman. (although it's crossed my mind a few times to attend enfem)

I am currently wearing a denim skirt and tights (pantyhose for the US). Both of which I bought from a store that does not state whether they are selling men's or women's clothes.

In my opinion, clothes do not have a gender. So crossdressing is never really possible.

What determines whether pants are for women or men? They are always bifurcated (split into two legs) garments.

I think it depends on weather you are presenting as male or female.

That's all fine and good but uh... that wasn't the point of the OP. So... not to be mean, but this feels kinda like...

"Pot to Kettle: you're black"

All the kettles in my kitchen are red, what does that mean ?

[Sue101]

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

Sorry cannot agree with this. Let me explain why.
Everyone says that it is the intent behind wearing the clothes that is the deciding factor. So what is the intent of a woman who buys clothes which are exact copies of male clothes, her version indistinguishable from the male version?

See there is a big difference between a female version and a direct copy. A female version is deliberately styled differently so everyone can tell it is not a male piece of clothing. This used to be the way female pants were made. But for the last twenty odd years all pretence to differentiate has gone. Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes. So again what is the intent? Sure women are not trying to present as a male but clearly they are choosing to wear male clothes which means they are sending out a gender message which at the very least is saying not girly/feminine.

Let me repeat a point I made earlier. Selling male clothes (or copies of male clothes) in female shops does not alter the gender message of the item itself. Making minor adjustments to suit body dimensions does not alter the gender message of the item.

Then we get to the issue of presenting as a member of the opposite sex. We are told that women can wear as many items of male clothing so long as they dont pack a banana and bind their breasts then this is not crossdressing. For this reason those who support this idea always focus soley on crossdressers who emulate women and deliberatly ignore those who do not. But there is more. If the dividing line is presentation then what about a crossdresser who has a beard? No matter how much female regalia he wears the presence of the beard means he cannot be considered as presenting as a female. That is also true if the crossdresser walks like a man, talks like a man etc. If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

Then we get to the sad part. Now we are being told all crossdressers are transgender but many are just in denial. What an ignorant idea. You can wish it that way as much as you wish, it still does not make it true.

I get it society accepted female dressing in male clothes a long time ago. I get it women dont think of such matters themselves. That has no bearing on whether it is crossdressing since this describes a behavior not whether it is considered socially acceptable.

If tomorrow society accepted male crossdressing, we would still be called crossdressers. But in 50 years time we would not be alled that because sufficeint time would have passed that nobody cared anymore. But everyone would still understand that a male choosing to wear female clothes (or copies of) was deliberately alterating his exterior gender message which informs others how he feels about himself and how he wishes to be treated by others.

[ReineD]

Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes.

First, I don't consider the jeans, button-down shirts, and polo shirts purchased in the women's section of Eddie Bauer or women's department stores to be "copies" of male clothes, even if they look similar. The colors are different, there is room for boobs and hips, the shoulders are narrower, and all these things are the biggest differentiation of all, once the clothes are on!

These clothes are now entrenched in feminine styling, and they are solidly women's clothes. NOT COPIES! I'm sorry, but you & other CDers who insist these clothes are men's styles, are simply going to have to step up 70 years and change your outlooks.

If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

Second, your point above: given the choice of male or female construction boots, how many CDers here do you think would choose the women's boots (in 2 sizes up from their men's regular sizes, of course), just because they are women's construction boots and thus look cuter? I've seen threads about this here. If there was a universally accepted man's jean skirt (sorry Karren) that was identital to the skirt found in the women's section except for the cut, which do you think the CDers would purchase, because it makes their hips look more feminine? How many threads have you seen here of CDers who say they can get away with crossdressing at work when they wear women's polo shirts and pants in neutral colors? How many CDers now swear by women's jeans in guy mode, because of the "yummy stretch and softer fabric"?

Women who wear pants & flannel shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing. Men who wear dresses, and women's pants & flannel shirts do. It's as simple as that.

[Lucy_Bella]

Well then..:D

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

Now I can see feathers being ruffled over this thread if folks said to the OP you are a transgender and crossdress ..Big differance..

[ReineD]

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores?