If I am considered a crossdresser what I wear under dresses is a pair of standard men's Hanes briefs. I do have panties but the briefs are more comfortable to me. My breasts don't sag to the point of holding up a pencil so I don't wear or own any bras.
Johanna (John)
John (Legal name)
I think the suggestion that women are cross dressing when they wear pants or a sport coat is just a little silly and rather dishonest. Its not really the clothes, but rather the intent that goes with it. When I get dressed and made up, I am trying to present and "feel" feminine....regardless of how successful I may be.
Denial is the word that comes to mind. It's a way for some to make themselves feel better about what they do. Sort of the same logic some of the Tri-ess groups use when they say "ALL" crossdressers are straight. It's an attempt to minimize what they see in themselves as a flaw.Originally Posted by kimdl93
By the technical definition I suppose the argument could be made that women crossdress when wearing pants, but it's a semantical and highly outdated concept.
Last edited by JulieK1980; 03-22-2011 at 04:22 PM.
If a woman wears men's clothes then she is cross-dressing. The mistake that too many people on this part of the forum make is to claim what when wearing "pants" designed for women and tailored to women's body shape the women are cross-dressing. Even I know that to cross-dress you need to wear the clothing of the opposite gender, so women who wear women's clothes are NOT cross-dressing.
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This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist :facepalm:
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
Hence, why I said outdated.
I have a serious question to those echoing the "I don't dress to present as a woman, I just dress because I like the clothes." Some of you, I know on a personal level...and, I KNOW you wear breast forms. So, uhm, what's up with that? I'm not going to call anyone out...but, I'm just sayin'...you say that you don't want to present as a woman and that you just like the clothes, but you also want to wear makeup and have tits.
I don't get it.
Also, for those of you who are saying that you only wear the clothes but do not want to be seen as a woman...well, then why do you have a woman's name as your user name? If you are angry at others that you are being called a crossdresser or a woman because you are wearing a dress, are posting on a crossdresser site, and have a woman's name as your user name, you need to reevaluate your life.
If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...you can't blame everyone for treating it like a duck.
To the above two quotes...If this was a card game, I'd call bullsh*t on this. Oh, heck, I'll call it anyway. Something tells me that you aren't dressing as a woman because there is a shortage in the number of people wearing nylons and high heels. I challenge you to really think about why you wear womens clothes and makeup and then get back to me and see if it's still because there's a shortage in the number of women doing it.
I DO think that there are men who legitimately want to wear women's clothes and not present as women. But, they aren't the ones in wigs, full-on perfect makeup, and breast forms.
The thing you are choosing not to understand is that these are versions for women. I have a huge crush on Cate Blanchett who does androgyny soooo well
http://cdn.buzznet.com/media-cdn/jj1...wards-2010.jpg
Here she is wearing a "men's suit"...only it's not. It's tailored to the body of a woman to flatter her natural curves. It's shiny and feminine to tailor to the usual feminine taste. She looks sexy in a suit...a symbol of power. She juxtaposes the suit (a symbol of the man and power that has been turned feminine and chic) with high heels (the ultimate feminine accessory). ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT.
Why is she not a crossdresser? Obviously, she is not presenting as a man.
If Cate showed up in a suit that was not tailored for her curves and was wearing boxy, men's flats with no makeup and that same hairstyle...I might venture to say that she is FTM. But, 99% of women that are rocking the men's fashion turned feminine are rocking it AS WOMEN. And, that's the key difference.
I've seen one woman recently in a man's suit and with a manly hairstyle. She had men's shoes and a tie on. She spoke in a deep voice and smoked Cowboy Killers. She also drives the transit shuttle that I take to class and talks to me about football. HIS name is Jim and because it's the beginning of Jim's transition, you are still fairly certain that Jim used to be a woman. However, Jim is a man because he is presenting and acting as a man. Jim has never questioned my gender because I wear track shorts and a sweatshirt to class. I call Jim "sir" he calls "ma'am." There is absolutely no doubt in our mind as to what gender we are portraying ourselves as.
By saying that any woman that puts in a suit (whether it is tailored for a woman or not) is a crossdresser is doing a disservice not only to Jim but to yourself. I think that anyone that is stuck in this "Women wear jeans so they are crossdressers" is delusional. Unless you were a teenager in the 1950s, you can't really talk. Jeans have been a norm for women to wear since I was born...so have androgynous styles. (And, believe me...men of today and of yesterday do the androgyny. Let's take a look at David Bowie http://blog.news-record.com/staff/cu...in%20frock.jpg who my mother had a crush on for years...a peak back into the past). I've never batted an eyelash at jeans when I put them on because I was told that women wear jeans. I wear jeans and I consider myself to be presenting as a woman.
Also, that song has nothing to do with crossdressing. It's about longing and putting on someone's clothing because you want to be a part of them. It greatly diminishes the song just to think she is putting on her lover's clothes to present as a man. She longs to be with him and part of him because she loves him so much. When my friend's wife died, he wore her bathrobe at night. Did he want to wear the bathrobe to appear as a woman? No. It made him feel secure and reminded him of her. To lump it al to crossdressing just by wearing your lover's clothes greatly diminishes the power of the human psyche and the broad spectrum of emotion.
Oh, and btw...if you are still confused...here's Cate Blanchett presenting as a man...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...08_468x308.jpg
Are you still confused? Or, do you see a difference in the two pictures? I THINK THAT I DO!!
Last edited by Shananigans; 03-22-2011 at 07:53 PM. Reason: IMG tags removed, hotlinking photos is not permitted
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
Thank you, Shananigans.. for putting it all into words and examples that anyone should understand this, if they take the time to read it all and with an open mind of it being written in societies/cultural or whatever gage that is used to define acceptance of the norm. Wow, hope I got that last part right.
Anyway, I also want to thank all the others who made an attempt in this same manner.
I do understand the frustrations about such statements (as in the OP) being used in various threads are somewhat invalid as a true defination. I also know that in most cases when used, it was a means to vent a member's frustration of non-acceptance of the 'norm'. Basically, it was a lash out "you accept this but not this" thought process, without the thought of making an incorrect statement.
As great as the response have been to explain this error, there will still be others who will use this type of response as I explained. And it will continue until that cute skirt is accepted by society (well not all societies/cultures since jeans on women are not accepted by everyone, as an example) to be worn by men, women, other..
Marissa
"You better look hard and look twice,
...is that me, baby or just a brilliant disguise?"- The Boss
Sigh ........ I don't get it either, If I knew why I do what I do, why it at times is very important to me, and at other times it's not, then I think half the counselors in the US would be out of business. All I know is that there are time I need the Duck, I have to BE the Duck, I would go quackers if it were'nt for the Duck. Then there is the flocking when I have to get out with the other fowel in my area and flock in formation. Mayby it started with The Donald, the original duck. Was his blue outfit a mini dress ??? I don't know all I know is he had no pants. I'm thinking of trying out for the AFLAC duck, now that that job is open ? Who knows, was I born a goose or a gander ? Mayby it does boil down to who came first the duck or the egg ?
Personally I enjoy it and don't feel a reason to over analyze it unless it causes me or my wife harm.
At least you realize that there is a duck and don't point at other birds with feathers and say, "Hey! They're all ducks too!"
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
someone here has their head screwed on in the right way. i am FTM, when i wear mens' clothing it actually IS mens' clothing, not clothes made for women (except for a few pairs of pants i have - they're unisex because i'm too damn short and the wrong shape to fit most men's tailored pants).
any female-identified woman wearing pants is NOT crossdressing. it's insulting to me and every other FTM when you "gurls" get that wrong ok? at least Phoebe P isn't stupid enough to blame women for what she's doing. a lot of you could learn from that. do i blame women for me being FTM? or men? hell no. there is nothing to blame or point fingers at... those who do are the ones with problems.
[SIZE="3"]~ Androgynous/FTM/Boi ~[/SIZE]
it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved as someone you're not.
Areyan's Blog
"The fool who persists in his folly will become wise" - William Blake
Speechless!( If I can quote Rachel Zoe: "Lit-rally")
All I can say is "Quack."
Ah Kelly. . . Be the duck girl. . .be the duck
I've made that point a few times and I think the distinction in my mind is whether the zipper is in front (e.g. male design, because women have nothing in front that requires a front zip) and whether the zipper flap is on the left (male) or right (female design) and zippers on the side or back. Originally, women's pants had NO front zipper, but when they started wearing jeans, I believe that changed (and I could be wrong about the front zipper as standard). Labels in women's clothing are generally on the left if they are not at the neck (generalization?). Reine pointed out that it was faster with the front zipper but I'm not convinced and there are still a lot of pull-on pants in the women's clothing market. I think to some extent that it is the "masculinization" of women that is behind a lot of women's casual fashion that is modelled on men's clothing. The "boyfriend" clothing, but you never hear of the "girlfriend" clothing for a woman's SO. Curious? there are boyshorts, boyfriend sweaters, etc, ( but there were also women's underwear in the 20's , 30's that were cut like boxers. Actually women should wear boxers and men (who had the need to keep things in place should wear briefs. another oddball of fashion.Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.
Thanks for all your replies
Mary, the harm is exactly that you have likely fooled some male into thinking you were a female and when he finds out, he's both embarrased that he made the mistaken identity and p....d off that you fooled him. So it is going to be one bad time, if the male is big enough to make his hurt felt. clothes have blatant sexual messages attached to them and that is also why crossdressing is not accepted. I've got pretty fair sized breasts and if I went around in a low-cut top with my push-up bra, and otherwise dressed as a male, don't you think I would the s..t kicked out of me by someone who felt lured to my cleavage?
Last edited by ReineD; 03-22-2011 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Merging consecutive posts. Please use the Edit, Quote, or Multiquote buttons.
Well said, DawnMarrie. I think what happened in the 60s though was that everyone wanted to be different, so they ALL wore the same clothing, hairstyles, shoes, etc.. Now they REALLY looked different............ or not. They all looked alike, .......differently.
I will say that I too 'need the duck' at times. I'd give anything to be that all powerful 'shape shifter' in science fiction. When I felt the urge, I'd be 100% female, tip to toe, clothes and all. When I felt the urge to be male, then that's what I'd be. I may 'shift' back and forth a 100 times a day, depending on how I felt.
The fact is, that there are times when I truly wish I were female. Times when I feel sensitive, or helpless, or tearful. Times when I need to be held. At other times, I want to knock a few brews back, and hang out with my buddies............as a guy. Who knows, if the guys were good enough looking when I were in girl mode, I might want to hang out with them............... just to show them I was as good as they were.............or..............Better???
I'd still like to have some nonjudgemental and discreet friends, of any gender identity (CD/GG/TV/TS/B/G/L) who I could hang out with, talk clothes, shoes, jewelry, hairstyles, etc. with. 'Do lunch' with and in general, just have a good time with. Probably asking too much I suppose.
Last edited by CaitlynRenee; 03-22-2011 at 11:48 PM.
I wonder if a duck ever looks at a parrot and wishes they were a parrot as well ? Would it be becuse of the color of their feathers ?
P.S. Shananigans - I have some pinions that need fluffed, your nest or mine ? ROFL !
I have my spandex jeans. They have a front zipper, so that is one male feature. The zipper flap is also in the "male" direction. So that means these shiny skin tight spandex pants are in fact a male garment, eh? So why are they marketed only to women?I've made that point a few times and I think the distinction in my mind is whether the zipper is in front (e.g. male design, because women have nothing in front that requires a front zip) and whether the zipper flap is on the left (male) or right (female design) and zippers on the side or back. Originally, women's pants had NO front zipper, but when they started wearing jeans, I believe that changed (and I could be wrong about the front zipper as standard). Labels in women's clothi
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Parrots are overrated. MY NEST!
Only if you wear it with breast forms, a wig, jewelry, nail polish, heels, and lots of makeup.
Or, call yourself Natasha. (Or, any other arbitrary feminine name).
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
[QUOTE=Shananigans;2445659]Parrots are overrated. MY NEST!
QUOTE]
YOUR nest ! Eeeep ! I'm not sure what I'd be getting into there. What are my choices ?
Can we please keep this on topic, if members want to talk birds and nests then take it to pm.
Sandra
Administrator
I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs
R.I.P Rianna
It was a metaphor for the problem between the crossdressers and the GGs haha. Sorry.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
I have said this too many times already, but I will say it again! Crossdressing is a fashion statement, plain and simple. If you wear clothing designed and made for a sex different from your own, you are crossdressing. SANDRA knows this! She was referring to women who wear pants and tops that are designed and made for women, and are called crossdressers!! They are NOT crossdressers, simply becasue they are wearing clothing that is made for them!!Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what?
I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.
But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:
These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me.
There are a lot of people posting on this thread who, 1. did not really read the OP and 2. don't really know what they are talking about. They are expressing their own opinions, which they are entitled to do, but unfortunately the opinion don't have much to do with actual subject of the thread!
The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
I wasn't aware that it was a fashion statement plain and simple.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
Maybe for a drag queen?
For many of us though it's a tad bit more....
After wading through five pages of reponses to this thread, I'm left with one over riding thought. Who cares!
I have a hypothetical question to whoever...no one answered my first questions, so I don't expect much...
Basically, if a woman buys a pair of pants from the men's section of the store. She wears these pants that are NOT tailored to a woman, but matches these pants with an outfit that has other feminine clothes and accessory. Let's say she wears the men's pants with a lace blouse, a chunky necklace, and stilletos.
I'd say she isn't CDing. She's presenting as a woman.
Now, let's say that a man goes into the store and buys a blouse from the women's department. He wears this flowery blouse with typical male jeans, hiking boots, and a baseball hat. He's presenting as a man, but chose to wear a woman's top.
Is he CDing?
I feel like when we know how we answer this question and WHY we answer it this way then we can understand the OPs post on GGs in jeans, etc.
NOTE: I've only seen one person on this site who wore a skirt with everything else masculine. He said he wasn't a CD...he said he liked skirts. I didn't see any pics of him in breast forms, makeup, or a wig. But, in my hypothetical situation, imagine a man like this. Who chose one female accessory and wore everything else that was masculine. Or, even choses a dress to wear but wears no makeup, no shape enhancers, no wig, no feminine alternate name. It's Joe Bob and he wants to wear a dress. Is he CDing?
If you really waded through 5 pages of responses to the thread, you'd probably come to the conclusion that quite a few people care.
Last edited by Shananigans; 03-23-2011 at 10:08 PM.
"Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
“What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck
